Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polling!!

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Grid girls & pit babes Y or N?

Get rid of them - they aren't necessary
6
5%
Get rid of them - they send the wrong message
18
16%
Keep them - F1 wouldn't be the same without them
17
15%
Keep them - where's the harm?
70
63%
 
Total votes: 111

WiredKiwi
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Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polling!!

Post by WiredKiwi »

I just tripped over the Pit Babes & Grid Girls thread, which I'd never seen before (and never wish t again quite frankly), and given the Susie Wolff discussion that led into the whole gender debate, I was wondering why I hadn't seen an active debate thread on this topic. Apologies if there is one.

My position on grid girls et al is that it is a limited form of prostitution. They are receiving money for the use of their bodies.

When we see how badly messed up Western society is with body image, I'm worried that that past 50 years or so of using 'babes' in advertising (including sports modelling) has helped us arrive at this very twisted place.

Also it appears that any female racing driver feels under serious pressure to do 'glamour' shots - some of the pics I've seen of Susie Wolff for example are little better than soft porn.

I could not imagine a parent willingly exposing their daughter to such an environment, and I wouldn't be surprised if many parents talk their daughters out of racing careers before they hit puberty, when they are susceptible to the meat market atmosphere of motorsport.
Last edited by WiredKiwi on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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MrMuttley
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by MrMuttley »

I don't think it's any more of an anachronism than motorsport itself. A bunch of guys putting themselves in harms way for the entertainment of others. Glorifying the burning of fossil fuels, Worshiping the cult of celebrity and the mighty dollar/pound/rand/euro.

I can tell you one thing for sure. Some of those women are educated and I don't just mean school. I know for a fact there are university educated women among the grid girls. Women with professional careers who do not have to wear spandex with the sponsors logo on to afford the finer things in life.


I say if the people involved are happy with their lot then that's what a free society is all about.
I just tripped over the Pit Babes & Grid Girls thread, which I'd never seen before (and never wish t again quite frankly),
Let me ask you a question then. What did you expect to see in a thread with that title? If you find the objectification of women distasteful why even click on the link?

Jimbox01
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Jimbox01 »

WiredKiwi wrote:I just tripped over the Pit Babes & Grid Girls thread, which I'd never seen before (and never wish t again quite frankly), and given the Susie Wolff discussion that led into the whole gender debate, I was wondering why I hadn't seen an active debate thread on this topic. Apologies if there is one.

My position on grid girls et al is that it is a limited form of prostitution. They are receiving money for the use of their bodies.
...
Don't you think that's a rather offensive thing to say?

You may see them as prostitutes, but they see themselves as Brand Ambassadors.
You think they’re being exploited, but most of them work really hard to build a career in the promotions industry – some of them go on to run their own successful promotions companies / agencies.

If they were unattractive, would you still think they were being exploited?
Is there something wrong with being attractive?
Professional athletes use their bodies to earn a living, are they prostitutes too?

Anyway, if you actually looked past the big buxom blonds, you’d notice that grid girls do actually come in a variety of shapes and sizes, they’re not all super models, most of them are just ordinary people with a bit of makeup and a uniform. Granted you don’t see any that are obese, or markedly unattractive, but then purposely choosing unattractive people to promote your brand is possibly more exploitative than picking someone who just looks ‘nice’.

Siao7
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Siao7 »

Form of Prostitution? Prostitution involves sexual services. I doubt they do that

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I do have an issue with Grid Girls, but it is not the issue of exploitation of the grid girls themselves.

This issue is big in many cultural activities that have historically been seen as male dominated, particularly technology and computer game conventions where you see "booth babes". With the exception of lecherous old men, the people who are most against the removal of booth babes are the models themselves, as it's their job and without it they would be unemployed. They certainly aren't being exploited - maybe in the past (thinking 1970s and earlier) there may have been expectations placed upon them that might push it towards something like you described, but today if someone laid a finger upon them then things would be taken quite seriously, if not by the powers that be, by the press.

The problem with grid girls is the impact it has on female inclusion within the sport. A woman who is not scantily dressed holding up a sign on the grid, or employed as clapping wallpaper to line the driver's path to the podium, or employed to follow her designated driver everywhere with a dictaphone to record everything he says to journalists, stands out a mile in the F1 paddock.

While there is an argument to say that women will never be as physically able to compete with male drivers, that is not the case for any other position in the F1 pitlane. While a female Michael Schumacher may be unlikely, there is nothing stopping a female Adrian Newey existing. Except that the message Formula 1 sends out is not one of female inclusion or female equality.

And the Grid Girls are not the worst example of how Formula 1 utilises women. Every race the driver's path from parc ferme the corridor is lined by an endless line of women mindlessly clapping. Usually standing against a wall, but at Silverstone I saw them used going up some steps as well, essentially being clapping handrails. I can't remember when this started, because I'm sure it didn't happen 20 years ago, but I cringe every time I see it. A large collection of clapping women has become part of the winning driver's prize.

There seems to be a school of thought that Formula 1 is a man's sport that women are choosing to enjoy and as such, by volunteering to watch the sport, they are choosing to accept these aspects as well. They is also an assumption made by many that many or most women who watch Formula 1 only watch because their boyfriend does. These very same arguments are made about women playing computer games.

However, many many women enjoy Formula 1 (and computer games) independently of any male influence. I know men who only follow Formula 1 because their girlfriends watch it. I am fairly certain that all of the female posters on this forum would watch regardless of whether their male friends did or not. What they enjoy about Formula 1 is the racing, the politics, the controversies - you know, the core essence of the sport. That's what Formula 1 is about at the end of the day, they watch despite the fact of the in-your-face sexist dogma that permeates throughout the sport, which instantly makes them a bigger fan than any "I'll get angry if they get of the grid girls" guy who watches the sport. If seeing pretty women while watching F1 is on is important to you, load up some porn on your iPad.

The issue of sexism is taking an ugly turn at the moment. Women who had started to speak up against it have faced incredibly nasty backlashes from men over the Internet. Obviously, there is issue of Caroline Criado-Perez who received a torrent of rape threats for campaigning for female representation on the English Banknotes. However, a much more relevant example is the case of Anita Sarkeesian. She produces a video blog that looks at sexist tropes in films, tv and video games, and after starting a video series looking at sexist in videogames received a tidal wave of abuse, rape threats and threats of violence from male videogamers. Some people even made a website where you could repeatly click on a photo of her face to punch it until it was bloodied. All because she produced a series of videos pointing out that narratives in videogames were heavily laden in sexist tropes and cliches.

She wasn't campaigning for games to be banned, or even certain types of games to be banned, or even games featuring these tropes to be banned. She was just highlighting the continual recycling of these cliches. She was a gamer herself and was campaigning for better writing in videogames. However, because she was a woman, and because she was attacking something male gamers saw as being "part of their culture" (ie, women being scantily dressed, or having stories where you rescue a woman etc etc) they took to the Internet to shout abuse.

While obviously nothing like this has happened in Formula 1, I would bet a lot of money that if a woman was to start a campaign against grid girls, she would experience something similar. Maybe not to the level as seen in with Anita Sarkeesian, but certainly similar to Caroline Criado-Perez. Feminism has become a pejorative term, thanks largely due to the portrayal of straw-feminists in popular culture and some high profile feminist extremists, but also because people think that because it's called "Fem"-inism that means it is "anti-men"

While legislatively we may have got thinks equal between the genders in most Western countries, society often lags far behind the law. Make no mistake, 100 years ago women were far, far from equal. We did used to live in a patriarchal society, and there is still a strong legacy of that lasting today. Think of most movies or TV shows - what percentage of the main cast are male and what percentage are female? Even though our laws say we are equal, our culture is lagging behind.

Formula 1 wants to portray itself as the pinnacle of motorsport. It wants to be seen as this sleek, efficient machine full of the most highly skilled drivers, the most highly trained and disciplined mechanics with the most intelligent designers in the world. Oh, and boobs. That doesn't quite fit, does it?

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Banana Man
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Banana Man »

WiredKiwi wrote:I just tripped over the Pit Babes & Grid Girls thread, which I'd never seen before (and never wish t again quite frankly), and given the Susie Wolff discussion that led into the whole gender debate, I was wondering why I hadn't seen an active debate thread on this topic. Apologies if there is one.

My position on grid girls et al is that it is a limited form of prostitution. They are receiving money for the use of their bodies.

When we see how badly messed up Western society is with body image, I'm worried that that past 50 years or so of using 'babes' in advertising (including sports modelling) has helped us arrive at this very twisted place.

Also it appears that any female racing driver feels under serious pressure to do 'glamour' shots - some of the pics I've seen of Susie Wolff for example are little better than soft porn.

I could not imagine a parent willingly exposing their daughter to such an environment, and I wouldn't be surprised if many parents talk their daughters out of racing careers before they hit puberty, when they are susceptible to the meat market atmosphere of motorsport.
They aren't a limited form of prostitution and I think that is very disrespectful to the women who chose to do it. They are models, employed to promote a brand. There outfits aren't even that bad. There's no nudity involved, aside from some short skirts and low neck lines, they aren't particularly provocative. There are probably hundreds of women sat in the stands watching, showing just as much skin. You will see worse (if that's the word you want to use) on any beach or night club.

This was the grid girl outfit at Hungary. I appreciate there are skimpier outfits out there, like the Monster girls for e.g. but there really isn't anything wrong with it.
Image

Women drivers aren't under pressure to do these photo shoots. If anything they use them o gain an unfair advantage. Nobody would even have heard of Wolff if she hadn't married Toto and done a few modelling photo shoots. She is well within her rights to not do that and gain an F1 drive on pure talent like everyone else but I don't think her particular talent will get her all that far.

Parents wont talk their daughters out of racing careers just because they've seen a couple of grid girls, that's stupid logic. It's like saying they will talk their daughters out of being a journalist because they saw a page 3 girl, or they will talk their daughters out of a career in medicine after watching Naughty Nurses 5.
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WiredKiwi
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by WiredKiwi »

I just tripped over the Pit Babes & Grid Girls thread, which I'd never seen before (and never wish t again quite frankly),
Let me ask you a question then. What did you expect to see in a thread with that title? If you find the objectification of women distasteful why even click on the link?
I thought it might be a discussion about them, like this one. Seeing as a couple of other active threads had been discussing the exact same topic recently, there was a reasonable chance of it being a discussion thread.

SchumieRules wrote:Form of Prostitution? Prostitution involves sexual services. I doubt they do that
so what is being paid for the use of your body (and only your body, no physical or mental skill involved) called then? Doesn't have to involve physical contact.
Jimbox01 wrote:
WiredKiwi wrote:My position on grid girls et al is that it is a limited form of prostitution. They are receiving money for the use of their bodies.
...
Don't you think that's a rather offensive thing to say?

You may see them as prostitutes, but they see themselves as Brand Ambassadors.
You think they’re being exploited, but most of them work really hard to build a career in the promotions industry – some of them go on to run their own successful promotions companies / agencies.
I think they see themselves as having an income. Please do try to prove to me that it is a valid and fulfilling career path, because I posit that there is a better, faster and more likely way of achieving a career in the promotions industry. And that way is called University.

I have nothing against any woman who wishes to be a fashion model, a promotions model, a photography model or any other solely appearance based role. I do have something against any sport or industry that employs men or women solely on looks though. Cheerleaders, dancers etc have a skill, whereas all a grid girl is required to do is fit a skimpy outfit and look attractive. What that says to girls about the worth of education or skills is my main concern.
Jimbox01 wrote:
If they were unattractive, would you still think they were being exploited?
Is there something wrong with being attractive?
Professional athletes use their bodies to earn a living, are they prostitutes too?
Yes. The Elephant Man for eg. was exploited for his appearance.
No.
No - athletes primarily earn their living from a physical skill, not physical appearance.
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runningman67
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by runningman67 »

Don't watch boxing then. The Girls carrying the Round Number boards will make your eyes bleed. 8O

WiredKiwi
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by WiredKiwi »

Banana Man wrote:
WiredKiwi wrote:I just tripped over the Pit Babes & Grid Girls thread, which I'd never seen before (and never wish t again quite frankly), and given the Susie Wolff discussion that led into the whole gender debate, I was wondering why I hadn't seen an active debate thread on this topic. Apologies if there is one.

My position on grid girls et al is that it is a limited form of prostitution. They are receiving money for the use of their bodies.

When we see how badly messed up Western society is with body image, I'm worried that that past 50 years or so of using 'babes' in advertising (including sports modelling) has helped us arrive at this very twisted place.

Also it appears that any female racing driver feels under serious pressure to do 'glamour' shots - some of the pics I've seen of Susie Wolff for example are little better than soft porn.

I could not imagine a parent willingly exposing their daughter to such an environment, and I wouldn't be surprised if many parents talk their daughters out of racing careers before they hit puberty, when they are susceptible to the meat market atmosphere of motorsport.
They aren't a limited form of prostitution and I think that is very disrespectful to the women who chose to do it. They are models, employed to promote a brand. There outfits aren't even that bad. There's no nudity involved, aside from some short skirts and low neck lines, they aren't particularly provocative. There are probably hundreds of women sat in the stands watching, showing just as much skin. You will see worse (if that's the word you want to use) on any beach or night club....

Parents wont talk their daughters out of racing careers just because they've seen a couple of grid girls, that's stupid logic. It's like saying they will talk their daughters out of being a journalist because they saw a page 3 girl, or they will talk their daughters out of a career in medicine after watching Naughty Nurses 5.
Money for use of body with a sexual aspect (even just visually) is...... if not a form of prostitution, well then you tell me?

It's not disrespectful, because I am not disrespecting the person (hey, if someone is offering money for something, it is the individuals right to choose if they do it or not, no matter *what* the job is). I'm disrespecting the job itself because I have no respect for the job. As I also have no respect for political lobbyists, paparazzi and tabloid journalists.

It's not the outfits that bother me tbh, it's the 'money for use of body' exchange. And I can't opt out of seeing them at GPs unless I choose not to actually look at the grid.

I'm saying parents might well be inclined to protect their daughters from the sport, much as some parents protect their daughters from the modelling industry and for the same reasons.
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Siao7
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Siao7 »

WiredKiwi wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:Form of Prostitution? Prostitution involves sexual services. I doubt they do that
so what is being paid for the use of your body (and only your body, no physical or mental skill involved) called then? Doesn't have to involve physical contact.
I don't know, but certainly not prostitution. There's nothing that involves sexual services in it.

Now models are hired for their physical appearance. How do you call them? Is Beckham a prostitute for posing for his perfume ads?

WiredKiwi
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by WiredKiwi »

Alienturnedhuman is my new forum hero. Well reasoned, thoughtful analysis of the subject. Cheers mate :thumbup:
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Banana Man
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Banana Man »

Wired - Where exactly do you think we should draw the line with regards to people looking attractive?

You are apparently opposed to grid girls, so I would therefore assume you are opposed to lads mags like Nuts and page 3 girls. Would porn fall under the same category?

To what extent should women be allowed to look attractive in normal every day life? Should young women going out for a good time in a night club be allowed to wear short skirts and high heels if that's what they want to wear? Does that not promote the objectification of women? Should women wear make up when they go to work? Does it make women look nice or does it just encourage people to judge them on their appearance. How about when women get married, should they be allowed to wear a big white dress? How is a church full of people thinking, 'doesn't the bride look lovely' any different to a race track full of people thinking, 'don't those grid girls look gorgeous?'

The problem is that everyone, both men and women, have differing opinions on what is acceptable. Grid girls will know why they are there, because they look attractive and it promotes the glamourous side of the sport. Nobody is forcing them to do it and any women who don't want to do it don't have to. The race organisers don't walk around Budapest city centre a week before the race and round up all the attractive women with a sheep dog.
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FlyingScot
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by FlyingScot »

Alienturnedhuman - thank you so much for that post. :thumbup: It pretty much sums up everything I feel about grid girls and your points about women and gaming are also things that I can relate to as a female gamer. The point you made about the women lining the corridors and clapping the drivers onto the podium is another one that resonates with me, it just seems so subservient.

As a female, I'm far more interested in hearing from Claire Williams or Monisha Kaltenborn than seeing grid girls. Those two are positive role models for women interested in Formula 1 and show that women can play important roles rather than just being window dressing.

Formula 1 is stuck in a mindset that is old-fashioned and outdated when it comes to women. I've made the point about Monaco before where the focus seems less on the racing and more on the "glamour" which comes in the repeated shots of women in bikinis on the yachts. Of course it's a male-dominated sport, but there are things it could do to become more inclusive and not alienate a particular set of fans.

With regards to the grid girls/promotions girls themselves, I don't believe the individuals themselves are being exploited - after all, they choose to do what they do and I think they enjoy it. But it exploits "women" in the collective by reinforcing these stereotypes that a woman's place in F1 is only to look good and be eye candy for men rather than having a serious role.

Banana Man - I think you're missing the point Wired is trying to make. Nuts and Page 3 are specifically aimed at men and their primary purpose is to showcase naked women. Formula 1's primary purpose is racing. Sex shouldn't come into it at all. And attractiveness doesn't have anything to do with it either. Women are and should be allow to wear what we want. We should be allowed to wear short skirts and high heels without being labelled a slut. But it is our choice to do so, and our decision to make. If female F1 fans want to go and watch the races in short skirts and high heels then that's great. I don't think anybody would deny them that. But when F1 itself showcases grid girls as such, it's almost as if it's giving legitimacy to the idea that "looking good" and baring flesh is the only reason for women to be around in F1. There are no "grid guys." There are no overweight or unattractive grid girls. They all have to wear (usually) skimpy outfits. This is perpetrating the stereotype.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by WiredKiwi »

Banana Man wrote:Wired - Where exactly do you think we should draw the line with regards to people looking attractive?

You are apparently opposed to grid girls, so I would therefore assume you are opposed to lads mags like Nuts and page 3 girls. Would porn fall under the same category?

To what extent should women be allowed to look attractive in normal every day life? '
I can choose not to look at lads mags or porn, but I would object to the F1 printed programme having a pg 3 girl or guy in it because it's not relevant to the activity. F1 is motor racing, so why the meat market?

I am very pro everyone (men and women) dressing up and looking attractive in every day life. That is because they are not being paid to solely be looked at in a sexualised manner. Therefore they can choose how much and what sort of attention they wish to attract, and dress themselves according to that.
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runningman67
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by runningman67 »

WiredKiwi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:Wired - Where exactly do you think we should draw the line with regards to people looking attractive?

You are apparently opposed to grid girls, so I would therefore assume you are opposed to lads mags like Nuts and page 3 girls. Would porn fall under the same category?

To what extent should women be allowed to look attractive in normal every day life? '
I can choose not to look at lads mags or porn, but I would object to the F1 printed programme having a pg 3 girl or guy in it because it's not relevant to the activity. F1 is motor racing, so why the meat market?

I am very pro everyone (men and women) dressing up and looking attractive in every day life. That is because they are not being paid to solely be looked at in a sexualised manner. Therefore they can choose how much and what sort of attention they wish to attract, and dress themselves according to that.
I have to say I agree with you.

e.g Music videos are nearly pornographic. If I want to look at porn I will go on a porn site. If I go on a music video site, I do so for the art and the music.
We are forced fed this stuff. I'm 46, I can sort the issue out in my old head. It's children that must get very confused.

As it has been said......if you watch F1 at the age of 10, what the hell does it say, seeing PitBabes?

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Tyrrellforever »

Get rid of them, they serve no purpose whatsoever.

I watch F1 to hear engines roaring and watch racing (not that that happens much these days), not to look at some girls holding signs.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Banana Man »

Tyrrellforever wrote:Get rid of them, they serve no purpose whatsoever.

I watch F1 to hear engines roaring and watch racing (not that that happens much these days), not to look at some girls holding signs.
They wouldn't be there if they didn't serve a porpoise.

Whilst many of you do not agree with the concept of grid girls, there are an awful lot of men out there (and a few women probably) who find them very attractive and to whom the grid girls add attraction and interest. If you think they have no appeal to anyone, just take a look at the Monaco GP. That track is basically one massive concrete grid girl. The track itself is pointless and crap but the appeal comes from the glamour, the yachts, the casinos, the celebs, the weather, the seaside etc. etc. To this extent the Monaco GP is the corner stone of the GP calendar, it's the icon, the one they all want to win.

I don't really see why people object to them. If you have no interest in them, why would you even notice them? There is one girl stood in front on the car (and a few more hanging around the podium at the end). Why would you look at that one girl holding a post any more than you'd look at Gary with his laptop or Jeff adjusting the brake balance?
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Asphalt_World »

Banana Man wrote:
Tyrrellforever wrote:Get rid of them, they serve no purpose whatsoever.

I watch F1 to hear engines roaring and watch racing (not that that happens much these days), not to look at some girls holding signs.
They wouldn't be there if they didn't serve a porpoise.

Whilst many of you do not agree with the concept of grid girls, there are an awful lot of men out there (and a few women probably) who find them very attractive and to whom the grid girls add attraction and interest. If you think they have no appeal to anyone, just take a look at the Monaco GP. That track is basically one massive concrete grid girl. The track itself is pointless and crap but the appeal comes from the glamour, the yachts, the casinos, the celebs, the weather, the seaside etc. etc. To this extent the Monaco GP is the corner stone of the GP calendar, it's the icon, the one they all want to win.

I don't really see why people object to them. If you have no interest in them, why would you even notice them? There is one girl stood in front on the car (and a few more hanging around the podium at the end). Why would you look at that one girl holding a post any more than you'd look at Gary with his laptop or Jeff adjusting the brake balance?

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Asphalt_World »

To be honest, whilst they may look nice, it's not like they are being photo shopped. makeup yes, nice fitting clothes yes, but no photo shopping. Therefore they are miles behind the glossy magazines as far as showing an impossible image for girls to attempt to achieve.
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Jimbox01 »

FlyingScot wrote: As a female, I'm far more interested in hearing from Claire Williams or Monisha Kaltenborn than seeing grid girls. Those two are positive role models for women interested in Formula 1 and show that women can play important roles rather than just being window dressing.
So now grid girls are stupid as well as being prostitutes! ;)
And why would anyone specifically want to hear from women? Do they have a special insight into F1 than men lack? Do they make the cars go faster or something?

I sincerely hope CW and MK got their jobs on merit, and not for any other reasons, in which case there should be no reason to specifically want to hear what they have to say - unless you're a Williams or Sauber fan. Wanting to hear from them simply because they're women is somewhat sexist if you ask me.

Anyway, if people want to see a more visible female presence in F1 (other than grid girls), then they need to address things at a grassroots level. There's no point trying to shoehorn women into F1 purely for the sake of it, that would do more harm than good.
The FIA The Women & Motor Sport Commission is jolly nice and all that, but they need to reach kids who aren't already involved in the sport, otherwise they're just preaching to the converted.

Finally, I don't know of anyone who follows motorsports because of grid girls, they're just part of the overall veneer, and if they disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the overall enjoyment of the 'sport'. But then whose problem is it really if some people can't see past them and just focus on what's important?

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Jimbox01 »

Asphalt_World wrote:To be honest, whilst they may look nice, it's not like they are being photo shopped. makeup yes, nice fitting clothes yes, but no photo shopping. Therefore they are miles behind the glossy magazines as far as showing an impossible image for girls to attempt to achieve.
Out of interest, Debenhams have banned photoshopped images from their advertising. Not sure it will make that much difference though, you can still make people look far more attractive/glamorous/thin/whatever than they really are - you just need the right makeup, lighting, composition, and lens.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by FlyingScot »

Jimbox01 wrote: So now grid girls are stupid as well as being prostitutes! ;)
Nope, read again, that's not what I said at all. I said they are window dressing, because that is the sole function they have been given in F1. I've no doubt that many of them are intelligent. But they aren't asked for their opinion on the race, are they? They are there for the sole purpose of being looked at. That makes them window dressing, no matter how nice and smart they actually are.
Jimbox01 wrote: And why would anyone specifically want to hear from women? Do they have a special insight into F1 than men lack? Do they make the cars go faster or something? I sincerely hope CW and MK got their jobs on merit, and not for any other reasons, in which case there should be no reason to specifically want to hear what they have to say - unless you're a Williams or Sauber fan. Wanting to hear from them simply because they're women is somewhat sexist if you ask me.
Again, you're twisting my words. I don't want to hear specifically from women. I said of the women present in F1, I'd much rather be hearing from the women in the motorsport side of things than seeing shots of the grid girls.
Jimbox01 wrote: Anyway, if people want to see a more visible female presence in F1 (other than grid girls), then they need to address things at a grassroots level. There's no point trying to shoehorn women into F1 purely for the sake of it, that would do more harm than good.
The FIA The Women & Motor Sport Commission is jolly nice and all that, but they need to reach kids who aren't already involved in the sport, otherwise they're just preaching to the converted.
I agree with this completely. However, it is much more difficult to get young girls interested in the sport if the major female presence is only there to hold up signs and look attractive.

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MistaVega23
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by MistaVega23 »

I'm starting to get sick of the women debate now.

Grid girls are fun to have. They're not harming anyone. Are you Caroline Criado Perez by any chance?
#KeepFightingMichael

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

MistaVega23 wrote:I'm starting to get sick of the women debate now.
No one is forcing you to take part in it.
MistaVega23 wrote:Are you Caroline Criado Perez by any chance?
And it begins.

flyboy10
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by flyboy10 »

MistaVega23 wrote:I'm starting to get sick of the women debate now.

Grid girls are fun to have. They're not harming anyone. Are you Caroline Criado Perez by any chance?
I don't think anyone believes the girls are harming anyone directly - except maybe for themselves. I think it's a sad society where there will be girls thinking, "What great role models! I could aspire to be like them."

One of the counter arguments is that it's the girls' choice so what's it got to do with them what I think? This is not a debate anyone can win. It's justified by all the people involved in it and decried mostly by people who aren't.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Siao7 »

To be fair, if they gave me the chance to sit there and look nice and clap next to the winners in a GP weekend, I'd do it without a second thought!

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Post by flyboy10 »

SchumieRules wrote:To be fair, if they gave me the chance to sit there and look nice and clap next to the winners in a GP weekend, I'd do it without a second thought!
Then you may be seen by some people to be part of the problem. Another issue is, "...the chance to...look nice...".

How many people are born with that chance? It seems like we are in a society that rewards pure luck and randomness. I don't think we should be.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I think this thread should be moved to the main forum as it is discussing the issue of sexism within the sport and could benefit from wider exposure/input. (Whereas the actual Grid Girls thread is just a picture thread, which is why it is in the Off Topic)

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Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:I think this thread should be moved to the main forum as it is discussing the issue of sexism within the sport and could benefit from wider exposure/input. (Whereas the actual Grid Girls thread is just a picture thread, which is why it is in the Off Topic)
Good spot. Maybe inform the mods

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

SchumieRules wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:I think this thread should be moved to the main forum as it is discussing the issue of sexism within the sport and could benefit from wider exposure/input. (Whereas the actual Grid Girls thread is just a picture thread, which is why it is in the Off Topic)
Good spot. Maybe inform the mods
Have done.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Jimbox01 »

FlyingScot wrote:
Jimbox01 wrote: So now grid girls are stupid as well as being prostitutes! ;)
Nope, read again, that's not what I said at all. I said they are window dressing, because that is the sole function they have been given in F1. I've no doubt that many of them are intelligent. But they aren't asked for their opinion on the race, are they? They are there for the sole purpose of being looked at. That makes them window dressing, no matter how nice and smart they actually are.
Jimbox01 wrote: And why would anyone specifically want to hear from women? Do they have a special insight into F1 than men lack? Do they make the cars go faster or something? I sincerely hope CW and MK got their jobs on merit, and not for any other reasons, in which case there should be no reason to specifically want to hear what they have to say - unless you're a Williams or Sauber fan. Wanting to hear from them simply because they're women is somewhat sexist if you ask me.
Again, you're twisting my words. I don't want to hear specifically from women. I said of the women present in F1, I'd much rather be hearing from the women in the motorsport side of things than seeing shots of the grid girls.
Jimbox01 wrote: Anyway, if people want to see a more visible female presence in F1 (other than grid girls), then they need to address things at a grassroots level. There's no point trying to shoehorn women into F1 purely for the sake of it, that would do more harm than good.
The FIA The Women & Motor Sport Commission is jolly nice and all that, but they need to reach kids who aren't already involved in the sport, otherwise they're just preaching to the converted.
I agree with this completely. However, it is much more difficult to get young girls interested in the sport if the major female presence is only there to hold up signs and look attractive.
:) Just kidding (the twisty bits that is), but when someone starts a topic, effectively saying grid girls are prostitiutes and motorsports is a meat market, the whole thread seems a bit twisted and lacking in perspective.

I do however disagree with the idea that grid girls, or any other females involved in promotional work, would be off putting - at least not in terms of potential participation. Are boys put off sports because they see footballers using their sexuality to sell mens knickers or perfume? If kids are at an age where they're even thinking about these things, then it's probably too late anyway.

Also, most people will start off in motorsports at club level, and I think you'd be seriously challenged to find anyone who looks even remotely like a grid girl at the average club meeting, so the idea that you're surrounded by glamorous, scantily clad femalesthe whole time, really is quite a stretch. They're not going to be put off by watching motor racing on TV either, because you never really get to see the grid girls on TV, and even if you do it's only for a few seconds.

Surely the motivation for getting involved in motorsports, either on the sporting or technical side, should be the same for both genders, so why would grid girls make any difference?

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Post by FormulaFun »

what are you smoking? Limited prostitution?

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Jimbox01 wrote:I do however disagree with the idea that grid girls, or any other females involved in promotional work, would be off putting - at least not in terms of potential participation. Are boys put off sports because they see footballers using their sexuality to sell mens knickers or perfume? If kids are at an age where they're even thinking about these things, then it's probably too late anyway.

Also, most people will start off in motorsports at club level, and I think you'd be seriously challenged to find anyone who looks even remotely like a grid girl at the average club meeting, so the idea that you're surrounded by glamorous, scantily clad femalesthe whole time, really is quite a stretch. They're not going to be put off by watching motor racing on TV either, because you never really get to see the grid girls on TV, and even if you do it's only for a few seconds.

Surely the motivation for getting involved in motorsports, either on the sporting or technical side, should be the same for both genders, so why would grid girls make any difference?
The difference between David Beckham selling aftershave and boxershorts is that he is primarily a footballer and seen as David Beckham the footballer. Grid girls are only seen as grid girls.

In fact, 99% of the women in F1 are seen for their 'babe' qualities. Aside from Monisha Kaltenborn, Claire Williams, Susie Wolff and María de Villota I imagine it would be difficult for most people to name, or even have a vague idea, of a woman in the sport. Of course, there are the girls that hold the dictaphones, but my experience has been whenever they have been mentioned on this forum it's been "Does anyone know who that cute girl is who holds the dictaphone for Paul di Resta?" (that is a specific example that springs to mind)

Yes, those four names are the only women who have been involved in F1 in high profile positions within the teams, so how about we turn it on its head. Can anyone think of any men who are involved in the sport solely for their physical appearance? "Team principals" , "Drivers" , "Technical Director" - these are all gender neutral titles, just as we have firefighters instead of firemen we should have Gridfighters instead of Grid Girls and open it to attractive people of either sex.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by FlyingScot »

Jimbox01 wrote: :) Just kidding (the twisty bits that is)
Sorry, I got a bit touchy there :lol:
Jimbox01 wrote: I do however disagree with the idea that grid girls, or any other females involved in promotional work, would be off putting - at least not in terms of potential participation. Are boys put off sports because they see footballers using their sexuality to sell mens knickers or perfume? If kids are at an age where they're even thinking about these things, then it's probably too late anyway.

Also, most people will start off in motorsports at club level, and I think you'd be seriously challenged to find anyone who looks even remotely like a grid girl at the average club meeting, so the idea that you're surrounded by glamorous, scantily clad females the whole time, really is quite a stretch. They're not going to be put off by watching motor racing on TV either, because you never really get to see the grid girls on TV, and even if you do it's only for a few seconds.

Surely the motivation for getting involved in motorsports, either on the sporting or technical side, should be the same for both genders, so why would grid girls make any difference?
I understand your points here, and I accept that the grid girls themselves are not necessarily putting girls off getting into motorsport, but I think they are symptomatic of a mentality that might. (That mentality being that the girls are just there to look good and applaud the men.) I don't really want to bring up Susie Wolff as I think there are a whole bunch of other arguments there that have less to do with gender than who she is married to, but in the documentary about her she was saying about how fellow DTM drivers were a bit more on edge and not wanting to get beaten by her because she was a woman. Which suggests to me a mentality that motorsport a place for men and getting beat by a woman would be embarrassing. Not because she was a better driver in the race, but because she was a woman. Surely that mentality has to filter down somewhat even to the extent of grassroots level?

I've not really been involved with sports myself, but I enjoy both F1 and football very much, and there have been countless times growing up, through high school mainly, where my opinion on something has been dismissed because I'm a girl and I don't know anything about cars/the offside rule/anything outwith the kitchen. And this is just from the perspective of a fan/supporter. So I'd imagine it would be even harder for girls who try to get into a male-dominated sport and are faced with such comments.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by ForTheLoveOfRacing »

If its prostitution then maybe us normal folk in our day to day jobs are prostitutes. We exchange labour/services/skills for money.

My God I'm a hooker!

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls - an anachronism?

Post by MrMuttley »

WiredKiwi wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:Form of Prostitution? Prostitution involves sexual services. I doubt they do that
so what is being paid for the use of your body (and only your body, no physical or mental skill involved) called then? Doesn't have to involve physical contact.
If that is your standard for prostitution then every model male or female of any age (including the infants in the baby formula adverts. ) in any fashion shoot or advert is on the game. Abercrombie and Fitch stores hire them. Department store catalogue etc.

I would also argue that a binman or a general labourer is likewise involved in prostitution as is the guy with the pallet truck moving stuff around a warehouse. we're talking jobs you could teach a responsible child to do in a few minutes here (physical attributes not withstanding)
Last edited by MrMuttley on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by painless »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:The difference between David Beckham selling aftershave and boxershorts is that he is primarily a footballer and seen as David Beckham the footballer.
Are you then suggesting that if the grid girls were famous in some other capacity then that changes the acceptability of the grid girl concept?

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Post by FerrariItalia »

I don't really get why people still talk about this. What is it about grid girls that is so annoying that it needs to be changed? It 's a part of the sport and have been since the start of F1. Don't pay attention to these ridiculously small problems in life, they get paid to do a job and it's just the same as having a job as an actor or model. They make their apperence for a few hours and get paid to do so.

And to the people saying that grid girls are prostitutes. I can't believe how you can be so disrespectful towards women just trying to make a living. If they want to work in this industry, it's their choice. Nobody id forcing and you should respect their choice and not act as their overprotective parents.
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Re: Pit Babes & Grid Girls an anachronism? Now w added polli

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

painless wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:The difference between David Beckham selling aftershave and boxershorts is that he is primarily a footballer and seen as David Beckham the footballer.
Are you then suggesting that if the grid girls were famous in some other capacity then that changes the acceptability of the grid girl concept?
I'm not sure that can be answered as simply as yes or no. But if you want a yes or no answer my answer is no.

David Beckham selling aftershave is different on many levels.

1. It's product endorsement. Female athletes and celebrities also do this. A grid girl is not endorsing anything.

2. Both Beckham advertising aftershave and Grid Girls are there for the purposes of male empowerment. Now this is not to say men can't feel empowered, but when you use a female to empower male sexuality then that has crossed the line to objectification. Now, while we can question the ethics of using the unrealistic goal of a man being like Beckham, the fact is all advertising whether it's for aftershave, an iPhone or a car plays does this.

3. The reason that Beckham came to attention wasn't because he's good looking, it was because of his talent. The perception of a Grid Girl is just someone who stands there and looks pretty.

4. There is a specific, relevant connection between Beckham and the product he is selling. Most men wear aftershave. Most men wear underwear. That connection does not exist with the Grid girl, at best she is there just to draw attention to the car/driver - but most likely she is just there to appear on glamour photo shots to market the sport.

Now, if a famous person was to be employed as a grid girl - well this is unlikely to happen. Even if an A list celebrity was prepared to do it, you could not justify it financially. They would probably cost more than the entire busload of girls they currently ship in cost. But I doubt any serious female celebrity would ever want to do it, because of how demeaning it would be to their public brand.

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Post by Denorth »

if we go this way (a form of prostitution...) than we have to ban many movies as well. Even good ones.

I have one word - prudery. before going to stupid extremes we all need to learn history. When I hear such views I always recall image of a small village where any body image is EVIL, but home violence, underage sex and incest is pretty normal.
We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man

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