2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:44 am
https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/16/lec ... ne-glitch/

Now this is something that will be quite ridiculous if Ferrari or Leclerc don't get quite a severe penalty for. Although this was a while ago, back when Grosjean commented to whiting about some drivers (hamilton) sometimes taking their seat belt off after the finish coming back to the pits to celebrate. Even whiting then said it must be worn. So during a race, what sense would it make if Leclerc gets away with this? I guess the reason may be that it was found out too late, but still, it is simply unacceptable. It is basically no worse than continuing to drive round without your helmet on - just that would visually be more concerning.
I know were you are coming from but me personally I'm happy he drove back to the pits and we didn't have a safety car, he obviously intially undid his belts thinking that his car needed recovering.
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Covalent wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:44 am
I think talking about race bans is a serious overreaction but a simple shrug is probably too lenient. They should at least be fined or given a grid drop to send a message that this isn't ok. Especially as Leclerc didn't pit at the first possible opportunity.
I suspect he'll get a fine. Maybe some licence points

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

I didn't realise he then ventured back onto the track with his safety belts undone, now that is lunacy.
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Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

.

So, Leclerc breaking the most basic of safety rules, is regarded by at least one poster as nothing to be concerned (and Ferrari not reacting to it when they were told is likewise dismissed !)

Leclerc may be regarded as some sort of "golden boy" but he has no common sense and acted like a dangerous fool.

The Stewards and FIA have an obligation to act now that they are aware, and Leclerc severely dealt with (and Ferrari to a lesser extent).

.


.

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Badgeronimous
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:52 am
.

So, Leclerc breaking the most basic of safety rules, is regarded by at least one poster as nothing to be concerned (and Ferrari not reacting to it when they were told is likewise dismissed !)

Leclerc may be regarded as some sort of "golden boy" but he has no common sense and acted like a dangerous fool.

The Stewards and FIA have an obligation to act now that they are aware, and Leclerc severely dealt with (and Ferrari to a lesser extent).

.


.
The article on F1's own website is actually astounding.

"Over team radio, Leclerc said he wouldn’t have minded continuing without belts, but admitted he was moving forward under braking and was “pretty sure somebody wouldn’t be happy with me driving without seatbelts”, at which point Ferrari boxed him immediately."

I read that statement and think wtf was Leclerc thinking - especially admitting that over the radio.
Last edited by Badgeronimous on Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:47 am
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:44 am
https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/16/lec ... ne-glitch/

Now this is something that will be quite ridiculous if Ferrari or Leclerc don't get quite a severe penalty for. Although this was a while ago, back when Grosjean commented to whiting about some drivers (hamilton) sometimes taking their seat belt off after the finish coming back to the pits to celebrate. Even whiting then said it must be worn. So during a race, what sense would it make if Leclerc gets away with this? I guess the reason may be that it was found out too late, but still, it is simply unacceptable. It is basically no worse than continuing to drive round without your helmet on - just that would visually be more concerning.
I know were you are coming from but me personally I'm happy he drove back to the pits and we didn't have a safety car, he obviously intially undid his belts thinking that his car needed recovering.
He undid it and was correct to do so if he needed to get out as he thought his car needed recovering. But at this point when his seat belt was off, he either sound have got out or cone to the escape road. He SHOULD NOT have done TWO laps with no seat belt. That is just ridiculous...

Edit: since realised you have noted that he did this, so sorry for my reaction.

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
So whilst going round what if he had a brake failure heading towards a barrier and got thrown out of the car?

In road going cars we have seen how dangerous not wearing a seatbelt at 30mph is!

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?

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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.

Siao7
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:13 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.
The example was on the "in the end of the day" context... In the end of the day no harm for JV, right? Maybe not the best example, but as I said extreme.

And I respectfully disagree, by attempting to continue to race (and get points in a points capable car) he does alter his race result (0 points as he should have been out of the race straight away).

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:58 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:47 am
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:44 am
https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/16/lec ... ne-glitch/

Now this is something that will be quite ridiculous if Ferrari or Leclerc don't get quite a severe penalty for. Although this was a while ago, back when Grosjean commented to whiting about some drivers (hamilton) sometimes taking their seat belt off after the finish coming back to the pits to celebrate. Even whiting then said it must be worn. So during a race, what sense would it make if Leclerc gets away with this? I guess the reason may be that it was found out too late, but still, it is simply unacceptable. It is basically no worse than continuing to drive round without your helmet on - just that would visually be more concerning.
I know were you are coming from but me personally I'm happy he drove back to the pits and we didn't have a safety car, he obviously intially undid his belts thinking that his car needed recovering.
He undid it and was correct to do so if he needed to get out as he thought his car needed recovering. But at this point when his seat belt was off, he either sound have got out or cone to the escape road. He SHOULD NOT have done TWO laps with no seat belt. That is just ridiculous...

Edit: since realised you have noted that he did this, so sorry for my reaction.
Well I also then should apologise for not initially reading the link that you posted.
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:13 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.
The example was on the "in the end of the day" context... In the end of the day no harm for JV, right? Maybe not the best example, but as I said extreme.

And I respectfully disagree, by attempting to continue to race (and get points in a points capable car) he does alter his race result (0 points as he should have been out of the race straight away).
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.

Siao7
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:40 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:13 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.
The example was on the "in the end of the day" context... In the end of the day no harm for JV, right? Maybe not the best example, but as I said extreme.

And I respectfully disagree, by attempting to continue to race (and get points in a points capable car) he does alter his race result (0 points as he should have been out of the race straight away).
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.
I think I misread the exchange, as Ferrari did tell him to continue (they told him "you can try"), however I realise that this was before he informed the team about his seat belt situation. So my bad.

However I do think that doing 2 laps without a seat belt warrants a punishment. Not a race ban, but a punishment that serves as a deterrent to other drivers/teams. A very big fine and even points on his license as frankly he should have known better and just take the car in or park it at the first instance.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:40 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:13 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.
The example was on the "in the end of the day" context... In the end of the day no harm for JV, right? Maybe not the best example, but as I said extreme.

And I respectfully disagree, by attempting to continue to race (and get points in a points capable car) he does alter his race result (0 points as he should have been out of the race straight away).
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.
He obviously knew he had undone his belts, now as I've said I had no problem if he had come straight back into the pits but to continue on was a big no, no.
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pokerman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:40 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:13 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm


Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.
The example was on the "in the end of the day" context... In the end of the day no harm for JV, right? Maybe not the best example, but as I said extreme.

And I respectfully disagree, by attempting to continue to race (and get points in a points capable car) he does alter his race result (0 points as he should have been out of the race straight away).
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.
I think I misread the exchange, as Ferrari did tell him to continue (they told him "you can try"), however I realise that this was before he informed the team about his seat belt situation. So my bad.

However I do think that doing 2 laps without a seat belt warrants a punishment. Not a race ban, but a punishment that serves as a deterrent to other drivers/teams. A very big fine and even points on his license as frankly he should have known better and just take the car in or park it at the first instance.
It's obviously points on his license, I'm not overly concerned about it being more than that, talk of race bans is I think a bit OTT.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:40 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:13 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
Ah come on mikey, competitive advantage has nothing to do with this. To take it to the extreme, do you think that Schumacher 1997 should have gotten no penalty, as JV finished the race?
I don't understand the comparison? In that case Schumacher attempted to gain a sporting advantage so a sporting penalty was justified. This is a bit different. I guess it's a bit like giving a driver a grid penalty when his team releases him from a pitstop without all four wheels attached. I've always argued against that as well.
The example was on the "in the end of the day" context... In the end of the day no harm for JV, right? Maybe not the best example, but as I said extreme.

And I respectfully disagree, by attempting to continue to race (and get points in a points capable car) he does alter his race result (0 points as he should have been out of the race straight away).
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.
The thing is, he wasn't exactly going very slow given he didn't have his seat belt on. When he got going from a standstil, he was around 5 seconds behind latifi. When he pitted, he was 17 seconds behind. Over 2 full laps since the spin and he only lost just over 10 seconds to the car ahead.

Even if he boxed, do you really think this doesn't suggest he was trying to keep his gap small enough to have a chance to recover? I haven't found the statistics for his lap times, but I don't think either of them will have been under 15 seconds slower than the regular ones that he would have done, which when not wearing a seatbelt is just idiotic.

Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

[quote="mikeyg123
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.
[/quote]

NO ! He knew he'd undone the harness when he stopped (as he thought he was evacuating). When the car restarted he couldn't find the "attach" (attachment ?) which secures the 6 harnesses. (This was presumably what the engineers were searching for on the floor of the car in the pits).

He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !

He should be severely punished for being a safety fool, and Ferrari should be punished for noy yelling him to stop immediately once Leclerc told them.

Why are you trying to defend someone who breaks the most basic safety rules ?

.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:02 pm
[quote="mikeyg123
But he didn't attempt to continue did he? When he realised his belts were undone he said over the radio and returned to the pits. Had he ignored it and finished then obviously a DSQ would be required.
NO ! He knew he'd undone the harness when he stopped (as he thought he was evacuating). When the car restarted he couldn't find the "attach" (attachment ?) which secures the 6 harnesses. (This was presumably what the engineers were searching for on the floor of the car in the pits).

He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !

He should be severely punished for being a safety fool, and Ferrari should be punished for noy yelling him to stop immediately once Leclerc told them.

Why are you trying to defend someone who breaks the most basic safety rules ?

.
[/quote]

Largely because he's not endangered anyone else. He isn't playing fast and lose with anyone elses safety he made a mistake that can only possible effect him. It just wasn't at the forefront of his mind until he was back on the pit straight and thought oh yeah my seat belts are undone. It should be fine because it's dumb but a sporting penalty would be daft and unwarranted IMO.

Option or Prime
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

I disagree, he drives off, he has no idea if the car is going to 'freeze' again and cause an accident. If he has an accident and is badly injured due to no safety adherence what of the guilt of the other driver concerned?

Even at 50 mph a sudden stop could crush his ribs on the wheel. Ferrari losing their No 1 driver has massive consequences.
F1 back in the news as an unsafe sport when they are only racing under strict safety guidelines due to the virus. Drivers labelled arrogant for being out of their bubble is one thing but now flagrantly defying basic regulations.

What about the Tiffosi and his girlfiend injured in a smash on their way home, "Well if its OK for Leclerc not to wear a belt why should I?"

Sorry, its youthful arrogance and stupidity. Its a basic standard. What's worse Ferrari let him. Probably a "don't want to upset Charles" fear.

No basic structure or integrity no wonder Ferrari are in a mess.
Last edited by Option or Prime on Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

[quote="mikeyg123
Largely because he's not endangered anyone else. He isn't playing fast and lose with anyone elses safety he made a mistake that can only possible effect him. It just wasn't at the forefront of his mind until he was back on the pit straight and thought oh yeah my seat belts are undone. It should be fine because it's dumb but a sporting penalty would be daft and unwarranted IMO.
[/quote]

.

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.

pokerman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:39 pm
-

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
Indeed if the police catch me driving without a seat belt on then it's an automatic fine even though I'm the only one being put in danger.
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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:40 am
At the end of the day Leclerc gained no competitive advantage so I see any penalty that affects his sporting result misplaced and illogical.
It's not a competitive / sporting issue. It's a safety one. And, as in pretty much all walks of life, safety should take precedence over everything else.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:39 pm
-

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
Indeed if the police catch me driving without a seat belt on then it's an automatic fine even though I'm the only one being put in danger.
And I suspect Leclerc will get fined here.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:39 pm
[quote="mikeyg123
Largely because he's not endangered anyone else. He isn't playing fast and lose with anyone elses safety he made a mistake that can only possible effect him. It just wasn't at the forefront of his mind until he was back on the pit straight and thought oh yeah my seat belts are undone. It should be fine because it's dumb but a sporting penalty would be daft and unwarranted IMO.
.

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
[/quote]

Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.

Siao7
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:39 pm
-

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
Indeed if the police catch me driving without a seat belt on then it's an automatic fine even though I'm the only one being put in danger.
Racing and every day driving are not comparable really.

Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »


Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).


.
Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.


.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.

.

Greenman
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

[quote}
Racing and every day driving are not comparable really.
[/quote]

.

True. Competitive driving has much stricter rules and regulations, especially regarding safety.

.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).


.
Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.


.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.

.
Nothing you said was factual. All opinion. All of it.

I think he undone his harness and was then immediately distracted by something else. He came in then as soon as he realised and returned to the pits in a safe manor.

I'm sure he will get a fine so will get punished. I think you're being a touch hysterical. If you think he's getting race bans for this you're living in lala land.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18096
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:07 pm
[quote}
Racing and every day driving are not comparable really.
.

True. Competitive driving has much stricter rules and regulations, especially regarding safety.

.
[/quote]

As such I imagine Leclerc getting a much larger fine than you or I would be burdened with.

User avatar
tootsie323
Posts: 3240
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm
.

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:32 pm
Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.
.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.
Maybe it's in reference to the use specifically of 'lunatic' and 'attitude was atrocious.' If we're splitting hairs, I don't think that many people will agree that Leclerc is a lunatic and that he has an atrocious attitude.
On the flip side, I don't see how anybody can defend his actions purely from a safety perspective. It could be argued that his actions were atrocious and, at a stretch, bordered on lunacy.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

Siao7
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:19 pm
Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm
.

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:32 pm
Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.
.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.
Maybe it's in reference to the use specifically of 'lunatic' and 'attitude was atrocious.' If we're splitting hairs, I don't think that many people will agree that Leclerc is a lunatic and that he has an atrocious attitude.
On the flip side, I don't see how anybody can defend his actions purely from a safety perspective. It could be argued that his actions were atrocious and, at a stretch, bordered on lunacy.
Yeah, apart from the flair for the dramatic, I don't think that one can really defend his actions. The only thing that I can think of is that maybe he was so focused on getting the engine on that it escaped his mind (that he took the harness off), as I mentioned before, so let's see what he says if he will get called in the principal's office.

I'm happy that he got back in one piece, but he should learn his lesson

mikeyg123
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:02 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:19 pm
Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm
.

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:32 pm
Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.
.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.
Maybe it's in reference to the use specifically of 'lunatic' and 'attitude was atrocious.' If we're splitting hairs, I don't think that many people will agree that Leclerc is a lunatic and that he has an atrocious attitude.
On the flip side, I don't see how anybody can defend his actions purely from a safety perspective. It could be argued that his actions were atrocious and, at a stretch, bordered on lunacy.
Yeah, apart from the flair for the dramatic, I don't think that one can really defend his actions. The only thing that I can think of is that maybe he was so focused on getting the engine on that it escaped his mind (that he took the harness off), as I mentioned before, so let's see what he says if he will get called in the principal's office.

I'm happy that he got back in one piece, but he should learn his lesson
That's exactly what I think happened and I agree he needs a dressing down and a fine. He may well get some points on his licence as well.

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Badgeronimous
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

I don't buy that he never realised they were undone.

By the time he was going by the pit entrance for the first time, he'd know he had no harness on. I'd say it's near impossible not to.

Can only comment from driving tin tops but I'm well used to a 6 point harness and HANS device (and the stuff I'm using is pretty much the same tech as they are) - you're like a tortoise on it's back when you're strapped into a race seat, and that feeling is enhanced further if you're wearing a HANS device. Absolutely no way you wouldn't notice being able to roll your shoulders and actually move.... then as soon as you touched the brake in any sort of way.... well.... if you hadn't noticed by then, you'd then couldn't fail to notice.

I don't have much issue with him trying to get back to the pits with his harness undone, given where the spin happened on the circuit - although he would get a knuckle wrap if caught. I do take an issue with him continuing on at near race pace for a fair bit after knowing the harness undone, and given the severity of the consequence should anything have happened, I'm not just talking physical consequence to Leclerc, but the fallout, enquiries, etc. As soon as Leclerc has noticed and chose to carry on, it beyond ignorance at that point. If a racer did that at club or national level, I would expect his licence to be suspended - harsh or not. In motorsport, not following the safety protocols is frowned on, in my experience, more than willful dangerous driving. I don't agree that is how it should be, but for various reasons it is how it is.

Siao7
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:06 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:02 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:19 pm
Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm
.

Why are you defending the actions of a lunatic ?

Obviously he knew his harness was undone ! And as for " because he's not endangered anyone else" - why doesn't get rid of the harness, helmet, fireproof clothing and roll bar at his next race ? None of them affect other drivers' safety.

His attitude was atrocious and demands severe penalties (and Ferrari lesser).

.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:32 pm
Sorry, I simply don't agree with any of that.
.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.
Maybe it's in reference to the use specifically of 'lunatic' and 'attitude was atrocious.' If we're splitting hairs, I don't think that many people will agree that Leclerc is a lunatic and that he has an atrocious attitude.
On the flip side, I don't see how anybody can defend his actions purely from a safety perspective. It could be argued that his actions were atrocious and, at a stretch, bordered on lunacy.
Yeah, apart from the flair for the dramatic, I don't think that one can really defend his actions. The only thing that I can think of is that maybe he was so focused on getting the engine on that it escaped his mind (that he took the harness off), as I mentioned before, so let's see what he says if he will get called in the principal's office.

I'm happy that he got back in one piece, but he should learn his lesson
That's exactly what I think happened and I agree he needs a dressing down and a fine. He may well get some points on his licence as well.
Ok, we do agree on something!

The one thing that doesn't add up for me is that he is asking the team on the radio if he should try to start the car again or not. So if he is still hoping to continue driving, why taking off the harness? Why do it before confirmation from the team that "the engine is toast, get out of there"? It does not make sense.

I think he acted stupidly and needs points deduction as a minimum and the team fined for not instructing him to stop immediately when he informed them.

Greenman
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:58 pm

Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

[quote="mikeyg123


.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.

.
[/quote]

Nothing you said was factual. All opinion. All of it.

I think he undone his harness and was then immediately distracted by something else. He came in then as soon as he realised and returned to the pits in a safe manor.

I'm sure he will get a fine so will get punished. I think you're being a touch hysterical. If you think he's getting race bans for this you're living in lala land.

[/quote]

Are you trolling ?

Everything I said was factual, He could not (and did not) drive off unaware that the harness was undone, because he was thrown around in the cockpit !

He did NOT return as soon as he realised, he passed the pits before he notified Ferrari

He did NOT return to the pits is a safe manner as he was driving without his harness - very unsafe.

Leclerc (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) severely broke the safety rules, the regulations and the conditions of his super-licence.

Stop trying to re-write the facts

.

Greenman
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:58 pm

Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Greenman »

[quote="Siao7

Yeah, apart from the flair for the dramatic, I don't think that one can really defend his actions. The only thing that I can think of is that maybe he was so focused on getting the engine on that it escaped his mind (that he took the harness off), as I mentioned before, so let's see what he says if he will get called in the principal's office.

I'm happy that he got back in one piece, but he should learn his lesson

[/quote]
.

There is no way he didn't notice that the harness was undone - he commentated on it !

He doesn't need to be taught a lesson, he needs to be punished for his severe safety violations.

.

Siao7
Posts: 8765
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:57 pm
[quote="mikeyg123


.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.

.
Nothing you said was factual. All opinion. All of it.

I think he undone his harness and was then immediately distracted by something else. He came in then as soon as he realised and returned to the pits in a safe manor.

I'm sure he will get a fine so will get punished. I think you're being a touch hysterical. If you think he's getting race bans for this you're living in lala land.

[/quote]

Are you trolling ?

Everything I said was factual, He could not (and did not) drive off unaware that the harness was undone, because he was thrown around in the cockpit !

He did NOT return as soon as he realised, he passed the pits before he notified Ferrari

He did NOT return to the pits is a safe manner as he was driving without his harness - very unsafe.

Leclerc (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) severely broke the safety rules, the regulations and the conditions of his super-licence.

Stop trying to re-write the facts

.
[/quote]

I have to say that I am confused about the super-license conditions comment, it does not mention safety at all, just conditions to be met, like being over 18yo, having a driving license, having at least 40 points, etc.

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Badgeronimous
Posts: 915
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Location: Scotland & Abu Dhabi

Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

The FIA issued event licence will almost certainly have a minimum required safety standard for all vehicle competing in that class.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18096
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:57 pm
[quote="mikeyg123


.

How can you not agree with the facts ?

He knew his harness was undone.

And he knew he was breaking the safety rules.

Why shouldn't Leclerc get punished for doing irresponsibly unsafe things ? He broke the course rules, the racing regulations and the conditions of his special driving licence, as well as showing everyone just how stupid he was.

Separately, Ferrari also showed they were incompetent once they allowed him to continue driving after Leclerc told them he did have his harness done up.

.

.
Nothing you said was factual. All opinion. All of it.

I think he undone his harness and was then immediately distracted by something else. He came in then as soon as he realised and returned to the pits in a safe manor.

I'm sure he will get a fine so will get punished. I think you're being a touch hysterical. If you think he's getting race bans for this you're living in lala land.

[/quote]

Are you trolling ?

Everything I said was factual, He could not (and did not) drive off unaware that the harness was undone, because he was thrown around in the cockpit !

He did NOT return as soon as he realised, he passed the pits before he notified Ferrari

He did NOT return to the pits is a safe manner as he was driving without his harness - very unsafe.

Leclerc (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) severely broke the safety rules, the regulations and the conditions of his super-licence.

Stop trying to re-write the facts

.
[/quote]

I'll give you a hand. You obviously are struggling with the concept of "facts"

Here is your post with opinions underlined for you.




He knew when he moved off that the harness was undone and did not tell Ferrari until he had passed the pit entry and started a new lap !

He should be severely punished for being a safety fool, and Ferrari should be punished for noy yelling him to stop immediately once Leclerc told them.


Lets see what happens but I'd be surprised if he gets anything north of a fine and some penalty points. I'll be stunned if it's more than a grid penalty.

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tootsie323
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:43 pm
Lets see what happens but I'd be surprised if he gets anything north of a fine and some penalty points. I'll be stunned if it's more than a grid penalty.
I wouldn't be. This is a safety issue and I would expect the sanction to be suitably harsh.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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