Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
schumilegend
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by schumilegend »

I used to be a fan of Vettel but the last few years have been absolutely unprecedented poor level of performance for a multiple world champion...If Stroll beats him it will be the end and quite frankly people would hesitate to put him even in top 20 of all time which is quite telling given only a grand total of 3 drivers have more championships than him!...Never before have i seen a driver fall over so easily to strong team mates like Herr Vettel

pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

We already have a similar thread to this, my answer will be no because he's better than Stroll.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1514
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Mort Canard »

Well, he is going to have to look a lot better compared to Lance than he has compared to Charles.

Seems to be a bunch of folks wondering if Team Red is giving Seb the same kind of car they are providing to Charles.
Mission WinLater

User avatar
Blinky McSquinty
Posts: 1457
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:04 pm
Seems to be a bunch of folks wondering if Team Red is giving Seb the same kind of car they are providing to Charles.
When a driver is on his way out of a team, certain things begin to happen. He is barred from technical briefings, so that he may not carry any new "secrets" to any other team. Thus, a driver may not be aware of any trick software settings, or new parts that may allow them flexibility in their own driving or tactics.

Even a powerhouse team like Ferrari have limited resources at a track. They have a limited number of personnel and parts at the track. Those assets are distributed within the team, and obviously, the driver with more points, or in favor with management is allocated the better people and the best parts. The same goes with strategy, for example, who goes last out in Q3, a decided benefit at some tracks.

One needs to be aware that to any team (with the obvious exception of Stroll), drivers are a disposable commodity. They are employees of the team, and they are there to serve the interest of the team, not vice-versa.

Or as Ricciardo succinctly stated "not bad for a number two driver".
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

Charles LeBrad
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Charles LeBrad »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:30 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:04 pm
Seems to be a bunch of folks wondering if Team Red is giving Seb the same kind of car they are providing to Charles.
When a driver is on his way out of a team, certain things begin to happen. He is barred from technical briefings, so that he may not carry any new "secrets" to any other team. Thus, a driver may not be aware of any trick software settings, or new parts that may allow them flexibility in their own driving or tactics.

Even a powerhouse team like Ferrari have limited resources at a track. They have a limited number of personnel and parts at the track. Those assets are distributed within the team, and obviously, the driver with more points, or in favor with management is allocated the better people and the best parts. The same goes with strategy, for example, who goes last out in Q3, a decided benefit at some tracks.

One needs to be aware that to any team (with the obvious exception of Stroll), drivers are a disposable commodity. They are employees of the team, and they are there to serve the interest of the team, not vice-versa.

Or as Ricciardo succinctly stated "not bad for a number two driver".
Think you mean Webber


pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

Charles LeBrad wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:20 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:30 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:04 pm
Seems to be a bunch of folks wondering if Team Red is giving Seb the same kind of car they are providing to Charles.
When a driver is on his way out of a team, certain things begin to happen. He is barred from technical briefings, so that he may not carry any new "secrets" to any other team. Thus, a driver may not be aware of any trick software settings, or new parts that may allow them flexibility in their own driving or tactics.

Even a powerhouse team like Ferrari have limited resources at a track. They have a limited number of personnel and parts at the track. Those assets are distributed within the team, and obviously, the driver with more points, or in favor with management is allocated the better people and the best parts. The same goes with strategy, for example, who goes last out in Q3, a decided benefit at some tracks.

One needs to be aware that to any team (with the obvious exception of Stroll), drivers are a disposable commodity. They are employees of the team, and they are there to serve the interest of the team, not vice-versa.

Or as Ricciardo succinctly stated "not bad for a number two driver".
Think you mean Webber

I'm not sure that Webber was really a #2 driver as much as he liked to play the victim.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

vorlon24
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by vorlon24 »

Hopefully - his 4 WDCs are flattering - he's nothing more than average, and Ferrari have finally woken up to that fact

User avatar
Black_Flag_11
Posts: 8034
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.

Racing Point however follows the Mercedes philosophy closely, shall we say, so I think the car will be much better suited to the way he likes to drive and we will see a better performance from him, time will tell though.

Harpo
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Harpo »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:01 pm
he's better than Stroll.
This, we'll know only next year... From what we see, it's not a proven fact (yet ?).
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

BMWSauber84
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Certainly Stroll getting the RP updates in Mugello while Perez did not might make Seb raise his eyebrow. That said I'm sure he won't have accepted any deal that made him play second fiddle.

pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:58 pm
Certainly Stroll getting the RP updates in Mugello while Perez did not might make Seb raise his eyebrow. That said I'm sure he won't have accepted any deal that made him play second fiddle.
Perez is getting the updates in Sochi whilst Stroll's updates got somewhat mangled.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by DOLOMITE »

I think the nails are already in, it's a question of whether next year he can stop being buried alive.

I don't think he can unless the Aston is a race winner and he starts going to toe to toe with Hamilton and wins out. Beating Stroll won't be enough, however big the margin.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

User avatar
Blinky McSquinty
Posts: 1457
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Charles LeBrad wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:20 am
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:30 pm

Or as Ricciardo succinctly stated "not bad for a number two driver".
Think you mean Webber

Thank you Charles, I stand corrected.
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Schermerhorn »

My 2 cents

Daddy Stroll is going to use Vettel to build up the team, attract the sponsors and help sell the Aston Martin brand. I think he'll be give a political-free environment and he'll do well. Lance is too young to lead the team and Vettel will be seen as a mentor to him to teach him the ropes before he retires or maybe goes off to Mercedes. By then I am guessing that Aston Martin will become a winner and Lance will be ready to challenge at the front.

Afterall they've just put $40m into this latest move (buying Perez out, losing his sponsors and covering Vettel's salary). They REALLY wanted Vettel and they'll understand that the best way to move forward is to keep Vettel in a stable environment.

My question is this though;

Will the car be good enough?

Have the existing Tracing Point drivers gotten the most out of the RP20?

How much better will a 2019 Mercedes W10 clone be than a 2021 Red Bull/Ferrari/Mclaren etc?

How much further can they develop this car?

How good will a 2019 W10 clone + 2021 Mercedes power plant be?

Has the car reached its ceiling or is there more to come from it?

They will be using a 2 year old car afterall.....
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Schermerhorn »

vorlon24 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:22 pm
Hopefully - his 4 WDCs are flattering - he's nothing more than average, and Ferrari have finally woken up to that fact
You don't win 4 WDC's by accident.

I'm not sold on Charlie either. I think time will prove that he isn't the team later people make him out to be and Sainz will be much closer to him than people realise....
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

FrogInARaceCar
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by FrogInARaceCar »

To repair his reputation, Vettel needs to trounce Stroll in a way that Perez has not come close to. Assuming Stroll's results in the Racing Point/Aston Martin are about where they are this year, that means consistently competing with Verstappen for the third podium spot and maybe winning a race or two when Mercedes have a bad day.

Verstappen sometimes makes Albon look like he is driving an entirely different car. Vettel needs that kind of margin against Stroll.

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Schermerhorn »

FrogInARaceCar wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:55 am
To repair his reputation, Vettel needs to trounce Stroll in a way that Perez has not come close to. Assuming Stroll's results in the Racing Point/Aston Martin are about where they are this year, that means consistently competing with Verstappen for the third podium spot and maybe winning a race or two when Mercedes have a bad day.

Verstappen sometimes makes Albon look like he is driving an entirely different car. Vettel needs that kind of margin against Stroll.
I don't think Vettel has that type of reserve in him....or whether Lawrence would allow his son to be humiliated like that. Afterall, Lance is the one being groomed to be a winner once Racing Point learn how to operate with an experienced/WDC driver like Vettel.

F1 is a confidence game...if you lose it, it's hard to recover it unless you are someone like Alonso or Hamilton or Rosberg (to a lesser extent) where everything is a battle to overcome and a challenge to prove everyone wrong. I don't see that dog fight in Vettel. He's purely a front runner who races off and doesn't look back.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

FrogInARaceCar
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by FrogInARaceCar »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:23 pm
FrogInARaceCar wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:55 am
To repair his reputation, Vettel needs to trounce Stroll in a way that Perez has not come close to. Assuming Stroll's results in the Racing Point/Aston Martin are about where they are this year, that means consistently competing with Verstappen for the third podium spot and maybe winning a race or two when Mercedes have a bad day.

Verstappen sometimes makes Albon look like he is driving an entirely different car. Vettel needs that kind of margin against Stroll.
I don't think Vettel has that type of reserve in him....or whether Lawrence would allow his son to be humiliated like that. Afterall, Lance is the one being groomed to be a winner once Racing Point learn how to operate with an experienced/WDC driver like Vettel.

F1 is a confidence game...if you lose it, it's hard to recover it unless you are someone like Alonso or Hamilton or Rosberg (to a lesser extent) where everything is a battle to overcome and a challenge to prove everyone wrong. I don't see that dog fight in Vettel. He's purely a front runner who races off and doesn't look back.
Seb's done it before. He had a tough final year at Red Bull against Danny Ric in 2014 but when he joined Ferrari in 2015 he was much better than Kimi. Maybe he can do that again, maybe he can't, but he has got experience of bouncing back from a tough season.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17817
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:02 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:58 pm
Certainly Stroll getting the RP updates in Mugello while Perez did not might make Seb raise his eyebrow. That said I'm sure he won't have accepted any deal that made him play second fiddle.
Perez is getting the updates in Sochi whilst Stroll's updates got somewhat mangled.
You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?

Paolo_Lasardi
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:40 am
vorlon24 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:22 pm
Hopefully - his 4 WDCs are flattering - he's nothing more than average, and Ferrari have finally woken up to that fact
You don't win 4 WDC's by accident.

I'm not sold on Charlie either. I think time will prove that he isn't the team later people make him out to be and Sainz will be much closer to him than people realise....
Well, if Leclerc turns out to be rather ordinary- good than exceptionally-good, this would harm Vettel's reputation even more.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17817
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:40 am
vorlon24 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:22 pm
Hopefully - his 4 WDCs are flattering - he's nothing more than average, and Ferrari have finally woken up to that fact
You don't win 4 WDC's by accident.

I'm not sold on Charlie either. I think time will prove that he isn't the team later people make him out to be and Sainz will be much closer to him than people realise....
That really will reflect badly on Vettel. Personally I don't see it. I've seen too much from Leclerc for him to be a journey man driver like Sainz.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Exediron »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:09 pm
Well, if Leclerc turns out to be rather ordinary- good than exceptionally-good, this would harm Vettel's reputation even more.
If Leclerc turns out to be ordinary it will shatter everything we think we know about driver rankings in F1. It will also imply that Vettel is just outright bad -- a below average driver, not just a weak world champion.

Luckily, it doesn't make any sense. If Sainz is closer to Leclerc than we expect, any rational person will realize that's because Sainz is underrated.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:02 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:58 pm
Certainly Stroll getting the RP updates in Mugello while Perez did not might make Seb raise his eyebrow. That said I'm sure he won't have accepted any deal that made him play second fiddle.
Perez is getting the updates in Sochi whilst Stroll's updates got somewhat mangled.
You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?
It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
Posts: 17817
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:02 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:58 pm
Certainly Stroll getting the RP updates in Mugello while Perez did not might make Seb raise his eyebrow. That said I'm sure he won't have accepted any deal that made him play second fiddle.
Perez is getting the updates in Sochi whilst Stroll's updates got somewhat mangled.
You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?
It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.

pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:02 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:58 pm
Certainly Stroll getting the RP updates in Mugello while Perez did not might make Seb raise his eyebrow. That said I'm sure he won't have accepted any deal that made him play second fiddle.
Perez is getting the updates in Sochi whilst Stroll's updates got somewhat mangled.
You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?
It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.
It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
Posts: 17817
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:02 pm

Perez is getting the updates in Sochi whilst Stroll's updates got somewhat mangled.
You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?
It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.
It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.
If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3050
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Invade »

Otmar said it will be tricky to have the upgrades for both cars in Sochi given Stroll's accident to SKY. You might as well get your bet in for another weekend where Stroll outperforms Perez. ;)

WHoff78
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by WHoff78 »

It’s funny on here how often some say that anyone could win the titles in the Mercedes, arguably more common between 2014-16. While there is some truth in that many would as the lead driver, I’ve always felt that things have looked better for Mercedes because in my opinion they had both the fastest car and the fastest driver over that period. Verstappen may sway that opinion if we one day get a better comparison between the two but it’s just to hard to be certain while they currently operate in such different environments, and with different pressures and goals. Those who are of the belief that the deficits were the other way round and Hamilton perhaps lacked on average a tenth or two to the likes of Vettel and other top drivers, would obviously believe that the Mercedes is even quicker.

However, I think that Vettel is a much better example that you don’t have to be the best to take titles if you are in the right car with a weaker teammate. Next season will be interesting. I think that Vettel will be faster than Stroll because I think he is significantly better driver. But I also expect that it will give us another comparison where Vettel is not given preferential treatment. Would expect the relative difference to be more like Hamilton-Bottas, Norris-Sainz or even Perez-Stroll this season; rather than the gaps we see between Verstappen-Albon or LeClerc-Vettel.

schumilegend
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by schumilegend »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm
We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.
This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it

User avatar
Black_Flag_11
Posts: 8034
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm
We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.
This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it
It's been well documented for a number of years that Vettel needs a stable and compliant rear end to extract his best performance. Just a quick google brings this article up from the beginning of last year and I know I read about it during his time at Red Bull even.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lem-setup/
It is not a secret what Vettel demands from a good racing car. He must be able to rely on the rear of the vehicle. It doesn't even have to feel like cement, but its reactions have to be predictable in every round. Then he can show his great strength.
Radio from after the last GP "thanks guys I pushed as hard as could at the end there but, yeah, the car was getting nervous again with the rear"

F1Oz
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by F1Oz »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:35 pm


You honestly think if there is only one update package available in Sochi it will go to Perez?
It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.
It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.
If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.
I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm
Otmar said it will be tricky to have the upgrades for both cars in Sochi given Stroll's accident to SKY. You might as well get your bet in for another weekend where Stroll outperforms Perez. ;)
What are the upgrades and how much performance do they give the car?

Is it something that Perez can (naturally) overcome?
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

Rockie
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Rockie »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 am
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm
We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.
This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it
It's been well documented for a number of years that Vettel needs a stable and compliant rear end to extract his best performance. Just a quick google brings this article up from the beginning of last year and I know I read about it during his time at Red Bull even.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lem-setup/
It is not a secret what Vettel demands from a good racing car. He must be able to rely on the rear of the vehicle. It doesn't even have to feel like cement, but its reactions have to be predictable in every round. Then he can show his great strength.
Radio from after the last GP "thanks guys I pushed as hard as could at the end there but, yeah, the car was getting nervous again with the rear"
People keep conflating stability under braking and planted rear end, and this confusion comes from thinking the EBD cars have more downforce than current cars.

It's actually there in the article you posted.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17817
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 am
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 pm
We're seeing what we already knew, Vettel can't extract top level performance out of a car with rear instability, we saw the same thing last year between France and Singapore when Ferrari went that way with development.

If the Racing Point has the same 'pointy' characteristics next year then he will struggle. I doubt Stroll will beat him regardless as I think an off-pace Vettel is still faster than Stroll, but it could be close.
This isn't true at all...Contrary Vettel always likes a pointy car..part of the reason he destroyed Bourdais in Toro Rosso and Webber in the red bull..Bourdais even acknowledged how he couldnt cope with a unstable rear but Seb could control it
It's been well documented for a number of years that Vettel needs a stable and compliant rear end to extract his best performance. Just a quick google brings this article up from the beginning of last year and I know I read about it during his time at Red Bull even.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lem-setup/
It is not a secret what Vettel demands from a good racing car. He must be able to rely on the rear of the vehicle. It doesn't even have to feel like cement, but its reactions have to be predictable in every round. Then he can show his great strength.
Radio from after the last GP "thanks guys I pushed as hard as could at the end there but, yeah, the car was getting nervous again with the rear"
People keep conflating stability under braking and planted rear end, and this confusion comes from thinking the EBD cars have more downforce than current cars.

It's actually there in the article you posted.
More downforce doesn't mean more stability.

Regardless of the downforce level the drivers are right on the edge of adhesion. They are using all the grip available. In the context of the discussion here what matters is the aero balance not the total amount of aero.

pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

F1Oz wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm

It's the updates ear marked for Perez's car, they needn't need to tell the world that Stroll's car was better last time out.

You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.
It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.
If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.
I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless
Webber didn't like the new front wing, he just likes to play the victim.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Siao7
Posts: 8627
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:59 pm
F1Oz wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm


You can't honestly believe Perez will get the updates and Stroll not if only one set are available. It's not going to happen earmarked for Perez's car or not.

If the team hadn't told the press about the upgrades then surely Perez would have. It sounds better coming from the team and I'm sure they know that.
It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.
If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.
I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless
Webber didn't like the new front wing, he just likes to play the victim.
He did like it. After Seb took it!

pokerman
Posts: 35327
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:44 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:59 pm
F1Oz wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

It's not going to look good then if Perez doesn't get the upgrades after they've told us he will get the upgrades bearing in mind that you're adamant that we will find out anyway.
If it comes to it they'll just say there is only one set and Stroll is ahead in the championship. Even I'm not convinced that in itself is unfair. (Of course I don't believe for a second Stroll is ahead in the championship fairly but that's another matter.) It's obvious if they've only got one set Stroll gets them. He did in Mugello I don't see what has changed for Sochi.
I think if only one set Stroll will get it again - this was the point of Webber"s comment at the British GP - Vettel damaged his upgraded front wing in practice then RBR gave Webber's new wing to Seb and forced Mark to use the old spec - but Webber won the race regardless
Webber didn't like the new front wing, he just likes to play the victim.
He did like it. After Seb took it!
:nod: :lol:
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

BMWSauber84
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Well Aston Martin will be able to use the 2020 Merc rear end next year without eating into their development tokens. This bodes rather well for Vettel.

pc27b
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:17 pm
Location: illinois

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by pc27b »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:56 am
Well Aston Martin will be able to use the 2020 Merc rear end next year without eating into their development tokens. This bodes rather well for Vettel.
yep, and anything else they "take pictures" of lol

it will be interesting if a change of scenery revitalizes vettel

schumilegend
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Could next year be Vettel's final nail in the coffin?

Post by schumilegend »

I can see Vettel do well but cmmon we are talking about comparing him to Strol!!... it really wouldn’t make much of a difference .. I hope he doesn’t end up like a Kimi - happy with a paycheck and a car that will get a podium once a while

Post Reply