2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

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KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?

F1_Ernie
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:01 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:39 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:34 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:29 pm
FormulaFun wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:26 pm


Yea but Bottas has equal machinery compared to Hamilton and never ever challenges him during the race, only seems to win when he is able to qualify ahead and hang onto a victory. Albon doesn't have equal machinery to verstappen and it's quite clear that red bull only care about max
The same use to happen with Rosberg though, the fights on track generally always happened when Hamilton qualified behind and the car was more dominant then.
Remember Bahrain 2014? Rosberg lost the lead at the start and then came back at Hamilton to attack him for the lead on lap 18 and 19 on equal tyres.

Remember Spain 2014? Rosberg hustled Hamilton for 66 laps and never let him breathe. He was even in the DRS zone at the end of the race.

Remember USA 2015? Rosberg drops down to 5th at the start, then overtakes both Red Bulls and Hamilton to lead by mid-race.

Now when Bottas is behind Hamilton on lap 1, do you ever expect him to challenge?
3 races over 3 seasons? Not exactly something to shout about.
Malaysia 2013 - team orders

Korea 2013 - Rosberg overtakes Hamilton but then his front wing collapsed

Hungary 2016 - pushed him hard for 70 laps

6 races in 4 years might not seem like a lot, but that’s still 6 races more than Bottas has managed in a similar timeframe.
Well I was looking back at the championship years so 4 races in 3 years. 4 races I suppose is better than none but is not exactly consistent and does support what I said that the fights on tracks generally always happened when Hamilton qualified behind and they did/do with Rosberg and Bottas.
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schumilegend
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by schumilegend »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
No doubt...Can anyone imagine Bottas dominating for 4 straight years even with the best car!?!?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:27 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
No doubt...Can anyone imagine Bottas dominating for 4 straight years even with the best car!?!?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
No chance unless the car is both very dominant and a bottom of the field driver is in the second car, and even then the dominance would probably be underwhelming. In other words, no.

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Mort Canard
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Carlos passed Kimi on lap 33 and was only about 6 seconds behind Pierre. I was surprised that he sat 1.5-2 seconds behind Pierre for so many laps after catching him. He should have had more of a go at Gasly earlier and still would have had time for his tires to cool down if it didn't work. He had 20 laps to catch and pass Gasly. If it was doable, he should not have needed more laps than he had.
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schumilegend
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by schumilegend »

Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
Personally, before Vettel became so bad
Vettel>Rosberg>Barichello>Webber>=Bottas
If we judge Vettel on current form
Rosberg>Vettel>=Barrichello>Webber>=Bottas

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

I came across damning footage of Hamilton heading to the stewards to argue his case. It looks like he actually really meant business.


Fiki
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

Clarky wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:00 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:15 pm
purchville wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:11 pm
Fiki wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:03 pm
I don't often vote for the winner as driver of the day, but I did this time. And well in time too. Still, even though I am delighted for Pierre, it's all due to the use of the Spectacle Car.
No, it's all due to a multi WDC making a bad error
Which he wouldn't have made without the use of the Spectacle Car in the first place. What I do find strange is that he didn't get a timely radio call to warn him not to come in. Then again, I'm against remote control racing, so I'm glad he didn't get one.
It was confirmed that he was told to box on the radio.
I don't doubt that.
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Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:27 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
No doubt...Can anyone imagine Bottas dominating for 4 straight years even with the best car!?!?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, with No 1 treatment and Webber (or any out of Albon, Gasly, Kvyat) in the second car - yes, of course!

KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.

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DFWdude
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by DFWdude »

What rankles me the most about these stop and go penalties is that before the race, the commentators mentioned several records on offer to Hamilton had he finished on the podium. Can't recall all of the possibilities, but one of them was most consecuitive podium finishes. Again, there were several records up for grabs. And this draconian Hamilton penalty has queered all of them. Discuss...

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Agree with Vettel and Rosberg probably on a par. I think Bottas and Barrichello are closer to those two than Webber who is a way down on them.

KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:12 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Agree with Vettel and Rosberg probably on a par. I think Bottas and Barrichello are closer to those two than Webber who is a way down on them.
If we look at 2014-2016, I believe that Massa was only slightly worse than Bottas overall. In the 46 races where both Williams cars finished, Massa was ahead 23 times and Bottas ahead 23 times. Massa was probably past it by that point too.

You don’t rate Massa, so you think he’s down there with Webber?

I think that the difference between Bottas/Rubens and Massa/Webber is minimal.

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Johnson
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

People saying Bottas is fighting Max for P2 in the WDC and Rosberg was doing much better. Do you forget who Hamilton won the WDC from in 2015? When he sealed the title, he sealed it because he was over 75 points ahead of Vettel in the WDC. Vettel was 2nd in the WDC in 2015 after 17 races. The Mercedes won 17-20 races but Rosberg was close to Vettel all year in the standings, until the very end.

VettelsFinger
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by VettelsFinger »

DFWdude wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm
What rankles me the most about these stop and go penalties is that before the race, the commentators mentioned several records on offer to Hamilton had he finished on the podium. Can't recall all of the possibilities, but one of them was most consecuitive podium finishes. Again, there were several records up for grabs. And this draconian Hamilton penalty has queered all of them. Discuss...
But didn't he finish 5th in the opener anyway due to time penalty and Brazil last year? Penalty was harsh anyway imo. Could have been a drive through at worst.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:20 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:12 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Agree with Vettel and Rosberg probably on a par. I think Bottas and Barrichello are closer to those two than Webber who is a way down on them.
If we look at 2014-2016, I believe that Massa was only slightly worse than Bottas overall. In the 46 races where both Williams cars finished, Massa was ahead 23 times and Bottas ahead 23 times. Massa was probably past it by that point too.

You don’t rate Massa, so you think he’s down there with Webber?

I think that the difference between Bottas/Rubens and Massa/Webber is minimal.
Just some facts:

Qualifying Bottas vs. Massa as teammates
41 : 18
seasons: 3 : 0

Points Bottas vs. Massa as teammates
407 : 308
seasons: 3 : 0

I would say Bottas clearly beat Massa.

KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:32 pm
People saying Bottas is fighting Max for P2 in the WDC and Rosberg was doing much better. Do you forget who Hamilton won the WDC from in 2015? When he sealed the title, he sealed it because he was over 75 points ahead of Vettel in the WDC. Vettel was 2nd in the WDC in 2015 after 17 races. The Mercedes won 17-20 races but Rosberg was close to Vettel all year in the standings, until the very end.
At the end of the season, the gap between Vettel and Rosberg was 44 points, which isn’t really that close. Also, Rosberg was the unluckiest driver of the top 3 with his mechanical retirements in Monza and Russia. Adjusted for unreliability the gap between Vettel and Rosberg was about 70 points.

Right now Verstappen is level with Bottas despite losing more points than Bottas due to unreliability.

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Johnson
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

So hard to blame anyone for that, closing the pit lane on a SC - I can not remember it ever happening. It’s a once in a decade occurrence. Mercedes had about 10 seconds to react and gave the call to pit. There wasn’t time for a discussion, I can’t see how Hamilton can over rule his team even if he saw the boards. Because what if they were shown in error too - he loses the race. Do you trust the board or your team in a split decision.

Giovinazzi, I am not sure where he was running but there was no reason for that mistake. It was obvious by that point. He hadn’t been lapped I’m sure.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:53 pm
So hard to blame anyone for that, closing the pit lane on a SC - I can not remember it ever happening. It’s a once in a decade occurrence. Mercedes had about 10 seconds to react and gave the call to pit. There wasn’t time for a discussion, I can’t see how Hamilton can over rule his team even if he saw the boards. Because what if they were shown in error too - he loses the race. Do you trust the board or your team in a split decision.

Giovinazzi, I am not sure where he was running but there was no reason for that mistake. It was obvious by that point. He hadn’t been lapped I’m sure.
I do think red flags, red lights and similar signals need to be followed by drivers irrespective of what the team says. Otherwise, it can get really dangerous.

Just imagine the marshals were already rolling the car along the pit entry ...

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

All in all I think we can reflect on something quite amazing. Gasly is the first true "shock winner" of a race in the turbo hybrid era. There have been upsets and surprise winners, and even shock podium sitters, but the winners have all from the three teams you would expect to be there or thereabouts at least. This is the first true shock win in F1 since perhaps Maldonado in 2012.

In some ways, despite the Merc dominance, it was always a bit more likely to happen than in the previous few seasons now that Ferrari are a midfield car. It still took an extraordinary set of circumstances though.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:43 pm
I came across damning footage of Hamilton heading to the stewards to argue his case. It looks like he actually really meant business.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:20 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:12 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Agree with Vettel and Rosberg probably on a par. I think Bottas and Barrichello are closer to those two than Webber who is a way down on them.
If we look at 2014-2016, I believe that Massa was only slightly worse than Bottas overall. In the 46 races where both Williams cars finished, Massa was ahead 23 times and Bottas ahead 23 times. Massa was probably past it by that point too.

You don’t rate Massa, so you think he’s down there with Webber?

I think that the difference between Bottas/Rubens and Massa/Webber is minimal.
I'd definitely rate Massa below Bottas and Barrichello. I think there time at Williams showed Bottas was a bit better.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by wolfticket »

DFWdude wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm
What rankles me the most about these stop and go penalties is that before the race, the commentators mentioned several records on offer to Hamilton had he finished on the podium. Can't recall all of the possibilities, but one of them was most consecuitive podium finishes. Again, there were several records up for grabs. And this draconian Hamilton penalty has queered all of them. Discuss...
In principle violations that compromise fair racing, gaining from cutting a chicane or jumping the start for instance, can be proportionate to the racing advantage gained.

On the other hand the penalties for violations that compromise safety have to be draconian and somewhat disproportionate to any advantage in order to act as a strong deterrent by virtue of potential consequences.

The two are often, and shouldn't be, conflated. Entering a closed pitlane is the latter so is penalised as such.
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kleefton
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by kleefton »

The people comparing Rosberg and Bottas seem to have forgotten that Rosberg had it much easier because the 14-16' Merc was quite a bit more dominant than the 2017-2019 cars. Rosberg really only had Hamilton to worry about. Bottas had to worry about Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and even Kimi to a lesser extent. Just made it a lot tougher. Rosberg had more of an attitude to him and was more of a fighter, but speed wise they are probably the same. I'd give the qualifying edge to Bottas and give the race to Rosberg

Also Vettel > Bottas for me. I cannot picture Bottas executing that 2012 Brazil drive that secured Vettel's third championship. Vettel is also a lot more agressive in wheel to wheel combat, will not spend his whole Sunday afternoons behind cars he is faster than, even if he sometimes gets it wrong. To me it seems very unfair to claim that Vettel at his best = Bottas. Not a chance.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

kleefton wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:19 am
The people comparing Rosberg and Bottas seem to have forgotten that Rosberg had it much easier because the 14-16' Merc was quite a bit more dominant than the 2017-2019 cars. Rosberg really only had Hamilton to worry about. Bottas had to worry about Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen and even Kimi to a lesser extent. Just made it a lot tougher. Rosberg had more of an attitude to him and was more of a fighter, but speed wise they are probably the same. I'd give the qualifying edge to Bottas and give the race to Rosberg

Also Vettel > Bottas for me. I cannot picture Bottas executing that 2012 Brazil drive that secured Vettel's third championship. Vettel is also a lot more agressive in wheel to wheel combat, will not spend his whole Sunday afternoons behind cars he is faster than, even if he sometimes gets it wrong. To me it seems very unfair to claim that Vettel at his best = Bottas. Not a chance.
But don't the stats show that Rosberg was closer on average in qualifying? Also he quite regularly gave Hamilton a sound beating in qualifying IIRC. It wasn't a case of Hamilton being edged out as is typically the case with Bottas, but Rosberg quite regularly put tenths on Hamilton.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

DFWdude wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm
What rankles me the most about these stop and go penalties is that before the race, the commentators mentioned several records on offer to Hamilton had he finished on the podium. Can't recall all of the possibilities, but one of them was most consecuitive podium finishes. Again, there were several records up for grabs. And this draconian Hamilton penalty has queered all of them. Discuss...
Hamilton is not entitled to records. As unfortunate as it was, he broke a rule - a safety rule - and received the punishment listed in the regulations for that infraction.

Also, Hamilton finished 4th in Austria and Brazil. Schumacher had the entire 2002 season on the podium, so Hamilton was definitely not even close to this record on his run of 6 going into this race. The consecutive record he was on was points finishes - which he maintained - plus he now equally Nick Heidfeld's record of consecutive race finishes (42) - so no damage was done to this.

It has denied Hamilton equalling Schumacher's win record at Ferrari's 1000th Grand Prix - which would have been a macabre spectacle to have taken place - but ultimately Hamilton only has himself to blame.

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bourbon19
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by bourbon19 »

This race was a catastrophe for Vettel fans. Beginning with P1 till his break failure. And at Monza too. Shame. Charles did not help the team with his crash, but to be fair, he would have likely been passed back to P14 or 15 anyway as the car is a royal mess. As a F1 fan, it was pretty cool to see the mid-grid taking the podium - it was handed to them, so that puts a bit of a sting in it, but at least there was a tiny bit of excitement based on the possibility of Sainz passing. Hamilton made a nice comeback and I thought Bottas did a pretty good job with mechanical issues. He's much better than the commentators tend to give him credit for, imo. Pity we lost Verstappen as this was probably one of his few opportunities on the season.

A fond farewell to Williams - I am glad they played the driver radios as they paid tribute.

Here's to a better Monza II.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Exediron »

bourbon19 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:13 am
As a F1 fan, it was pretty cool to see the mid-grid taking the podium - it was handed to them, so that puts a bit of a sting in it, but at least there was a tiny bit of excitement based on the possibility of Sainz passing.
Only one of the three places was handed to the midfield; Sainz was on that podium regardless, and Norris was in 3rd before all the chicanery. This was simply a day where Red Bull became lost in the midfield (and Bottas, due to circumstance rather than outright pace) and that opened up the podium.
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Fiki »

DFWdude wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:09 pm
What rankles me the most about these stop and go penalties is that before the race, the commentators mentioned several records on offer to Hamilton had he finished on the podium. Can't recall all of the possibilities, but one of them was most consecuitive podium finishes. Again, there were several records up for grabs. And this draconian Hamilton penalty has queered all of them. Discuss...
Records have to be won, they're not awards. While I do believe the mistake was easily made, I am convinced the drivers pay less attention to certain things than they could/should/would because they are being remote controlled.

I don't see why you call the penalty draconian.
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Covalent
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Covalent »

Congratulations F1, first non-big-three win since 2013.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Harpo »

Covalent wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:24 am
Congratulations F1, first non-big-three win since 2013.
Not even one of them on the podium...
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Like me you like to do the cross comparisons but with this you're just using personal opinion, Vettel beat Webber to a similar level he beat Kimi, we know that Kimi and Massa are close to even, Bottas beat Massa, let's not be saying it was close because it wasn't.
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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

It makes sense that it happened this year. There is no longer a blanket at the top of proceedings as thick as in recent years. Instead of relying on the misfortune of 6 cars, it's now 4 cars. Still quite unlikely but it opens up a sliver of opportunity.

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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:28 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Invade wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:15 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:11 pm
I still think that Vettel at his best (2011-2013 or 2015 or even 2017) is comfortably a better driver than Bottas.

Bottas is more like Rubens or Webber.
How do you rate Rosberg vs Vettel? Vettel>Rosberg>>Bottas/Rubens/Webber?
I think that Vettel and Rosberg are overall at a similar level looking at their careers as a whole, with Vettel having higher peaks and lower lows.

Bottas, Webber and Barrichello are all the same to me.
Like me you like to do the cross comparisons but with this you're just using personal opinion, Vettel beat Webber to a similar level he beat Kimi, we know that Kimi and Massa are close to even, Bottas beat Massa, let's not be saying it was close because it wasn't.
Qualifying pace is not the be all end all of driver ability.

Bottas can probably match Vettel on Saturday, but Vettel has more redeeming qualities than Bottas as a driver. He’s better at starts, better at tyre management, probably has better race pace, and has better racecraft (neither has great racecraft but I rate Vettel as the better overtaker).

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.

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Invade
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
I'm not sure if that's high praise for Bottas or damning for Vettel. It seems you have Vettel, Rosberg and Bottas in the same bracket?

Is Vettel a top-30 driver of all-time?


I'd love to see your top-30 list Mikey I'm sure you've got one. ;)

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
I'm not sure if that's high praise for Bottas or damning for Vettel. It seems you have Vettel, Rosberg and Bottas in the same bracket?

Is Vettel a top-30 driver of all-time?


I'd love to see your top-30 list Mikey I'm sure you've got one. ;)
In terms of ability I'd put Vettel and Rosberg at a similar level with Bottas a tiny bit down.

I have a top 100 greatest list but when talking about greatness achievement has to be weighted which bumps Vettel up a lot in comparison to those 2. I have Vettel in the top 20 and Rosberg just misses out on the top 30.

KingVoid
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
Depends. Are you talking about Vettel at his best or Vettel now?

People often talk about prime Raikkonen (2003-2006) and the current Raikkonen in different terms because they are almost considered two different drivers.

It’s about time that we gave Vettel the same treatment, or is he not old enough yet?

mikeyg123
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:16 pm
Vettel does also make a lot more mistakes than Bottas as well. I think they're pretty close.
Depends. Are you talking about Vettel at his best or Vettel now?

People often talk about prime Raikkonen (2003-2006) and the current Raikkonen in different terms because they are almost considered two different drivers.

It’s about time that we gave Vettel the same treatment, or is he not old enough yet?
I don't think he's different enough. Or at least that's not proven. He went from easily beating Webber to easily beating Kimi. It's to convenient to now say Vettel's suddenly had a big decline just because he's now being beaten by a different team mate. Especially as we have seen the same thing happen with Ricciardo as well.

Kimi's change was much more dramatic and much more obvious. I mean, if Vettel goes to RP next year and gets beaten by Stroll then perhaps you're getting evidence of a big decline. Right now we don't have that.

I think he just isn't running at the front now and many more mistakes are the result of that. We've always seen that from him really. Right from the beginning of his career.

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