Which team has the best driver pairing?

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Rank the driver pairings from strongest to weakest

Poll ended at Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 pm

Rank the teams from fastest to slowest
41
6%
Alfa Romeo
25
3%
Alfa Romeo_1
8
1%
Alfa Romeo_2
9
1%
Alfa Romeo_3
32
4%
Alfa Romeo_4
0
No votes
Alpha Tauri
25
3%
Alpha Tauri_1
29
4%
Alpha Tauri_2
33
4%
Alpha Tauri_3
8
1%
Alpha Tauri_4
0
No votes
Alpine
26
4%
Alpine_1
12
2%
Alpine_2
37
5%
Alpine_3
0
No votes
Alpine_4
0
No votes
Aston Martin
15
2%
Aston Martin_1
29
4%
Aston Martin_2
31
4%
Aston Martin_3
7
1%
Aston Martin_4
0
No votes
Ferrari
21
3%
Ferrari_1
29
4%
Ferrari_2
13
2%
Ferrari_3
0
No votes
Ferrari_4
0
No votes
Haas
2
0%
Haas_1
37
5%
Haas_2
1
0%
Haas_3
40
5%
Haas_4
0
No votes
McLaren
20
3%
McLaren_1
17
2%
McLaren_2
23
3%
McLaren_3
0
No votes
McLaren_4
0
No votes
Mercedes
24
3%
Mercedes_1
20
3%
Mercedes_2
7
1%
Mercedes_3
1
0%
Mercedes_4
0
No votes
Red Bull Racing
27
4%
Red Bull Racing_1
13
2%
Red Bull Racing_2
4
1%
Red Bull Racing_3
0
No votes
Red Bull Racing_4
0
No votes
Williams
20
3%
Williams_1
11
1%
Williams_2
6
1%
Williams_3
35
5%
Williams_4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 738

pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
...but [Perez] has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now.
People seem to forget that Checo was battered by Button in 2013.
  • In qualifying, 10-9 to Button.
  • In races, 11-5 to Button.
  • In points, 73-49 to Button.
Now I concede Perez has improved in the last 7 season but I think there is a reasonable possibility he will be Albon'd unless the car has significantly better drivability.
He wasn't battered by Button. It was his first year in a new team and started slightly off the pace as most drivers do when moving teams. Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.

That's actually really good. People have been misrepresenting Perez' performance in 2013 for years.
Second half of the 2013 season Button v Perez head to head:-

6 - 11 (1-0)
10 -12 (2-0)
7 - 8 (3-0)
8 - 10 (4-0)
9 - 15 (5-0)
14 - 5 (5-1)
12 - 9 (5-2)
10 - 7 (5-3)
4 - 6 (6-3)

We are perhaps remembering a strong run of 3 races for Perez near the end of the season which denotes Perez as being Button's equal?
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Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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tootsie323
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by tootsie323 »

Don't let Perez's 2013 season define his ability. We don't exactly base Hamilton's career on 2011.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
...but [Perez] has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now.
People seem to forget that Checo was battered by Button in 2013.
  • In qualifying, 10-9 to Button.
  • In races, 11-5 to Button.
  • In points, 73-49 to Button.
Now I concede Perez has improved in the last 7 season but I think there is a reasonable possibility he will be Albon'd unless the car has significantly better drivability.
He wasn't battered by Button. It was his first year in a new team and started slightly off the pace as most drivers do when moving teams. Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.

That's actually really good. People have been misrepresenting Perez' performance in 2013 for years.
Second half of the 2013 season Button v Perez head to head:-

6 - 11 (1-0)
10 -12 (2-0)
7 - 8 (3-0)
8 - 10 (4-0)
9 - 15 (5-0)
14 - 5 (5-1)
12 - 9 (5-2)
10 - 7 (5-3)
4 - 6 (6-3)

We are perhaps remembering a strong run of 3 races for Perez near the end of the season which denotes Perez as being Button's equal?
Points - 34 - 31

Qualifying - 3 - 6

Overall they were pretty even in the 2nd half of season. I'm pretty confident in my memory of the pair in 2013 being correct. The stats bare it out at least.

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.
Doesn't seem to be reflected in the results to be honest.

Rounds 1-9

Qualifying - Button 6-3 Perez
Races - Button 4-2 Perez

Rounds 10-19

Qualifying - Button 4-6 Perez
Races - Button 7-3 Perez
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mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.
Doesn't seem to be reflected in the results to be honest.

Rounds 1-9

Qualifying - Button 6-3 Perez
Races - Button 4-2 Perez

Rounds 10-19

Qualifying - Button 4-6 Perez
Races - Button 7-3 Perez
You used three metrics. Odd that you now drop one... Just an error I'm sure. I'll fill it in for you.

Points -

Rounds 1-10

Button - 39
Perez 18

11-19

Button -34
Perez 31

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Exediron
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:38 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.
Doesn't seem to be reflected in the results to be honest.

Rounds 1-9

Qualifying - Button 6-3 Perez
Races - Button 4-2 Perez

Rounds 10-19

Qualifying - Button 4-6 Perez
Races - Button 7-3 Perez
You used three metrics. Odd that you now drop one... Just an error I'm sure. I'll fill it in for you.
You must know points is the least meaningful metric out of the three when analyzing driver performance.

That said, I agree with your position in a broad sense. Perez was very close to Button by the end of the season, and I consider Perez = Button to be an acceptable shorthand conclusion.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:38 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.
Doesn't seem to be reflected in the results to be honest.

Rounds 1-9

Qualifying - Button 6-3 Perez
Races - Button 4-2 Perez

Rounds 10-19

Qualifying - Button 4-6 Perez
Races - Button 7-3 Perez
You used three metrics. Odd that you now drop one... Just an error I'm sure. I'll fill it in for you.
You must know points is the least meaningful metric out of the three when analyzing driver performance.

That said, I agree with your position in a broad sense. Perez was very close to Button by the end of the season, and I consider Perez = Button to be an acceptable shorthand conclusion.
I agree but F1 Tyrant considered it worth while enough to use when it suited his argument. He should at least be intellectually honest enough not to just drop it when it no longer does so.

pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:32 pm
Don't let Perez's 2013 season define his ability. We don't exactly base Hamilton's career on 2011.
Well I guess one or two of us are replying to the idea that Perez is better than Button or some who believe that in 2013 Perez proved himself equal to Button.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:46 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
...but [Perez] has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now.
People seem to forget that Checo was battered by Button in 2013.
  • In qualifying, 10-9 to Button.
  • In races, 11-5 to Button.
  • In points, 73-49 to Button.
Now I concede Perez has improved in the last 7 season but I think there is a reasonable possibility he will be Albon'd unless the car has significantly better drivability.
He wasn't battered by Button. It was his first year in a new team and started slightly off the pace as most drivers do when moving teams. Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.

That's actually really good. People have been misrepresenting Perez' performance in 2013 for years.
Second half of the 2013 season Button v Perez head to head:-

6 - 11 (1-0)
10 -12 (2-0)
7 - 8 (3-0)
8 - 10 (4-0)
9 - 15 (5-0)
14 - 5 (5-1)
12 - 9 (5-2)
10 - 7 (5-3)
4 - 6 (6-3)

We are perhaps remembering a strong run of 3 races for Perez near the end of the season which denotes Perez as being Button's equal?
Points - 34 - 31

Qualifying - 3 - 6

Overall they were pretty even in the 2nd half of season. I'm pretty confident in my memory of the pair in 2013 being correct. The stats bare it out at least.
It's basically a run of 3 very strong races were we want to define Pérez as being equal to Button, Perez beat Button in 3 of the last 9 races.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:34 pm
I agree but F1 Tyrant considered it worth while enough to use when it suited his argument. He should at least be intellectually honest enough not to just drop it when it no longer does so.
Ouch. Much ascription to malice where incompetence would explain.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Banana Man »

If we’re comparing Perez with teammates, I also though Kobayashi was better when they were together. Three podiums when Sergio ran alternate tyre strategies, starting outside the top ten, massively skewed the points towards him and KK had his big payday at Spa ruined by Grosjean.

He has grown as a driver since then and his unfortunate move to McLaren. I’d probably rank him roughly equal to Bottas.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by KingVoid »

I rate Perez and Sainz as equals and both slightly better than Bottas. My biggest problem with Bottas has always been his race pace and tyre management, which was an issue even at Williams. His record on Sundays against Maldonado and Massa is unimpressive. On Sundays I’d rather have Perez or Sainz in my car instead of Bottas.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by DOLOMITE »

Well I changed my mind since I voted (can you change?) and now I get

Mercedes
Ferrari
McLaren
Red Bull
Alpine
Alfa Romeo
Williams
Aston Martin
Alpha Tauri
Haas

but the exercise of rating the drivers then averaging their rankings out to get the teams led me to another thread on intra-team disparity.
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Banana Man
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Banana Man »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:24 am
I rate Perez and Sainz as equals and both slightly better than Bottas. My biggest problem with Bottas has always been his race pace and tyre management, which was an issue even at Williams. His record on Sundays against Maldonado and Massa is unimpressive. On Sundays I’d rather have Perez or Sainz in my car instead of Bottas.
Bottas was comfortably better than Massa. I’d struggle to choose between the three but if I had to pick one it’d be Sainz probably.
I remember when this website was all fields.

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.

mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.
The problem with Sainz is that we only have one season in his entire career where we can fairly benchmark him against another driver. And he lost.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.
Fair enough - that's a decently balanced perspective. For Sainz, I do think the loss against Hulk nullified the approximate matching against Verstappen (albeit in his rookie season) - but he acquitted himself really well over at McLaren last couple of seasons.

I do think though that you are underrating Leclerc - sure, he's more prone to mistakes than Verstappen/Hamilton (especially Hamilton), but he's also in a position where he has to fight other cars. It is easy to make less/no mistakes when you're in a race of your own, as it happens frequently with Verstappen and Hamilton (for P3 and P1 respectively).

pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.
Sainz was very similar with Verstappen but had about 5 years of car racing as opposed to just the one season for Verstappen before joining F1. He then beat Kvyat but then again who didn't, and his qualifying numbers were not as good as Gasly's.

He then got beat by the Hulk, we might say he was new to the team but then the year after Ricciardo managed to beat the Hulk.

The last 2 years he's beaten Norris, although qualifying stats are near identical, but Norris is essentially a rookie with no F1 track record and his season in F2, despite finishing second as a rookie, was not really that impressive with Norris only managing one win and the engines/clutches were very unreliable making some of the results a lottery, it was thought that Norris would have been better suited with another season in F2.

I see Sainz and Perez has being very similar in their attributes, average qualifiers but solid points scorers on race day, but looking at Perez he also was matched up against the Hulk and he beat him although he got edged out in qualifying, his all round performance against the Hulk was better.

So in conclusion in respect to Perez, Sainz has simply not beaten anyone relevant to consider him as being as good as Perez.
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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Rockie
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Rockie »

As always with the best driver pairing, the best car will all always end up with best driver pairing if Mercedes win both championships then the drivers are best pairing same for all the other teams.

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:47 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.
Sainz was very similar with Verstappen but had about 5 years of car racing as opposed to just the one season for Verstappen before joining F1. He then beat Kvyat but then again who didn't, and his qualifying numbers were not as good as Gasly's.

He then got beat by the Hulk, we might say he was new to the team but then the year after Ricciardo managed to beat the Hulk.

The last 2 years he's beaten Norris, although qualifying stats are near identical, but Norris is essentially a rookie with no F1 track record and his season in F2, despite finishing second as a rookie, was not really that impressive with Norris only managing one win and the engines/clutches were very unreliable making some of the results a lottery, it was thought that Norris would have been better suited with another season in F2.

I see Sainz and Perez has being very similar in their attributes, average qualifiers but solid points scorers on race day, but looking at Perez he also was matched up against the Hulk and he beat him although he got edged out in qualifying, his all round performance against the Hulk was better.

So in conclusion in respect to Perez, Sainz has simply not beaten anyone relevant to consider him as being as good as Perez.
All fair and valid. I wish this forum had a 'like' or 'post acknowledged' button so it didn't look like I was ignoring people all the time lol. You've quoted me quite a bit and usually I don't get back to you.

:thumbup:

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:47 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.
Sainz was very similar with Verstappen but had about 5 years of car racing as opposed to just the one season for Verstappen before joining F1. He then beat Kvyat but then again who didn't, and his qualifying numbers were not as good as Gasly's.

He then got beat by the Hulk, we might say he was new to the team but then the year after Ricciardo managed to beat the Hulk.

The last 2 years he's beaten Norris, although qualifying stats are near identical, but Norris is essentially a rookie with no F1 track record and his season in F2, despite finishing second as a rookie, was not really that impressive with Norris only managing one win and the engines/clutches were very unreliable making some of the results a lottery, it was thought that Norris would have been better suited with another season in F2.

I see Sainz and Perez has being very similar in their attributes, average qualifiers but solid points scorers on race day, but looking at Perez he also was matched up against the Hulk and he beat him although he got edged out in qualifying, his all round performance against the Hulk was better.

So in conclusion in respect to Perez, Sainz has simply not beaten anyone relevant to consider him as being as good as Perez.
While our past interactions haven't always been pleasant, I do wish to state here that this is perhaps one of your most balanced comments (that I have read). I do rate Sainz higher than Perez, but I completely understand where you are coming from and do agree with most of it. :thumbup:

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

A.J. wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am


Fair enough - that's a decently balanced perspective. For Sainz, I do think the loss against Hulk nullified the approximate matching against Verstappen (albeit in his rookie season) - but he acquitted himself really well over at McLaren last couple of seasons.

I do think though that you are underrating Leclerc - sure, he's more prone to mistakes than Verstappen/Hamilton (especially Hamilton), but he's also in a position where he has to fight other cars. It is easy to make less/no mistakes when you're in a race of your own, as it happens frequently with Verstappen and Hamilton (for P3 and P1 respectively).
Well I've no doubt there's some truth to this. There is something to be said for the nature of his errors though. Granted, he seems willing to push right up to the limit of performance in a car and a team that was grossly underperforming by their standards, so rather than getting solid performances we had some truly mesmerising ones in qualifying and the race, along with some epic disasters. I think Leclerc would admit himself that he's been too hasty in the start phase of races. His error in the Styrian GP can't really be explained away other than a total blunder and he didn't come off well in Monza nor Sakhir.

I think the main thing for me is we've seen an elite driver have to deal with the pack regularly and put in outstanding and consistent seasons with minimal errors - in more recent years that's Alonso. Of course, Alonso still ended up in accidents, but typically not of his own doing.

So I still see a gap there, one which may well be bridged as soon as this year. The potential is abundantly obvious and it's already been mostly realised in terms of his actual ability. He is ferociously quick and regularly capable of 'outperforming the car' as it's sometimes put. He might well be the fastest on the grid.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am


Fair enough - that's a decently balanced perspective. For Sainz, I do think the loss against Hulk nullified the approximate matching against Verstappen (albeit in his rookie season) - but he acquitted himself really well over at McLaren last couple of seasons.

I do think though that you are underrating Leclerc - sure, he's more prone to mistakes than Verstappen/Hamilton (especially Hamilton), but he's also in a position where he has to fight other cars. It is easy to make less/no mistakes when you're in a race of your own, as it happens frequently with Verstappen and Hamilton (for P3 and P1 respectively).
Well I've no doubt there's some truth to this. There is something to be said for the nature of his errors though. Granted, he seems willing to push right up to the limit of performance in a car and a team that was grossly underperforming by their standards, so rather than getting solid performances we had some truly mesmerising ones in qualifying and the race, along with some epic disasters. I think Leclerc would admit himself that he's been too hasty in the start phase of races. His error in the Styrian GP can't really be explained away other than a total blunder and he didn't come off well in Monza nor Sakhir.

I think the main thing for me is we've seen an elite driver have to deal with the pack regularly and put in outstanding and consistent seasons with minimal errors - in more recent years that's Alonso. Of course, Alonso still ended up in accidents, but typically not of his own doing.

So I still see a gap there, one which may well be bridged as soon as this year. The potential is abundantly obvious and it's already been mostly realised in terms of his actual ability. He is ferociously quick and regularly capable of 'outperforming the car' as it's sometimes put. He might well be the fastest on the grid.
I think we are trying to predict how good drivers will be in 2021 though rather than how good they have been previously. Leclerc has only done 3 seasons. You bring up Alonso, in his 3rd season he struggled against Trulli. In his 4th he was the best driver in the sport.

Leclerc does make too many mistakes but I think his high points get undervalued as well. I don't think there are many drivers who would have gotten a podium out of the Ferrari in Austria.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:51 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am


Fair enough - that's a decently balanced perspective. For Sainz, I do think the loss against Hulk nullified the approximate matching against Verstappen (albeit in his rookie season) - but he acquitted himself really well over at McLaren last couple of seasons.

I do think though that you are underrating Leclerc - sure, he's more prone to mistakes than Verstappen/Hamilton (especially Hamilton), but he's also in a position where he has to fight other cars. It is easy to make less/no mistakes when you're in a race of your own, as it happens frequently with Verstappen and Hamilton (for P3 and P1 respectively).
Well I've no doubt there's some truth to this. There is something to be said for the nature of his errors though. Granted, he seems willing to push right up to the limit of performance in a car and a team that was grossly underperforming by their standards, so rather than getting solid performances we had some truly mesmerising ones in qualifying and the race, along with some epic disasters. I think Leclerc would admit himself that he's been too hasty in the start phase of races. His error in the Styrian GP can't really be explained away other than a total blunder and he didn't come off well in Monza nor Sakhir.

I think the main thing for me is we've seen an elite driver have to deal with the pack regularly and put in outstanding and consistent seasons with minimal errors - in more recent years that's Alonso. Of course, Alonso still ended up in accidents, but typically not of his own doing.

So I still see a gap there, one which may well be bridged as soon as this year. The potential is abundantly obvious and it's already been mostly realised in terms of his actual ability. He is ferociously quick and regularly capable of 'outperforming the car' as it's sometimes put. He might well be the fastest on the grid.
I think we are trying to predict how good drivers will be in 2021 though rather than how good they have been previously. Leclerc has only done 3 seasons. You bring up Alonso, in his 3rd season he struggled against Trulli. In his 4th he was the best driver in the sport.

Leclerc does make too many mistakes but I think his high points get undervalued as well. I don't think there are many drivers who would have gotten a podium out of the Ferrari in Austria.
Yeah and that's why I can't yet put Charlie with Max and Lewis. It makes sense though that Leclerc hasn't peaked and found his ideal balance yet given his relative inexperience.

He does produce some scintillating highs, especially in qualifying. And his ability to drag such heavy points scoring performances out of what was a mediocre car is massively valuable. You want a driver who puts in a storming performance and hauls in 15 points when he has no right doing so, even with the blunders thrown in. And what if he cuts out such errors? Well then you have a driver who could be a career-long rival to Verstappen.

But I need to see it first.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:00 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:51 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am


Fair enough - that's a decently balanced perspective. For Sainz, I do think the loss against Hulk nullified the approximate matching against Verstappen (albeit in his rookie season) - but he acquitted himself really well over at McLaren last couple of seasons.

I do think though that you are underrating Leclerc - sure, he's more prone to mistakes than Verstappen/Hamilton (especially Hamilton), but he's also in a position where he has to fight other cars. It is easy to make less/no mistakes when you're in a race of your own, as it happens frequently with Verstappen and Hamilton (for P3 and P1 respectively).
Well I've no doubt there's some truth to this. There is something to be said for the nature of his errors though. Granted, he seems willing to push right up to the limit of performance in a car and a team that was grossly underperforming by their standards, so rather than getting solid performances we had some truly mesmerising ones in qualifying and the race, along with some epic disasters. I think Leclerc would admit himself that he's been too hasty in the start phase of races. His error in the Styrian GP can't really be explained away other than a total blunder and he didn't come off well in Monza nor Sakhir.

I think the main thing for me is we've seen an elite driver have to deal with the pack regularly and put in outstanding and consistent seasons with minimal errors - in more recent years that's Alonso. Of course, Alonso still ended up in accidents, but typically not of his own doing.

So I still see a gap there, one which may well be bridged as soon as this year. The potential is abundantly obvious and it's already been mostly realised in terms of his actual ability. He is ferociously quick and regularly capable of 'outperforming the car' as it's sometimes put. He might well be the fastest on the grid.
I think we are trying to predict how good drivers will be in 2021 though rather than how good they have been previously. Leclerc has only done 3 seasons. You bring up Alonso, in his 3rd season he struggled against Trulli. In his 4th he was the best driver in the sport.

Leclerc does make too many mistakes but I think his high points get undervalued as well. I don't think there are many drivers who would have gotten a podium out of the Ferrari in Austria.
Yeah and that's why I can't yet put Charlie with Max and Lewis. It makes sense though that Leclerc hasn't peaked and found his ideal balance yet given his relative inexperience.

He does produce some scintillating highs, especially in qualifying. And his ability to drag such heavy points scoring performances out of what was a mediocre car is massively valuable. You want a driver who puts in a storming performance and hauls in 15 points when he has no right doing so, even with the blunders thrown in. And what if he cuts out such errors? Well then you have a driver who could be a career-long rival to Verstappen.

But I need to see it first.
I largely agree with you but just as an interesting point... Have we seen a driver in recent times with Leclerc's ability that hasn't been able to cut the errors out when given the best or equal best cars?

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Banana Man »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:59 pm
As always with the best driver pairing, the best car will all always end up with best driver pairing if Mercedes win both championships then the drivers are best pairing same for all the other teams.
Eh? Very often the best team doesn’t have the best driver pairing. In ‘97 Williams won both Championships, in ‘98 McLaren, despite having the same four drivers in the same seats.
I remember when this website was all fields.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Rockie »

Banana Man wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:41 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:59 pm
As always with the best driver pairing, the best car will all always end up with best driver pairing if Mercedes win both championships then the drivers are best pairing same for all the other teams.
Eh? Very often the best team doesn’t have the best driver pairing. In ‘97 Williams won both Championships, in ‘98 McLaren, despite having the same four drivers in the same seats.
Think about what you said here, are you now agreeing that the car is star?

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:47 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:50 pm
I'm quite surprised by how this poll has turned out so far - I personally voted for Ferrari having the strongest pairing, as that seems to be the only team with TWO top-level (or one elite and one top level at least).

Red Bull - while Verstappen is arguably the fastest guy out there (same level as Hamilton/Leclerc imo), I would argue Perez is a notch lower than Sainz.

Mercedes - similar to RBR - while Hamilton is elite, Bottas is a notch lower than Sainz.

The consensus of the forum seems to suggest that either people underrate Sainz or I overrate him.
I doubt that most currently have Leclerc in league with Hamilton and Verstappen yet. In speed yes, but not in consistency of performance in the races. This definitely played a big part in rating Red Bull and Mercedes ahead of Ferrari for their driver pairings, even though I believe that in the end Leclerc will establish himself in that tier.

Right now, I only have a top tier of 2 drivers and that's Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is a tier below for now.

I'm not sure that many are convinced about Sainz yet. He didn't put much distance between himself and Norris and he came off worse vs Hulk. I do rate Sainz but also rate Perez. Anything I see Bottas losing vs Sainz (perhaps a better qualifier but I think he's worse in races) I see Hamilton making up for over Leclerc as things stand.
Sainz was very similar with Verstappen but had about 5 years of car racing as opposed to just the one season for Verstappen before joining F1. He then beat Kvyat but then again who didn't, and his qualifying numbers were not as good as Gasly's.

He then got beat by the Hulk, we might say he was new to the team but then the year after Ricciardo managed to beat the Hulk.

The last 2 years he's beaten Norris, although qualifying stats are near identical, but Norris is essentially a rookie with no F1 track record and his season in F2, despite finishing second as a rookie, was not really that impressive with Norris only managing one win and the engines/clutches were very unreliable making some of the results a lottery, it was thought that Norris would have been better suited with another season in F2.

I see Sainz and Perez has being very similar in their attributes, average qualifiers but solid points scorers on race day, but looking at Perez he also was matched up against the Hulk and he beat him although he got edged out in qualifying, his all round performance against the Hulk was better.

So in conclusion in respect to Perez, Sainz has simply not beaten anyone relevant to consider him as being as good as Perez.
While our past interactions haven't always been pleasant, I do wish to state here that this is perhaps one of your most balanced comments (that I have read). I do rate Sainz higher than Perez, but I completely understand where you are coming from and do agree with most of it. :thumbup:
Well believe it or not my interest in F1 goes far beyond Hamilton, even beyond the actual constrains of the F1 paddock into the junior series, anyway thanks for the acknowledgement. :thumbup:
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Banana Man »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:25 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:41 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:59 pm
As always with the best driver pairing, the best car will all always end up with best driver pairing if Mercedes win both championships then the drivers are best pairing same for all the other teams.
Eh? Very often the best team doesn’t have the best driver pairing. In ‘97 Williams won both Championships, in ‘98 McLaren, despite having the same four drivers in the same seats.
Think about what you said here, are you now agreeing that the car is star?
I don’t know what you’re trying to argue. Your post reads as if a team which wins both Championships has the best driver pairing, by default. That’s clearly not the case. The car is the star but that’s not the thread question and I’ve never tried to argue otherwise.
I remember when this website was all fields.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

This is the closest this forum has ever reached to a consensus. The ranking distribution is pretty much as uniform as is possible with this type of poll.
Red Bull Racing1.67
Mercedes 2.36
Ferrari3.27
McLaren3.76
Alpine4.7
Aston Martin5.88
Alpha Tauri7.06
Alfa Romeo8.09
Williams8.52
Haas9.7

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by DOLOMITE »

RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Tufty »

1: Red Bull Racing
2: Ferrari
3: McLaren
4: Mercedes
5: Alpine
6: Alpha Tauri
7: Williams
8: Alfa Romeo
9: Aston Martin
10: Haas
Anyone in or near North Wales interested in an RC car racing tournament?

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?
This is what puzzels me a bit. It depends how we judge the best driver pairing. We know that Hamilton and Bottas get on, and that makes a good driver pairing for the team. Perez isn't like Bottas when he's close to a team mate. He ends up getting involved in more incidents like with Ocon in 2018. I don't expect Perez will be close to Verstappen though.

I can see some thinking the raw speed of Verstappen is maybe better than Hamilton, but overall, I just can't see him being considered better yet, and not even either. So in this instance, i think many will need to think Perez is significently better than Bottas to make red bull a better line up. I think people can make a case about him being better than Bottas more recently, but overall, I'd say it can only be very marginally and with hamilton being better than Verstappen, I would have thought that would have swung the most votes towards Mercedes. Perez is also new to Red Bull and Verstappen hasn't even been there 5 years yet. Hamilton will be in his 9th season with Mercedes and Bottas will be in his 5th. With experience being factored in too, I really can't see how Red Bull can be considered a stronger line up. How Perez will perform there is a complete unknown.


I agree with the averages results so far from 10th to 6th. I would certainly swap the top two, and while i rated 3rd and 4th the other way round, they are so tight IMO that this is close enough.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?
I rate Hamilton as the sport's current elite driver, with Leclerc being being the fastest driver in the sport, and Verstappen being the most relentless. Both have the makings of being Hamilton's successor but I feel that the red three legged donkey that Leclerc was given last season hid his development as a contender and overinflated the prices on the Max Verstappen hype train.

However, Max is a more experienced driver - and don't let the fact that I think that Leclerc is faster than Verstappen mean that I think Verstappen is not mindblowingly fast, we are talking cigarette paper's level of difference in speed between the S-tier drivers right now. Both are probably now capable of being faster than Hamilton, but I don't think they are faster than a 2008 Hamilton. However a 2008 Hamilton would get demolished by a 2020 Hamilton because Formula 1 is about a whole lot more than raw speed. Hakkinen had more raw speed than Schumacher, but no one is going to suggest Hakkinen comes close to the Schumacher package. Similarly, 1994 Schumacher was faster than 2004 Schumacher. But 2004 Schumacher would have beaten 1994 Schumacher in a title fight.

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by JN23 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:01 pm
This is the closest this forum has ever reached to a consensus. The ranking distribution is pretty much as uniform as is possible with this type of poll.
Red Bull Racing1.67
Mercedes 2.36
Ferrari3.27
McLaren3.76
Alpine4.7
Aston Martin5.88
Alpha Tauri7.06
Alfa Romeo8.09
Williams8.52
Haas9.7
This means there were some rankings that didn't have Haas last. I can't see an argument for them not being last personally, but would be interested to hear the logic of anyone who didn't rank them last.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:37 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:01 pm
This is the closest this forum has ever reached to a consensus. The ranking distribution is pretty much as uniform as is possible with this type of poll.
Red Bull Racing1.67
Mercedes 2.36
Ferrari3.27
McLaren3.76
Alpine4.7
Aston Martin5.88
Alpha Tauri7.06
Alfa Romeo8.09
Williams8.52
Haas9.7
This means there were some rankings that didn't have Haas last. I can't see an argument for them not being last personally, but would be interested to hear the logic of anyone who didn't rank them last.
The only thing I can think of is someone rating Williams lower. So for instance if someone thinks Russell is only marginally better than Schumacher, but Mazepin is much better than Latifi - they may rank Williams lower.

Disclaimer: I ranked Haas last.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:02 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:00 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:51 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am


Fair enough - that's a decently balanced perspective. For Sainz, I do think the loss against Hulk nullified the approximate matching against Verstappen (albeit in his rookie season) - but he acquitted himself really well over at McLaren last couple of seasons.

I do think though that you are underrating Leclerc - sure, he's more prone to mistakes than Verstappen/Hamilton (especially Hamilton), but he's also in a position where he has to fight other cars. It is easy to make less/no mistakes when you're in a race of your own, as it happens frequently with Verstappen and Hamilton (for P3 and P1 respectively).
Well I've no doubt there's some truth to this. There is something to be said for the nature of his errors though. Granted, he seems willing to push right up to the limit of performance in a car and a team that was grossly underperforming by their standards, so rather than getting solid performances we had some truly mesmerising ones in qualifying and the race, along with some epic disasters. I think Leclerc would admit himself that he's been too hasty in the start phase of races. His error in the Styrian GP can't really be explained away other than a total blunder and he didn't come off well in Monza nor Sakhir.

I think the main thing for me is we've seen an elite driver have to deal with the pack regularly and put in outstanding and consistent seasons with minimal errors - in more recent years that's Alonso. Of course, Alonso still ended up in accidents, but typically not of his own doing.

So I still see a gap there, one which may well be bridged as soon as this year. The potential is abundantly obvious and it's already been mostly realised in terms of his actual ability. He is ferociously quick and regularly capable of 'outperforming the car' as it's sometimes put. He might well be the fastest on the grid.
I think we are trying to predict how good drivers will be in 2021 though rather than how good they have been previously. Leclerc has only done 3 seasons. You bring up Alonso, in his 3rd season he struggled against Trulli. In his 4th he was the best driver in the sport.

Leclerc does make too many mistakes but I think his high points get undervalued as well. I don't think there are many drivers who would have gotten a podium out of the Ferrari in Austria.
Yeah and that's why I can't yet put Charlie with Max and Lewis. It makes sense though that Leclerc hasn't peaked and found his ideal balance yet given his relative inexperience.

He does produce some scintillating highs, especially in qualifying. And his ability to drag such heavy points scoring performances out of what was a mediocre car is massively valuable. You want a driver who puts in a storming performance and hauls in 15 points when he has no right doing so, even with the blunders thrown in. And what if he cuts out such errors? Well then you have a driver who could be a career-long rival to Verstappen.

But I need to see it first.
I largely agree with you but just as an interesting point... Have we seen a driver in recent times with Leclerc's ability that hasn't been able to cut the errors out when given the best or equal best cars?
No, though it might not be an immediate process. Hamilton learning on the fly in his first couple of seasons, for example - some high profile errors including a couple of embarrassing ones. At year 4 coming up, I reckon if Leclerc was in Bottas' seat he could immediately challenge Hamilton for the WDC, on the assumption he's about to move up another level as an overall racer.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

We must be curious as to how Perez will do in qualifying. What if McLaren are surprisingly competitive and can put significant positions between a Max capable of beating the Mercs and a Perez who might succomb to a McLaren or two? What then? In a position where Bottas perhaps wouldn't leak such an advantage.

I'm fascinated to see how that all plays out, but my suspicion is that Perez really is a fairly decent qualifier and his deficit there is probably overplayed. He's probably a bit slower than Bottas, but not slower to the degree where it would neutralise what I perceive to be his advantage in race pace and craft even should competition at the top become more congested.

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