Williams

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Zazu
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Williams

Post by Zazu »

Up for sale

First thing any investor is going to do is follow the other small team blue print and get parts from the manufactures

Amazed Claire Williams still hasn't stepped down.

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klevispin
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Re: Williams

Post by klevispin »

I'm a big Claire Williams fan and I've desperately hoped for the team to make the changes that they need to do in order to be competitive but, much as I'd love her to stay on, I think Claire Williams needs to go as she's too stuck in the past with regards to what an F1 team is.

I've seen numerous interviews over the years and she often goes on about them being a real manufacturer and taking pride in the fact that they basically make near everything from scratch themselves and implying that you're something of a lightweight or customer team if you so much as buy a bolt off the shelf.

I love their history, I love her passion and commitment but I think they need someone without the emotional baggage who can come in make good, long term decisions. She said in the Drive to Survive that they wouldn't save much by buying a gearbox as they'd have to pay off their staff with redundancies from that department - but I think they need to bite the bullet and adapt to the world of motorsport as it currently is. Take a leaf out of Racing Point or Haas's book. You're not betraying your past by doing what you need to do to survive.

I really hope they find a buyer / investor who gets the team and who can make the changes needed to get them back to the front.
Watching from the cheap seats.

Charles LeBrad
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Re: Williams

Post by Charles LeBrad »

klevispin wrote:She said in the Drive to Survive that they wouldn't save much by buying a gearbox as they'd have to pay off their staff with redundancies from that department - but I think they need to bite the bullet and adapt to the world of motorsport as it currently is.
100%. That is pretty dumb logic tbh. Yeah you might have to pay redundancies if they can’t be placed elsewhere, but that would be a once off payout. So you’d take a hit year 1, but you’d be saving money in the long run.

Is she thinking she’d have to be paying for gearboxes + redundancies forever?

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tim3003
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Re: Williams

Post by tim3003 »

Sad news, but not in the least surprising. I hope the team will be renamed, and not carry on as a shadow of what it once was. As has been mentioned Claire will have to go, and the whole ethos come into the 21st Century. What emerges will have nothing to do with Frank and Patrick's successful past, so it should be separated from it by a new identity. We don't want the Lotus name saga to be repeated..

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jimmyj
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Re: Williams

Post by jimmyj »

klevispin wrote:I'm a big Claire Williams fan and I've desperately hoped for the team to make the changes that they need to do in order to be competitive but, much as I'd love her to stay on, I think Claire Williams needs to go as she's too stuck in the past with regards to what an F1 team is.

I've seen numerous interviews over the years and she often goes on about them being a real manufacturer and taking pride in the fact that they basically make near everything from scratch themselves and implying that you're something of a lightweight or customer team if you so much as buy a bolt off the shelf.

I love their history, I love her passion and commitment but I think they need someone without the emotional baggage who can come in make good, long term decisions. She said in the Drive to Survive that they wouldn't save much by buying a gearbox as they'd have to pay off their staff with redundancies from that department - but I think they need to bite the bullet and adapt to the world of motorsport as it currently is. Take a leaf out of Racing Point or Haas's book. You're not betraying your past by doing what you need to do to survive.

I really hope they find a buyer / investor who gets the team and who can make the changes needed to get them back to the front.
Well said. I love Williams and hope something good can come of this.

Zazu
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Re: Williams

Post by Zazu »

“The investment that we're looking for is going to help us achieve that. So for me, this is a good thing what we're doing, and it shouldn't be looked at in a negative, disappointing way, or anything other than positive"

How does she still have a job?!

I cant think of a worse managed team in the entire time i've been watching F1 (20+years). This crazy ideology they could compete with the big manufactures on a fraction of the budget whilst keeping everything in house has caused all this mess. It was an absolute no brainer when they have had the best engine in the hybrid era. Theyre now trying to find investment whilst the entire world economy is stagnant and they are glued to the back of the grid for the forseeable future

Siao7
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Re: Williams

Post by Siao7 »

Zazu wrote:“The investment that we're looking for is going to help us achieve that. So for me, this is a good thing what we're doing, and it shouldn't be looked at in a negative, disappointing way, or anything other than positive"

How does she still have a job?!

I cant think of a worse managed team in the entire time i've been watching F1 (20+years). This crazy ideology they could compete with the big manufactures on a fraction of the budget whilst keeping everything in house has caused all this mess. It was an absolute no brainer when they have had the best engine in the hybrid era. Theyre now trying to find investment whilst the entire world economy is stagnant and they are glued to the back of the grid for the forseeable future
That statement is as close to a Ronspeak as it gets for me.

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Re: Williams

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I know you mean Ron Dennis, but I couldn't help but think L. Ron Hubbard and his gift for all thing BS!!! LMAO!!!
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Siao7
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Re: Williams

Post by Siao7 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

I know you mean Ron Dennis, but I couldn't help but think L. Ron Hubbard and his gift for all thing BS!!! LMAO!!!
:D

j man
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Re: Williams

Post by j man »

Zazu wrote:“The investment that we're looking for is going to help us achieve that. So for me, this is a good thing what we're doing, and it shouldn't be looked at in a negative, disappointing way, or anything other than positive"

How does she still have a job?!

I cant think of a worse managed team in the entire time i've been watching F1 (20+years). This crazy ideology they could compete with the big manufactures on a fraction of the budget whilst keeping everything in house has caused all this mess. It was an absolute no brainer when they have had the best engine in the hybrid era. Theyre now trying to find investment whilst the entire world economy is stagnant and they are glued to the back of the grid for the forseeable future
Whilst I agree that Williams' approach is not really feasible in the current F1 environment, I would still applaud them for sticking to their principles and at least trying to do things properly. For the sake of the purity of the competition I would much rather have Williams glued to the back of the grid than replace them with another Toro Rosso / Alpha Tauri or whatever ghastly marketing exercise they've been turned into now.

Williams' desire to design and build their own car should not be an unrealistic goal for an F1 team. That they are not able to do so while competing as a sustainable operation should reflect more poorly on F1 than it does on Williams.

mikeyg123
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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

j man wrote:
Zazu wrote:“The investment that we're looking for is going to help us achieve that. So for me, this is a good thing what we're doing, and it shouldn't be looked at in a negative, disappointing way, or anything other than positive"

How does she still have a job?!

I cant think of a worse managed team in the entire time i've been watching F1 (20+years). This crazy ideology they could compete with the big manufactures on a fraction of the budget whilst keeping everything in house has caused all this mess. It was an absolute no brainer when they have had the best engine in the hybrid era. Theyre now trying to find investment whilst the entire world economy is stagnant and they are glued to the back of the grid for the forseeable future
Whilst I agree that Williams' approach is not really feasible in the current F1 environment, I would still applaud them for sticking to their principles and at least trying to do things properly. For the sake of the purity of the competition I would much rather have Williams glued to the back of the grid than replace them with another Toro Rosso / Alpha Tauri or whatever ghastly marketing exercise they've been turned into now.

Williams' desire to design and build their own car should not be an unrealistic goal for an F1 team. That they are not able to do so while competing as a sustainable operation should reflect more poorly on F1 than it does on Williams.
I agree 100%. The model they run should be applauded. The environment they run it in is the problem. We need more Williams and less Alpha Tauri if F1 is to improve and get more competitive.

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DOLOMITE
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Re: Williams

Post by DOLOMITE »

I understand what Claire is saying but I also see straight through it. This must have been one painful decision to have come to.
No one is falling for the "it's a positive thing" BS - it's a last resort and we all know they would only consider when all other options have failed.

What's not really being acknowledged out loud is that whilst this ensure the survival of a team and therefore a workforce, whatever is painted on the car, it signals the end of Williams. As a team Williams 'brand' is built on the family, the history and the fierce independence in how they operate.

Once that control, that identify-defining level of character is diluted or gone, the brand is gone. It won't be Williams if a Williams isn't in charge or is being compromised in their decisions. I know there are countless other examples you could cite where the team has lived on with the originators name after they have gone (Brabham, Sauber, McLaren, even Ferrari) but this feels different to me at least.

I'll be happy to see the Williams name stay on because we all love tradition and history in this sport, but I won't view the team with the same level of affection. Sad days indeed.
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kimandsally
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Re: Williams

Post by kimandsally »

I look forward to the nest 3-4 years I think things are in place for recovery Paddy Lowe has a lot to answer for in this saga.

Claire is taking a lot of flak when it's not her fault that a top designer made the worst job of his career she did the right thing and sacked him, it will take time to recover from that.
The new rules down the line will help no end,

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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

kimandsally wrote:I look forward to the nest 3-4 years I think things are in place for recovery Paddy Lowe has a lot to answer for in this saga.

Claire is taking a lot of flak when it's not her fault that a top designer made the worst job of his career she did the right thing and sacked him, it will take time to recover from that.
The new rules down the line will help no end,
What did Paddy do wrong?

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Exediron
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Re: Williams

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
kimandsally wrote:I look forward to the nest 3-4 years I think things are in place for recovery Paddy Lowe has a lot to answer for in this saga.

Claire is taking a lot of flak when it's not her fault that a top designer made the worst job of his career she did the right thing and sacked him, it will take time to recover from that.
The new rules down the line will help no end,
What did Paddy do wrong?
Well, he oversaw the development of an absolutely awful car. The guy in charge of the technical department can't be absolved of all blame for such a categorical failure of a design.
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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kimandsally wrote:I look forward to the nest 3-4 years I think things are in place for recovery Paddy Lowe has a lot to answer for in this saga.

Claire is taking a lot of flak when it's not her fault that a top designer made the worst job of his career she did the right thing and sacked him, it will take time to recover from that.
The new rules down the line will help no end,
What did Paddy do wrong?
Well, he oversaw the development of an absolutely awful car. The guy in charge of the technical department can't be absolved of all blame for such a categorical failure of a design.
It seems odd to me that someone with a very good track record suddenly just did a bad job.

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F1 MERCENARY
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Re: Williams

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

DOLOMITE wrote:As a team Williams 'brand' is built on the family, the history and the fierce independence in how they operate.

Once that control, that identify-defining level of character is diluted or gone, the brand is gone. It won't be Williams if a Williams isn't in charge or is being compromised in their decisions. I know there are countless other examples you could cite where the team has lived on with the originators name after they have gone (Brabham, Sauber, McLaren, even Ferrari) but this feels different to me at least.
It only feels different because Williams or more like Ferrari in that they've been in it from day 1 and have been self sustaining all this time without the assistance of anyone, with the exception of the BMW era which always felt like an embattled existence with BMW wanting to call the shots over Frank and Patrick. Sauber has been in it for less time, but they've switched hands several times over the years, and while I love the team and their founder and feel they should be a mainstay in F1, they don't have the rich history in the sport to the likes and level of Williams.

Ferrari is different in that regardless what's going on with the parent company, the F1 operation is for all intents and purposes a sole entity tied to the road car division for the old adage of win on Sunday, sell on Monday, and the images of the Tifosi supporting the brand in every single palce around the globe helps them sell product like no other which generates revenue.

McLaren was started by Bruce and then was led by Teddy Mayer after his passing and the team was quite successful under his leadership across several disciplines, but eventually they merged with Ron Dennis' Project 4 Racing thanks to Marlboro forcing Teddy Mayer out in favor of Ron, with whom they had a standing relationship with. The question there in is, did McLaren cease to exist and Project 4 was merely re-badged as McLaren or was it the other way around? Either way, as far as I recall, McLaren has never been thought of as not being the same McLaren it always was, so I'm not so sure Williams would be thought of differently either. The vast majority of existing personnel will remain and will continue to do the work, only with new leadership in certain areas, just as Sauber has under it's new Alpha Romeo branding. It's still Sauber F1 to me.
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Arbitrarius
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Re: Williams

Post by Arbitrarius »

I think it's remarkable that Williams lasted this long with the same ethos they had in the 90's. For me, the decline began in 1998. I remember seeing the Winfield cars pootling around and being amazed how quickly the team had fallen. The loss of Adrian Newey and Renault was massive, and the purism of Frank Williams and Patrick Head meant that Williams were always going to find it hard to turn things around.
The brief renaissance with BMW sadly didn't lead anywhere and I suspect the appointment of Claire Williams was more about ensuring that the Williams philosophy continued than anything else.

It will be interesting to see who buys Williams in such an economic environment. A company like Mahindra? A Middle-East investment company? SAIC or Geely?

mikeyg123
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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

Reports that Toto has bought a 5% share in Williams. That now gives him a financial interest in three different teams.

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Re: Williams

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Reports that Toto has bought a 5% share in Williams. That now gives him a financial interest in three different teams.
I’m surprised there isn’t some sort of rule against that on the basis of conflict of interest.

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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Reports that Toto has bought a 5% share in Williams. That now gives him a financial interest in three different teams.
I’m surprised there isn’t some sort of rule against that on the basis of conflict of interest.
Well I guess if someone can fully own two teams having a minority stake it three is almost small beer.

I remember Flavio buying Ligier in 95 just so he could transfer the Renault Engine supply to Bennetton.

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Re: Williams

Post by Asphalt_World »

What we need is for Toto to move to Williams now and start sorting things out from the inside!!!!!
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Arbitrarius
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Re: Williams

Post by Arbitrarius »

mikeyg123 wrote:Reports that Toto has bought a 5% share in Williams. That now gives him a financial interest in three different teams.
Do you have a source for that? I know he had shares in Williams previously - he sold his last shares in Williams in 2016 - but it would seem strange to buy into a 3rd team. Then again, an investment is an investment and it didn't really trouble anyone in F1 when he had a 30% stake in Mercedes F1 and 15% in Williams at the same time and I doubt it would be a problem now.

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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

Arbitrarius wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Reports that Toto has bought a 5% share in Williams. That now gives him a financial interest in three different teams.
Do you have a source for that? I know he had shares in Williams previously - he sold his last shares in Williams in 2016 - but it would seem strange to buy into a 3rd team. Then again, an investment is an investment and it didn't really trouble anyone in F1 when he had a 30% stake in Mercedes F1 and 15% in Williams at the same time and I doubt it would be a problem now.
Peter Windsor on Twitter.

Arbitrarius
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Re: Williams

Post by Arbitrarius »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Arbitrarius wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Reports that Toto has bought a 5% share in Williams. That now gives him a financial interest in three different teams.
Do you have a source for that? I know he had shares in Williams previously - he sold his last shares in Williams in 2016 - but it would seem strange to buy into a 3rd team. Then again, an investment is an investment and it didn't really trouble anyone in F1 when he had a 30% stake in Mercedes F1 and 15% in Williams at the same time and I doubt it would be a problem now.
Peter Windsor on Twitter.
Thanks! Windsor has tweeted a correction of sorts. Wolff hasn't bought a 5% stake in Williams:

Peter Windsor:
Re Toto's 5 per cent in WilliamsF1: Merc point out that it is a Security and thus technically not a "buy-back". A Security is "a first-priority Interest in favour of the Security Agent in respect of all of the shares in such Owner". Make of that what you will.


I think the security agent is the entity arranging the sale, and Wolff has put himself in a position of priority for 5%.

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Re: Williams

Post by Flash2k11 »

Didn't Briatore have a similar sort of thing going on in the 90s? Benneton, Ligier and I think Minardi he had a stake in.
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kimandsally
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Re: Williams

Post by kimandsally »

Pleased Toto has invested it shows he believes in Williams as they say money talks.

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Re: Williams

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kimandsally wrote:I look forward to the nest 3-4 years I think things are in place for recovery Paddy Lowe has a lot to answer for in this saga.

Claire is taking a lot of flak when it's not her fault that a top designer made the worst job of his career she did the right thing and sacked him, it will take time to recover from that.
The new rules down the line will help no end,
What did Paddy do wrong?
Well, he oversaw the development of an absolutely awful car. The guy in charge of the technical department can't be absolved of all blame for such a categorical failure of a design.
You and Exediron seem to know for sure what happened within Williams to know for sure that Paddy Lowe is to blame for Williams' current state.

This is what I just wrote in the Mercedes F1 thread…
F1 MERCENARY wrote:If you read Montoya's opinion on Williams' current situation, you'd likely have seen the bit about how William's biggest problem is in HOW they utilize the top talent they recruit and hire. He feels they force people the likes of Paddy Lowe into performing job duties that are perhaps not their strong suit and thus create and build on their problems rather than right the ship, and I am inclined to agree.

With Paddy Lowe specifically, before being rehired by Williams, the teams he was with enjoyed periods of excellent performance success. However, once he reached Williams, much like Rob Smedley and others before him, we didn't get to see them in their usual roles and the team didn't improve much at all. When you acquire personnel the likes of a Paddy Lowe and a James Allen, a Ross Brawn, and Jean Todt, A Flavio Briatore, A Pat Frye, you have to let these people do what they do best in order for them to best help lead the team towards the front of the grid. Otherwise you end up with the cluster "YOU-KNOW-WHAT" we're seeing with Williams where the team's only hope now is to be sold and have nothing to do with the family/brand anymore.
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Re: Williams

Post by pc27b »

i made my peace with williams, not being williams anymore a few seasons ago. at the moment, yes williams is still a constructor and run by a williams. i just figured their downward spiral was always going to end this way. someone may purchase them, even keep the name, but it isn't the same to me

from the outside it looks as if toto just made a short term investment. hoping someone offers bigger bucks than he put it. it does seem plenty are interested in taking over the team though

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Covalent
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Re: Williams

Post by Covalent »

Are they selling the rights to the Williams name as well?

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Re: Williams

Post by F1Oz »

Surely its the end of Williams

mikeyg123
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Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

pc27b wrote:i made my peace with williams, not being williams anymore a few seasons ago. at the moment, yes williams is still a constructor and run by a williams. i just figured their downward spiral was always going to end this way. someone may purchase them, even keep the name, but it isn't the same to me

from the outside it looks as if toto just made a short term investment. hoping someone offers bigger bucks than he put it. it does seem plenty are interested in taking over the team though
I think that's a little harsh. People act like Williams have been at the back for forever but they were on the podium only a few seasons ago. Outside the big three they are still the most successful team in the Turbo era.

G926
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Re: Williams

Post by G926 »

Williams Racing sold to Dorilton Capital

https://twitter.com/Jamesallenonf1/stat ... 95936?s=20

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Williams

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Covalent wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:38 am
Are they selling the rights to the Williams name as well?
No name or chassis name changes apparently, now that the sale has gone through.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... l/4860536/
The announcement confirmed there are no plans to change the name of the team or the chassis, with the new owner recognising “the importance of respecting and retaining Williams’ heritage”.

There are also no plans to relocate the team from its existing base at Grove in Oxfordshire.
Makes sense IMO, unless you have a huge brand and brought the team for the exposure like Red Bull did, why would you throw away all that heritage and branding potential?

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Re: Williams

Post by Harpo »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:10 pm
Covalent wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:38 am
Are they selling the rights to the Williams name as well?
No name or chassis name changes apparently, now that the sale has gone through.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... l/4860536/
The announcement confirmed there are no plans to change the name of the team or the chassis, with the new owner recognising “the importance of respecting and retaining Williams’ heritage”.

There are also no plans to relocate the team from its existing base at Grove in Oxfordshire.
Makes sense IMO, unless you have a huge brand and brought the team for the exposure like Red Bull did, why would you throw away all that heritage and branding potential?
For now, they have no reason to change the name (though Dorilton Capital Racing would be a great name, and in accordance with the world of today), but I would be very surprised if it's still called Williams in a next future, whatever they say or sign right now.
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: Williams

Post by Zazu »

It will still be called Williams. They have 16 titles and 100+ wins. Their heritage is far more valuable than any sponsorship deal they are going to get.

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Re: Williams

Post by Beleriand_K »

wrote: For now, they have no reason to change the name (though Dorilton Capital Racing would be a great name, and in accordance with the world of today), but I would be very surprised if it's still called Williams in a next future, whatever they say or sign right now.
I think they will keep the name. Simply because there is no reason not to.

Dorilton Capital isn't a company with the need to promote a soft drink, a watch or a tobacco brand. They are a long term investment company with the intention to make money on established companies.

"We partner with companies that are led by strong management teams and have a successful history and culture. We firmly believe in our companies continuing with the elements that have made them successful." https://www.doriltoncapital.com/about/

It makes perfect sense for such a company to buy into Formula 1 at a time when most people are realizing, that it is necessary to make Formula 1 financially viable for teams outside the top 3. And what better way to enter that changed world than to buy one of the most successful and best known teams ever? And probably to a discounted price, since the alternative to a sale undoubtably was folding.

So I have no doubt that the name Williams will be around for a long time. It just won't have much to do with the Williams-family anymore.

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Re: Williams

Post by Charles LeBrad »

Beleriand_K wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:58 pm
wrote: For now, they have no reason to change the name (though Dorilton Capital Racing would be a great name, and in accordance with the world of today), but I would be very surprised if it's still called Williams in a next future, whatever they say or sign right now.
I think they will keep the name. Simply because there is no reason not to.

Dorilton Capital isn't a company with the need to promote a soft drink, a watch or a tobacco brand. They are a long term investment company with the intention to make money on established companies.

"We partner with companies that are led by strong management teams and have a successful history and culture. We firmly believe in our companies continuing with the elements that have made them successful." https://www.doriltoncapital.com/about/

It makes perfect sense for such a company to buy into Formula 1 at a time when most people are realizing, that it is necessary to make Formula 1 financially viable for teams outside the top 3. And what better way to enter that changed world than to buy one of the most successful and best known teams ever? And probably to a discounted price, since the alternative to a sale undoubtably was folding.

So I have no doubt that the name Williams will be around for a long time. It just won't have much to do with the Williams-family anymore.
I agree with this. I have a feeling they will follow the Mclaren path and keep the name and heritage

pendulumeffect
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:13 pm

Re: Williams

Post by pendulumeffect »

Williams went down the pan when they lost BMW engines. A sale to BMW then would have possibly kept them both in F1.

F1 is all about business now and if you don't have the biggest partners you are going to lose.

At least they have not simply folded but they need better engines, partnerships and sponsors.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18104
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Williams

Post by mikeyg123 »

pendulumeffect wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:21 am
Williams went down the pan when they lost BMW engines. A sale to BMW then would have possibly kept them both in F1.

F1 is all about business now and if you don't have the biggest partners you are going to lose.

At least they have not simply folded but they need better engines, partnerships and sponsors.
Selling to BMW would not have taken Williams in anyway closer to their goals given that their goals are to win as Williams. Given that BMW pulled out only a few years later anyway despite achieving good results I doubt it would have done much for them accept in the very short term.

The only thing selling to BMW would have done is make Frank Williams a bit richer and I'm not sure he really cares if he is worth £100 million or £300 million to be honest.

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