Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

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Invade
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Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Not sure what window of time you guys want to use but I think a two-season timeframe is quite reasonable.

But in whichever way you want to slice it, who do you think are the best qualifiers in F1 today?

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Well, Russell has impressed me a lot.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:56 pm
Well, Russell has impressed me a lot.
Same - though in recent races his gap to Latifi has been diminishing substantially. Is that a case of Latifi getting up to speed? Regardless though of how one views Latifi and Kubica as teammates, you need serious qualifying consistency to whitewash your teammate throughout the course of a season, and Russell is on course to do that twice in a row :!:

It seems Russell never has a "bad" Saturday.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Based on a combination of cross comparisons and gut feeling:

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Leclerc
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

I think that Max has about a tenth over the rest of the grid in equal machinery.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:21 pm
Based on a combination of cross comparisons and gut feeling:

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Leclerc
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

I think that Max has about a tenth over the rest of the grid in equal machinery.
That's also exactly my order based on 2020 form thus far. Probably holds quite well for too for 2019. I suspect Russell will at least bump Ricciardo given time.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

There’s naturally a lot of uncertainly surrounding Russell. Do we really know how good he is when his only opponents are a post-injury Kubica and Lattifi?

I remember reading a piece of Mark Hughes some time ago, where he said that he spoke to some Williams engineers who claimed that Russell would beat even peak Kubica. Russell is apparently exceptionally good at driving around handling imbalances, a handy trait when driving an FW42.

But again, I don’t know how much truth there really is to that.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Asphalt_World »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:36 pm
There’s naturally a lot of uncertainly surrounding Russell. Do we really know how good he is when his only opponents are a post-injury Kubica and Lattifi?

I remember reading a piece of Mark Hughes some time ago, where he said that he spoke to some Williams engineers who claimed that Russell would beat even peak Kubica. Russell is apparently exceptionally good at driving around handling imbalances, a handy trait when driving an FW42.

But again, I don’t know how much truth there really is to that.
Those in the know will all tell you that the Williams has significant issues and I've read too many good things about Russell's speed these past two seasons, to not give him a lot of credit for what he's done so far. Of course, we need to see him in a decent car to see how good he could end up being but early signs are good I think.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:36 pm
There’s naturally a lot of uncertainly surrounding Russell. Do we really know how good he is when his only opponents are a post-injury Kubica and Lattifi?

I remember reading a piece of Mark Hughes some time ago, where he said that he spoke to some Williams engineers who claimed that Russell would beat even peak Kubica. Russell is apparently exceptionally good at driving around handling imbalances, a handy trait when driving an FW42.

But again, I don’t know how much truth there really is to that.
Just look at how Kubica performs in DTM (touring car prototypes). He is almost always dead last - and with some distance, too.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:21 pm
Based on a combination of cross comparisons and gut feeling:

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Leclerc
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

I think that Max has about a tenth over the rest of the grid in equal machinery.
This is probably the best list based on the information, and gut feeling, we have.

I think there may be very little in the difference between 2nd and 4th. I also think Leclerc has the most upside here - he could be far faster than what we currently think.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Tufty »

Invade wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:03 pm
It seems Russell never has a "bad" Saturday.
I'd say he had a bad day today. So the question is, is he so exceptional over a hot lap that he can go off and not lose much, or is Latifi just another Chilton, slow but good at avoiding crashes?
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by schumilegend »

1) Verstappen
2) Leclerc
3) Hamilton
4) Ricciardo
5) Russel
6) Norris
7) SainZ
8)Bottas
9) Vettel
10) Perez

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Exediron »

Are we talking about absolute qualifying ability (e.g. who would win if they all delivered their perfect lap in an identical car setup perfectly to their liking) or relative ability (whose talent for qualifying is the most outstanding relative to their own ability level)?

I would say that in terms of absolute ability, it is almost certainly the trio of Verstappen, Leclerc, and Hamilton, one of whom is almost certainly the best driver on the grid at present -- but without good direct comparisons, we're left to guess which one. I'm not as certain of Verstappen's outright speed as many respondents seem to be.

In terms of relative ability -- which I find to be more interesting -- I think the order changes substantially. For example, despite his vast margin in the overall pole positions record table, I don't consider Hamilton to be a particularly good qualifier relative to his ability level. Hamilton's strengths are his relentless race pace and wet weather dominance, not his qualifying (although he does produce one or two truly spectacular qualifying laps per year).

In terms of relative ability, I think Leclerc, Bottas, and probably Russell are the standouts.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

schumilegend wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:35 am
1) Verstappen
2) Leclerc
3) Hamilton
4) Ricciardo
5) Russel
6) Norris
7) SainZ
8)Bottas
9) Vettel
10) Perez
I don't think that Norris or Sainz have done anything to suggest that they are strong qualifiers, the acid test for both will come next season.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Siao7 »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:21 pm
Based on a combination of cross comparisons and gut feeling:

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Leclerc
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

I think that Max has about a tenth over the rest of the grid in equal machinery.
This sounds about right.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Post moved from "Which team has the best driver pairing" : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16244
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Post moved from "Which team has the best driver pairing" : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16244
JN23 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:37 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:01 pm
This is the closest this forum has ever reached to a consensus. The ranking distribution is pretty much as uniform as is possible with this type of poll.
Red Bull Racing1.67
Mercedes 2.36
Ferrari3.27
McLaren3.76
Alpine4.7
Aston Martin5.88
Alpha Tauri7.06
Alfa Romeo8.09
Williams8.52
Haas9.7
This means there were some rankings that didn't have Haas last. I can't see an argument for them not being last personally, but would be interested to hear the logic of anyone who didn't rank them last.
It is possible to figure it out, as certain positions average are skewed relative to their integer position.

If a team has a lower numberr than its position, it means there are more votes ahead of that position than there are behind it. That's how you could tell Haas had one non 10th selection.

Williams at 8.5 is substantially ahead, but Alfa Romeo at 8.09 has more votes behind 8 than ahead of it, likewise for Alfa Tauri. I would hypothesise therefore that Alfa Romeo has a several 7/10s, with Alpha Tauri having a few 8/10s, but Alpha Romeo may have that rogue 10th place (unless a Verstappen or Hamilton fan stuck the rival's team in 10th just to try and skew the average)

Aston Martin, Alpine and McLaren are also ahead of their places, while the top 3 are slightly behind.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Post moved from "Which team has the best driver pairing" : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16244
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.
.
Korea 2011. Singapore 2018. Styria 2020. That he has as many poles as Schumacher and Rosberg combined. Or Senna and Prost combined. Did you watch Formula 1 before 2014? During the Vettel years Hamilton pulled out some insane qualifying laps, especially during 2011 when the Red Bull got all but one pole - alongside Korea, Malaysia 2011 and Germany 2011 were incredible performances.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Post moved from "Which team has the best driver pairing" : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16244
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.
.
Korea 2011. Singapore 2018. Styria 2020. That he has as many poles as Schumacher and Rosberg combined. Or Senna and Prost combined. Did you watch Formula 1 before 2014? During the Vettel years Hamilton pulled out some insane qualifying laps, especially during 2011 when the Red Bull got all but one pole - alongside Korea, Malaysia 2011 and Germany 2011 were incredible performances.
I don't understand your comment - yeah, Hamilton is a very good qualifier, and he's able to frequently put great laps together in qualifying. So? It's possible to still be massively overrated based on his stats alone, as you have also displayed in your own comment (more poles than Senna and Prost combined - er, ok, but how is that even remotely an argument when the circumstances are so different? I'm sure if Senna was driving the Mercs from 2014 on he would have more poles than Hamilton - this is just a bizarre comment).

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

I've seen some discussion on this recently, so thought it might be a good time to bump this thread.

Who is underrated?

Who is overrated?

Does the opinion of this forum reflect reality more accurately, given that we are upstanding experts of the universe?

There is no poll here. Perhaps someone who is into polls can make one. Sounds like an idea.

***

BTW, after the season ended, on my amateur spreadsheets, Verstappen ended up with the highest average score and Leclerc with the most standout performances (maximum possible score).

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I think the case for Verstappen being the best qualifier is weak given that his team make deprived him from being the youngest qualifier in the sports history. He also bottled it in Styria and Istanbul this year.

While I was aboard the Verstappen hype train as F1’s next generation’s superstar, 2020 has shifted that to Leclerc who I think is the sports fastest driver on raw pace.

Hamilton is difficult to judge now, as common wisdom would suggest that in his 30s he is no longer as fast on raw pace as in his 30s, but at the same time he has become more Prost like in his approach to F1, focusing on the big picture so it’s difficult to know where his pace would be if he reverted to his early career mentality.

Russell also has to get a mention for his Williams clean sheet, Latifi getting closer is a measure of Latifi improving and not Russell getting slower.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:14 pm
I think the case for Verstappen being the best qualifier is weak given that his team make deprived him from being the youngest qualifier in the sports history. He also bottled it in Styria and Istanbul this year.

While I was aboard the Verstappen hype train as F1’s next generation’s superstar, 2020 has shifted that to Leclerc who I think is the sports fastest driver on raw pace.

Hamilton is difficult to judge now, as common wisdom would suggest that in his 30s he is no longer as fast on raw pace as in his 30s, but at the same time he has become more Prost like in his approach to F1, focusing on the big picture so it’s difficult to know where his pace would be if he reverted to his early career mentality.

Russell also has to get a mention for his Williams clean sheet, Latifi getting closer is a measure of Latifi improving and not Russell getting slower.
I reckon Verstappen has a strong case because of how he's been pounding his teammates. He was still one of the best qualifiers at the Styrian GP but lost control when trying to pull out all the stops to beat Mercedes. He was bested by Hamilton, clearly so. It was one of Lewis' all-time performances. It's true that Verstappen hasn't maximised the few opportunities he's had to perhaps nab pole position, Turkey being another prime example as you said.

Hamilton isn't beating his teammates with anything like the sort of gaps Verstappen and Leclerc are, and Leclerc gapped Vettel of all people, which is mightily impressive. The question then becomes: how strong were Rosberg and Bottas as qualifiers? And, to be fair, they're both pretty strong in that area.

Verstappen for now appears to get nervous when the chance for pole is actually there. I'm not sure it's indicative of that being a feature going forward. Perhaps it's just a result of the dynamics of his situation, where the opportunities have come up so sparingly. He was clearly faster than Ricciardo in 2018, yet when the chance was there it was Ricciardo who proved the ultimate opportunist, clutching out pole with a great lap at the Mexican GP.

It will be interesting to see once again just how severely Verstappen defeats his teammate again on average this year. I reckon Perez is going to be in for an exceptionally hard time. As you said elsewhere, Max is relentless, and that means he's producing a very steady level which is also very high. Hard to see where Perez will get a look-in, really.

I believe Verstappen has a chance to retire with some of the most dominant qualifying stats in F1 history regarding teammate comparison.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:14 pm
I think the case for Verstappen being the best qualifier is weak given that his team make deprived him from being the youngest qualifier in the sports history. He also bottled it in Styria and Istanbul this year.
The reason why I prefer this forum over Autosport or Reddit despite its relatively small size is because the level of discussion on here is much higher. Most posters on here are beyond the stage of where they judge drivers by single qualifying or race performances.

Anyway, Verstappen’s qualifying record since the beginning of 2017 is immaculate. What he did to Ricciardo at the age of 20 was nothing short of phenomenal.

I will go for:

1. Verstappen
2. Leclerc
3. Hamilton
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

Based on a combination of gut feeling and cross comparisons.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:14 pm
I think the case for Verstappen being the best qualifier is weak given that his team make deprived him from being the youngest qualifier in the sports history. He also bottled it in Styria and Istanbul this year.
The reason why I prefer this forum over Autosport or Reddit despite its relatively small size is because the level of discussion on here is much higher. Most posters on here are beyond the stage of where they judge drivers by single qualifying or race performances.

Anyway, Verstappen’s qualifying record since the beginning of 2017 is immaculate. What he did to Ricciardo at the age of 20 was nothing short of phenomenal.

I will go for:

1. Verstappen
2. Leclerc
3. Hamilton
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

Based on a combination of gut feeling and cross comparisons.
Max Verstappen since 2017: "has been flawless in Qualifying"

Also Max Verstappen since 2017: has failed to convert 3 out of 6 genuine pole position opportunities.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:11 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:14 pm
I think the case for Verstappen being the best qualifier is weak given that his team make deprived him from being the youngest qualifier in the sports history. He also bottled it in Styria and Istanbul this year.
The reason why I prefer this forum over Autosport or Reddit despite its relatively small size is because the level of discussion on here is much higher. Most posters on here are beyond the stage of where they judge drivers by single qualifying or race performances.

Anyway, Verstappen’s qualifying record since the beginning of 2017 is immaculate. What he did to Ricciardo at the age of 20 was nothing short of phenomenal.

I will go for:

1. Verstappen
2. Leclerc
3. Hamilton
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

Based on a combination of gut feeling and cross comparisons.
Max Verstappen since 2017: "has been flawless in Qualifying"

Also Max Verstappen since 2017: has failed to convert 3 out of 6 genuine pole position opportunities.
Judging a driver based on pole position conversion rate is inherently flawed when that driver drives a car that is rarely in contention for pole. It’s far more accurate to judge a driver based on how well they do against their teammates on average.

Anyway, do you know how many times Hamilton has failed to take pole position since 2014 against his teammate? 42. If Verstappen losing pole position 3 times against his teammate disqualifies him from the discussion as best qualifier on the grid, then what do you make of Hamilton’s record of 42 in the hybrid era alone?

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:44 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:11 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:14 pm
I think the case for Verstappen being the best qualifier is weak given that his team make deprived him from being the youngest qualifier in the sports history. He also bottled it in Styria and Istanbul this year.
The reason why I prefer this forum over Autosport or Reddit despite its relatively small size is because the level of discussion on here is much higher. Most posters on here are beyond the stage of where they judge drivers by single qualifying or race performances.

Anyway, Verstappen’s qualifying record since the beginning of 2017 is immaculate. What he did to Ricciardo at the age of 20 was nothing short of phenomenal.

I will go for:

1. Verstappen
2. Leclerc
3. Hamilton
4. Ricciardo
5. Russell

Based on a combination of gut feeling and cross comparisons.
Max Verstappen since 2017: "has been flawless in Qualifying"

Also Max Verstappen since 2017: has failed to convert 3 out of 6 genuine pole position opportunities.
Judging a driver based on pole position conversion rate is inherently flawed when that driver drives a car that is rarely in contention for pole. It’s far more accurate to judge a driver based on how well they do against their teammates on average.

Anyway, do you know how many times Hamilton has failed to take pole position since 2014 against his teammate? 42. If Verstappen losing pole position 3 times against his teammate disqualifies him from the discussion as best qualifier on the grid, then what do you make of Hamilton’s record of 42 in the hybrid era alone?
1. I never claimed Hamilton had been flawless
2. Even if I had done, 42 / 118 races is a smaller percentage than 50%
3. My point is that Verstappen has developed a history of bottling it when the few opportunities present themselves, he's competent when the stakes aren't high, but as soon as the pole position is within his grasp he starts to falter. I think converting pole positions is probably the single most important quality for someone to be considered a qualifying specialist.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

I've just done a quick calculation and found that Mercedes have taken 109 pole positions in the hybrid era. In that time, Hamilton has 67 poles while his teammates have 42 poles. In other words, Hamilton has converted about 61.47% of his opportunities.

Red Bull have 6 pole positions in the hybrid era and Verstappen has converted 3. However, 6 is a very small sample size, especially since one of those is Monaco 2016 (when Max was 18 years old and in his second weekend at Red Bull).

Too small of a sample size to definitively label Verstappen as a bottler in qualifying. Let's not forget that in 2 of his 3 pole positions, Mercedes had the fastest car (Hungary 2019 and Abu Dhabi 2020).

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by KingVoid »

Post moved from "Which team has the best driver pairing" : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16244
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:13 pm
Korea 2011. Singapore 2018. Styria 2020. That he has as many poles as Schumacher and Rosberg combined. Or Senna and Prost combined. Did you watch Formula 1 before 2014? During the Vettel years Hamilton pulled out some insane qualifying laps, especially during 2011 when the Red Bull got all but one pole - alongside Korea, Malaysia 2011 and Germany 2011 were incredible performances.
If you want to make a case for Hamilton as the greatest qualifier of all time, 2011 is not a season you should be bringing up.

The fact that Korea was his only pole position that season was a very underwhelming return. McLaren had the car to take numerous poles that year. Japan, Abu Dhabi and Hungary are the most obvious examples. Japan in particular should have easily been McLaren's pole. Vettel simply mugged him that season.

Also, Hamilton's' median qualifying gap over Button in 2011 was also fairly underwhelming, and smaller than both 2010 and 2012.

Hamilton's best seasons in terms of one lap pace were 2010, 2012 and 2015-2018.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:43 am
I've just done a quick calculation and found that Mercedes have taken 109 pole positions in the hybrid era. In that time, Hamilton has 67 poles while his teammates have 42 poles. In other words, Hamilton has converted about 61.47% of his opportunities.

Red Bull have 6 pole positions in the hybrid era and Verstappen has converted 3. However, 6 is a very small sample size, especially since one of those is Monaco 2016 (when Max was 18 years old and in his second weekend at Red Bull).

Too small of a sample size to definitively label Verstappen as a bottler in qualifying. Let's not forget that in 2 of his 3 pole positions, Mercedes had the fastest car (Hungary 2019 and Abu Dhabi 2020).
Which 2020 season did you watch where Mercedes were faster in Abu Dhabi in a car they hadn't developed since Monza? I think there is even a case for Red Bull having a faster car in the previous race too, but I am giving Max the benefit of the doubt and not counting Sakhir as another he let slip through his fingers - although he certainly should have beaten Russell that weekend given that Russell was wearing boots too small for his feet, was crammed in the car that was too small for him with a higher center of gravity that certainly did his neck no favours going around the corners. The way Max retired from the race also was indicative of Max's mental game getting on top of him when presented with a golden opportunity and bottling it when it starts to fall through his fingers.

We also have no clue as to whether Verstappen was maximising the car the last two seasons because he was paired with underperforming and inexperienced drivers. Verstappen's strength is not in qualifying - although he is certainly a very strong qualifier. Ricciardo showed what Max lacks in qualifying when he deprived him of becoming the youngest polesitter in F1 history.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Post moved from "Which team has the best driver pairing" : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16244
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:51 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:13 pm
Korea 2011. Singapore 2018. Styria 2020. That he has as many poles as Schumacher and Rosberg combined. Or Senna and Prost combined. Did you watch Formula 1 before 2014? During the Vettel years Hamilton pulled out some insane qualifying laps, especially during 2011 when the Red Bull got all but one pole - alongside Korea, Malaysia 2011 and Germany 2011 were incredible performances.
If you want to make a case for Hamilton as the greatest qualifier of all time, 2011 is not a season you should be bringing up.

The fact that Korea was his only pole position that season was a very underwhelming return. McLaren had the car to take numerous poles that year. Japan, Abu Dhabi and Hungary are the most obvious examples. Japan in particular should have easily been McLaren's pole. Vettel simply mugged him that season.

Also, Hamilton's' median qualifying gap over Button in 2011 was also fairly underwhelming, and smaller than both 2010 and 2012.

Hamilton's best seasons in terms of one lap pace were 2010, 2012 and 2015-2018.
Where was I saying Hamilton was the greatest qualifier at all time, I was arguing against the point that Hamilton was 'overrated' at qualifying.

Red Bull in 2011 was their most dominant season, it had the pace advantage of their 2010 car but without the reliability problems.

Hamilton's main problems in 2011 were in the races, and for race results it is almost certainly his weakest season. The 2011 car was also highly compromised due to its exhaust concept failing and McLaren having to revert to a more standard design that the car was not optimised for.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

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Mercedes was the fastest car in all three sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, it’s just that neither of their drivers put together a lap as good as the one Verstappen did. On that Saturday afternoon Mercedes had the best car but not the best driver.

Verstappen vs Russell in Sakhir is a completely irrelevant comparison. They don’t even drive the same car. The only thing Russell showed in Sakhir is that looking good in a Mercedes is not particularly difficult, and neither is beating Bottas.

Anyway, now that Verstappen has a teammate who is fairly comparable to Bottas in terms of ability, there will be no more excuses. I am fairly relaxed, we will get so many answers this season.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:08 am
Mercedes was the fastest car in all three sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, it’s just that neither of their drivers put together a lap as good as the one Verstappen did. On that Saturday afternoon Mercedes had the best car but not the best driver.

Verstappen vs Russell in Sakhir is a completely irrelevant comparison. They don’t even drive the same car. The only thing Russell showed in Sakhir is that looking good in a Mercedes is not particularly difficult, and neither is beating Bottas.

Anyway, now that Verstappen has a teammate who is fairly comparable to Bottas in terms of ability, there will be no more excuses. I am fairly relaxed, we will get so many answers this season.
When I have it within a tenth, I tend to mark pace as equal. But if I have to err toward one side with the advantage of that tenth or less, then I do think Mercedes probably had it for qualifying. However...

I don't know the details of who put in those fastest sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, but I don't think that's always slam dunk logic for coming to the conclusion. In a basic sense, we could suppose that Mercedes had two drivers capable of bringing out the car's potential and Red Bull only one. Perhaps if we swapped Albon with Bottas, the fastest sector data would look different. Of course, perhaps Bottas wouldn't touch Verstappen even over many runs and selective sectors and it would have been the same.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Would Verstappen have been rated in the top 5 qualifiers 2 seasons in, with better evidence than Russell has due to beign more mixed in the pack against a better team mate? I don't think so. He needed more time to prove himself. Russell has been against by far the worst qualifier on the grid in 2019 then probably the worst again the following year. His gap again was huge, but I don't think we have enough to confirm he's a top 5 qualifier. I would say it is all a bit speculative really. I am very harsh on Russell, but mostly because I think he gets too much praise without enough evidence to backup how good he really is.

Grosjean destroyed Maldonado in qualifying in 2014 and 2015. Maldonado only beat Grosjean twice in 2015, and one was when Grosjean hit trouble. Only 8 times in total out of around 40 sessions.While that is a lot more than Russell got beaten (which was never) Mandonado wasn't a rookie like latifi and I don't think he was even close to being as weak as Kubica on a saturday.
Was Grosjean a qualifier on Russell's level based on these 2 seasons? He even managed to get that awful Louts to P5 in Spain 2014. I honestly think this is a valid comparison to Russell. Having an underwhelming team mate doesn't prove that much for your qualifying ability as you can't prove how good the car actually is. I doubt people would have considered Grosjean a top qualifier based on just these two seasons somehow.

If P5 is purely guessing, then I think that is fair enough. But I would say Russell is currently just too unknown to confirm positions in the rankings for things like qualifying.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Invade wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:15 am
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:08 am
Mercedes was the fastest car in all three sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, it’s just that neither of their drivers put together a lap as good as the one Verstappen did. On that Saturday afternoon Mercedes had the best car but not the best driver.

Verstappen vs Russell in Sakhir is a completely irrelevant comparison. They don’t even drive the same car. The only thing Russell showed in Sakhir is that looking good in a Mercedes is not particularly difficult, and neither is beating Bottas.

Anyway, now that Verstappen has a teammate who is fairly comparable to Bottas in terms of ability, there will be no more excuses. I am fairly relaxed, we will get so many answers this season.
When I have it within a tenth, I tend to mark pace as equal. But if I have to err toward one side with the advantage of that tenth or less, then I do think Mercedes probably had it for qualifying. However...

I don't know the details of who put in those fastest sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, but I don't think that's always slam dunk logic for coming to the conclusion. In a basic sense, we could suppose that Mercedes had two drivers capable of bringing out the car's potential and Red Bull only one. Perhaps if we swapped Albon with Bottas, the fastest sector data would look different. Of course, perhaps Bottas wouldn't touch Verstappen even over many runs and selective sectors and it would have been the same.
Using sector data as anything other than an approximation is lazy analysis, and it takes only a modicum of critical thinking to figure that out. For example, driver A could use all their battery deployment in sector 1, while driver B could use it all in sector 2. Those sectors would be much faster but it would be impossible to do both in one flying laps. Or maybe a driver takes a slower line through the end of sector 2 to get a better sector 3 time. The teams don't use the 3 sector data, they break the circuit into micro sectors and analyse by that - that's why the driver has a continuous delta of how well they are doing compared to their previous best lap. The 3 sector system is just there to give TV some drama for the less informed viewing public.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:27 am
Would Verstappen have been rated in the top 5 qualifiers 2 seasons in, with better evidence than Russell has due to beign more mixed in the pack against a better team mate? I don't think so. He needed more time to prove himself. Russell has been against by far the worst qualifier on the grid in 2019 then probably the worst again the following year. His gap again was huge, but I don't think we have enough to confirm he's a top 5 qualifier. I would say it is all a bit speculative really. I am very harsh on Russell, but mostly because I think he gets too much praise without enough evidence to backup how good he really is.

Grosjean destroyed Maldonado in qualifying in 2014 and 2015. Maldonado only beat Grosjean twice in 2015, and one was when Grosjean hit trouble. Only 8 times in total out of around 40 sessions.While that is a lot more than Russell got beaten (which was never) Mandonado wasn't a rookie like latifi and I don't think he was even close to being as weak as Kubica on a saturday.
Was Grosjean a qualifier on Russell's level based on these 2 seasons? He even managed to get that awful Louts to P5 in Spain 2014. I honestly think this is a valid comparison to Russell. Having an underwhelming team mate doesn't prove that much for your qualifying ability as you can't prove how good the car actually is. I doubt people would have considered Grosjean a top qualifier based on just these two seasons somehow.

If P5 is purely guessing, then I think that is fair enough. But I would say Russell is currently just too unknown to confirm positions in the rankings for things like qualifying.
If Russell is no good I hate to think what this says about Bottas! Russell almost outqualified him while sticking out the top of the car and having his feet mashed together in the footwell that was too narrow for his feet, in his first weekend in the car Bottas had been driving all year.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:30 am
Invade wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:15 am
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:08 am
Mercedes was the fastest car in all three sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, it’s just that neither of their drivers put together a lap as good as the one Verstappen did. On that Saturday afternoon Mercedes had the best car but not the best driver.

Verstappen vs Russell in Sakhir is a completely irrelevant comparison. They don’t even drive the same car. The only thing Russell showed in Sakhir is that looking good in a Mercedes is not particularly difficult, and neither is beating Bottas.

Anyway, now that Verstappen has a teammate who is fairly comparable to Bottas in terms of ability, there will be no more excuses. I am fairly relaxed, we will get so many answers this season.
When I have it within a tenth, I tend to mark pace as equal. But if I have to err toward one side with the advantage of that tenth or less, then I do think Mercedes probably had it for qualifying. However...

I don't know the details of who put in those fastest sectors at Abu Dhabi 2020, but I don't think that's always slam dunk logic for coming to the conclusion. In a basic sense, we could suppose that Mercedes had two drivers capable of bringing out the car's potential and Red Bull only one. Perhaps if we swapped Albon with Bottas, the fastest sector data would look different. Of course, perhaps Bottas wouldn't touch Verstappen even over many runs and selective sectors and it would have been the same.
Using sector data as anything other than an approximation is lazy analysis, and it takes only a modicum of critical thinking to figure that out. For example, driver A could use all their battery deployment in sector 1, while driver B could use it all in sector 2. Those sectors would be much faster but it would be impossible to do both in one flying laps. Or maybe a driver takes a slower line through the end of sector 2 to get a better sector 3 time. The teams don't use the 3 sector data, they break the circuit into micro sectors and analyse by that - that's why the driver has a continuous delta of how well they are doing compared to their previous best lap. The 3 sector system is just there to give TV some drama for the less informed viewing public.
Yes — all of that.

There are other things at play as well, such as when Ferrari had a period of only going full beans on the very final run, making it appear as though Vettel had maximised his laps, whereas the Merc drivers perhaps had yellow sectors and it was felt they'd extracted less potential out of the lap, having put in two all-out runs.

Then there's the aspect of how well the car can maintain performance throughout a lap and what sort of compromises might have to be made by different team to churn out the best possible lap, and obviously this isn't uniform across teams. You covered some variations.

However despite all the noise I don't think it's a bad immediate metric to give a general impression. At the level of detail though, it can't be relied upon.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:27 am


If P5 is purely guessing, then I think that is fair enough. But I would say Russell is currently just too unknown to confirm positions in the rankings for things like qualifying.
If Russell were to replace Hamilton next season and Bottas stays, I bet that Russell would outqualify Bottas immediately in his first season with the team. :nod:

(And Bottas is a quite strong qualifier.)

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Hamilton versus Russell is a truly tasty qualifying battle. I can see them being split by one or two qualifying sessions and it's really hard to predict which direction.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:03 pm
Hamilton versus Russell is a truly tasty qualifying battle. I can see them being split by one or two qualifying sessions and it's really hard to predict which direction.
I suppose especially as we'd expect Russell to find even a smidge more speed and Hamilton to perhaps lose a touch of his.

But what intrigues me is the drastic nature of the incoming regulations for 2022. Is it the sort of thing that could meaningfully shake up the pecking orders? Will it better suit the more plastic minds of the younger drivers than those who have hardwired their racing skills? Or perhaps Hamilton will just go BOOM and lay open a can of whoop-a**.

How disruptive might a ground-effect formula be?

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Invade wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:10 pm
How disruptive might a ground-effect formula be?
I don't think Hamilton would have significant trouble adapting to the 2022 formula. If he's slower in 2022 it's in line to his anticipated decline in his powers.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by mikeyg123 »

We've seen in the past that Hamilton is very adaptable. A big rule change is an advantage for the likes of him and Kimi I would say.

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