Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:12 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:10 pm
Schumi was by FAR the biggest piece in the puzzle in the Ferrari dynasty... Compare that to - The Mercedes Engine is by FAR the biggest piece in the puzzle in the Mercedes dynasty.. Tell me I'm wrong!
F1 has always been about car and engine advantages, Schumacher always needed at least the second best car to be Champion, most of the time he had either the best or equal best car. Without such advantages Schumacher wouldn't have had the success he had, was he not the most advantaged driver before Hamilton came along?

Then to the thread itself, Hamilton may have had better cars but Schumacher had weaker contemporaries.
I've never thought the "but Schumacher had the best car" argument has ever really made sense and here's why...

If everyone had driven equal cars between 1992 and 2006 would Schumacher have won more or less than 7 titles? I think he would have won more.

Throughout his career car discrepancies cost him more titles than they won him.
I wouldn't disagree with that but then we're looking at how strong Schumacher's contemporaries were and like you say at the end of the day even Schumacher needed at least the second best car to be champion.

When I look at Hamilton I'm sure Hamilton could have won more titles than one from 2007-2013 with equal cars/teams, with his one lap pace he certainly would have had far more pole positions putting him in prime position to win races.
I don't think Hamilton has 7 titles if everyone has equal cars between 2007 and 2020. But that's just my opinion. I can't substantiate that.
Of course we can't say but given equal opportunity I see him easily winning 3 titles from 2007-2013 that's with him not only having an equal car but full backing from McLaren which he only got in 2008 and 2009, something always afforded to Schumacher at Ferrari, they would never have paired Schumacher with a reigning world champion and of course Hamilton started out against a 2 time and reigning world champion, Hamilton rarely had the luxury of the team being behind him.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by PF1 Mod Team »

While most of the discussion has been on topic, and well behaved - some of the posts have started to drift towards targeting the poster more than challenging their argument, and several posts have been reported by third parties for this.

In the interests of keeping the discussion going, and not excluding any of the participants, we are going to draw a line in the sand here and say from this point on keep your posts about the subject matter (Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries) and not engage in any more personal baiting.

It's possible to fundamentally disagree with someone and keep it civilised.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by WHoff78 »

[quote="mikeyg123
I don't think Hamilton has 7 titles if everyone has equal cars between 2007 and 2020. But that's just my opinion. I can't substantiate that.[/quote]

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by WHoff78 »

Or at least, more titles than the others. 50% hit rate is probably unlikely for anyone with equal cars.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team.
Everyone warned him that McLaren was Hamilton's team but Whitmarsh made him personal assurances that it wasn't as Button stated in his BTG interview. They then bent over backwards to ensure they had equality to the detriment of maximising the results of the lead driver.

I'd argue that Hamilton's relationship with McLaren deteriorated because Button made the team his. Despite beating Button in 2010, the team stayed loyal to Button rather than maximising Hamilton's chances a la 2008-2009.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:40 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team.
Everyone warned him that McLaren was Hamilton's team but Whitmarsh made him personal assurances that it wasn't as Button stated in his BTG interview. They then bent over backwards to ensure they had equality to the detriment of maximising the results of the lead driver.

I'd argue that Hamilton's relationship with McLaren deteriorated because Button made the team his. Despite beating Button in 2010, the team stayed loyal to Button rather than maximising Hamilton's chances a la 2008-2009.
We often hear that, but how did Button make the team "his" exactly?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:45 am
We often hear that, but how did Button make the team "his" exactly?
By being the likeable leader he's always been. He charmed McLaren and won them over.

In comparison, Hamilton was always what McLaren wanted him to be. He suppressed his personality rather than being true to himself. McLaren saw him as the apprentice as a result and Hamilton was tiddled as he felt stifled and the team didn't see he was the better driver.

Ultimately, Hamilton's insecurity destroyed his relationship with McLaren.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:45 am
We often hear that, but how did Button make the team "his" exactly?
By being the likeable leader he's always been. He charmed McLaren and won them over.

In comparison, Hamilton was always what McLaren wanted him to be. He suppressed his personality rather than being true to himself. McLaren saw him as the apprentice as a result and Hamilton was tiddled as he felt stifled and the team didn't see he was the better driver.

Ultimately, Hamilton's insecurity destroyed his relationship with McLaren.
Agreed, Button is a nice, likeable chap.

But how did they suppress his personality? This is a genuine question, I can't think of examples as to how they treated him as an apprentice, something we hear a lot. They did not give Alonso preferential treatment in 2007, something he was asking throughout and led to that relationship being soured. They got him Kova as a team mate to make him a clear No1 and a car to win the WDC in 2008. They sacrificed a member of the team at the liegate scandal. Even when Button joined, he got half the money that Hamilton did.

I do agree with the last sentence.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:37 am
But how did they suppress his personality? This is a genuine question, I can't think of examples as to how they treated him as an apprentice, something we hear a lot.
Ron is a pathological control freak and wanted his drivers as marketable as possible. I mean look at Alonso in 2007 with that short hair, he never wore it like that since and I guarantee that was Ron's doing. He wanted the first black driver in F1 to be as marketable as possible. Short back and sides. Squeaky clean.

I reckon Hamilton didn't have the freedom to pursue his interests and was obliged focus exclusively on racing. Told to keep his mouth shut about racism for fear of pushing sponsors away. Nicole Scherzinger was probably his only escape from any of that and their relationship problems in 2011 gave him nowhere to express his authentic self.

I mean look at him now, wearing dreads Marley would be proud of, exploring his other interests freely, being an activist for race equality. Hamilton has a confidence and a swagger he never ever had at McLaren.

To me, it's night and day.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 11:24 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:37 am
But how did they suppress his personality? This is a genuine question, I can't think of examples as to how they treated him as an apprentice, something we hear a lot.
Ron is a pathological control freak and wanted his drivers as marketable as possible. I mean look at Alonso in 2007 with that short hair, he never wore it like that since and I guarantee that was Ron's doing. He wanted the first black driver in F1 to be as marketable as possible. Short back and sides. Squeaky clean.

I reckon Hamilton didn't have the freedom to pursue his interests and was obliged focus exclusively on racing. Told to keep his mouth shut about racism for fear of pushing sponsors away. Nicole Scherzinger was probably his only escape from any of that and their relationship problems in 2011 gave him nowhere to express his authentic self.

I mean look at him now, wearing dreads Marley would be proud of, exploring his other interests freely, being an activist for race equality. Hamilton has a confidence and a swagger he never ever had at McLaren.

To me, it's night and day.
I like your posts mate, but this is a bit off. Some serious accusations there, do we know about these for fact? Like being told to shut up about racism???

Hamilton had his hair short in Mercedes as well, check pics from his early seasons. Hamilton also raced with his huge diamond ear rings at Macca. It doesn't really mean anything, even if Dennis had them wearing it short.

He does look more confident nowadays, but is it down to being oppressed at McLaren or just that he's grown older and more self confident?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am
Some serious accusations there, do we know about these for fact? Like being told to shut up about racism???
Okay, perhaps nobody vocalised that sentiment at McLaren but in the period of 2007-2012 racism was not treated as a serious issue at all. The uproar about Hamilton's Ali G remarks at Monaco show how unwelcome any hint at purvasive racism was treated by the establishment at the time.

Hamilton was notably silent on the issue and I do think the stifling, overbearing professional demands at McLaren played a role. Hamilton was unwilling to rock the boat much about anything and the both time he did (I include Spa 2012), he backed down instantly.
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am
Hamilton had his hair short in Mercedes as well, check pics from his early seasons. Hamilton also raced with his huge diamond ear rings at Macca. It doesn't really mean anything, even if Dennis had them wearing it short.

He does look more confident nowadays, but is it down to being oppressed at McLaren or just that he's grown older and more self confident?
Hamilton carried a lot of psychological baggage from McLaren in 2013. He was still playing by the Ron Dennis professional archetype IMO.

Maturity is obviously a big factor in this and Hamilton always struck me as the kind of Michael Jackson-esque prodigy that missed his childhood due to his future ambitions. Perhaps it was a factor in his maturity as a confident human being delayed into his late 20s but Ron Dennis espoused the worst charactertistics of any helicopter parent and I can't absolve him of all responsibility for the situation.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Well Hamilton was rapidly going bald until he got hair plugs (something else he lies about, weirdly) - I'm pretty sure wearing his hair short was a result of that more than anything else. Having said that, I do remember reading that Ron Dennis at McLaren was exactly the sort of micro-manager who would mandate particular hairstyles within the team, so it wouldn't really surprise me if that part is true.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Your comment here perfectly summarizes the issue I have with Hamilton (and his fans) - the relentless persecution complex. Nobody *gave* Schumacher anything - whichever team he was in, he made it his own due to his personality and work ethic. In contrast, even the Mercedes team has gone on record saying Hamilton was like a mercenary when he joined them (not McLaren - the Mercedes team).

If you're unable to understand the difference after 30-odd pages, it is likely you never will.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:45 am
We often hear that, but how did Button make the team "his" exactly?
By being the likeable leader he's always been. He charmed McLaren and won them over.

In comparison, Hamilton was always what McLaren wanted him to be. He suppressed his personality rather than being true to himself. McLaren saw him as the apprentice as a result and Hamilton was tiddled as he felt stifled and the team didn't see he was the better driver.

Ultimately, Hamilton's insecurity destroyed his relationship with McLaren.
It was quite recent when Hamilton said he just wasn't listened to at McLaren it was always a case of them knowing best, it's a complete different scenario at Mercedes were he feels he has the ability to lead the team.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:37 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:45 am
We often hear that, but how did Button make the team "his" exactly?
By being the likeable leader he's always been. He charmed McLaren and won them over.

In comparison, Hamilton was always what McLaren wanted him to be. He suppressed his personality rather than being true to himself. McLaren saw him as the apprentice as a result and Hamilton was tiddled as he felt stifled and the team didn't see he was the better driver.

Ultimately, Hamilton's insecurity destroyed his relationship with McLaren.
Agreed, Button is a nice, likeable chap.

But how did they suppress his personality? This is a genuine question, I can't think of examples as to how they treated him as an apprentice, something we hear a lot. They did not give Alonso preferential treatment in 2007, something he was asking throughout and led to that relationship being soured. They got him Kova as a team mate to make him a clear No1 and a car to win the WDC in 2008. They sacrificed a member of the team at the liegate scandal. Even when Button joined, he got half the money that Hamilton did.

I do agree with the last sentence.
There was a change of leadership at McLaren, Ron stood down for Whitmarsh, one of the first points of call for Whitmarsh was to sign Button a driver that Ron never rated, I think it's fair to say that Whitmarsh had a vested interest in Button doing well and to that end Button would never be called upon to assist Hamilton in a title challenge if ever it was needed, I would be looking in particular at 2012.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:04 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am
Some serious accusations there, do we know about these for fact? Like being told to shut up about racism???
Okay, perhaps nobody vocalised that sentiment at McLaren but in the period of 2007-2012 racism was not treated as a serious issue at all. The uproar about Hamilton's Ali G remarks at Monaco show how unwelcome any hint at purvasive racism was treated by the establishment at the time.

Hamilton was notably silent on the issue and I do think the stifling, overbearing professional demands at McLaren played a role. Hamilton was unwilling to rock the boat much about anything and the both time he did (I include Spa 2012), he backed down instantly.
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am
Hamilton had his hair short in Mercedes as well, check pics from his early seasons. Hamilton also raced with his huge diamond ear rings at Macca. It doesn't really mean anything, even if Dennis had them wearing it short.

He does look more confident nowadays, but is it down to being oppressed at McLaren or just that he's grown older and more self confident?
Hamilton carried a lot of psychological baggage from McLaren in 2013. He was still playing by the Ron Dennis professional archetype IMO.

Maturity is obviously a big factor in this and Hamilton always struck me as the kind of Michael Jackson-esque prodigy that missed his childhood due to his future ambitions. Perhaps it was a factor in his maturity as a confident human being delayed into his late 20s but Ron Dennis espoused the worst charactertistics of any helicopter parent and I can't absolve him of all responsibility for the situation.
Come on, maybe the establishment was not as "woke" as today, but lets be clear, his Monaco comment had nothing to do with bringing up a sensitive social issue such as racism; it was a failed attempt (in red mist of course) to play the race card as an excuse for being wronged. It was terrible really, he was trying to blame the stewards of being racist instead of looking in the mirror about his own driving that brought the penalties in Monaco. Instead of being punished he got forgiven, rubbing salt to the wound.

As for the hair, maybe it is trivial, but I think that his look just before he joined the team in 2006 was terrible (check it out, he was losing his hair and sporting an afro that really did not suit him). He got hair transplant (or change in products as he said) at some point and then started growing it when his hairline grew back. I think it was possibly down to that, rather than Macca stifling his style.

We may need to steer away from Hamilton's hairstyles though in order to avoid being off topic.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:26 pm
It was terrible really, he was trying to blame the stewards of being racist instead of looking in the mirror about his own driving that brought the penalties in Monaco. Instead of being punished he got forgiven, rubbing salt to the wound.
It was a bad example. I distinctly remember in that era of a general feeling that "racism had been solved" due to Obama's election. I really think Hamilton's current talking points of structural racism causing a lack of representation of a broad range of ethnicities in F1 wouldn't have been welcome in that era at all.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:45 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:26 pm
It was terrible really, he was trying to blame the stewards of being racist instead of looking in the mirror about his own driving that brought the penalties in Monaco. Instead of being punished he got forgiven, rubbing salt to the wound.
It was a bad example. I distinctly remember in that era of a general feeling that "racism had been solved" due to Obama's election. I really think Hamilton's current talking points of structural racism causing a lack of representation of a broad range of ethnicities in F1 wouldn't have been welcome in that era at all.
You are possibly right, but it's a what if scenario I guess. It was a weird time, I also remember the "the best rapper is white, the best golfer is black, world's upside down" sentiment. I agree that an issue like that gathered much more traction nowadays than it would have back then. It probably helps that Hamilton has a higher status than back then I guess

pokerman
Posts: 37593
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Your comment here perfectly summarizes the issue I have with Hamilton (and his fans) - the relentless persecution complex. Nobody *gave* Schumacher anything - whichever team he was in, he made it his own due to his personality and work ethic. In contrast, even the Mercedes team has gone on record saying Hamilton was like a mercenary when he joined them (not McLaren - the Mercedes team).

If you're unable to understand the difference after 30-odd pages, it is likely you never will.
A mercenary perhaps because of the way he was treated at McLaren which changed because of the way he was treated at Mercedes?

In the last third of the 2012 season McLaren had the fastest car yet it was in this period that Hamilton decided to walk out on the team, just some kind of persecution complex maybe?

In respect to Schumacher everything was laid out for him to be successful at Ferrari, Hamilton recognised that was not the case at McLaren and left.
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Siao7
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Your comment here perfectly summarizes the issue I have with Hamilton (and his fans) - the relentless persecution complex. Nobody *gave* Schumacher anything - whichever team he was in, he made it his own due to his personality and work ethic. In contrast, even the Mercedes team has gone on record saying Hamilton was like a mercenary when he joined them (not McLaren - the Mercedes team).

If you're unable to understand the difference after 30-odd pages, it is likely you never will.
No, everything was laid out for Schumacher and he was treated like a king. I heard sometimes he didn't even have to race, Stig did it for him, he was just in his trailer reading his newspaper... All that by the team that ultimately dumped him? Wait, what?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by myattitude »

pokerman wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:41 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:12 pm

F1 has always been about car and engine advantages, Schumacher always needed at least the second best car to be Champion, most of the time he had either the best or equal best car. Without such advantages Schumacher wouldn't have had the success he had, was he not the most advantaged driver before Hamilton came along?

Then to the thread itself, Hamilton may have had better cars but Schumacher had weaker contemporaries.
I've never thought the "but Schumacher had the best car" argument has ever really made sense and here's why...

If everyone had driven equal cars between 1992 and 2006 would Schumacher have won more or less than 7 titles? I think he would have won more.

Throughout his career car discrepancies cost him more titles than they won him.
I wouldn't disagree with that but then we're looking at how strong Schumacher's contemporaries were and like you say at the end of the day even Schumacher needed at least the second best car to be champion.

When I look at Hamilton I'm sure Hamilton could have won more titles than one from 2007-2013 with equal cars/teams, with his one lap pace he certainly would have had far more pole positions putting him in prime position to win races.
I don't think Hamilton has 7 titles if everyone has equal cars between 2007 and 2020. But that's just my opinion. I can't substantiate that.
Of course we can't say but given equal opportunity I see him easily winning 3 titles from 2007-2013 that's with him not only having an equal car but full backing from McLaren which he only got in 2008 and 2009, something always afforded to Schumacher at Ferrari, they would never have paired Schumacher with a reigning world champion and of course Hamilton started out against a 2 time and reigning world champion, Hamilton rarely had the luxury of the team being behind him.
This is at odds with Ferrari backing Irvine to win the 1999 WDC to the point of ordering Schumacher back in the car to aid Irvine's bid.

And "reigning world champion" is a very narrow window and misses the point. Since 1999, they chose the best drivers available to partner Schumacher, first with Rubens and then with Kimi, both of whom in their primes and better than Button. This narrative of Schumacher being given easy teammates is false. Ferrari put Ferrari first and always has, it's just that Schumacher was their best bet for success and so he lead/drove the team.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
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Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
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A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:58 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Your comment here perfectly summarizes the issue I have with Hamilton (and his fans) - the relentless persecution complex. Nobody *gave* Schumacher anything - whichever team he was in, he made it his own due to his personality and work ethic. In contrast, even the Mercedes team has gone on record saying Hamilton was like a mercenary when he joined them (not McLaren - the Mercedes team).

If you're unable to understand the difference after 30-odd pages, it is likely you never will.
A mercenary perhaps because of the way he was treated at McLaren which changed because of the way he was treated at Mercedes?

In the last third of the 2012 season McLaren had the fastest car yet it was in this period that Hamilton decided to walk out on the team, just some kind of persecution complex maybe?

In respect to Schumacher everything was laid out for him to be successful at Ferrari, Hamilton recognised that was not the case at McLaren and left.
Do you even hear yourself at times? The mods do ask to stay on topic, but you just repeating yourself with zero introspection doesn't further the conversation in any manner.

I simply can't take you seriously on this - yeah it isn't a persecution complex, everyone was and is out to get Hamilton, they put gremlins to work to make Rosberg champion in 2016 - while in Schumacher's case I heard they even had the self-driving technology already in place so he didn't even need to race the car.

A.J.
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 1:03 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:34 pm

I think this is a fair comment, but I think the biggest factor in this would be that it has taken much longer for Hamilton to realise just how important it is to have the teams backing, and the importance of the internal team politics. Perhaps some of that has stemmed from beating a two time world champion in his first season, and having the self-belief that he’ll beat anyone in the same car and he doesn’t need favoritism. I think he now very much realizes that preferential treatment in the team is not just about beating your team mate but also about beating the leading driver of the other teams. Put everyone in equal cars for their careers, then at the start Alonso probably comes out on top, because Hamilton is fighting with his team mate to much, but once the teams figure out the cars are equal and they just have to beat the other top drivers, then I bet Hamilton still comes out with a similar number of titles. He has the pace and the consistency if he is given a stable environment and support of the team. Hamilton will always get the backing from the team if they are in a two/three way fight and titles are on the line. He has too much pace for Alonso, and to much quality for someone like Vettel in the Red Bull. Verstappen is more of a discussion.
I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Your comment here perfectly summarizes the issue I have with Hamilton (and his fans) - the relentless persecution complex. Nobody *gave* Schumacher anything - whichever team he was in, he made it his own due to his personality and work ethic. In contrast, even the Mercedes team has gone on record saying Hamilton was like a mercenary when he joined them (not McLaren - the Mercedes team).

If you're unable to understand the difference after 30-odd pages, it is likely you never will.
No, everything was laid out for Schumacher and he was treated like a king. I heard sometimes he didn't even have to race, Stig did it for him, he was just in his trailer reading his newspaper... All that by the team that ultimately dumped him? Wait, what?
If my grandma was given everything the way Schumacher was she'd be a 9x WDC. Poor grandma, just not given that same level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.

Siao7
Posts: 9473
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:55 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 1:03 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:15 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am


I'm not 100% sure this is the case. Hamilton did have a very respectable title bid in 2012, when his relationship with his team and co-pilot was at it's supposed worst. He just had to get his sh*t together frankly after 2011. And to his credit, he did; not many people would bounce back like that, he managed it beautifully.

But you are right that it took him a while to figure out that a good relationship with the team is paramount. Everyone warned Jenson that he was entering "team Lewis", the lion's den. I credit Button with showing him that he's not the best thing after sliced bread and no one is above the team. We saw many nasty radio exchanges in that period, when things weren't going his way. We see a change at Mercedes compared to his Macca stint, he is much more respectful of the team nowadays.

In an equal cars fight I disagree that he would show them all, just like that. That would be when the team would make the difference, if everything else is the same. Every driver would need the team behind them to make that little bit of difference, so I would say it depends. Hamilton Merc era would most likely nail it, Hamilton Macca era, not so sure that it would be plain sail. You can argue that it's a bit of chicken and egg, a poor Macca car brought the winging that soured the relationship, so take that out of the equation and we have a happy Hamilton.

But then again we had 2007 and 2015-16...
Button never went into the lions den, the red carpet was laid out for him from day 1, it was a statement that it wasn't Hamilton's team and Hamilton wouldn't have the full backing of the team something that was given to Schumacher at Ferrari and Alonso at Ferrari, it makes so much difference.

Another thing as you mention with McLaren and could he actually have achieved more titles with an equal car and you make a good point, McLaren were a organisational shambles, one reason why Hamilton left the team. When you look at Schumacher even when he had a poorish car Ferrari were so well organised and would maximise his results giving him great reliability and not making operational errors.

Ultimately McLaren never gave Hamilton the level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Your comment here perfectly summarizes the issue I have with Hamilton (and his fans) - the relentless persecution complex. Nobody *gave* Schumacher anything - whichever team he was in, he made it his own due to his personality and work ethic. In contrast, even the Mercedes team has gone on record saying Hamilton was like a mercenary when he joined them (not McLaren - the Mercedes team).

If you're unable to understand the difference after 30-odd pages, it is likely you never will.
No, everything was laid out for Schumacher and he was treated like a king. I heard sometimes he didn't even have to race, Stig did it for him, he was just in his trailer reading his newspaper... All that by the team that ultimately dumped him? Wait, what?
If my grandma was given everything the way Schumacher was she'd be a 9x WDC. Poor grandma, just not given that same level of opportunity that Ferrari gave Schumacher.
Sorry to hear!

WHoff78
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by WHoff78 »

Regardless of drivers, I think Merc learned a thing or two from the previous spells of dominance. They have managed there resources/effort to win by a smaller margin in certain instances, and maintain a pretty healthy competition internally between the two drivers when they do have a more dominant car. I do think this has prolonged there advantage at the top. Ultimately this cost Hamilton a title to Rosberg due to reliability, but it has also arguably bought him a shot at more titles in the long run, so these things have balanced out. Definitely credit there to Mercedes. I know some will disagree, but this is for me this is made all the more possible by Hamilton's ability as well. He certainly has his faults, but he also rises to most challenges over time.

Siao7
Posts: 9473
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.
Schumacher not wanting to come back was because he still felt pain on his leg, in the testing he did prior to his return. At least that is what he said at the time, the metal plate was pressing on a nerve and until it was removed it was causing great discomfort. But what happened to him wasn't just a broken leg. He broke both bones and they had to insert a metal plate on his leg. Right from the beginning the prognosis was that he would be out for 12-16 weeks, which is was in line with his return timeline (3 months). The story about the football has been questioned a lot, but in reality we will never know exactly. It is certainly not inconceivable that he wanted some peace and quiet, especially knowing how much pressure was on his shoulders for the title with every passing year. Maybe even he couldn't bear seeing Irvine winning the title instead of him, although I sincerely doubt it.

In any case, I don't know where the silly notion that Ferrari stopped developing the car came from, there is no proof of that. Also, they didn't back Irvine? Porkies. So when Salo was TO's to hand over a win, that was not supporting him? When MSC did the same, that was not supporting him? And are we to believe that they stopped development after GB and the car was so bad that... MSC came back after 3 months and immediately put it on pole with a second difference from the second place? Something is not adding up here. LdM even promised Irvine a special bonus of an extra $2m if he won it. They wanted the WDC, they had spent so much money to be selective on who and when to win it.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:11 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.
Schumacher not wanting to come back was because he still felt pain on his leg, in the testing he did prior to his return. At least that is what he said at the time, the metal plate was pressing on a nerve and until it was removed it was causing great discomfort. But what happened to him wasn't just a broken leg. He broke both bones and they had to insert a metal plate on his leg. Right from the beginning the prognosis was that he would be out for 12-16 weeks, which is was in line with his return timeline (3 months). The story about the football has been questioned a lot, but in reality we will never know exactly. It is certainly not inconceivable that he wanted some peace and quiet, especially knowing how much pressure was on his shoulders for the title with every passing year. Maybe even he couldn't bear seeing Irvine winning the title instead of him, although I sincerely doubt it.

In any case, I don't know where the silly notion that Ferrari stopped developing the car came from, there is no proof of that. Also, they didn't back Irvine? Porkies. So when Salo was TO's to hand over a win, that was not supporting him? When MSC did the same, that was not supporting him? And are we to believe that they stopped development after GB and the car was so bad that... MSC came back after 3 months and immediately put it on pole with a second difference from the second place? Something is not adding up here. LdM even promised Irvine a special bonus of an extra $2m if he won it. They wanted the WDC, they had spent so much money to be selective on who and when to win it.
@the last paragraph: I did not claim any of this.

Regarding the first paragraph: there just were a little too much people knowing about the football game to keep it secret. And that he could drive after Ferrari ordered him - and in excellent form! - indicates that he was indeed fit. The conjecture that he did not want to help Irvine win that precious first Ferrari wdc of that era fits to Schumacher and his win-at-all-cost approach. And I actually agree here: it would have been grossly unfair.

Siao7
Posts: 9473
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:11 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.
Schumacher not wanting to come back was because he still felt pain on his leg, in the testing he did prior to his return. At least that is what he said at the time, the metal plate was pressing on a nerve and until it was removed it was causing great discomfort. But what happened to him wasn't just a broken leg. He broke both bones and they had to insert a metal plate on his leg. Right from the beginning the prognosis was that he would be out for 12-16 weeks, which is was in line with his return timeline (3 months). The story about the football has been questioned a lot, but in reality we will never know exactly. It is certainly not inconceivable that he wanted some peace and quiet, especially knowing how much pressure was on his shoulders for the title with every passing year. Maybe even he couldn't bear seeing Irvine winning the title instead of him, although I sincerely doubt it.

In any case, I don't know where the silly notion that Ferrari stopped developing the car came from, there is no proof of that. Also, they didn't back Irvine? Porkies. So when Salo was TO's to hand over a win, that was not supporting him? When MSC did the same, that was not supporting him? And are we to believe that they stopped development after GB and the car was so bad that... MSC came back after 3 months and immediately put it on pole with a second difference from the second place? Something is not adding up here. LdM even promised Irvine a special bonus of an extra $2m if he won it. They wanted the WDC, they had spent so much money to be selective on who and when to win it.
@the last paragraph: I did not claim any of this.

Regarding the first paragraph: there just were a little too much people knowing about the football game to keep it secret. And that he could drive after Ferrari ordered him - and in excellent form! - indicates that he was indeed fit. The conjecture that he did not want to help Irvine win that precious first Ferrari wdc of that era fits to Schumacher and his win-at-all-cost approach. And I actually agree here: it would have been grossly unfair.
I know it wasn't you, I didn't say it was. Luckily for me I have blocked the poster and I am lucky not to read such comments, but it doesn't block the quotes. Oh well!

We only know the football story only from LdM, so there's that. What do you mean with the last statement, that it would have been unfair for Irvine to win?

And I disagree with the but before that, Schumacher contacted Irvine shortly after he got injured and had a few words for him: "just go for it", or something to that tune. His actions in Malaysia and Suzuka speak for themselves and how much he wanted to help Irvine or not. He did everything he could to help.

Paolo_Lasardi
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:11 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:11 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.
Schumacher not wanting to come back was because he still felt pain on his leg, in the testing he did prior to his return. At least that is what he said at the time, the metal plate was pressing on a nerve and until it was removed it was causing great discomfort. But what happened to him wasn't just a broken leg. He broke both bones and they had to insert a metal plate on his leg. Right from the beginning the prognosis was that he would be out for 12-16 weeks, which is was in line with his return timeline (3 months). The story about the football has been questioned a lot, but in reality we will never know exactly. It is certainly not inconceivable that he wanted some peace and quiet, especially knowing how much pressure was on his shoulders for the title with every passing year. Maybe even he couldn't bear seeing Irvine winning the title instead of him, although I sincerely doubt it.

In any case, I don't know where the silly notion that Ferrari stopped developing the car came from, there is no proof of that. Also, they didn't back Irvine? Porkies. So when Salo was TO's to hand over a win, that was not supporting him? When MSC did the same, that was not supporting him? And are we to believe that they stopped development after GB and the car was so bad that... MSC came back after 3 months and immediately put it on pole with a second difference from the second place? Something is not adding up here. LdM even promised Irvine a special bonus of an extra $2m if he won it. They wanted the WDC, they had spent so much money to be selective on who and when to win it.
@the last paragraph: I did not claim any of this.

Regarding the first paragraph: there just were a little too much people knowing about the football game to keep it secret. And that he could drive after Ferrari ordered him - and in excellent form! - indicates that he was indeed fit. The conjecture that he did not want to help Irvine win that precious first Ferrari wdc of that era fits to Schumacher and his win-at-all-cost approach. And I actually agree here: it would have been grossly unfair.
I know it wasn't you, I didn't say it was. Luckily for me I have blocked the poster and I am lucky not to read such comments, but it doesn't block the quotes. Oh well!

We only know the football story only from LdM, so there's that. What do you mean with the last statement, that it would have been unfair for Irvine to win?

And I disagree with the but before that, Schumacher contacted Irvine shortly after he got injured and had a few words for him: "just go for it", or something to that tune. His actions in Malaysia and Suzuka speak for themselves and how much he wanted to help Irvine or not. He did everything he could to help.
Ah, okay.

I think that after how hard Schumacher worked for that first Ferrari wdc since 1979 and how much better he was than Irvine, it would have been grossly unfair if Irvine scored that precious success.

Siao7
Posts: 9473
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:46 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:11 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:11 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:47 pm


Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.
Schumacher not wanting to come back was because he still felt pain on his leg, in the testing he did prior to his return. At least that is what he said at the time, the metal plate was pressing on a nerve and until it was removed it was causing great discomfort. But what happened to him wasn't just a broken leg. He broke both bones and they had to insert a metal plate on his leg. Right from the beginning the prognosis was that he would be out for 12-16 weeks, which is was in line with his return timeline (3 months). The story about the football has been questioned a lot, but in reality we will never know exactly. It is certainly not inconceivable that he wanted some peace and quiet, especially knowing how much pressure was on his shoulders for the title with every passing year. Maybe even he couldn't bear seeing Irvine winning the title instead of him, although I sincerely doubt it.

In any case, I don't know where the silly notion that Ferrari stopped developing the car came from, there is no proof of that. Also, they didn't back Irvine? Porkies. So when Salo was TO's to hand over a win, that was not supporting him? When MSC did the same, that was not supporting him? And are we to believe that they stopped development after GB and the car was so bad that... MSC came back after 3 months and immediately put it on pole with a second difference from the second place? Something is not adding up here. LdM even promised Irvine a special bonus of an extra $2m if he won it. They wanted the WDC, they had spent so much money to be selective on who and when to win it.
@the last paragraph: I did not claim any of this.

Regarding the first paragraph: there just were a little too much people knowing about the football game to keep it secret. And that he could drive after Ferrari ordered him - and in excellent form! - indicates that he was indeed fit. The conjecture that he did not want to help Irvine win that precious first Ferrari wdc of that era fits to Schumacher and his win-at-all-cost approach. And I actually agree here: it would have been grossly unfair.
I know it wasn't you, I didn't say it was. Luckily for me I have blocked the poster and I am lucky not to read such comments, but it doesn't block the quotes. Oh well!

We only know the football story only from LdM, so there's that. What do you mean with the last statement, that it would have been unfair for Irvine to win?

And I disagree with the but before that, Schumacher contacted Irvine shortly after he got injured and had a few words for him: "just go for it", or something to that tune. His actions in Malaysia and Suzuka speak for themselves and how much he wanted to help Irvine or not. He did everything he could to help.
Ah, okay.

I think that after how hard Schumacher worked for that first Ferrari wdc since 1979 and how much better he was than Irvine, it would have been grossly unfair if Irvine scored that precious success.
Ah, I see what you mean. Well, life isn't fair!! At least them 3 managed the first WCC for years, so there's bragging rights there too.

pokerman
Posts: 37593
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Schumacher was treated like a king in comparison to Hamilton at McLaren, in 1999 they didn't back Irvine at all as soon as Schumacher broke his leg then they stopped development on the car believing the title was lost. The surprise was Irvine being able to make a fight of it and look at how a Schumacher fan words it, after Ferrari found out that Schumacher was fit to race, something that Schumacher was trying to hide, they ordered him back to help Irvine, is that not what he's paid to do to drive the car, who is the employer and the employee?
Indeed, that was a strange story. Most drivers want to get back into the car and racing - and don't have to be ordered to come back after pretending to be not fit and being called out about this. A fascinating episode - also in respect to team-builder, dynasty, work ethic and stuff.

I think there is no doubt that Schumacher was more the center of Ferrari's support and preferences ( and Benetton's before that) than Hamilton was at McLaren and Mercedes. The question would rather be how much contributed their personalities to achieving this status and how much was rather right time-right circumstances-luck? Given how good luck is usually ex post rationalized into being actually due to your own performance whereas bad luck is blamed to external forces, this will remain difficult to tell.
It's nice to have a reasoned reply. :thumbup:
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 101 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 37593
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:11 pm
In any case, I don't know where the silly notion that Ferrari stopped developing the car came from, there is no proof of that. Also, they didn't back Irvine? Porkies. So when Salo was TO's to hand over a win, that was not supporting him? When MSC did the same, that was not supporting him? And are we to believe that they stopped development after GB and the car was so bad that... MSC came back after 3 months and immediately put it on pole with a second difference from the second place? Something is not adding up here. LdM even promised Irvine a special bonus of an extra $2m if he won it. They wanted the WDC, they had spent so much money to be selective on who and when to win it.
It's really nice that you block my posts but then still comment on them without me having the chance to defend myself, in this instance I'm seemingly being called a liar, it's so nice how you are able to take the high ground. Go to 3.00.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ed ... &FORM=VIRE

Someone is going to need to quote this post for me otherwise he's able to maintain his high ground.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 101 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Oh look, yet another comment from a former team-mate of Hamilton clearly stating what I have been saying all along - that Hamilton simply doesn't have the team-management skills that true greats like Schumacher and Senna have.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/jenson-bu ... -hamilton/

Reminds me of the argument earlier in the thread where some people were arguing that Hamilton will win head to head against Schumacher in the same team - no chance!

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
...that Hamilton simply doesn't have the team-management skills that true greats like Schumacher and Senna have.
If Hamilton didn't at McLaren, he does now at Mercedes since 2017. He won't allow George Russell to win the team over without beating him on track first. Button won over Whitmarsh before winter testing in 2010 and the team shortly after.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
Reminds me of the argument earlier in the thread where some people were arguing that Hamilton will win head to head against Schumacher in the same team - no chance!
I've read around the issue and there is no way that Schumacher would sweep Hamilton. Schumacher always made mistakes under pressure and Hamilton would have been his stiffest competition as a teammate in his entire career. Schumacher would win more seasons but Hamilton would pinch one or two.

There is a good reason that Hamilton made Alonso sweat. Too quick to be a wingman.
OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
...that Hamilton simply doesn't have the team-management skills that true greats like Schumacher and Senna have.
If Hamilton didn't at McLaren, he does now at Mercedes since 2017. He won't allow George Russell to win the team over without beating him on track first. Button won over Whitmarsh before winter testing in 2010 and the team shortly after.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
Reminds me of the argument earlier in the thread where some people were arguing that Hamilton will win head to head against Schumacher in the same team - no chance!
I've read around the issue and there is no way that Schumacher would sweep Hamilton. Schumacher always made mistakes under pressure and Hamilton would have been his stiffest competition as a teammate in his entire career. Schumacher would win more seasons but Hamilton would pinch one or two.

There is a good reason that Hamilton made Alonso sweat. Too quick to be a wingman.
Since 2017 - after turning 32. After a time when he has not had to deal with any inter-team competition because he's been paired with a substandard driver, so we still don't really know how he would deal with it - although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.

Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference. Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.

pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Just confirmation of how Whitmarsh, who signed Button, allowed Button to pull the team in his direction, this is what some of us were talking about how McLaren never fully backed Hamilton in his title challenges while Hamilton was there, also why Hamilton left the team.

Today Hamilton has that, a similar kind of set up Schumacher, and he's thriving but still the criticism because his teammate, Bottas, doesn't rock the boat enough.

It's strange how criticism of Hamilton is how he wasn't able to pull a team around him like Schumacher was because he didn't gain the same level of respect within the team as Schumacher did, but when Hamilton eventually was able to do that then the criticism turns to him not having enough competition within his team.

This is mainly from Schumacher fans but they don't seem to realise they are describing most of Schumacher's career when criticising Bottas, yet another double standard.
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