Evaluating Schumi's legacy

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Pole2Win
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Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Pole2Win »

I feel very uncertain when someone speaks of Schumacher. I have a great deal of respect for him and his unquestionable talent. IMO he really is the best F1 driver ever and would've beaten Senna had the Brazilian survived the Imola GP in 1994. Of course, Benetton were blatant cheaters that season but it's difficult to speak of what would've happened, what Senna would do if he confirmed his suspicions, and so on.

However, I can't really forgive Schumi for various episodes throughout his career. 1994 was one thing, the attempt to take JV out in the 1997 decider was another, then obviously the later Ferrari days which were probably more due to the team than Schumi himself, and I don't think Barrichello is completely innocent either as I do believe he was bound by contract to playing the backup role and he accepted it willingly.

Even then, I found myself cheering for Schumi against Alonso in 2006 and again in 2010 when he came back driving for Mercedes. It's really weird, how Schumi went in my head. He was really bad (1994), then worse (1997), then I was awed by his performances (1998-2000), then I was bored by him (2001-2004), and finally began cheering for him again (2006, 2010 and beyond). It's a sign that there are definitely multiple facets to him and how complex he is. He was also never as ruthless in his private affairs as he was in racing either.

So, in the event that the current generation of Vettel and Hamilton doesn't overtake his 7 WDC record, how do you think Schumi will go down in history 10, maybe 20 years from now?
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by SnakeSVT2003 »

It's ok to not forgive Michael for those incidents. He is a superhero to me, but I won't forgive what he did to Villeneuve and what he did in Monaco in 2006. I will always consider the collision with Hill a racing incident, as he wasn't even turning into Hill when they collided (in the collision with Villeneuve, he had the wheel turned hard right even after the collision, demonstrating clear intent), and Hill himself said right after he got back to the pits that he would've done the same thing had he been the one in front. I also wish he had let Barrichello through in Austria, even though I understand that he was only doing as he was told by the boss, Todt.

I should also mention that Barrichello was on Top Gear a few years back and said the equipment was the same, only that Michael was given the best strategy, which IMO is normal since Michael was faster, and there is only one pit box and one optimal strategy. I will forever respect Rubens greatly, as he is the only teammate that could consistently get within half a second of Schumacher in Schumi's prime.

In any case, time is kind to sports heroes. His legacy will be brighter as time passes. The negatives fade or seem smaller, and the records and victories remain as remarkable achievements.
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MistaVega23
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by MistaVega23 »

He'll go down as arguably the greatest ever, irrespective of his transgressions during his career. Senna did the same and look how he's been revered since his death.

Schumacher changed my following of F1. After starting to watch the sport during 1992 I then became a massive Damon Hill fan and detested the young, cocky German who was beating my guy. Then he joined Ferrari, Damon won his WDC and then I suddenly found myself rooting for Schumi, first against Villeneuve and then against Hakkinen.

His speed and commitment stood out more than anything for me. Sure, watching Mika stick the McLaren on pole was great to watch, but witnessing Michael fighting with his cars and ending up on the front row simply took my breath away. I was bitter about Adelaide '94 obviously, but I forgave him for Jerez for the sole reason how desperate he wanted to win the title for Ferrari.

Being a fan through 1997-2000, I ended up enjoying his domination from 2001-2006 (2005 notwithstanding) purely because I watched him fight all those previous seasons, and that he now deserved his success. If the other teams couldn't compete, then tough luck.

I wish he hadn't come back in 2010 (apart from my being able to watch my hero at Silverstone in 2012) but you could tell he was a completely different character from his Ferrari days.

As time passes, we'll remember him for changing the face of Formula 1 forever. They constantly changed the rules just to stop him from winning. And no other driver can claim that tag.
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mds
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by mds »

Pole2Win wrote:It's really weird, how Schumi went in my head. He was really bad (1994), then worse (1997), then I was awed by his performances (1998-2000), then I was bored by him (2001-2004), and finally began cheering for him again (2006, 2010 and beyond).
For me it's not entirely the same, but rather comparable. I thought he was OK before Australia '94 even though I was rooting for Hill. But then that happened, and I didn't quite like him anymore - and that intensified after Jerez '97. I pretty much rooted for whoever could challenge him. First Hill, then Villeneuve, then Hakkinen, then Raikkonen. Got bored for a while between 2000 and 2004. Then, it started changing a bit. While memories of Adelaide and Jerez hadn't faded, people change over time, and he gradually became more likeable to me again. And that coincided with Alonso, being the new coming man, showing quite a bit of unsportsmanlike behaviour which I took a particular dislike for. So I actually ended up rooting for Schumacher in 2005 and 2006. When he came back, I always followed him and wanted him to do well.

Yes, I know, I made terrible choices in who to root for when it came to actually see your favourite winning :)

All this while, though, I have always realized he was the best out there (well, maybe not during his Merc-period). Maybe that is why I took to liking him in the end - because gradually I also came to the conclusion that I got to watch history in the making. I like human exploits, I like records, and who else embodies that more than Schumacher?

Our children will envy us for having got the chance to see Schumacher race. That's how he will go down in history.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by speedy_bob »

I always seem to root for the one putting in the most (& smartest) effort.
Senna, Schumacher, Vettel...hoping for Verstappen and Vandoorne.
Alonso for his completeness.

Schumi's fitness was excellent. I always like it when drivers stay disciplined. For most, it's only years later that you happen to read small bits in books left and right, giving an insight into which driver was REALLY putting in the effort, the hard work and the late hours. All of that ànd not getting frustrated, so being able to cope with disappointments is a maturity thing too.

As long as those characters rise to the top, I still enjoy F1.
Schumi was legendary for putting in his fitness routines daily, even when traveling only allowed him to start doing it at 22h in the evening for instance.
Senna (different era) also gave full commitment, especially later in his career when physical fitness was getting pro.
Vettel seems the same.

I also still have problems with 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 2006, but who is 100% perfect?
Still, that doesn't mean I would not have penalised it.

Stuff like pole in Monaco '12 just doesn't happen by accident.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Four. Currently there are four active German Formula One drivers. Rosberg, Vettel, Hulkenberg, and Wehrlein. There have been others such as Heidfeld, Glock, Ralf, and Sutil who joined Formula One after Michael Schumacher start to make headlines. Germany has four drivers in Formula One, the most of any nation.

The most dominant team currently is Mercedes, German. Of note is the fact that another German manufacturer, BMW, had a team of their own too.

Michael Schumacher set many records and won many races and titles. But his legacy is that he inspired his fellow countrymen to believe that they too can be successful in Formula One.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by hk77 »

For me, I think his historic achievement was bringing back Ferrari to win titles after a 2decade drought.

I must admit that one must admire his determination and motivation to stay the majority of his career battling it out for the top position. (Disregarding his Mercedes come back).

People can speak of Adelaide and Jerez, but he also had his fair share of bad luck that arguably lost him championships.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by POBRatings »

Schumacher has to go down in history as one of the greatest.

Imo it is wrong to downplay his 2010-2102 return: he was 41, had been out for 3 seasons and came back to new tyres, no testing, different race strategies (fuel, tyre), simulators which he hated, and to his strong, but younger rival drivers Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel, plus fast team-mate Rosberg.

Looking at how well Nuvolari, Villoresi, Sommer, Farina, Fangio did when aged in their forties, I thought Michael would beat Rosberg immediately. In December 2009 ex-F1 driver Peter de Klerk told me Michael would struggle in a comeback; he proved right. But by the third season Michael was as fast as Rosberg, and could have won Monaco (from pole) and scored a fine second in Canada when Button won after Vettel went off. All this in a Mercedes that was not yet fully sorted and not the fastest car. Seeing how close Rosberg has been to Hamilton in 2013-2016 makes one realise how good Schumcaher was in 2012.

Of all the great drivers, the two I'd like to have seen paired in same-team cars: Senna and Schumacher. Would have made Senna-Prost seem like Sunday School.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Badgeronimous »

Schumacher could always do an incredible stint during the refuelling era.

His ability to pull out a stint of near full qualifying pace, for multiple laps, is the best I've seen in 25yrs watching the sport.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Fiki »

Pole2Win wrote:So, in the event that the current generation of Vettel and Hamilton doesn't overtake his 7 WDC record, how do you think Schumi will go down in history 10, maybe 20 years from now?
Surely our appreciation of a skill set doesn't alter because a record gets overtaken? I think 10 or 20 years from now people will still think he was one of the best drivers in the history of F1.
I do think that if/when the time comes when a driver also scores 7 championships, the matter of cheating will resurface, and he/she might be considered the true record holder. And rightly so.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Pole2Win wrote:I feel very uncertain when someone speaks of Schumacher. I have a great deal of respect for him and his unquestionable talent. IMO he really is the best F1 driver ever and would've beaten Senna had the Brazilian survived the Imola GP in 1994. Of course, Benetton were blatant cheaters that season but it's difficult to speak of what would've happened, what Senna would do if he confirmed his suspicions, and so on.

However, I can't really forgive Schumi for various episodes throughout his career. 1994 was one thing, the attempt to take JV out in the 1997 decider was another, then obviously the later Ferrari days which were probably more due to the team than Schumi himself, and I don't think Barrichello is completely innocent either as I do believe he was bound by contract to playing the backup role and he accepted it willingly.

Even then, I found myself cheering for Schumi against Alonso in 2006 and again in 2010 when he came back driving for Mercedes. It's really weird, how Schumi went in my head. He was really bad (1994), then worse (1997), then I was awed by his performances (1998-2000), then I was bored by him (2001-2004), and finally began cheering for him again (2006, 2010 and beyond). It's a sign that there are definitely multiple facets to him and how complex he is. He was also never as ruthless in his private affairs as he was in racing either.

So, in the event that the current generation of Vettel and Hamilton doesn't overtake his 7 WDC record, how do you think Schumi will go down in history 10, maybe 20 years from now?
He had some awesome performances before the '98 season. People argue about the '96 or '97 being some of his best driving. And rightly so.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by slide »

the incident in 94 with hill was a racing incident! are you having a joke - Schumacher lost control in the corner. hit the Armco damaged his car and purposely drove into hill who did not lose control but was rammed by schmacher who had a broken front suspension and his race was finished - watch it again without your blinkers on I will never consider he had 7 titles

it worked so well for him he bashed jv too , but it didn't work that time , and the parking up on the corner in Monaco was completely false and cheating , but the sad thing is he had the talent to not have any need to cheat like this - he ruined his own legacy/history with these 3 incidents -did I miss any naughty moments

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by jimmyj »

I also love Schumi. He made me a passionate F1 fan for life. Yes, I hated what he did to JV that day, and it made me think less of him, but as the years pass that fades and my strong memory is of the greatness. I wish he was well.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

As time progresses on, people tend to forget his misdemeanors, so he will be remembered as one of the true greats.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Schumacher is clearly the driver of his generation, in fact, he defined it so much it was basically called "The Schumacher Era" - and he has all the records - most notably the 7 WDCs to cement his legacy as one of the contenders for Greatest Of All Time.

However, while there is nothing to call into doubt the quality of Schumacher as a driver, there is an argument to question the quality of his competition.

Whereas Schumacher dominated his time in the sport and it was not until he retired that a new generation filled that void, the period before that, the one Schumacher followed on from, had a host of great drivers, most notably Senna and Prost, with Mansell and Piquet following.

And while Schumacher did indeed outpace Nelson Piquet, that was a Piquet in his final season.

Piquet retired, then Mansell retired, then Prost retired, then Senna died. All the big names went one year after another meaning the 1994 was the only championship since the first where there was not a WDC in the field (first three races excepted)

That left Schumacher vs Williams, as as underrated as Damon Hill may well be, few are going to claim he was even close to level of the likes of Schumacher, Senna or Prost in talent.

The only driver which could be considered an equal during Schumacher's reign was Hakkinen, meaning until Alonso came along and did to Schumacher what Schumacher did to Piquet, Schumacher was either largely unchallenged by his peers, or was picking up WDCs as the next generation of Alonso and Kimi found their feet in the sport.

This is not to try and diminish Schumacher's legacy, but more, put into context the playground he had to set the multitude of records he holds.

I mean, let's say Senna had not died in 1994, it's likely Schumacher would hold at least 1 if not 2 less WDCs than he does today - he'd certainly have less wins. That could even have impacted his ability to attract the attention needed to take his team of people to Ferrari and operate with an unlimited budget.

Although, if he did fail to attract Ferrari's attention, that could have set into motion an even more dominating set of events for him:

The reason Ferrari funded the Schumacher project was because they recognised his skill differential to the rest of the grid - that might not have been as a apparent against Senna. Ironically, without the Ferrari interest, that could have seen Schumacher move to McLaren (as they were very interested in him,
and Mercedes would have definitely have financed him for marketing reasons) meaning Schuey and Newey would have got together - so maybe after Senna retired we could have have seen Schumacher walking away with nearly every WDC and mentoring Hamilton to replace him....

Anyway, while Schumacher is an all time great - maybe even the greatest - I think Alonso or Hamilton or Senna or Prost would have produced similar results against the competition he had.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Tufty »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:[...]Ironically, without the Ferrari interest, that could have seen Schumacher move to McLaren (as they were very interested in him,
and Mercedes would have definitely have financed him for marketing reasons) meaning Schuey and Newey would have got together - so maybe after Senna retired we could have have seen Schumacher walking away with nearly every WDC and mentoring Hamilton to replace him....
I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, although I do think that Senna would have struggled to carry anything but the 1994 Williams to a title that Schumacher won (and given Senna's start to the year, I'm not convinced he'd have been able to claw back the deficit without pushing the machinery beyond its tolerances, but that's a whole other debate). But I wanted to highlight this section, because I think it's worth exploring properly.

Let's assume that McLaren hired the two best drivers they could in 1996, and that there was no friction that caused a hugely different driver market to reality, so in effect Coulthard and Schumacher are the only changes we make to the 1996 line-up. DC alongside Irvine at Ferrari, who don't go on a massive spending splurge, a Benetton team who still fall a little behind Williams largely due to having a poorer chassis and drivers who were never quite WDC material (Alesi's legendary poor career choices notwithstanding), and Schumacher partnering Hakkinen at McLaren. 1996 will still be a lost year - as I recall, Ilmor hadn't yet got their hands on the Mercedes engine, and it was overweight and underpowered. So Hill takes that title - or maybe Senna does, retiring as champion and handing his car to the rookie Villeneuve for 1997. Hill sticks around at Williams because his lack of WDC means he doesn't demand more money than Williams are willing to pay. The 1997 title goes to Hill, although Villeneuve pushes him close. Without Schumacher, Ferrari finishes a distant second in the WCC, while McLaren struggle to score wins with their ongoing development.

The Newey effect comes in for 1998, and with him the MP4-13 is born. Schumacher and Hakkinen win every single race the car can finish between them, and Schumacher takes the title. A repeat occurs the following year, although for 2000 Williams is starting to develop into a force once more courtesy of BMW. Hakkinen retires a year earlier than he otherwise would have due to the stress of racing Schumacher in equal machinery, and Heidfeld is promoted in the interests of maintaining team harmony. Williams closes a little during 2001 but Schumacher takes his 6th title and a 7th in 2002, though Heidfeld manages a couple of wins as the McLaren's reliability lets him down. Come 2003, with Raikkonen swapping seats with Heidfeld, Schumacher is relying heavily on the appearance of the MP4-18, while the '17D just can't match the '18's potential. Montoya and Ralf Schumacher are setting the world on fire as well and both Williams drivers ensure the WCC goes to Grove rather than Woking, although Michael might be able to take the title despite reliability issues. So that's 8. For 2004, both McLaren and Williams get it wrong on the chassis front, and despite a valiant effort from Schumacher, along with Raikkonen who isn't that far off his pace, Button and BAR take the WDC while Sato's reliability woes (and, sorry to his fanatics, his relative lack of talent doesn't help - he's good, but not WDC material) also send the WCC to McLaren with Renault coming a close second.

2005 looms. Schumacher is very much the elder statesman, but he and Raikkonen are both lugging the McLaren around as the dominant car in about two thirds of the races, though reliability is woeful. Alonso, probably the best driver on the grid at this point, has a slower but more reliable car, and takes the 2005 crown. The same happens in 2006, only more easily as McLaren drop off the pace a little and there is no all-powerful Ferrari to take the fight to them.

Schumacher, deeply admiring Raikkonen in the same way as he did with Massa, elects to step aside for Hamilton for 2007, remaining as a team ambassador as he did with Ferrari in reality. Raikkonen lacking Alonso's ability (and desire) to blow up a team when things aren't going his way, and of course Spygate simply not happening since it's not worth stealing from Ferrari, Hamilton takes his first of two back to back titles, although Alonso replaces Raikkonen for 2008 after Renault disappoint in 2007. After two years at McLaren, the first in which the title could go either way and the second unfolding as it did in reality, Alonso heads to Ferrari to rebuild the team and Button goes to McLaren with the title. And history settles back into its natural order.

OK that went on a lot longer than I expected, sorry! I'm curious though, would this chain of events be more or less impressive than reality? What would it do for his legacy? And would he have returned in 2010? I'm thinking yes to the last of these, but the other two I'm not so sure.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

That's a fantastic narration Tufty!

I am wondering though, why did you exclude Ferrari so much out of the equation? Todt was at Ferrari, so you could bet your bottom dollar that he'd lure someone like Kimi or dare I say JV to race in his late father's team?

And where would Brawn and Byrne end up? They were game changers in their days...

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Tufty »

Siao7 wrote:That's a fantastic narration Tufty!

I am wondering though, why did you exclude Ferrari so much out of the equation? Todt was at Ferrari, so you could bet your bottom dollar that he'd lure someone like Kimi or dare I say JV to race in his late father's team?

And where would Brawn and Byrne end up? They were game changers in their days...
In reality they followed Schumi to Ferrari, so realistically they would have gone to McLaren as well. However, I don't think they'd have had as much influence as they liked under Dennis. I can see Todt going back to rallying, Brawn butting heads with Dennis but the two being a formidable pairing, and Byrne and Newey having a lot of arguments that may have resulted in compromises that allowed the MP4-18 to actually compete.

Bernie orchestrated a lot of the transfers to Ferrari, from memory [please correct me if I'm wrong there] so I think he'd have done the same to get McLaren back to the front of the field. I do agree though, just one of those people going somewhere other than where I suggested would have changed the theory dramatically. I just assumed the dream team either went to McLaren instead of Ferrari, or they ended up dispersed and none of them really able to use their talents as freely as they had when they were given free reins under Briatore.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Tufty wrote:
Siao7 wrote:That's a fantastic narration Tufty!

I am wondering though, why did you exclude Ferrari so much out of the equation? Todt was at Ferrari, so you could bet your bottom dollar that he'd lure someone like Kimi or dare I say JV to race in his late father's team?

And where would Brawn and Byrne end up? They were game changers in their days...
In reality they followed Schumi to Ferrari, so realistically they would have gone to McLaren as well. However, I don't think they'd have had as much influence as they liked under Dennis. I can see Todt going back to rallying, Brawn butting heads with Dennis but the two being a formidable pairing, and Byrne and Newey having a lot of arguments that may have resulted in compromises that allowed the MP4-18 to actually compete.

Bernie orchestrated a lot of the transfers to Ferrari, from memory [please correct me if I'm wrong there] so I think he'd have done the same to get McLaren back to the front of the field. I do agree though, just one of those people going somewhere other than where I suggested would have changed the theory dramatically. I just assumed the dream team either went to McLaren instead of Ferrari, or they ended up dispersed and none of them really able to use their talents as freely as they had when they were given free reins under Briatore.
Hmm, I agree. On paper, Newey, Brawn and Byrne sound like an even better dream team than Ferrari's. However, I think that as you say there could be problems, they'd have too many roosters basically... It may have backfired spectacularly. It may have also done the perfect season, with a 100% wins. We'll never know! How fascinating.

Todt would have done his part and I bet he would have brought the right people at Ferrari. Basically, the people that would have been dropped from Macca. It could still be a good car after all.

One thing that may have hampered Schumie would be the no No1 policy at Macca. Would he be at loggerheads with Dennis or would Macca have changed their policy? I mean, they did with Hamilton and Heiki, so why not?

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Tufty »

Siao7 wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Siao7 wrote:That's a fantastic narration Tufty!

I am wondering though, why did you exclude Ferrari so much out of the equation? Todt was at Ferrari, so you could bet your bottom dollar that he'd lure someone like Kimi or dare I say JV to race in his late father's team?

And where would Brawn and Byrne end up? They were game changers in their days...
In reality they followed Schumi to Ferrari, so realistically they would have gone to McLaren as well. However, I don't think they'd have had as much influence as they liked under Dennis. I can see Todt going back to rallying, Brawn butting heads with Dennis but the two being a formidable pairing, and Byrne and Newey having a lot of arguments that may have resulted in compromises that allowed the MP4-18 to actually compete.

Bernie orchestrated a lot of the transfers to Ferrari, from memory [please correct me if I'm wrong there] so I think he'd have done the same to get McLaren back to the front of the field. I do agree though, just one of those people going somewhere other than where I suggested would have changed the theory dramatically. I just assumed the dream team either went to McLaren instead of Ferrari, or they ended up dispersed and none of them really able to use their talents as freely as they had when they were given free reins under Briatore.
Hmm, I agree. On paper, Newey, Brawn and Byrne sound like an even better dream team than Ferrari's. However, I think that as you say there could be problems, they'd have too many roosters basically... It may have backfired spectacularly. It may have also done the perfect season, with a 100% wins. We'll never know! How fascinating.

Todt would have done his part and I bet he would have brought the right people at Ferrari. Basically, the people that would have been dropped from Macca. It could still be a good car after all.

One thing that may have hampered Schumie would be the no No1 policy at Macca. Would he be at loggerheads with Dennis or would Macca have changed their policy? I mean, they did with Hamilton and Heiki, so why not?
Todt wouldn't have got the big names, except maybe Byrne alone. I'll check when he retired and maybe amend my theory accordingly.

I don't think the equal treatment policy would have bothered Schumacher, he'd relish the challenge I think. And Dennis would have loved it, having the two best drivers of the time in Mclaren cars.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Tufty wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Siao7 wrote:That's a fantastic narration Tufty!

I am wondering though, why did you exclude Ferrari so much out of the equation? Todt was at Ferrari, so you could bet your bottom dollar that he'd lure someone like Kimi or dare I say JV to race in his late father's team?

And where would Brawn and Byrne end up? They were game changers in their days...
In reality they followed Schumi to Ferrari, so realistically they would have gone to McLaren as well. However, I don't think they'd have had as much influence as they liked under Dennis. I can see Todt going back to rallying, Brawn butting heads with Dennis but the two being a formidable pairing, and Byrne and Newey having a lot of arguments that may have resulted in compromises that allowed the MP4-18 to actually compete.

Bernie orchestrated a lot of the transfers to Ferrari, from memory [please correct me if I'm wrong there] so I think he'd have done the same to get McLaren back to the front of the field. I do agree though, just one of those people going somewhere other than where I suggested would have changed the theory dramatically. I just assumed the dream team either went to McLaren instead of Ferrari, or they ended up dispersed and none of them really able to use their talents as freely as they had when they were given free reins under Briatore.
Hmm, I agree. On paper, Newey, Brawn and Byrne sound like an even better dream team than Ferrari's. However, I think that as you say there could be problems, they'd have too many roosters basically... It may have backfired spectacularly. It may have also done the perfect season, with a 100% wins. We'll never know! How fascinating.

Todt would have done his part and I bet he would have brought the right people at Ferrari. Basically, the people that would have been dropped from Macca. It could still be a good car after all.

One thing that may have hampered Schumie would be the no No1 policy at Macca. Would he be at loggerheads with Dennis or would Macca have changed their policy? I mean, they did with Hamilton and Heiki, so why not?
Todt wouldn't have got the big names, except maybe Byrne alone. I'll check when he retired and maybe amend my theory accordingly.

I don't think the equal treatment policy would have bothered Schumacher, he'd relish the challenge I think. And Dennis would have loved it, having the two best drivers of the time in Mclaren cars.
I think Byrne retired and then came back at some point. I too think that Schumacher wouldn't mind the challenge, but we may have had more sparks than Senna & Prost, especially as Mika and Michael already had run ins since their lower formulae categories (didn't Schumacher block Hakkinen in Macau or something?). But Dennis had the experience of two divas in his cars, much bigger than Hakkinen and Schumacher at the time, so he would have dealt with it.

Aaaah, what it could have been!

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Tufty »

Right. Radical re-interpretation coming up - Byrne was at Ferrari between 1996 and 2006, so:

Let's assume as I said originally that Byrne goes to McLaren instead for 1996, but with Newey joining in 1997 tensions become intolerably high. These are kept just in check by the title in 1998 but by mid 1999 Byrne has had enough. As a result he joins the only other potentially competitive team in F1, Williams, before they get their new BMW engines. Working alongside Patrick Head, he brings Williams closer to the front of the field than they would have managed with just Head, but while they can make life difficult for Schumacher, McLaren and his various teammates, probably stealing a WCC here and there during the early years of the new millennium (sorry Heidfeld, you're not a strong enough driver to compete with Williams in this scenario) they ultimately can't beat Schumacher armed with some of Newey's finest work.

Of course, I could very easily be wrong here, all it takes is a tiny mistake by either team and it would flip everything on its head, but I'm having to play the odds here and assume that with such a high profile team there would be enough checks, balances and money to ensure no wrong turns.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Because Senna didn't have any dubious moments???

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Because Senna didn't have any dubious moments???
Sennas dubious moments ? Not sure what that has to do with my post; just my opinion

if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre French decent). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give enough room.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by A.J. »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Looks like you've come out of forum retirement solely to comment on Schumacher threads :)

As I said in another thread - "of course you're entitled to your opinion, but to compare a prime Schumacher from 1996-2000 with the 42 yr old Schumacher (who actually was still often faster than Rosberg in his prime) is pure lunacy.

A prime Schumacher losing out to Jenson Button as happened with Hamilton? No chance. Schumacher would wipe the floor with Hamilton if they were team-mates - not just because he is faster (I think they are fairly even on pace), but simply because he made the team his own in a way Hamilton can never dream of. People are living in denial if they think Hamilton has anywhere near the same work ethic that Schumacher demonstrated (flying off to test one day after the race? No problem. Need to try new parts tomorrow? Sure, on my way) - and this is without even thinking of the mental side of the game, where Schumacher is probably leagues above anyone else (and Hamilton is demonstrably weak)."

For me it is Schumacher followed by Clark followed by Senna - Hamilton doesn't even make my top 5.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by SR1 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Iirc, his only WDC teammate was an aged Nelson Piquet in 1991 (they competed over 6 races, Schumacher beaten on points). I agree Schumacher's "dirtier" antics exclude him from GOAT, but that should apply to Senna too. Deliberately crashing out title rivals, risking injury to fellow competitors in the process, for me, that's a mark against both of them.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

SR1 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:02 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Iirc, his only WDC teammate was an aged Nelson Piquet in 1991 (they competed over 6 races, Schumacher beaten on points). I agree Schumacher's "dirtier" antics exclude him from GOAT, but that should apply to Senna too. Deliberately crashing out title rivals, risking injury to fellow competitors in the process, for me, that's a mark against both of them.
I agree, Schumacher has never faced a top driver as his team mate.

As for your comment on Senna, and if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, it did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give Senna enough room going into the turn.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by A.J. »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:44 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:02 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Iirc, his only WDC teammate was an aged Nelson Piquet in 1991 (they competed over 6 races, Schumacher beaten on points). I agree Schumacher's "dirtier" antics exclude him from GOAT, but that should apply to Senna too. Deliberately crashing out title rivals, risking injury to fellow competitors in the process, for me, that's a mark against both of them.
I agree, Schumacher has never faced a top driver as his team mate.

As for your comment on Senna, and if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, it did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give Senna enough room going into the turn.
You are literally repeating yourself here - your previous post says the exact same thing.

There is no need to make excuses for Senna's behaviour - if you consider what Schumacher did in 97 as unfair, then you have to remember that he himself learnt this watching Senna's behaviour on track. This "going for a gap" quote is absolute nonsense - Senna was as much a dirty cheat as anyone else out there.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

A.J. wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:44 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:02 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Iirc, his only WDC teammate was an aged Nelson Piquet in 1991 (they competed over 6 races, Schumacher beaten on points). I agree Schumacher's "dirtier" antics exclude him from GOAT, but that should apply to Senna too. Deliberately crashing out title rivals, risking injury to fellow competitors in the process, for me, that's a mark against both of them.
I agree, Schumacher has never faced a top driver as his team mate.

As for your comment on Senna, and if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, it did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give Senna enough room going into the turn.
You are literally repeating yourself here - your previous post says the exact same thing.

There is no need to make excuses for Senna's behaviour - if you consider what Schumacher did in 97 as unfair, then you have to remember that he himself learnt this watching Senna's behaviour on track. This "going for a gap" quote is absolute nonsense - Senna was as much a dirty cheat as anyone else out there.
Yes, I posted it again because you did not reply to it. I have watched every race of Senna’s and I know that he is no dirty cheat. I quoted 89 & 90 as most people would immediately jump to it. Can you say where he was at fault or post any video where you can claim Senna deliberately rammed into someone.

Anyway, Senna never stooped to having illegal electronics as Schumacher did in 1994 or having WDC team mates.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by A.J. »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:44 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:02 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Iirc, his only WDC teammate was an aged Nelson Piquet in 1991 (they competed over 6 races, Schumacher beaten on points). I agree Schumacher's "dirtier" antics exclude him from GOAT, but that should apply to Senna too. Deliberately crashing out title rivals, risking injury to fellow competitors in the process, for me, that's a mark against both of them.
I agree, Schumacher has never faced a top driver as his team mate.

As for your comment on Senna, and if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, it did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give Senna enough room going into the turn.
You are literally repeating yourself here - your previous post says the exact same thing.

There is no need to make excuses for Senna's behaviour - if you consider what Schumacher did in 97 as unfair, then you have to remember that he himself learnt this watching Senna's behaviour on track. This "going for a gap" quote is absolute nonsense - Senna was as much a dirty cheat as anyone else out there.
Yes, I posted it again because you did not reply to it. I have watched every race of Senna’s and I know that he is no dirty cheat. I quoted 89 & 90 as most people would immediately jump to it. Can you say where he was at fault or post any video where you can claim Senna deliberately rammed into someone.

Anyway, Senna never stooped to having illegal electronics as Schumacher did in 1994 or having WDC team mates.
You've clearly been away for too long if you are unable to tell who you've been responding to - I didn't reply to it because it wasn't addressed to me or in response to what I said. Perhaps nobody else felt the need to respond as it is an inane argument.

You want videos of Senna crashing into someone deliberately? There's this new tool called Google - try it. You just need to type "Senna crashes deliberately" or variations thereof into it, and you will find plenty of videos. Try removing the "Senna can do no wrong" glasses prior to this for better results.

"Schumacher stooped to having illegal electronics" - what in the world are you on about? How does one "stoop to" having illegal electronics? That devious Michael, bringing the sport into disrepute with all his programming skills like he is Bill Gates or something. :nod:

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:55 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:44 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:02 pm


Iirc, his only WDC teammate was an aged Nelson Piquet in 1991 (they competed over 6 races, Schumacher beaten on points). I agree Schumacher's "dirtier" antics exclude him from GOAT, but that should apply to Senna too. Deliberately crashing out title rivals, risking injury to fellow competitors in the process, for me, that's a mark against both of them.
I agree, Schumacher has never faced a top driver as his team mate.

As for your comment on Senna, and if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, it did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give Senna enough room going into the turn.
You are literally repeating yourself here - your previous post says the exact same thing.

There is no need to make excuses for Senna's behaviour - if you consider what Schumacher did in 97 as unfair, then you have to remember that he himself learnt this watching Senna's behaviour on track. This "going for a gap" quote is absolute nonsense - Senna was as much a dirty cheat as anyone else out there.
Yes, I posted it again because you did not reply to it. I have watched every race of Senna’s and I know that he is no dirty cheat. I quoted 89 & 90 as most people would immediately jump to it. Can you say where he was at fault or post any video where you can claim Senna deliberately rammed into someone.

Anyway, Senna never stooped to having illegal electronics as Schumacher did in 1994 or having WDC team mates.
You've clearly been away for too long if you are unable to tell who you've been responding to - I didn't reply to it because it wasn't addressed to me or in response to what I said. Perhaps nobody else felt the need to respond as it is an inane argument.

You want videos of Senna crashing into someone deliberately? There's this new tool called Google - try it. You just need to type "Senna crashes deliberately" or variations thereof into it, and you will find plenty of videos. Try removing the "Senna can do no wrong" glasses prior to this for better results.

"Schumacher stooped to having illegal electronics" - what in the world are you on about? How does one "stoop to" having illegal electronics? That devious Michael, bringing the sport into disrepute with all his programming skills like he is Bill Gates or something. :nod:
I posted the same post twice because the point was the same, it was not inane.

Anyway, I am a certified python expert and I am aware of google, and any search that says “ Senna deliberate crash” only pulls up 1989 and 1990. Can you tell me how that is deliberate? I have already shared my thoughts on the two incidents.

As for 94, it wasn’t funny. Flavio admitted that they had LC/TC which was activated by a series of paddle shifts. Why was it there ? Senna in Brazil that year was convinced that Schumacher was cheating and had illegal control systems in their b94. He was trackside listening to Schumachers car and knew it. Senna never had illegal driver aids in his car.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Because Senna didn't have any dubious moments???
Sennas dubious moments ? Not sure what that has to do with my post; just my opinion

if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre French decent). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give enough room.
Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:55 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:44 am


I agree, Schumacher has never faced a top driver as his team mate.

As for your comment on Senna, and if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, it did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give Senna enough room going into the turn.
You are literally repeating yourself here - your previous post says the exact same thing.

There is no need to make excuses for Senna's behaviour - if you consider what Schumacher did in 97 as unfair, then you have to remember that he himself learnt this watching Senna's behaviour on track. This "going for a gap" quote is absolute nonsense - Senna was as much a dirty cheat as anyone else out there.
Yes, I posted it again because you did not reply to it. I have watched every race of Senna’s and I know that he is no dirty cheat. I quoted 89 & 90 as most people would immediately jump to it. Can you say where he was at fault or post any video where you can claim Senna deliberately rammed into someone.

Anyway, Senna never stooped to having illegal electronics as Schumacher did in 1994 or having WDC team mates.
You've clearly been away for too long if you are unable to tell who you've been responding to - I didn't reply to it because it wasn't addressed to me or in response to what I said. Perhaps nobody else felt the need to respond as it is an inane argument.

You want videos of Senna crashing into someone deliberately? There's this new tool called Google - try it. You just need to type "Senna crashes deliberately" or variations thereof into it, and you will find plenty of videos. Try removing the "Senna can do no wrong" glasses prior to this for better results.

"Schumacher stooped to having illegal electronics" - what in the world are you on about? How does one "stoop to" having illegal electronics? That devious Michael, bringing the sport into disrepute with all his programming skills like he is Bill Gates or something. :nod:
I posted the same post twice because the point was the same, it was not inane.

Anyway, I am a certified python expert and I am aware of google, and any search that says “ Senna deliberate crash” only pulls up 1989 and 1990. Can you tell me how that is deliberate? I have already shared my thoughts on the two incidents.

As for 94, it wasn’t funny. Flavio admitted that they had LC/TC which was activated by a series of paddle shifts. Why was it there ? Senna in Brazil that year was convinced that Schumacher was cheating and had illegal control systems in their b94. He was trackside listening to Schumachers car and knew it. Senna never had illegal driver aids in his car.
Mate Senna literally came out and admitted that 1990 was deliberate and premeditated. The only premeditated move as such that we know of.

Flavio did not admit anything, the computer software company hired by the FIA found the hidden software. Also, it was not an illegal driver aid, you should read Toet's article. Frankly, you should get your facts right as we are recycling the same things now.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:20 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Because Senna didn't have any dubious moments???
Sennas dubious moments ? Not sure what that has to do with my post; just my opinion

if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre French decent). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give enough room.
Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!
Why did they change the racing line after qualifying?
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Anyway, I am not here to recycle anything. I don't think Senna and Schumacher are in the same level, just my opinion.

Regards,
RV
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

Siao7
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:20 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
Because Senna didn't have any dubious moments???
Sennas dubious moments ? Not sure what that has to do with my post; just my opinion

if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre French decent). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give enough room.
Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!
Why did they change the racing line after qualifying?
You got your story wrong. The pole was always on the same side for years (it is easy to see the starts of the races from '88, '89, etc. on youtube, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Gw7fc ... munication and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-sAOj ... yrtonSenna).

It's just that because Senna had made a mess from the pole the years before, he wanted it changed. The narrative that the FIA changed the pole side to mess with Senna is a false one.

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:04 am
Anyway, I am not here to recycle anything. I don't think Senna and Schumacher are in the same level, just my opinion.

Regards,
RV
And that's fine.

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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:18 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:20 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:36 pm


Because Senna didn't have any dubious moments???
Sennas dubious moments ? Not sure what that has to do with my post; just my opinion

if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre French decent). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give enough room.
Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!
Why did they change the racing line after qualifying?
You got your story wrong. The pole was always on the same side for years (it is easy to see the starts of the races from '88, '89, etc. on youtube, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Gw7fc ... munication and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-sAOj ... yrtonSenna).

It's just that because Senna had made a mess from the pole the years before, he wanted it changed. The narrative that the FIA changed the pole side to mess with Senna is a false one.
I am hearing your version for the first time.

Then, why did Senna say that "you bust your balls to get pole' and then they do this.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

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Sennas dubious moments ? Not sure what that has to do with my post; just my opinion

if you are referring to Suzuka 90, it was because of them changing the pole position. He should have had the lead going into the turn, it was a case of deliberate planning by the FIA (Balestre French decent). So, he held the line going in.

If you are referring to 1989, there was a gap, he took it, did not work out, DQ’ing him from the entire race was unfair. I always felt that it was Prost who did not give enough room.
Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!
Why did they change the racing line after qualifying?
You got your story wrong. The pole was always on the same side for years (it is easy to see the starts of the races from '88, '89, etc. on youtube, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Gw7fc ... munication and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-sAOj ... yrtonSenna).

It's just that because Senna had made a mess from the pole the years before, he wanted it changed. The narrative that the FIA changed the pole side to mess with Senna is a false one.
I am hearing your version for the first time.

Then, why did Senna say that "you bust your balls to get pole' and then they do this.
To my understanding, Senna knew the pole position was on the dirty side. He had fudged up the last two starts from there, while Berger did ok in 1987. It was something reasonable if you think about it, you bust your balls to get pole and the pole is on the dirty side. It's similar to Bottas preferring to go P3 instead of P2 in Bahrain, as P3 would give him a better chance.

The problem is that Senna went to the track officials and asked for the pole to be changed. They seem to have agreed, but it's like asking the waiter to change the menu on the restaurant because it's not to your liking; it's not them who make these decisions. So Senna believed that he got the pole changed, when in reality nothing as such was formally agreed. He then made a fuss that Balestre overturned the decision, when Balestre only gave an order that the pole will not change on the 11th hour. Senna also had bad blood with Balestre from the year before and saw red afterwards. The rest is history

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