The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

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WHoff78
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by WHoff78 »

Well I haven't heard anyone suggest that the best drivers will be in the best car for every season of their career? Obviously not a reasonable expectation or someone that anyone would claim. To be honest, I'm not even sure that your message warranted a response.

To be honest, it is much more complex anyway. Max and Charles may not even find themselves in the top car over the next few seasons, because there are a few other drivers who could be seen as being just as good - Russell for one.

WHoff78
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by WHoff78 »

But, assuming Max finds his way to a top car once Hamilton (or Mercedes) has freed up that space, it would seem that over the last 20-years - Verstappen, Hamilton, Alonso, and Schumacher have all been in a top car for the majority of those two decades. Feels like the top drivers to me, but I know we all rate things slightly differently.

pokerman
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:14 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:03 am

Easy

Exhibit A: Alonso
Exhibit B: Webber and Bottas

Disproven
Alonso found his way into a top car 3 times but then also walked out 3 times, that's on him.

Regarding Webber and Bottas I'm sure both manged to get a top 6 ranking during their tenures in a top team, I think it's a bit naïve to think that top teams will allow certain driver combinations, do you think we will ever see Verstappen and Leclerc together at the same team?

If you look at what we might considered to be the top drivers on this years grid, Hamilton twice, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Vettel twice, Alonso 3 times, all managed to find their way into top teams, Ricciardo another driver that walked out, Vettel basically got sacked.
Surely in the context of what you are discussing "top team" is totally irrelevant and the only thing that matters is championship contending team?

Something that Ricciardo, Verstappen and Leclerc have never had the privilege of.
Well the actual reference point to my post was Alonso and I seem to recall that he's been in 5 title contending cars and basically turned down 2017 and 2018 title contending cars, we just want to be fact checking my post?

The poster refuted my claim that the best drivers manage to find themselves in the best or top teams, that's not specific to what you are really wanting it to mean.

Originally I was also projecting the futures of Verstappen and Leclerc, apparently being in top teams won't necessarily be enough because domination is never ending?
What I want it to mean is something relevant rather than irrelevant. Even in non dominant times being in a "top team" often doesn't do a driver any good when it comes to competing for the championship. Nelson Piquet JR drove or a "top team" but didn't drive a car with any hope of competing for the championship. Ricciardo has spent almost his entire career in "top teams" but it's not done him a lot of good.

Besides... What even constitutes a top team?

I think it's pretty clear that the best drivers don't get into the best cars. Whether you like it or not that is evidenced by Merc deciding to stick with Bottas rather than hire Alonso or Ricciardo.
A top team is one that is not considered to be either a midfield team or a backmarker team, last year we would class Mercedes and Red Bull as top teams, the years previous Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull, I wouldn't have classed the 2008 Renault has being a top team/car.

This certainly didn't get questioned last week when in response to Hamilton having won at least one race every year in F1, the response was what drivers have had the privilege that Hamilton has had of being in a top team team for every year of his F1 career.

Anyway I will repeat we were projecting the futures of Leclerc and Verstappen were I said as being the 2 best drivers in F1, I was thinking post Hamilton, they will always find themselves in top teams, at that point it got questioned about the idea of top drivers finding their way to top teams.

As far as the actual future is concerned of course I can't see to place them in the very best car but I was thinking of a future given what's being put in place were domination is maybe less common.

To your final part you are clearly determining a top team as one fighting for the title, different from my interpretation and like I said I didn't see that getting checked when it was said that Hamilton has always been in a top team.
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mikeyg123
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:14 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm

Alonso found his way into a top car 3 times but then also walked out 3 times, that's on him.

Regarding Webber and Bottas I'm sure both manged to get a top 6 ranking during their tenures in a top team, I think it's a bit naïve to think that top teams will allow certain driver combinations, do you think we will ever see Verstappen and Leclerc together at the same team?

If you look at what we might considered to be the top drivers on this years grid, Hamilton twice, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Vettel twice, Alonso 3 times, all managed to find their way into top teams, Ricciardo another driver that walked out, Vettel basically got sacked.
Surely in the context of what you are discussing "top team" is totally irrelevant and the only thing that matters is championship contending team?

Something that Ricciardo, Verstappen and Leclerc have never had the privilege of.
Well the actual reference point to my post was Alonso and I seem to recall that he's been in 5 title contending cars and basically turned down 2017 and 2018 title contending cars, we just want to be fact checking my post?

The poster refuted my claim that the best drivers manage to find themselves in the best or top teams, that's not specific to what you are really wanting it to mean.

Originally I was also projecting the futures of Verstappen and Leclerc, apparently being in top teams won't necessarily be enough because domination is never ending?
What I want it to mean is something relevant rather than irrelevant. Even in non dominant times being in a "top team" often doesn't do a driver any good when it comes to competing for the championship. Nelson Piquet JR drove or a "top team" but didn't drive a car with any hope of competing for the championship. Ricciardo has spent almost his entire career in "top teams" but it's not done him a lot of good.

Besides... What even constitutes a top team?

I think it's pretty clear that the best drivers don't get into the best cars. Whether you like it or not that is evidenced by Merc deciding to stick with Bottas rather than hire Alonso or Ricciardo.
A top team is one that is not considered to be either a midfield team or a backmarker team, last year we would class Mercedes and Red Bull as top teams, the years previous Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull, I wouldn't have classed the 2008 Renault has being a top team/car.

This certainly didn't get questioned last week when in response to Hamilton having won at least one race every year in F1, the response was what drivers have had the privilege that Hamilton has had of being in a top team team for every year of his F1 career.

Anyway I will repeat we were projecting the futures of Leclerc and Verstappen were I said as being the 2 best drivers in F1, I was thinking post Hamilton, they will always find themselves in top teams, at that point it got questioned about the idea of top drivers finding their way to top teams.

As far as the actual future is concerned of course I can't see to place them in the very best car but I was thinking of a future given what's being put in place were domination is maybe less common.

To your final part you are clearly determining a top team as one fighting for the title, different from my interpretation and like I said I didn't see that getting checked when it was said that Hamilton has always been in a top team.
In depends on context and what's relevant. In the context of winning races then it's relevant to say that Hamilton has always been in a "top team" without having to distinguish between a top team and a team capable of competing for the championship because that level isn't required competitive enough to win races.

But you were talking of who was going to be competing for championship and at that level a "top team" isn't necessarily enough.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:03 am

Easy

Exhibit A: Alonso
Exhibit B: Webber and Bottas

Disproven
Alonso found his way into a top car 3 times but then also walked out 3 times, that's on him.

Regarding Webber and Bottas I'm sure both manged to get a top 6 ranking during their tenures in a top team, I think it's a bit naïve to think that top teams will allow certain driver combinations, do you think we will ever see Verstappen and Leclerc together at the same team?

If you look at what we might considered to be the top drivers on this years grid, Hamilton twice, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Vettel twice, Alonso 3 times, all managed to find their way into top teams, Ricciardo another driver that walked out, Vettel basically got sacked.
Surely in the context of what you are discussing "top team" is totally irrelevant and the only thing that matters is championship contending team?

Something that Ricciardo, Verstappen and Leclerc have never had the privilege of.
Well the actual reference point to my post was Alonso and I seem to recall that he's been in 5 title contending cars and basically turned down 2017 and 2018 title contending cars, we just want to be fact checking my post?

The poster refuted my claim that the best drivers manage to find themselves in the best or top teams, that's not specific to what you are really wanting it to mean.

Originally I was also projecting the futures of Verstappen and Leclerc, apparently being in top teams won't necessarily be enough because domination is never ending?

I think you're comparing foresight to hindsight, as if they are two of the same.

In F1, there will always and ever be a time lag of uncertainty. That time lag is the difference in time between when a commits to an F1 team, and the future time at which they expect the team they are signing with will be competitive. It's exceptionally uncertain, particularly into new regulations.

In your attempt to shun Alonso into picking the wrong career moves, you are indirectly illustrating the core issue at hand. It is exceptionally hard to predict the future winners. Particularly in today's Formula where team-driver relationships are very sticky, opportunities to move to different capable teams come around every few years. This inertia makes it even harder for the top driver to be placed into the top team.

We can hardly fault Alonso with his roll of the dice effort. For five years, Ferrari have failed to deliver him a car - and critically into the next generation. Did it make sense to wait around another handful years in a mid-tier car, hoping that things would turn around? Do we also shun Hamilton for leaving the top team Mclaren for rolling the dice with Mercedes? There will always be uncertainty about the future. The best we can hope for is a liquid driver market and cars to shift balance of power more frequently. Add to this more deregulation - as engine freezes and the like simply extend a team's dominance.
I didn't actually bring Alonso into this, that was another poster claiming that Alonso was an example of a top driver not finding his way into a top car which obviously is so untrue but quite amazingly for me this isn't the post that needs checking.

Alonso has had more opportunity then many other drivers, let's not also forget that Alonso had 2 title chances at Ferrari and the shift in balance did happen at Ferrari it just needed Alonso to wait one more year, as for liquid driver markets do you think Alonso himself would never block certain drivers?
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pokerman
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

FrogInARaceCar wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:40 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:36 pm
Invade wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:04 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:33 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:20 pm
I'd expect the fastest of the next gen to be a touch quicker than those of the previous, so those figures fit in line with my intuition, at least.
But Schumacher was quicker than both Alonso and Hamilton, which contradicts that idea.

I have Schumacher up 0.190% on Hamilton using Button-Barrichello as a reference, and about 0.130% up using Massa-Bottas reference.

Therefore, the ultimate speed of drivers from the 21st century is:

1. Schumacher
2. Verstappen
3. Leclerc
4/5. Hamilton = Ricciardo
6. Alonso
This isn't clear. You're relying on synchronic measurements, which relates contemporaneous performance, to be diachronically meaningful regarding absolute performance. There are transitive links but they aren't immune from the slowly shifting band of 'global' or macro performance in a sport. Bobby Fischer had an absurd gap to the field in chess but clearly played weaker chess than Carlsen plays today, who is less dominant over his contemporaries - or even Anand, who was never particularly dominant. OK, the time gaps in these examples are large, but just because in some comparisons there is less distance doesn't mean a difference in general performance, at the top level and of the grid in general, isn't occurring. And that change isn't necessarily linear, but the general trend is improvement and increased professionalism.

In short, relative contemporaneous dominance can't reliably be used to state factually that a driver from one time is faster than a driver from another.

But in terms of who was most ahead of their time, much like Fischer was ahead of his Schumacher was ahead of his. But perhaps Karpov was better than Fischer, and perhaps he would have beat him.
Yeah I also broached this subject, drivers in the past often gapped their teammates by over 1 second in qualifying sessions, todays equivalent would be cut back to half a second plus, today's competition is either better or the knowledge is better with access to data, you beat your teammate easily in one race, the next race he gets a 700 page document explaining why it happened.
I think there is something to the idea of teammate comparisons as a way of predicting future performance. I'm interested to see how the predictions from the start of the thread turn out.
But... statements like "Therefore, the ultimate speed of drivers from the 21st century is..." are so wildly overconfident as to be almost meaningless. Eras change, drivers evolve over time and every link in the chain adds more uncertainty. Hell, if we say Michael Schumacher is the "fastest driver of the 21st century" are we talking about 2000-2004 Michael Schumacher who swept all before him, or 2010-2012 Michael Schumacher who was roundly beaten by Nico Rosberg? Or both?

I like this thread as a way of trialling the quantitative A>B>C method. As I said, I think it does have some value, although I suspect the results tend to match intuition and I'm keen to see if one of these analyses can correctly predict a surprise. But I also know that it's easy to unconciously produce results that reflect your personal opinions, and statistical errors are a pain in the pickle to correctly account for.
I think such analysis takes away surprises rather than predicting surprises, the surprise would be to make a wrong prediction.
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pokerman
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:25 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:50 pm

The idea that the best drivers end up in the best cars (which is what you are trying to push here), is one of the most easily disprovable myths in F1.

It simply isn’t true.
Disprove it then.
Easy

Exhibit A: Alonso
Exhibit B: Webber and Bottas

Disproven
Alonso found his way into a top car 3 times but then also walked out 3 times, that's on him.

Regarding Webber and Bottas I'm sure both manged to get a top 6 ranking during their tenures in a top team, I think it's a bit naïve to think that top teams will allow certain driver combinations, do you think we will ever see Verstappen and Leclerc together at the same team?

If you look at what we might considered to be the top drivers on this years grid, Hamilton twice, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Vettel twice, Alonso 3 times, all managed to find their way into top teams, Ricciardo another driver that walked out, Vettel basically got sacked.
Top team and top car are not synonyms

Is Red Bull a top team? Sure. Was any Red Bull car from 2014-2020 anywhere near as good as their Mercedes counterpart? No.

The phrase “top team” is a bit meaningless anyway. Perez thought he joined a top team in 2013 only to end up with a car slower than his Sauber from the season before.

At the end of the day, Bottas has spent at least 5 years of his career in WDC capable machinery while Ricciardo has never had a WDC capable car. Ricciardo is a better driver, but Bottas drives better cars. That just shows how “best drivers end up in the best cars” is a total myth.
It's just a wording top team refers to top car, I wouldn't say that Ferrari were a top team last year, my post is the originator and I specifically didn't say a WDC capable car when I said that Verstappen and Leclerc will always be in top teams, we have to see Ferrari as just having a blip last season for obvious reasons.

Best cars is my interpretation of cars that are better than midfield cars, of course it's impractical to be able to stick all the best drivers in the best car if there happens to be an out and out best car and then we can perhaps look to other drivers as not being given fair chance in the out and out best car, I see that you've now changed that from Alonso to Ricciardo.

Anyway it's nice to know that being in a top team is somewhat meaningless, Hamilton often has that thrown at him when there's mention of his win a race every season record.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

WHoff78 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:08 pm
Plus, the saying is that the best drivers generally get into the best cars/teams. No-one is saying that ONLY the best drivers end up in the best cars. It is very unusual for a team to go for two alphas and very difficult to manage, so that is a different argument all together. I think the best we could hope for there is a Hamilton-Russell pairing in 2022. McLaren are one of the few team who seems to have a history of putting great drivers alongside each other. And I think they've lined up another treat for us with Ricciardo and Norris.
Yes McLaren did that and how did it turn out Senna/Prost and Alonso/Hamilton, not great working environments.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:04 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:03 am

Easy

Exhibit A: Alonso
Exhibit B: Webber and Bottas

Disproven
Alonso found his way into a top car 3 times but then also walked out 3 times, that's on him.

Regarding Webber and Bottas I'm sure both manged to get a top 6 ranking during their tenures in a top team, I think it's a bit naïve to think that top teams will allow certain driver combinations, do you think we will ever see Verstappen and Leclerc together at the same team?

If you look at what we might considered to be the top drivers on this years grid, Hamilton twice, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Vettel twice, Alonso 3 times, all managed to find their way into top teams, Ricciardo another driver that walked out, Vettel basically got sacked.
Top team and top car are not synonyms

Is Red Bull a top team? Sure. Was any Red Bull car from 2014-2020 anywhere near as good as their Mercedes counterpart? No.

The phrase “top team” is a bit meaningless anyway. Perez thought he joined a top team in 2013 only to end up with a car slower than his Sauber from the season before.

At the end of the day, Bottas has spent at least 5 years of his career in WDC capable machinery while Ricciardo has never had a WDC capable car. Ricciardo is a better driver, but Bottas drives better cars. That just shows how “best drivers end up in the best cars” is a total myth.
That clearly depends how you rate the drivers. I would suggest that those who rate Hamilton as the best of his generation would be quick to point out that the best team signed him up. He also kept the McLaren seat for 2008, despite the year before going up against the one driver who would have been super confident, fresh of his two world driver titles, and who many think was the best on the grid at the time.
Hamilton approached Red Bull in 2012 and was rejected. Red Bull was the best seat in the sport at the time, and the best driver of his generation was rejected from that seat, while Sebastian Vettel (a driver wildly agreed to be inferior) kept the best seat on the grid.

How is that possible in a sport where the best drivers always end up in the best cars?
Again it's down to your interpretation of what best cars means, the plural I left in for a reason, it's a bit unfortunate that you pick 2012 when McLaren was thought to have the best car, not best team, but best car.

I quite like the description of Hamilton but I don't believe it was true at the time, the end of season ranking would perhaps place him below Alonso and Vettel.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:14 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:01 pm


Surely in the context of what you are discussing "top team" is totally irrelevant and the only thing that matters is championship contending team?

Something that Ricciardo, Verstappen and Leclerc have never had the privilege of.
Well the actual reference point to my post was Alonso and I seem to recall that he's been in 5 title contending cars and basically turned down 2017 and 2018 title contending cars, we just want to be fact checking my post?

The poster refuted my claim that the best drivers manage to find themselves in the best or top teams, that's not specific to what you are really wanting it to mean.

Originally I was also projecting the futures of Verstappen and Leclerc, apparently being in top teams won't necessarily be enough because domination is never ending?
What I want it to mean is something relevant rather than irrelevant. Even in non dominant times being in a "top team" often doesn't do a driver any good when it comes to competing for the championship. Nelson Piquet JR drove or a "top team" but didn't drive a car with any hope of competing for the championship. Ricciardo has spent almost his entire career in "top teams" but it's not done him a lot of good.

Besides... What even constitutes a top team?

I think it's pretty clear that the best drivers don't get into the best cars. Whether you like it or not that is evidenced by Merc deciding to stick with Bottas rather than hire Alonso or Ricciardo.
A top team is one that is not considered to be either a midfield team or a backmarker team, last year we would class Mercedes and Red Bull as top teams, the years previous Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull, I wouldn't have classed the 2008 Renault has being a top team/car.

This certainly didn't get questioned last week when in response to Hamilton having won at least one race every year in F1, the response was what drivers have had the privilege that Hamilton has had of being in a top team team for every year of his F1 career.

Anyway I will repeat we were projecting the futures of Leclerc and Verstappen were I said as being the 2 best drivers in F1, I was thinking post Hamilton, they will always find themselves in top teams, at that point it got questioned about the idea of top drivers finding their way to top teams.

As far as the actual future is concerned of course I can't see to place them in the very best car but I was thinking of a future given what's being put in place were domination is maybe less common.

To your final part you are clearly determining a top team as one fighting for the title, different from my interpretation and like I said I didn't see that getting checked when it was said that Hamilton has always been in a top team.
In depends on context and what's relevant. In the context of winning races then it's relevant to say that Hamilton has always been in a "top team" without having to distinguish between a top team and a team capable of competing for the championship because that level isn't required competitive enough to win races.

But you were talking of who was going to be competing for championship and at that level a "top team" isn't necessarily enough.
No it's not a guarantee but you are still giving yourself a fair chance over the course of your career, I feel you are kind of encamped in this Mercedes domination era, this was all I was saying about Verstappen and Leclerc going forward post Hamilton.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:17 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 pm

Alonso found his way into a top car 3 times but then also walked out 3 times, that's on him.

Regarding Webber and Bottas I'm sure both manged to get a top 6 ranking during their tenures in a top team, I think it's a bit naïve to think that top teams will allow certain driver combinations, do you think we will ever see Verstappen and Leclerc together at the same team?

If you look at what we might considered to be the top drivers on this years grid, Hamilton twice, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo, Vettel twice, Alonso 3 times, all managed to find their way into top teams, Ricciardo another driver that walked out, Vettel basically got sacked.
Surely in the context of what you are discussing "top team" is totally irrelevant and the only thing that matters is championship contending team?

Something that Ricciardo, Verstappen and Leclerc have never had the privilege of.
Well the actual reference point to my post was Alonso and I seem to recall that he's been in 5 title contending cars and basically turned down 2017 and 2018 title contending cars, we just want to be fact checking my post?

The poster refuted my claim that the best drivers manage to find themselves in the best or top teams, that's not specific to what you are really wanting it to mean.

Originally I was also projecting the futures of Verstappen and Leclerc, apparently being in top teams won't necessarily be enough because domination is never ending?

I think you're comparing foresight to hindsight, as if they are two of the same.

In F1, there will always and ever be a time lag of uncertainty. That time lag is the difference in time between when a commits to an F1 team, and the future time at which they expect the team they are signing with will be competitive. It's exceptionally uncertain, particularly into new regulations.

In your attempt to shun Alonso into picking the wrong career moves, you are indirectly illustrating the core issue at hand. It is exceptionally hard to predict the future winners. Particularly in today's Formula where team-driver relationships are very sticky, opportunities to move to different capable teams come around every few years. This inertia makes it even harder for the top driver to be placed into the top team.

We can hardly fault Alonso with his roll of the dice effort. For five years, Ferrari have failed to deliver him a car - and critically into the next generation. Did it make sense to wait around another handful years in a mid-tier car, hoping that things would turn around? Do we also shun Hamilton for leaving the top team Mclaren for rolling the dice with Mercedes? There will always be uncertainty about the future. The best we can hope for is a liquid driver market and cars to shift balance of power more frequently. Add to this more deregulation - as engine freezes and the like simply extend a team's dominance.
I didn't actually bring Alonso into this, that was another poster claiming that Alonso was an example of a top driver not finding his way into a top car which obviously is so untrue but quite amazingly for me this isn't the post that needs checking.

Alonso has had more opportunity then many other drivers, let's not also forget that Alonso had 2 title chances at Ferrari and the shift in balance did happen at Ferrari it just needed Alonso to wait one more year, as for liquid driver markets do you think Alonso himself would never block certain drivers?
Generally, I would consider top to be, equal or better than any other team. That is, no team is better than them. Alonso has arguably not been in a top team for the whole of the 2010's, which is pretty surreal given most would consider him to be a top (same definition as above) driver. You refer to Alonso's title chances, but really, were Ferrari the top team in either of those years?

And as for Alonso blocking certain drivers - yeah I'm going to give a hard pass on that one. He had no hesitation racing against Raikkonen in 2014, nor had he had hesitation racing Button after that (who beat Hamilton in one of their three seasons together). He also did not block the very promising Vandoorne from joining Macca - even as a driver who had to race against one of the best rookies ever.

Indeed, I would say Alonso has been the most demonstrable driver of promoting a liquid market - look at all his career moves. Obviously that is not perceived as a good or bad thing - it merely points out such a criticism against Alonso is unfound.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by KingVoid »

I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by JN23 »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 pm
I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.
Your last point: are you saying your figures (presumably Hamilton-Button-Perez) would see Hamilton 0.267% faster than Perez?

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by KingVoid »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:14 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 pm
I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.
Your last point: are you saying your figures (presumably Hamilton-Button-Perez) would see Hamilton 0.267% faster than Perez?
Correct

Hamilton > Button by 0.270%
Perez > Button by 0.003%

Perez to Red Bull is by far the best clue to date in the Hamilton vs Verstappen comparison. Let’s see what happens in 2021.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Exediron »

And since Sainz can be linked quite reliably to Norris, the upcoming Sainz/Leclerc and Norris/Ricciardo match-ups will provide a nice look at how Leclerc likely fits into that discussion.

Plenty of comparison data to go around in the 2021 season! :thumbup:
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by A.J. »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:14 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 pm
I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.
Your last point: are you saying your figures (presumably Hamilton-Button-Perez) would see Hamilton 0.267% faster than Perez?
Correct

Hamilton > Button by 0.270%
Perez > Button by 0.003%

Perez to Red Bull is by far the best clue to date in the Hamilton vs Verstappen comparison. Let’s see what happens in 2021.
Doesn't the time gap between Perez at McLaren vs Perez at RBR change things somewhat? He's hardly the same driver we saw at McLaren 8 years ago - from being almost rookie-like to being somewhat of a veteran - even if it doesn't help with outright speed, surely he's a lot better at ironing out issues which would have previously hampered him. I would expect him to be comfortably quicker than he was during his stint at McLaren.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:11 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:14 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 pm
I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.
Your last point: are you saying your figures (presumably Hamilton-Button-Perez) would see Hamilton 0.267% faster than Perez?
Correct

Hamilton > Button by 0.270%
Perez > Button by 0.003%

Perez to Red Bull is by far the best clue to date in the Hamilton vs Verstappen comparison. Let’s see what happens in 2021.
Doesn't the time gap between Perez at McLaren vs Perez at RBR change things somewhat? He's hardly the same driver we saw at McLaren 8 years ago - from being almost rookie-like to being somewhat of a veteran - even if it doesn't help with outright speed, surely he's a lot better at ironing out issues which would have previously hampered him. I would expect him to be comfortably quicker than he was during his stint at McLaren.
I think it's unusual for drivers to get noticeably quicker as their careers go on outside of their first two seasons unless they are a very inexperienced rookie E.G Verstappen or Raikkonen.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:13 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:17 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:01 pm


Surely in the context of what you are discussing "top team" is totally irrelevant and the only thing that matters is championship contending team?

Something that Ricciardo, Verstappen and Leclerc have never had the privilege of.
Well the actual reference point to my post was Alonso and I seem to recall that he's been in 5 title contending cars and basically turned down 2017 and 2018 title contending cars, we just want to be fact checking my post?

The poster refuted my claim that the best drivers manage to find themselves in the best or top teams, that's not specific to what you are really wanting it to mean.

Originally I was also projecting the futures of Verstappen and Leclerc, apparently being in top teams won't necessarily be enough because domination is never ending?

I think you're comparing foresight to hindsight, as if they are two of the same.

In F1, there will always and ever be a time lag of uncertainty. That time lag is the difference in time between when a commits to an F1 team, and the future time at which they expect the team they are signing with will be competitive. It's exceptionally uncertain, particularly into new regulations.

In your attempt to shun Alonso into picking the wrong career moves, you are indirectly illustrating the core issue at hand. It is exceptionally hard to predict the future winners. Particularly in today's Formula where team-driver relationships are very sticky, opportunities to move to different capable teams come around every few years. This inertia makes it even harder for the top driver to be placed into the top team.

We can hardly fault Alonso with his roll of the dice effort. For five years, Ferrari have failed to deliver him a car - and critically into the next generation. Did it make sense to wait around another handful years in a mid-tier car, hoping that things would turn around? Do we also shun Hamilton for leaving the top team Mclaren for rolling the dice with Mercedes? There will always be uncertainty about the future. The best we can hope for is a liquid driver market and cars to shift balance of power more frequently. Add to this more deregulation - as engine freezes and the like simply extend a team's dominance.
I didn't actually bring Alonso into this, that was another poster claiming that Alonso was an example of a top driver not finding his way into a top car which obviously is so untrue but quite amazingly for me this isn't the post that needs checking.

Alonso has had more opportunity then many other drivers, let's not also forget that Alonso had 2 title chances at Ferrari and the shift in balance did happen at Ferrari it just needed Alonso to wait one more year, as for liquid driver markets do you think Alonso himself would never block certain drivers?
Generally, I would consider top to be, equal or better than any other team. That is, no team is better than them. Alonso has arguably not been in a top team for the whole of the 2010's, which is pretty surreal given most would consider him to be a top (same definition as above) driver. You refer to Alonso's title chances, but really, were Ferrari the top team in either of those years?

And as for Alonso blocking certain drivers - yeah I'm going to give a hard pass on that one. He had no hesitation racing against Raikkonen in 2014, nor had he had hesitation racing Button after that (who beat Hamilton in one of their three seasons together). He also did not block the very promising Vandoorne from joining Macca - even as a driver who had to race against one of the best rookies ever.

Indeed, I would say Alonso has been the most demonstrable driver of promoting a liquid market - look at all his career moves. Obviously that is not perceived as a good or bad thing - it merely points out such a criticism against Alonso is unfound.
Well I felt I had full backing with my view of what a top team is when a post last week went unchallenged saying that Hamilton has always been in a top team.

Alonso's situation at Ferrari was similar to what happened with Schumacher, he wanted out of Ferrari and LdM promised him an early release from his contract if Ferrari did not deliver in 2014, to that end they signed Kimi as a safeguard against Alonso leaving, Kimi had looked good at Lotus the previous 2 seasons and is Ferrari's last champion.

Alonso was clearly not happy with the signing given some of the derogatory remarks he made about KImi during the season, he wasn't happy because signing Kimi meant that he lost his #1 status, but given that he was looking for a way out of the team there wasn't the need to keep him happy anymore, Ferrari had to think about their own future hence they also started lining up Vettel to replace Alonso.

As for actually blocking drivers well I guess that would be mainly Hamilton, he suggested that Hamilton be stood down for Pedro de la Rosa before the 2007 season had even started, and when Hamilton was looking for a way out of McLaren in 2012 the door was not only blocked at Red bull but also at Ferrari. Alonso didn't got to all that trouble of establishing #1 status at Ferrari in 2010, Fernando is faster than you, to then allow a driver like Hamilton into the team without there being fireworks, toys being thrown out of the pram etc.

As for the other drivers mentioned, Button was the incumbent driver, I'm not sure even Alonso would try to flex his muscles and demand the removal of Button before driving for McLaren, with Vandoorne, Alonso has shown little problems in the past dealing with rookie teammates of weak character.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 pm
I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.
I agree and in general driver changes are always another piece in the puzzle.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by A.J. »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:22 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:11 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:14 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 pm
I'm actually super hyped about Perez going up against Verstappen, because it will give us a very clear picture on Hamilton vs Verstappen through the Button connection.

Although Perez is new to Red Bull, he was also new to McLaren in 2013, so that's not a valid excuse. Perez was outqualified 7-3 in the first half of the season but outqualified Button 7-2 in the second half, so he clearly got better as the season progressed.

There are no excuses for anyone. Let's see if Verstappen can beat Perez by more than the anticipated 0.267% from Hamilton.
Your last point: are you saying your figures (presumably Hamilton-Button-Perez) would see Hamilton 0.267% faster than Perez?
Correct

Hamilton > Button by 0.270%
Perez > Button by 0.003%

Perez to Red Bull is by far the best clue to date in the Hamilton vs Verstappen comparison. Let’s see what happens in 2021.
Doesn't the time gap between Perez at McLaren vs Perez at RBR change things somewhat? He's hardly the same driver we saw at McLaren 8 years ago - from being almost rookie-like to being somewhat of a veteran - even if it doesn't help with outright speed, surely he's a lot better at ironing out issues which would have previously hampered him. I would expect him to be comfortably quicker than he was during his stint at McLaren.
I think it's unusual for drivers to get noticeably quicker as their careers go on outside of their first two seasons unless they are a very inexperienced rookie E.G Verstappen or Raikkonen.
I don't really disagree with what you're saying - I think this might not be applicable to every driver, sure, but in this case I'm pretty confident he's a much better (and possibly quicker) driver than he was in 2013.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:22 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:11 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:14 pm


Your last point: are you saying your figures (presumably Hamilton-Button-Perez) would see Hamilton 0.267% faster than Perez?
Correct

Hamilton > Button by 0.270%
Perez > Button by 0.003%

Perez to Red Bull is by far the best clue to date in the Hamilton vs Verstappen comparison. Let’s see what happens in 2021.
Doesn't the time gap between Perez at McLaren vs Perez at RBR change things somewhat? He's hardly the same driver we saw at McLaren 8 years ago - from being almost rookie-like to being somewhat of a veteran - even if it doesn't help with outright speed, surely he's a lot better at ironing out issues which would have previously hampered him. I would expect him to be comfortably quicker than he was during his stint at McLaren.
I think it's unusual for drivers to get noticeably quicker as their careers go on outside of their first two seasons unless they are a very inexperienced rookie E.G Verstappen or Raikkonen.
I don't really disagree with what you're saying - I think this might not be applicable to every driver, sure, but in this case I'm pretty confident he's a much better (and possibly quicker) driver than he was in 2013.
All we are measuring here is quali speed. He was already faster than Button in 2013 and I've not seen anything since to suggest he's noticeably stepped up from that. Remember he was slower than Ocon in 2018. And I say all this as a long time cheerleader of Perez.

Perez has always been given a hard time over 2013 and I've never understood why. It was a good season for a drivers first in a new team with a very strong incumbent team mate.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:29 pm
Perez has always been given a hard time over 2013 and I've never understood why. It was a good season for a drivers first in a new team with a very strong incumbent team mate.
Yeah, I honestly find that pretty odd as well. To hear people talk, you'd think he disgraced himself at McLaren and got kicked back into the midfield as punishment. What actually happened is that he was all set to be retained until McLaren decided they wanted Magnussen in the car, which was really nothing to do with the job Perez did on track.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:20 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:29 pm
Perez has always been given a hard time over 2013 and I've never understood why. It was a good season for a drivers first in a new team with a very strong incumbent team mate.
Yeah, I honestly find that pretty odd as well. To hear people talk, you'd think he disgraced himself at McLaren and got kicked back into the midfield as punishment. What actually happened is that he was all set to be retained until McLaren decided they wanted Magnussen in the car, which was really nothing to do with the job Perez did on track.
I feel what really went wrong for Perez is that he was seen as a Hamilton replacement and being reasonable in respect to Button wasn't perhaps what they were looking for, let's not forget that when McLaren teamed up with Honda how much confidence did they have in Button leading the team to former glories, they signed up Alonso.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Tufty »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Siao7 »

Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Not much more than Rubens is my bet

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Tufty »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:41 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Not much more than Rubens is my bet
Mine too, it just fired up a few random neurons and my imagination ran away with it. In fairness his big flaw there would have been Schumacher.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Tufty »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
Correct, people remember '99 when he moved over once for Irvine, forgetting that in the other races he was mostly nowhere near where he should have been.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
That was one year in British F3 however I would say his main rival that year was Schumacher who won the German F3 title and the two of them went at it in the final race of the season, the historic Macau GP.

A race long battle with the leader Schumacher crashing out Hakkinen as he attempted to pass Schumacher on the final lap yards from the finish line, we might consider it a blueprint for what Schumacher would later do to Hill and JV.
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
Salo's career was derailed by a drink driving charge which prevented him from getting a super licence. He's hard to place. Certainly never bettered by a teammate when he had a full time drive but also never had a great teammate.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:28 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:41 pm
And TBF drivers jumping into a different team midseason rarely out in a representative performance.
This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
That was one year in British F3 however I would say his main rival that year was Schumacher who won the German F3 title and the two of them went at it in the final race of the season, the historic Macau GP.

A race long battle with the leader Schumacher crashing out Hakkinen as he attempted to pass Schumacher on the final lap yards from the finish line, we might consider it a blueprint for what Schumacher would later do to Hill and JV.
Salo was Hakkinen's main rival for a season. Schumacher for one race.

Murray Walker always used to say that Salo and Hakkinen disliked each other. No idea where that's from though.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:28 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm


This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
That was one year in British F3 however I would say his main rival that year was Schumacher who won the German F3 title and the two of them went at it in the final race of the season, the historic Macau GP.

A race long battle with the leader Schumacher crashing out Hakkinen as he attempted to pass Schumacher on the final lap yards from the finish line, we might consider it a blueprint for what Schumacher would later do to Hill and JV.
Salo was Hakkinen's main rival for a season. Schumacher for one race.

Murray Walker always used to say that Salo and Hakkinen disliked each other. No idea where that's from though.
Not meant to be nitpicking: didn't Häkkinen also entered a race in German F3 and beat Schumacher?

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:28 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:39 pm


This just made me wonder what Salo could have achieved in 2000 at Ferrari...
Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
That was one year in British F3 however I would say his main rival that year was Schumacher who won the German F3 title and the two of them went at it in the final race of the season, the historic Macau GP.

A race long battle with the leader Schumacher crashing out Hakkinen as he attempted to pass Schumacher on the final lap yards from the finish line, we might consider it a blueprint for what Schumacher would later do to Hill and JV.
Salo was Hakkinen's main rival for a season. Schumacher for one race.

Murray Walker always used to say that Salo and Hakkinen disliked each other. No idea where that's from though.
I believe Hakkinen and Schumacher were seen as the two big talents though, F3 at that time was split between different countries with the drivers coming together at the end of season Macau GP were Hakkinen and Schumacher stood out.
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pokerman
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:03 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:29 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:28 pm
Tufty wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:49 pm


Salo's stint was weird. He was very quick in Monza and Hockenheim but was nowhere at any track that had actual corners. He's certainly one of the big "what if" drivers.
I seem to recall reading that he was Hakkinen's major rival before they reached the big leagues.
That was one year in British F3 however I would say his main rival that year was Schumacher who won the German F3 title and the two of them went at it in the final race of the season, the historic Macau GP.

A race long battle with the leader Schumacher crashing out Hakkinen as he attempted to pass Schumacher on the final lap yards from the finish line, we might consider it a blueprint for what Schumacher would later do to Hill and JV.
Salo was Hakkinen's main rival for a season. Schumacher for one race.

Murray Walker always used to say that Salo and Hakkinen disliked each other. No idea where that's from though.
Not meant to be nitpicking: didn't Häkkinen also entered a race in German F3 and beat Schumacher?
Yeah Schumacher finished 2nd, he also did a one off race in Italian F3 and also won that.
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mikeyg123
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Hi guys,

bit of a random request but is anybody able to give me the average quali gap between Perez and Stroll for 2020 up to Mugello?

pokerman
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Hi guys,

bit of a random request but is anybody able to give me the average quali gap between Perez and Stroll for 2020 up to Mugello?
I have it as:-

Perez > Stroll 0.04s
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 101 (1st)
Podiums: 173 (1st)


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mikeyg123
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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:07 pm
Hi guys,

bit of a random request but is anybody able to give me the average quali gap between Perez and Stroll for 2020 up to Mugello?
I have it as:-

Perez > Stroll 0.04s
Cheers.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:03 pm
Not meant to be nitpicking: didn't Häkkinen also entered a race in German F3 and beat Schumacher?
Yes - the final race, where he was driving a Ralt (Honda-engined), which had a pretty big advantage over Schumacher's Reynard (Opel-engined) - especially on an engine-dependent track like the old Hockenheimring, where he won.

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Re: The Great Big 2021 A > B > C Thread

Post by Exediron »

After one qualifying session, here is a very early look at how the lineups compare to the model predictions:

LECLERC / SAINZ
Projected: 0.386% to 0.542% (Leclerc)
Result (Q3): 0.595% (Leclerc)

VERSTAPPEN / PEREZ
Projected: 0.385% - 0.544% (Verstappen)
Result (Q2): 0.376% (Verstappen)

NORRIS / RICCIARDO
Projected: 0.262% - 0.403% (Ricciardo)
Result (Q3): 0.052% (Ricciardo)

STROLL / VETTEL
Projected: 0.262% - 0.316% (Vettel)
Result (Q1): 0.863% (Stroll)

OCON / ALONSO
Projected: 0.158% - 0.426% (Alonso)
Result (Q1): 0.938% (Alonso)

So after a single session, no single result falls within the predicted range. The Ferrari and Red Bull pairings are both very close to one end of the projection, while the McLaren pairing is much tighter than projected so far.

The Aston Martin and Alpine pairings threw up yellow flag affected results, so they shouldn't be taken to mean very much.
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