The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

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mikeyg123
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:39 pm
I think it's worth remembering that Brawn GP destroyed all opposition due to what was basically a single aero device. A complicated one I grant you, but still a single bit of kit that worked brilliantly and exploited the regulations wonderfully.
Brawn started with an advantage but the gaps were still much smaller than today and Brawn was caught before halfway through the season. The 2009 is probably the tightest season ever. It was so close FI went from tail end Charlies to competing for wins in just one upgrade. Every team apart from STR and Renault fought for a win on legit pace at least once.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Asphalt_World »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:49 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:39 pm
I think it's worth remembering that Brawn GP destroyed all opposition due to what was basically a single aero device. A complicated one I grant you, but still a single bit of kit that worked brilliantly and exploited the regulations wonderfully.
In 2009, the gap between the first and last car in qualifying was regularly 1 second.

In the first half of this season, that was regularly the gap between Mercedes and the nearest non-Mercedes.
As engine equality was being talked about, my point was to show that this simply wasn't the answer to close racing.
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pokerman
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:18 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:09 pm
It still prevents the sport from being as fair as snooker or tennis, in these sports if you lose a match you're out of the tournament, the safety car is wont to be also called the spectacle car however I must admit not as bad in F1 as some actual spec series.

I can fully understand people wanting the cars to be more equal but the best driver actually winning will never have the same level of guarantee as in the likes of snooker or tennis.
There is a far bigger chance of the best driver winning if the cars are equal. That is precisely my point. It doesn’t have to be as equal as snooker to be a fair sport.

In the current situation we are in, the car decides 90% of the outcome. That inevitably leads to comments like the ones from Ronnie O’Sullivan.

I don’t expect Formula 1 to ever become a complete spec series, but the changes made for 2022 are heading in the right direction. I would also like to see an engine freeze and convergence on performance, I’ve heard rumours about that as well.

We are heading in the right direction, it’s just a shame that Hamilton won’t be around for long enough to actually compete against Verstappen or Leclerc on a level playing field.
Without a doubt but like I was saying just let's not kid ourselves that motor racing could ever be as pure a sport as the likes of snooker and tennis to ensure that the best person becomes champion, even in F2, a spec series, the teams are not equal, in Indycars, a spec series, the teams are not equal.

The unfairness of F1 has always been there it's just that Mercedes took it to another level, the game was always for the best drivers to navigate themselves into the best cars, Hamilton has played the game the best and it certainly wasn't given to him, I would say that McLaren never actually gave him the best car or best opportunity, a very good car at times if that's how we judge a car at winning a few races every year.

I'm not really against the equalising which I guess basically comes into place like you say in 2022, I'm sure in the first 7 years of his F1 career Hamilton could have had more success and it's hard to see the Vettel dominance occurring, it seems like a certain degree of dominance was alright but Mercedes just took it too far.

I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
Because the vast majority of teams have no opportunity to improve their engines. It feels unfair for a team to be hobbled by an inferior product they are purchasing.
The differences between engine performance is less than the difference between car performance, I was responding to posts wanting for equality for drivers so the best driver wins, do we really think that in 2022 the cars will be equal?

So now we talk about what's fair for the teams in one specific metric but we don't want spec cars, equal engines didn't prevent a domination event in the past either.

If I look at F2 although there was no domination I see a bigger difference in the performance of teams than I see in F1 engines, in F3 there is clearly a domination by one team.
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mikeyg123
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:18 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:09 pm
It still prevents the sport from being as fair as snooker or tennis, in these sports if you lose a match you're out of the tournament, the safety car is wont to be also called the spectacle car however I must admit not as bad in F1 as some actual spec series.

I can fully understand people wanting the cars to be more equal but the best driver actually winning will never have the same level of guarantee as in the likes of snooker or tennis.
There is a far bigger chance of the best driver winning if the cars are equal. That is precisely my point. It doesn’t have to be as equal as snooker to be a fair sport.

In the current situation we are in, the car decides 90% of the outcome. That inevitably leads to comments like the ones from Ronnie O’Sullivan.

I don’t expect Formula 1 to ever become a complete spec series, but the changes made for 2022 are heading in the right direction. I would also like to see an engine freeze and convergence on performance, I’ve heard rumours about that as well.

We are heading in the right direction, it’s just a shame that Hamilton won’t be around for long enough to actually compete against Verstappen or Leclerc on a level playing field.
Without a doubt but like I was saying just let's not kid ourselves that motor racing could ever be as pure a sport as the likes of snooker and tennis to ensure that the best person becomes champion, even in F2, a spec series, the teams are not equal, in Indycars, a spec series, the teams are not equal.

The unfairness of F1 has always been there it's just that Mercedes took it to another level, the game was always for the best drivers to navigate themselves into the best cars, Hamilton has played the game the best and it certainly wasn't given to him, I would say that McLaren never actually gave him the best car or best opportunity, a very good car at times if that's how we judge a car at winning a few races every year.

I'm not really against the equalising which I guess basically comes into place like you say in 2022, I'm sure in the first 7 years of his F1 career Hamilton could have had more success and it's hard to see the Vettel dominance occurring, it seems like a certain degree of dominance was alright but Mercedes just took it too far.

I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
Because the vast majority of teams have no opportunity to improve their engines. It feels unfair for a team to be hobbled by an inferior product they are purchasing.
The differences between engine performance is less than the difference between car performance, I was responding to posts wanting for equality for drivers so the best driver wins, do we really think that in 2022 the cars will be equal?

So now we talk about what's fair for the teams in one specific metric but we don't want spec cars, equal engines didn't prevent a domination event in the past either.

If I look at F2 although there was no domination I see a bigger difference in the performance of teams than I see in F1 engines, in F3 there is clearly a domination by one team.
Can I ask what benefit is served by disadvantaging teams by forcing them to use a product that is not on par with what some other teams are using?

What do we actually gain from that?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:31 pm
I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
During the V8 era, when the engines were close to spec, the racing was generally much better and the field was closer. This hybrid engine formula has killed competition in Formula 1, that is why I am ok with engine freeze.

Anyway. I am a Verstappen fan, but I never want to see him easily dominate for eons like Hamilton has done with Mercedes. That would be a complete waste of Verstappen’s racing talent. If Max does win titles in the future, I want them to hard fought, not gifted to him. Winning means more if there is actual competition.
It didn't stop the domination of Vettel and Red Bull, Vettel won 13 races in one season, 9 races in a row, was Vettel the best driver, highly debateable?

You're a Verstappen fan frustrated at him not having a fair chance, perfectly understandable, however if you think he lost the last 2 titles because of an inferior engine then your wrong, Hamilton won the 2018 and 2019 titles with an inferior engine.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:18 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:50 pm

There is a far bigger chance of the best driver winning if the cars are equal. That is precisely my point. It doesn’t have to be as equal as snooker to be a fair sport.

In the current situation we are in, the car decides 90% of the outcome. That inevitably leads to comments like the ones from Ronnie O’Sullivan.

I don’t expect Formula 1 to ever become a complete spec series, but the changes made for 2022 are heading in the right direction. I would also like to see an engine freeze and convergence on performance, I’ve heard rumours about that as well.

We are heading in the right direction, it’s just a shame that Hamilton won’t be around for long enough to actually compete against Verstappen or Leclerc on a level playing field.
Without a doubt but like I was saying just let's not kid ourselves that motor racing could ever be as pure a sport as the likes of snooker and tennis to ensure that the best person becomes champion, even in F2, a spec series, the teams are not equal, in Indycars, a spec series, the teams are not equal.

The unfairness of F1 has always been there it's just that Mercedes took it to another level, the game was always for the best drivers to navigate themselves into the best cars, Hamilton has played the game the best and it certainly wasn't given to him, I would say that McLaren never actually gave him the best car or best opportunity, a very good car at times if that's how we judge a car at winning a few races every year.

I'm not really against the equalising which I guess basically comes into place like you say in 2022, I'm sure in the first 7 years of his F1 career Hamilton could have had more success and it's hard to see the Vettel dominance occurring, it seems like a certain degree of dominance was alright but Mercedes just took it too far.

I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
Because the vast majority of teams have no opportunity to improve their engines. It feels unfair for a team to be hobbled by an inferior product they are purchasing.
The differences between engine performance is less than the difference between car performance, I was responding to posts wanting for equality for drivers so the best driver wins, do we really think that in 2022 the cars will be equal?

So now we talk about what's fair for the teams in one specific metric but we don't want spec cars, equal engines didn't prevent a domination event in the past either.

If I look at F2 although there was no domination I see a bigger difference in the performance of teams than I see in F1 engines, in F3 there is clearly a domination by one team.
Can I ask what benefit is served by disadvantaging teams by forcing them to use a product that is not on par with what some other teams are using?

What do we actually gain from that?
Traditionally F1, apart from a brief spell, has never been about spec engines or spec cars, your argument about it only being fair that teams have spec engines is for me little different from the drivers should have spec cars.

I'm sure my initial reply was to a poster saying that all the material should be the same so that the best driver wins.

Edit: Also I repeat there are bigger performance differences in the cars than the engines but somehow only spec'ing the engines gives us a deserved champion, as for the teams I don't care who wins as a standalone.
Last edited by pokerman on Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikeyg123
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:18 pm

Without a doubt but like I was saying just let's not kid ourselves that motor racing could ever be as pure a sport as the likes of snooker and tennis to ensure that the best person becomes champion, even in F2, a spec series, the teams are not equal, in Indycars, a spec series, the teams are not equal.

The unfairness of F1 has always been there it's just that Mercedes took it to another level, the game was always for the best drivers to navigate themselves into the best cars, Hamilton has played the game the best and it certainly wasn't given to him, I would say that McLaren never actually gave him the best car or best opportunity, a very good car at times if that's how we judge a car at winning a few races every year.

I'm not really against the equalising which I guess basically comes into place like you say in 2022, I'm sure in the first 7 years of his F1 career Hamilton could have had more success and it's hard to see the Vettel dominance occurring, it seems like a certain degree of dominance was alright but Mercedes just took it too far.

I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
Because the vast majority of teams have no opportunity to improve their engines. It feels unfair for a team to be hobbled by an inferior product they are purchasing.
The differences between engine performance is less than the difference between car performance, I was responding to posts wanting for equality for drivers so the best driver wins, do we really think that in 2022 the cars will be equal?

So now we talk about what's fair for the teams in one specific metric but we don't want spec cars, equal engines didn't prevent a domination event in the past either.

If I look at F2 although there was no domination I see a bigger difference in the performance of teams than I see in F1 engines, in F3 there is clearly a domination by one team.
Can I ask what benefit is served by disadvantaging teams by forcing them to use a product that is not on par with what some other teams are using?

What do we actually gain from that?
Traditionally F1, apart from a brief spell, has never been about spec engines or spec cars, your argument about it only being fair that teams have spec engines is for me little different from the drivers should have spec cars.

I'm sure my initial reply was to a poster saying that all the material should be the same so that the best driver wins.
In the modern history of F1 a team could much more easily move around engine suppliers in order to find a better one. These days if a team happens to get stuck with a subpar engine they basically can't be competitive. Things have changed. F1 has never been like this in any other era so it's just rubbish to say it's always been like this so it always has to be. Again, F1 has never been like this before.

I ask again. What is actually gained by this? Why is it a good thing?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

From my experience, the only people who don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the current state of Formula 1 are Hamilton fans.

Of course, if your favourite driver is the one who is reaping all the benefits from a highly uncompetitive sport, you are more likely to defend it. That’s just human nature.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:59 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:31 pm
I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
During the V8 era, when the engines were close to spec, the racing was generally much better and the field was closer. This hybrid engine formula has killed competition in Formula 1, that is why I am ok with engine freeze.

Anyway. I am a Verstappen fan, but I never want to see him easily dominate for eons like Hamilton has done with Mercedes. That would be a complete waste of Verstappen’s racing talent. If Max does win titles in the future, I want them to hard fought, not gifted to him. Winning means more if there is actual competition.
It didn't stop the domination of Vettel and Red Bull, Vettel won 13 races in one season, 9 races in a row, was Vettel the best driver, highly debateable?
The second half of 2013 represents one-sixteenth or 6.25% of the total V8 era. That was an outlier, not the norm. The V8 era was overall far more competitive than the V6 era, that’s not even remotely debatable.
You're a Verstappen fan frustrated at him not having a fair chance, perfectly understandable, however if you think he lost the last 2 titles because of an inferior engine then your wrong, Hamilton won the 2018 and 2019 titles with an inferior engine.
Verstappen is not Vettel and Red Bull is not Ferrari, so that’s not a relevant argument. I have zero sympathy for Vettel by the way, that guy had way more WDC opportunities than his talent deserved. Although in his defence, unlike Bottas or Rubens, he actually took most of them.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

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pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm
Edit: Also I repeat there are bigger performance differences in the cars than the engines but somehow only spec'ing the engines gives us a deserved champion, as for the teams I don't care who wins as a standalone.
The engine is to the team (for a non-works team) as the car is to the driver. They have little if any control over it, but their competitive fate is partially (largely or not, depending on the season) determined by it.

The current situation with engines is even worse, with Red Bull highlighting the reason. Note that I have nothing against the actual current engines; I'm a supporter of the hybrid technology. The problem is that they are far too complex for anything but a major commitment from a major manufacturer to tackle. That puts a disproportionate amount of power in the court of the manufacturers, and makes it impossible for a team to have any true control over their own engine if they are not a manufacturer. It's quite impossible to bring in a new supplier at short notice.

There's also a very obvious difference between spec engines and spec cars: the F1 regulations require that every team designs their own car. However, only three teams -- Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault -- design their own engine. For the majority of the grid, it's already a part they buy from a third party.

Additionally, there has been a period (and a lengthy one!) in which every team on the grid except for Ferrari used the same engine -- the Cosworth DFV. As such, it's clear from a historical standpoint that the 'DNA' of F1 is not negatively impacted by engine parity.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:29 pm


Because the vast majority of teams have no opportunity to improve their engines. It feels unfair for a team to be hobbled by an inferior product they are purchasing.
The differences between engine performance is less than the difference between car performance, I was responding to posts wanting for equality for drivers so the best driver wins, do we really think that in 2022 the cars will be equal?

So now we talk about what's fair for the teams in one specific metric but we don't want spec cars, equal engines didn't prevent a domination event in the past either.

If I look at F2 although there was no domination I see a bigger difference in the performance of teams than I see in F1 engines, in F3 there is clearly a domination by one team.
Can I ask what benefit is served by disadvantaging teams by forcing them to use a product that is not on par with what some other teams are using?

What do we actually gain from that?
Traditionally F1, apart from a brief spell, has never been about spec engines or spec cars, your argument about it only being fair that teams have spec engines is for me little different from the drivers should have spec cars.

I'm sure my initial reply was to a poster saying that all the material should be the same so that the best driver wins.
In the modern history of F1 a team could much more easily move around engine suppliers in order to find a better one. These days if a team happens to get stuck with a subpar engine they basically can't be competitive. Things have changed. F1 has never been like this in any other era so it's just rubbish to say it's always been like this so it always has to be. Again, F1 has never been like this before.

I ask again. What is actually gained by this? Why is it a good thing?
I'm not sure the teams could merely get their hands on the best engine unless most were magically the same, nominally the teams often had an engine solely for their own use, some farmed out engines that were very much B spec, while others had to take engines from privateer engine manufacturers.

I think you might find the performances differences are actually closer today and if you want to define Mercedes has having the best engine well 40% of the grid will have that engine next year also these aren't the B spec engines of the past.

I'm sure that in years gone by Ferrari often had the best engine, they often prided themselves on that, but good look on any major rival being supplied by them and any teams they did supply would not get the same spec.

Why is it a good thing?

I only question what parameters of F1 people want to change, I want engine parity because the driver I support doesn't have the best engine, we don't want spec cars because that's not F1 but we want spec engines because that will make F1 better for the teams.

I don't care about the teams only the drivers, the biggest parameter to driver performances are the cars not the engines yet it's more important to equalise the engines, I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm
I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
Really? Last year, practically the only thing anyone talked about was how overpowered Ferrari's engine was. Just about anyone who wasn't a Ferrari fan was questioning it and calling for it to be investigated right from the beginning.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:32 pm
From my experience, the only people who don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the current state of Formula 1 are Hamilton fans.

Of course, if your favourite driver is the one who is reaping all the benefits from a highly uncompetitive sport, you are more likely to defend it. That’s just human nature.
It's exactly that and it's also vice versa try and take away any performance advantage you see from a rival and then say it's better for the sport but just happening to also ignore the uncompetitive nature of the cars, but the driver you happen to support is in a good car and it just might tilt things in his favour to better take advantage.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:59 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:31 pm
I am a bit curious about the outrage over spec cars but spec engines are alright, this again I think is a bit of Mercedes paranoia that they are guaranteed the best engine, it's alright for a driver to be disadvantaged with an inferior car but not an inferior engine which I've always found a bit strange when historically the biggest advantage you could lay at the cars.
During the V8 era, when the engines were close to spec, the racing was generally much better and the field was closer. This hybrid engine formula has killed competition in Formula 1, that is why I am ok with engine freeze.

Anyway. I am a Verstappen fan, but I never want to see him easily dominate for eons like Hamilton has done with Mercedes. That would be a complete waste of Verstappen’s racing talent. If Max does win titles in the future, I want them to hard fought, not gifted to him. Winning means more if there is actual competition.
It didn't stop the domination of Vettel and Red Bull, Vettel won 13 races in one season, 9 races in a row, was Vettel the best driver, highly debateable?
The second half of 2013 represents one-sixteenth or 6.25% of the total V8 era. That was an outlier, not the norm. The V8 era was overall far more competitive than the V6 era, that’s not even remotely debatable.
You're a Verstappen fan frustrated at him not having a fair chance, perfectly understandable, however if you think he lost the last 2 titles because of an inferior engine then your wrong, Hamilton won the 2018 and 2019 titles with an inferior engine.
Verstappen is not Vettel and Red Bull is not Ferrari, so that’s not a relevant argument. I have zero sympathy for Vettel by the way, that guy had way more WDC opportunities than his talent deserved. Although in his defence, unlike Bottas or Rubens, he actually took most of them.
Yet Vettel managed to win 4 titles in a row using an equalised engine, Hamilton won 2 titles with an inferior engine how was that possible?
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:46 pm

The differences between engine performance is less than the difference between car performance, I was responding to posts wanting for equality for drivers so the best driver wins, do we really think that in 2022 the cars will be equal?

So now we talk about what's fair for the teams in one specific metric but we don't want spec cars, equal engines didn't prevent a domination event in the past either.

If I look at F2 although there was no domination I see a bigger difference in the performance of teams than I see in F1 engines, in F3 there is clearly a domination by one team.
Can I ask what benefit is served by disadvantaging teams by forcing them to use a product that is not on par with what some other teams are using?

What do we actually gain from that?
Traditionally F1, apart from a brief spell, has never been about spec engines or spec cars, your argument about it only being fair that teams have spec engines is for me little different from the drivers should have spec cars.

I'm sure my initial reply was to a poster saying that all the material should be the same so that the best driver wins.
In the modern history of F1 a team could much more easily move around engine suppliers in order to find a better one. These days if a team happens to get stuck with a subpar engine they basically can't be competitive. Things have changed. F1 has never been like this in any other era so it's just rubbish to say it's always been like this so it always has to be. Again, F1 has never been like this before.

I ask again. What is actually gained by this? Why is it a good thing?
I'm not sure the teams could merely get their hands on the best engine unless most were magically the same, nominally the teams often had an engine solely for their own use, some farmed out engines that were very much B spec, while others had to take engines from privateer engine manufacturers.

I think you might find the performances differences are actually closer today and if you want to define Mercedes has having the best engine well 40% of the grid will have that engine next year also these aren't the B spec engines of the past.

I'm sure that in years gone by Ferrari often had the best engine, they often prided themselves on that, but good look on any major rival being supplied by them and any teams they did supply would not get the same spec.

Why is it a good thing?

I only question what parameters of F1 people want to change, I want engine parity because the driver I support doesn't have the best engine, we don't want spec cars because that's not F1 but we want spec engines because that will make F1 better for the teams.

I don't care about the teams only the drivers, the biggest parameter to driver performances are the cars not the engines yet it's more important to equalise the engines, I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:39 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm
Edit: Also I repeat there are bigger performance differences in the cars than the engines but somehow only spec'ing the engines gives us a deserved champion, as for the teams I don't care who wins as a standalone.
The engine is to the team (for a non-works team) as the car is to the driver. They have little if any control over it, but their competitive fate is partially (largely or not, depending on the season) determined by it.

The current situation with engines is even worse, with Red Bull highlighting the reason. Note that I have nothing against the actual current engines; I'm a supporter of the hybrid technology. The problem is that they are far too complex for anything but a major commitment from a major manufacturer to tackle. That puts a disproportionate amount of power in the court of the manufacturers, and makes it impossible for a team to have any true control over their own engine if they are not a manufacturer. It's quite impossible to bring in a new supplier at short notice.

There's also a very obvious difference between spec engines and spec cars: the F1 regulations require that every team designs their own car. However, only three teams -- Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault -- design their own engine. For the majority of the grid, it's already a part they buy from a third party.

Additionally, there has been a period (and a lengthy one!) in which every team on the grid except for Ferrari used the same engine -- the Cosworth DFV. As such, it's clear from a historical standpoint that the 'DNA' of F1 is not negatively impacted by engine parity.
For those that care about the teams regarding engines, regarding the F1 regs in respect to the cars got changed in the past so there is precedent to change it again, engine equality for teams doesn't equate to car equality for the drivers.

Going back to the DFV's there was no engine equalisation so either Ferrari or the rest of the teams were disadvantaged at one point or another.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:16 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm
I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
Really? Last year, practically the only thing anyone talked about was how overpowered Ferrari's engine was. Just about anyone who wasn't a Ferrari fan was questioning it and calling for it to be investigated right from the beginning.
Were people asking for engine equalisation though?

Regarding Mercedes I think you will find both Renault and Honda were quite happy how they matched up to it.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:55 pm


Can I ask what benefit is served by disadvantaging teams by forcing them to use a product that is not on par with what some other teams are using?

What do we actually gain from that?
Traditionally F1, apart from a brief spell, has never been about spec engines or spec cars, your argument about it only being fair that teams have spec engines is for me little different from the drivers should have spec cars.

I'm sure my initial reply was to a poster saying that all the material should be the same so that the best driver wins.
In the modern history of F1 a team could much more easily move around engine suppliers in order to find a better one. These days if a team happens to get stuck with a subpar engine they basically can't be competitive. Things have changed. F1 has never been like this in any other era so it's just rubbish to say it's always been like this so it always has to be. Again, F1 has never been like this before.

I ask again. What is actually gained by this? Why is it a good thing?
I'm not sure the teams could merely get their hands on the best engine unless most were magically the same, nominally the teams often had an engine solely for their own use, some farmed out engines that were very much B spec, while others had to take engines from privateer engine manufacturers.

I think you might find the performances differences are actually closer today and if you want to define Mercedes has having the best engine well 40% of the grid will have that engine next year also these aren't the B spec engines of the past.

I'm sure that in years gone by Ferrari often had the best engine, they often prided themselves on that, but good look on any major rival being supplied by them and any teams they did supply would not get the same spec.

Why is it a good thing?

I only question what parameters of F1 people want to change, I want engine parity because the driver I support doesn't have the best engine, we don't want spec cars because that's not F1 but we want spec engines because that will make F1 better for the teams.

I don't care about the teams only the drivers, the biggest parameter to driver performances are the cars not the engines yet it's more important to equalise the engines, I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.
Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:06 pm

Traditionally F1, apart from a brief spell, has never been about spec engines or spec cars, your argument about it only being fair that teams have spec engines is for me little different from the drivers should have spec cars.

I'm sure my initial reply was to a poster saying that all the material should be the same so that the best driver wins.
In the modern history of F1 a team could much more easily move around engine suppliers in order to find a better one. These days if a team happens to get stuck with a subpar engine they basically can't be competitive. Things have changed. F1 has never been like this in any other era so it's just rubbish to say it's always been like this so it always has to be. Again, F1 has never been like this before.

I ask again. What is actually gained by this? Why is it a good thing?
I'm not sure the teams could merely get their hands on the best engine unless most were magically the same, nominally the teams often had an engine solely for their own use, some farmed out engines that were very much B spec, while others had to take engines from privateer engine manufacturers.

I think you might find the performances differences are actually closer today and if you want to define Mercedes has having the best engine well 40% of the grid will have that engine next year also these aren't the B spec engines of the past.

I'm sure that in years gone by Ferrari often had the best engine, they often prided themselves on that, but good look on any major rival being supplied by them and any teams they did supply would not get the same spec.

Why is it a good thing?

I only question what parameters of F1 people want to change, I want engine parity because the driver I support doesn't have the best engine, we don't want spec cars because that's not F1 but we want spec engines because that will make F1 better for the teams.

I don't care about the teams only the drivers, the biggest parameter to driver performances are the cars not the engines yet it's more important to equalise the engines, I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.
Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:17 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:32 pm
From my experience, the only people who don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the current state of Formula 1 are Hamilton fans.

Of course, if your favourite driver is the one who is reaping all the benefits from a highly uncompetitive sport, you are more likely to defend it. That’s just human nature.
It's exactly that and it's also vice versa try and take away any performance advantage you see from a rival and then say it's better for the sport but just happening to also ignore the uncompetitive nature of the cars, but the driver you happen to support is in a good car and it just might tilt things in his favour to better take advantage.
I don’t understand the mentality of Hamilton fans who enjoy these pointless Mercedes parades. I have to ask them: are you a fan of the sport or just Lewis Hamilton? Will you even be watching the sport when he retires or will you move on with him?

I am a huge Verstappen fan, but if he ever ended up in a dominant team for 8 years with a Perez/Bottas level driver as his teammate, while Leclerc and Russell were stuck in mediocre machinery, I would probably quit watching the sport. His success would feel hollow and meaningless.

I would far rather have Verstappen win 4 or 5 world titles in a highly competitive era. Winning is a lot more meaningful if you have actual competition.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by overgeared »

Has he signed yet? Or is Russell taken the seat?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:42 am
I would far rather have Verstappen win 4 or 5 world titles in a highly competitive era. Winning is a lot more meaningful if you have actual competition.
Highly competitive is little to do with an engine freeze, despite your repeated protestations that Mercedes dominance is only down to the engine when they are clearly the best F1 team that has ever been assembled, winning even with only the equal fastest car in 2018 and for much of 2019.

Mercedes have nailed two massive regulation changes in 2014 and 2017 and are strong favourites to be on top after the 2022. They have one of the most productive mindsets from top to bottom without political interference. They have made the Todt-Brawn-Byrne-De Montezemolo axis sustainable and reaped the rewards.

Red Bull were extremely reliant on Adrian Newey innovations which always left them vulnerable to rule changes to make them less competitive. In 2013, it took Mercedes one season of investment to leapfrog McLaren and Ferrari and they stopped development before the summer break. The W04 is proof Mercedes were well on the way to supremacy in the V8 era and that was the foundation for their huge success in 2014. Aldo Costa's favourite Mercedes car in his career is the W04 for that very reason.

I doubt you will ever stop parroting your overly simplistic line because it allows you to belittle Mercedes and Hamilton's achievements. I suspect that Mercedes will be competitive for as long as they maintain investment and the current creative risk-taking culture at Brackley and Brixworth.
overgeared wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:13 am
Has he signed yet? Or is Russell taken the seat?
Are you still talking about this? You sound like a broken record right now. You'll get a perfect opportunity to say "I told you so" if your fantasy actually becomes reality.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

F1Tyrant you are arguing with a straw-man, not me.

I never said that Mercedes are only dominant because of engine power. They obviously have a phenomenal chassis as well.

However, with spec engines, there is no doubt that Red Bull would have challenged for at least a couple of world titles.

Therefore the engine regulations are a big reason why the 2014-2021 era is the least competitive era in history.

Mercedes have won 8 consecutive world titles and 80% of the races since 2014, but keep deluding yourself into thinking that is normal.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:33 pm
However, with spec engines, there is no doubt that Red Bull would have challenged for at least a couple of world titles.
Agreed, I also think under a 2013 rules freeze even Newey would have had trouble stopping this Mercedes team from winning titles.

It's really personal taste whether you want the performance differentiator to be aerodynamics, driver aids, engines or tyres. Personally, I think having flexibility in the aerodynamics and engineering departments is closer to the core philosophy of F1. The tyre war and 2012 comedy tyres added unpredictability but I don't think it was an accurate reflection of driver ability or car design.
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:33 pm
Therefore the engine regulations are a big reason why the 2014-2021 era is the least competitive era in history.
New engine regulations do create dominant cars and that has been the norm in F1 history: 1952 (Ferrari), 1955 (Mercedes), 1961 (Ferrari), 1966 (Brabham), 1986 (Williams -> McLaren) and 2014 (Mercedes).

What's unprecedented is the token system stifling engine development (although I feel the cost cap will help in this regard in the future) and that Mercedes nailed the second aero revolution in 2017. Very rarely have a team managed to sustain dominance through two regulation changes.

Image
Source: F1Metrics

However, as this image above suggests the aerodynamic changes create plentiful dominance as well. The one factor that decreases dominance is rule stability and it seems that since there was little on the Mercedes cars that could be banned (DAS nonwithstanding), F1 is determined to plough ahead with another revolution in 2022 and merely maintain or swap the dominant team.

Hopefully, stability in the post-2022 regulations for about 6 years should yield a competitive field.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

I disagree with your conclusion. In recent times the big reg changes 2014, 2009, 2005, 1998 and 1994 have given us much closer fields. 2009 being the closest field ever, 2005 ended the Ferrari dominance and 98 and 94 both ending Williams dominance. Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that. The theory of convergence has always been a myth. Largely because F1 is full of positive feedback loops.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:01 pm
I disagree with your conclusion. In recent times the big reg changes 2014, 2009, 2005, 1998 and 1994 have given us much closer fields. 2009 being the closest field ever, 2005 ended the Ferrari dominance and 98 and 94 both ending Williams dominance. Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that. The theory of convergence has always been a myth. Largely because F1 is full of positive feedback loops.
This is very true. The huge differential in prize money distribution is why in the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The top teams attract more sponsors, the rich teams attract the best engineers, and the gulf continues to increase. Right now, the difference in resources and manpower between Mercedes and Haas is so large that it’s borderline impossible for Haas to compete with Mercedes even if the rules were changed.

In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.

That is one of the main reasons why I do not believe that any team will ever dominate like Mercedes 2014-2021 ever again.

This is both good and bad news for Hamilton. The good news is that the records he will set will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him drive will use Mercedes dominance to diminish his accomplishments and hype up the future superstars who win championships on a level playing field.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:01 pm
Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that.
Absolutely not. The article I linked actually shows the opposite.

Image
Source: F1Metrics

Obviously there are much smaller sample sizes for the longer rule cycles but from 1950-2015, convergence theory has largely been true.
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.
Financial spending has never guaranteed success in F1. The top spending team has only won the WCC about 40% of the time. Toyota and BMW spent fortunes in the early 2000s for a single win and some pole positions.
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
This is both good and bad news for Hamilton. The good news is that the records he will set will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him drive will use Mercedes dominance to diminish his accomplishments and hype up the future superstars who win championships on a level playing field.
Hamilton's records might be more easily broken in a more level playing field where four drivers consistently win 5 races a year. A career from 18-38 at 5 wins a year would put a driver in Hamilton's ballpark.

Anyone who re-watches 2008 or 2018 will see that he prevailed in a field with multiple teams competing for the title and arguably over both seasons he had a small car disadvantage relative to Ferrari.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:19 am

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.
Financial spending has never guaranteed success in F1. The top spending team has only won the WCC about 40% of the time. Toyota and BMW spent fortunes in the early 2000s for a single win and some pole positions.
Yes, some big spenders messed up. However, the crucial question is: how often has a low-budget team, i.e. not among the top 3 spenders, won the titles in the last 20-30 years?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:35 am
However, the crucial question is: how often has a low-budget team, i.e. not among the top 3 spenders, won the titles in the last 20-30 years?
Aside from Brawn, pretty much no constructor has done enough to win the WCC without spending the mean team budget.

Image
Source: F1Metrics

Rather ironically, Mercedes in 2014 is the standout performer in terms of points per spend.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:44 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:35 am
However, the crucial question is: how often has a low-budget team, i.e. not among the top 3 spenders, won the titles in the last 20-30 years?
Aside from Brawn, pretty much no constructor has done enough to win the WCC without spending the mean team budget.

Image
Source: F1Metrics

Rather ironically, Mercedes in 2014 is the standout performer in terms of points per spend.
Aside from the 2014 rule change though for recent years this just doesn't pass the sniff test.

2016 had more domination than 2017, 2009 was closer than 2008, 2005 was closer than 2004, 1997 to 98 probably similar, 94 was closer than 93 and 89 was closer than 98.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:53 am
Aside from the 2014 rule change though for recent years this just doesn't pass the sniff test.
I think you quoted the wrong graph but anyway, perhaps the graph is led astray by the period of low dominance between 1966 and 1981.

All I'll say is that the 2022 rule change may not be the competitive panacea all F1 fans hope to see. Be careful what you wish for and all that...
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:11 pm


In the modern history of F1 a team could much more easily move around engine suppliers in order to find a better one. These days if a team happens to get stuck with a subpar engine they basically can't be competitive. Things have changed. F1 has never been like this in any other era so it's just rubbish to say it's always been like this so it always has to be. Again, F1 has never been like this before.

I ask again. What is actually gained by this? Why is it a good thing?
I'm not sure the teams could merely get their hands on the best engine unless most were magically the same, nominally the teams often had an engine solely for their own use, some farmed out engines that were very much B spec, while others had to take engines from privateer engine manufacturers.

I think you might find the performances differences are actually closer today and if you want to define Mercedes has having the best engine well 40% of the grid will have that engine next year also these aren't the B spec engines of the past.

I'm sure that in years gone by Ferrari often had the best engine, they often prided themselves on that, but good look on any major rival being supplied by them and any teams they did supply would not get the same spec.

Why is it a good thing?

I only question what parameters of F1 people want to change, I want engine parity because the driver I support doesn't have the best engine, we don't want spec cars because that's not F1 but we want spec engines because that will make F1 better for the teams.

I don't care about the teams only the drivers, the biggest parameter to driver performances are the cars not the engines yet it's more important to equalise the engines, I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.
Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....
In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

[fbvid][/fbvid]
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm

I'm not sure the teams could merely get their hands on the best engine unless most were magically the same, nominally the teams often had an engine solely for their own use, some farmed out engines that were very much B spec, while others had to take engines from privateer engine manufacturers.

I think you might find the performances differences are actually closer today and if you want to define Mercedes has having the best engine well 40% of the grid will have that engine next year also these aren't the B spec engines of the past.

I'm sure that in years gone by Ferrari often had the best engine, they often prided themselves on that, but good look on any major rival being supplied by them and any teams they did supply would not get the same spec.

Why is it a good thing?

I only question what parameters of F1 people want to change, I want engine parity because the driver I support doesn't have the best engine, we don't want spec cars because that's not F1 but we want spec engines because that will make F1 better for the teams.

I don't care about the teams only the drivers, the biggest parameter to driver performances are the cars not the engines yet it's more important to equalise the engines, I'm just a bit sceptical about what drives this and maybe I just have a bad memory but there didn't seem to be the same concern last year, then Mercedes make a big step for this year.
So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.
Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....
In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:42 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:17 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:32 pm
From my experience, the only people who don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the current state of Formula 1 are Hamilton fans.

Of course, if your favourite driver is the one who is reaping all the benefits from a highly uncompetitive sport, you are more likely to defend it. That’s just human nature.
It's exactly that and it's also vice versa try and take away any performance advantage you see from a rival and then say it's better for the sport but just happening to also ignore the uncompetitive nature of the cars, but the driver you happen to support is in a good car and it just might tilt things in his favour to better take advantage.
I don’t understand the mentality of Hamilton fans who enjoy these pointless Mercedes parades. I have to ask them: are you a fan of the sport or just Lewis Hamilton? Will you even be watching the sport when he retires or will you move on with him?

I am a huge Verstappen fan, but if he ever ended up in a dominant team for 8 years with a Perez/Bottas level driver as his teammate, while Leclerc and Russell were stuck in mediocre machinery, I would probably quit watching the sport. His success would feel hollow and meaningless.

I would far rather have Verstappen win 4 or 5 world titles in a highly competitive era. Winning is a lot more meaningful if you have actual competition.
I repeat Mercedes are not winning because of their engine, I wish I could find the power figures for 2019.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:42 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:17 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:32 pm
From my experience, the only people who don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the current state of Formula 1 are Hamilton fans.

Of course, if your favourite driver is the one who is reaping all the benefits from a highly uncompetitive sport, you are more likely to defend it. That’s just human nature.
It's exactly that and it's also vice versa try and take away any performance advantage you see from a rival and then say it's better for the sport but just happening to also ignore the uncompetitive nature of the cars, but the driver you happen to support is in a good car and it just might tilt things in his favour to better take advantage.
I don’t understand the mentality of Hamilton fans who enjoy these pointless Mercedes parades. I have to ask them: are you a fan of the sport or just Lewis Hamilton? Will you even be watching the sport when he retires or will you move on with him?

I am a huge Verstappen fan, but if he ever ended up in a dominant team for 8 years with a Perez/Bottas level driver as his teammate, while Leclerc and Russell were stuck in mediocre machinery, I would probably quit watching the sport. His success would feel hollow and meaningless.

I would far rather have Verstappen win 4 or 5 world titles in a highly competitive era. Winning is a lot more meaningful if you have actual competition.
By the way I've been watching F1 for nearly 40 years so I would class myself as a F1 fan, I would guess years of watching the sport in part has me asking why are certain things now considered to be not fair?
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

overgeared wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:13 am
Has he signed yet? Or is Russell taken the seat?
Given he's just 2 days short of being out of contract it wouldn't surprise me if he has signed but given the current climate he doesn't want his contract to be revealed.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:01 pm
I disagree with your conclusion. In recent times the big reg changes 2014, 2009, 2005, 1998 and 1994 have given us much closer fields. 2009 being the closest field ever, 2005 ended the Ferrari dominance and 98 and 94 both ending Williams dominance. Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that. The theory of convergence has always been a myth. Largely because F1 is full of positive feedback loops.
This is very true. The huge differential in prize money distribution is why in the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The top teams attract more sponsors, the rich teams attract the best engineers, and the gulf continues to increase. Right now, the difference in resources and manpower between Mercedes and Haas is so large that it’s borderline impossible for Haas to compete with Mercedes even if the rules were changed.

In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.

That is one of the main reasons why I do not believe that any team will ever dominate like Mercedes 2014-2021 ever again.

This is both good and bad news for Hamilton. The good news is that the records he will set will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him drive will use Mercedes dominance to diminish his accomplishments and hype up the future superstars who win championships on a level playing field.
I think this is just your version of how both Mercedes and Hamilton will be remembered, I've not seen one driver ranking that places Verstappen above Hamilton.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
[fbvid][/fbvid]
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:36 pm


So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.
Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....
In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?
I'm not interested in teams I'm only interested in the drivers like I believe you are, It's curious the concern for the teams or perhaps for Red Bull and their driver, I have to wonder when F1 was ever a level playing field?

That doesn't mean F1 has to remain the same and a closing of the performance has to be seen as a good thing, but Mercedes aren't always winning because of the engine, not in 2018 and certainly in 2019 then the engine was no factor at all but Red Bull were nowhere and for me it's beyond doubt that Mercedes had the best car in 2020.

Like I said before engine parity is not that simple and Mercedes got taken down that rabbit hole before with Renault coming out laughing taking advantage of their right to catch up, you can read this in what Wolff had to say on the matter.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:13 pm
I think this is just your version of how both Mercedes and Hamilton will be remembered, I've not seen one driver ranking that places Verstappen above Hamilton.
Hamilton at the moment is analogous to Schumacher from around 2004. Nobody rated Alonso higher than him at the time. Fast forward a couple years to when he had been beaten, and people started to show up rating Alonso (or Raikkonen, at the time) higher.

Fast forward now more than a decade, and while Schumacher is still universally rated quite highly there is a very substantial number who don't rate him as #1 anymore.

That's the sort of progression you'd be looking at with Hamilton as well. Nobody rates Verstappen above him yet, because Max hasn't won anything. But there's a good chance he -- or Leclerc, or Russell, or someone we don't even know about yet -- will win plenty after Hamilton retires, and will in time be rated at a similar level or even higher.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
[fbvid][/fbvid]
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:36 pm


So just a load of bluster followed by some bizarre persecution complex about Hamilton. No reasons why having varying engine performance is desirable at all.

And yes, you do have an incredibly short memory.
Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....
In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?
Mercedes won with an inferior engine in 2019, was it not 60hp down on the Ferrari, which teams were taken out of contention these past 2 seasons. Mercedes had no advantage to speak of in 2019 on the engine front, let's see how competitive McLaren are next year with the Mercedes engine, Racing Point only did so much better this year because they basically copied the Mercedes car.

All year long all I've had to hear are the deficiencies of the Red Bull car but they got beat because of the engine?
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