F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

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Siao7
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

Option or Prime wrote:I'm not sure he will be that bothered about that Siao7, there isn't much vitriol on this site but then most on here recognise talent even if its not in their favourite car.

On some of the general sports boards its more noticeable though. I see quite a lot relating to his tax status. I think its a bit of double discrimination with some, he is not a son of a wealthy parent who one who owns a team or one who used to drive in F1 or lives in Monaco so its a bit of a class issue coupled with a bit of a race issue etc..
Yeah, I guess you are right. I have not checked other sites, so I am not going to pretend to know how much people slag off Hamilton regarding this, but in this site it has been pretty civilised I think.

Siao7
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Siao7 wrote: As far as I am aware the message "silence is complicity" appeared only 3 or so days ago when addressing his fellow drivers. He did call out F1 in general from the beginning, but the message I was talking about was only from last weekend. And no one talked about bullying his fellow drivers, bullying has the meaning of repetitive aggressive behaviour, harassing and intimidating with the purpose of harming, which is not what I said. He forced/shamed them into something that some drivers were uneasy with, but that is different than bullying. So please don't get my message wrong. In any case, I am not sure how the sport stops them from speaking, they all have their own social media and they can talk to the world. I do not think the FIA has ever done anything to prevent drivers from talking to the media; I guess anything that resembles to "defamation of the sport" would warrant some kind of a penalty from the FIA, but I can not remember anything as such.

I'm also not sure why you are talking about the drivers only, the message Hamilton sent out is for diversity across the F1 sport, from drivers to engineers and any kind of employee. And as I mentioned above, I do not think F1 has actively stopped anyone from entering the F1 world. I am pretty sure that people have passed CV's of people because of their colour, but that is not a directive from the F1 world, rather individuals acting stupidly and non-professionally. I would like to see some initiative for funding young people (as they have reportedly talked about it now), but other than that I am not sure what you would like them to do.
Good points. F1 is proving to be at odds with many other sports with a clear divide. Premier League Football has consistently shown unity with all players on both teams joining in with protest. Hamilton has a bit of a dilemma as its clear he is showing leadership in his sport but his main aim has to be winning the WDC and he has to avoid this becoming a distraction.

I find the reasons for not joining in a little weak. Particularly when drivers like Verstappen say thing to the effect, "I'll make my protest in my own time and in my own way." Its been two Grand Prix now Max and nothing.
I wonder if we will ever see anything?

I don't take the bullying suggestion in any way, its just making people uncomfortable, let's face it we should be, it shouldn't become an obsession though and it has to remain proportionate.
Verstappen is in a tricky position. I don't doubt for a minute that he opposes racism, but there is still quite a divide in Holland, and there are a number of his fanbase that are clearly very anti BLM judging by the outpouring of supportive tweets about his decision not to kneel, including a hashtag translating to "don't kneel for idiots" trending. Max is driving a Dutch resurgence in F1 support, so he clearly doesn't want to alienate a section of his fanbase.

It's a similar situation Alonso found himself in back in 08 when those Spanish fans blacked up to degrade Hamilton's family. He condemned it, but not exactly in the most authoritative manner. Like Max now, Alonso then was almost single handedly responsible for an F1 boom in his country. He clearly didn't want to alienate a section of his fanbase with more erm...old fashioned ideals.
Wow, that is quite poor taste I have to admit.

Option or Prime
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Option or Prime »

When I started this thread before it split I was critical of the apathy shown by posters in not at least commenting on the 'anti racism' protest. I didn't realise that traffic on tis site in the 'down season' was so low and subsequent contributions have been significant and informative. I apologise to everyone for that.

What has surprised me though is the split in opinion amongst the drivers, Verstappen's position is clearer, personally I think sitting on the fence is indecisive, confused and perhaps immature, he is still only a young man after all.
It would be useful to know why Kimi Räikkönen, Charles Leclerc, Carlos Sainz, Danil Kvyat and Antonio Giovinazzi declined to 'take the knee' I'm not being critical, just trying to understand.

Final comment, I am getting the impression that 'taking the knee' as a gesture has moved away from the the BLM movement and moving towards an 'anti racism' movement. That is if that isn't a contradiction in terms.

Siao7
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

Option or Prime wrote:When I started this thread before it split I was critical of the apathy shown by posters in not at least commenting on the 'anti racism' protest. I didn't realise that traffic on tis site in the 'down season' was so low and subsequent contributions have been significant and informative. I apologise to everyone for that.

What has surprised me though is the split in opinion amongst the drivers, Verstappen's position is clearer, personally I think sitting on the fence is indecisive, confused and perhaps immature, he is still only a young man after all.
It would be useful to know why Kimi Räikkönen, Charles Leclerc, Carlos Sainz, Danil Kvyat and Antonio Giovinazzi declined to 'take the knee' I'm not being critical, just trying to understand.

Final comment, I am getting the impression that 'taking the knee' as a gesture has moved away from the the BLM movement and moving towards an 'anti racism' movement. That is if that isn't a contradiction in terms.
No need to apologise OoP, no harm done. I think a lot of users are gone anyway, compared to the past.

I think I read (about Leclerc) that the FIA told them to express themselves as they wish, so he wore the t-shirt with the message he wanted to pass. He was also quoted saying "I believe that what matters are facts and behaviours in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries. I will not take the knee but this does not mean at all that I am less committed than others in the fight against racism". I agree with this to a point, it is the behaviour not one gesture that really means something, leading by example and not in words. So I do not think that not taking the knee was meant in a bad way, just that they wanted to express themselves in another way, not the "designated" way as someone put it here before.


Ricciardo also defended them, and he did take the knee.

JN23
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:When I started this thread before it split I was critical of the apathy shown by posters in not at least commenting on the 'anti racism' protest. I didn't realise that traffic on tis site in the 'down season' was so low and subsequent contributions have been significant and informative. I apologise to everyone for that.

What has surprised me though is the split in opinion amongst the drivers, Verstappen's position is clearer, personally I think sitting on the fence is indecisive, confused and perhaps immature, he is still only a young man after all.
It would be useful to know why Kimi Räikkönen, Charles Leclerc, Carlos Sainz, Danil Kvyat and Antonio Giovinazzi declined to 'take the knee' I'm not being critical, just trying to understand.

Final comment, I am getting the impression that 'taking the knee' as a gesture has moved away from the the BLM movement and moving towards an 'anti racism' movement. That is if that isn't a contradiction in terms.
No need to apologise OoP, no harm done. I think a lot of users are gone anyway, compared to the past.

I think I read (about Leclerc) that the FIA told them to express themselves as they wish, so he wore the t-shirt with the message he wanted to pass. He was also quoted saying "I believe that what matters are facts and behaviours in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries. I will not take the knee but this does not mean at all that I am less committed than others in the fight against racism". I agree with this to a point, it is the behaviour not one gesture that really means something, leading by example and not in words. So I do not think that not taking the knee was meant in a bad way, just that they wanted to express themselves in another way, not the "designated" way as someone put it here before.


Ricciardo also defended them, and he did take the knee.
Leclerc's reasoning is weak for me. 'Rather than formal gestures'. Why did he wear the F1 end racism tshirt then?

Siao7
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:When I started this thread before it split I was critical of the apathy shown by posters in not at least commenting on the 'anti racism' protest. I didn't realise that traffic on tis site in the 'down season' was so low and subsequent contributions have been significant and informative. I apologise to everyone for that.

What has surprised me though is the split in opinion amongst the drivers, Verstappen's position is clearer, personally I think sitting on the fence is indecisive, confused and perhaps immature, he is still only a young man after all.
It would be useful to know why Kimi Räikkönen, Charles Leclerc, Carlos Sainz, Danil Kvyat and Antonio Giovinazzi declined to 'take the knee' I'm not being critical, just trying to understand.

Final comment, I am getting the impression that 'taking the knee' as a gesture has moved away from the the BLM movement and moving towards an 'anti racism' movement. That is if that isn't a contradiction in terms.
No need to apologise OoP, no harm done. I think a lot of users are gone anyway, compared to the past.

I think I read (about Leclerc) that the FIA told them to express themselves as they wish, so he wore the t-shirt with the message he wanted to pass. He was also quoted saying "I believe that what matters are facts and behaviours in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries. I will not take the knee but this does not mean at all that I am less committed than others in the fight against racism". I agree with this to a point, it is the behaviour not one gesture that really means something, leading by example and not in words. So I do not think that not taking the knee was meant in a bad way, just that they wanted to express themselves in another way, not the "designated" way as someone put it here before.


Ricciardo also defended them, and he did take the knee.
Leclerc's reasoning is weak for me. 'Rather than formal gestures'. Why did he wear the F1 end racism tshirt then?
He explained that the message on the t-shirt is the main message that they are trying to pass, not taking the knee. What's so weird about that?

JN23
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:When I started this thread before it split I was critical of the apathy shown by posters in not at least commenting on the 'anti racism' protest. I didn't realise that traffic on tis site in the 'down season' was so low and subsequent contributions have been significant and informative. I apologise to everyone for that.

What has surprised me though is the split in opinion amongst the drivers, Verstappen's position is clearer, personally I think sitting on the fence is indecisive, confused and perhaps immature, he is still only a young man after all.
It would be useful to know why Kimi Räikkönen, Charles Leclerc, Carlos Sainz, Danil Kvyat and Antonio Giovinazzi declined to 'take the knee' I'm not being critical, just trying to understand.

Final comment, I am getting the impression that 'taking the knee' as a gesture has moved away from the the BLM movement and moving towards an 'anti racism' movement. That is if that isn't a contradiction in terms.
No need to apologise OoP, no harm done. I think a lot of users are gone anyway, compared to the past.

I think I read (about Leclerc) that the FIA told them to express themselves as they wish, so he wore the t-shirt with the message he wanted to pass. He was also quoted saying "I believe that what matters are facts and behaviours in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries. I will not take the knee but this does not mean at all that I am less committed than others in the fight against racism". I agree with this to a point, it is the behaviour not one gesture that really means something, leading by example and not in words. So I do not think that not taking the knee was meant in a bad way, just that they wanted to express themselves in another way, not the "designated" way as someone put it here before.


Ricciardo also defended them, and he did take the knee.
Leclerc's reasoning is weak for me. 'Rather than formal gestures'. Why did he wear the F1 end racism tshirt then?
He explained that the message on the t-shirt is the main message that they are trying to pass, not taking the knee. What's so weird about that?
The formal gesture part of his tweet. Wearing an F1 tshirt (it was in the F1 font and was in huge font* at the entrance to the pitlane) is a formal gesture. It looked to me as if he was picking what formal gestures he was happy with wasn't happy with.

*Speaking of the font, when I first saw it I had to do a double take as I read it as '2nd racism'

Siao7
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:When I started this thread before it split I was critical of the apathy shown by posters in not at least commenting on the 'anti racism' protest. I didn't realise that traffic on tis site in the 'down season' was so low and subsequent contributions have been significant and informative. I apologise to everyone for that.

What has surprised me though is the split in opinion amongst the drivers, Verstappen's position is clearer, personally I think sitting on the fence is indecisive, confused and perhaps immature, he is still only a young man after all.
It would be useful to know why Kimi Räikkönen, Charles Leclerc, Carlos Sainz, Danil Kvyat and Antonio Giovinazzi declined to 'take the knee' I'm not being critical, just trying to understand.

Final comment, I am getting the impression that 'taking the knee' as a gesture has moved away from the the BLM movement and moving towards an 'anti racism' movement. That is if that isn't a contradiction in terms.
No need to apologise OoP, no harm done. I think a lot of users are gone anyway, compared to the past.

I think I read (about Leclerc) that the FIA told them to express themselves as they wish, so he wore the t-shirt with the message he wanted to pass. He was also quoted saying "I believe that what matters are facts and behaviours in our daily life rather than formal gestures that could be seen as controversial in some countries. I will not take the knee but this does not mean at all that I am less committed than others in the fight against racism". I agree with this to a point, it is the behaviour not one gesture that really means something, leading by example and not in words. So I do not think that not taking the knee was meant in a bad way, just that they wanted to express themselves in another way, not the "designated" way as someone put it here before.


Ricciardo also defended them, and he did take the knee.
Leclerc's reasoning is weak for me. 'Rather than formal gestures'. Why did he wear the F1 end racism tshirt then?
He explained that the message on the t-shirt is the main message that they are trying to pass, not taking the knee. What's so weird about that?
The formal gesture part of his tweet. Wearing an F1 tshirt (it was in the F1 font and was in huge font* at the entrance to the pitlane) is a formal gesture. It looked to me as if he was picking what formal gestures he was happy with wasn't happy with.

*Speaking of the font, when I first saw it I had to do a double take as I read it as '2nd racism'
Ok, I am not sure if wearing a t-shirt counts as a gesture (a physical movement) or not, but I'm not going to get into semantics. He expressed himself as he saw fit and that's good enough for me. I prefer people do that, rather than say gestures that we've seen in the past few months (people washing other people's feet, statues thrown into rivers, re-naming places, guilt shaming, etc.). I have mentioned before that in my opinion they could have done it, as it is nothing much for someone to just take a knee if it is for a good cause, but I am not going to blast them for not doing it.

wire2004
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Re: 2020 British Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by wire2004 »

Why are we still doing this black lives matter and end racism stuff.

I've made my point over the last few weeks. Mainly that it is now a political statement rather than a racial issue.
But I want to add something during channel 4 coverage. Lewis was talking too Lee Mackenzie. And they mention. When lewis retires. There isnt any other black drivers to take over the mental.
Again. When I say it its political and not a racial issue. There is the point. Lewis and lee stating there is no black drivers to take over the mantle.
Yes.
I agree there is no black drivers ready to take over the mantle.
Why.
it's not racial.
They are simply not good enough to make it into formula 1.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: 2020 British Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:59 pm
Why are we still doing this black lives matter and end racism stuff.

I've made my point over the last few weeks. Mainly that it is now a political statement rather than a racial issue.
But I want to add something during channel 4 coverage. Lewis was talking too Lee Mackenzie. And they mention. When lewis retires. There isnt any other black drivers to take over the mental.
Again. When I say it its political and not a racial issue. There is the point. Lewis and lee stating there is no black drivers to take over the mantle.
Yes.
I agree there is no black drivers ready to take over the mantle.
Why.
it's not racial.
They are simply not good enough to make it into formula 1.
The very first black driver to compete in the sport is about to break or equal all of Michael Schumacher's records - records that when he retired people believed were impossible to get close to.

That alone demonstrates the reality of the glass ceiling.

As for the continuation of the end racism demonstration. It is also telling how many people are prepared to invest more energy into complaining about a campaign against racism than they are to invest energy into complaining about racism itself.

wire2004
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by wire2004 »

Inappropriate post removed.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm
Inappropriate post removed.
You could just go to the fridge and get a beer during the two minutes that they show the End Racism campaign if it is annoying you so much.

It's incredible, really. The extent of inconvenience you are being caused by all of this is having a few minutes of TV - which finished long before the race has started - covering a topic you don't want to hear being discussed. That's it. That is the only impact it has on your life.

Yet the impact on the lives of the people who are being campaigned for is literal violence against them, to the extreme of being killed.

You are not being asked to do anything, not even listen. You can change the channel for two minutes if it bothers you so much and it need never enter your life. Yet you have literally spent more time on here complaining about it than the time given to it during the coverage.

As for sport not being political - I guess the 1936 Olympic Games missed that memo. But more to the point, in what was is "ending racism" political? That is the campaign being run by Liberty and Formula 1. Is the non-left position on the matter "Continue Racism?"

The glass ceiling does not exist between Formula 2 and Formula 1. It's much lower than that, in order to even get into serious karting, a driver needs substantial financial backing, talent is not the gate keeper until much farther down the line. The reason Hamilton was able to get into Formula 1 is because he got the financial backing, and part of that was down to his exceptional talent. Had he been of - say - Anthony Davidson skill level, I doubt he would have even progressed much beyond karting.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Asphalt_World »

wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Edit. Just for anyone who is in any doubt about this black lives kneeling protest.
Kinda ironic that they are kneeling. When that was the very action that killed George floyd. The very reason this political agenda started.
The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
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sixwheeler
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by sixwheeler »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am
wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Edit. Just for anyone who is in any doubt about this black lives kneeling protest.
Kinda ironic that they are kneeling. When that was the very action that killed George floyd. The very reason this political agenda started.
The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.

Siao7
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Re: 2020 British Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:39 pm
wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:59 pm
Why are we still doing this black lives matter and end racism stuff.

I've made my point over the last few weeks. Mainly that it is now a political statement rather than a racial issue.
But I want to add something during channel 4 coverage. Lewis was talking too Lee Mackenzie. And they mention. When lewis retires. There isnt any other black drivers to take over the mental.
Again. When I say it its political and not a racial issue. There is the point. Lewis and lee stating there is no black drivers to take over the mantle.
Yes.
I agree there is no black drivers ready to take over the mantle.
Why.
it's not racial.
They are simply not good enough to make it into formula 1.
The very first black driver to compete in the sport is about to break or equal all of Michael Schumacher's records - records that when he retired people believed were impossible to get close to.

That alone demonstrates the reality of the glass ceiling.

As for the continuation of the end racism demonstration. It is also telling how many people are prepared to invest more energy into complaining about a campaign against racism than they are to invest energy into complaining about racism itself.
I disagree with this Alien, if there is a glass ceiling, that is to anyone who doesn't have money in F1, it is paramount to progress in this sport. It is not a glass ceiling to minorities specifically, it doesn't have to do with colour. I remember the old saying that the best driver in F1 is probably some lumberjack in Siberia who doesn't have the money to compete (not the exact words, but you get it)! Anyone who can get the funds and is good enough will attract sponsors and attention. The only thing that possibly prevents this is how marketable some drivers are.

Siao7
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am
wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Edit. Just for anyone who is in any doubt about this black lives kneeling protest.
Kinda ironic that they are kneeling. When that was the very action that killed George floyd. The very reason this political agenda started.
The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

People who think #blacklivesmatter is political have been watching too much Fox news lately
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am
wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Edit. Just for anyone who is in any doubt about this black lives kneeling protest.
Kinda ironic that they are kneeling. When that was the very action that killed George floyd. The very reason this political agenda started.
The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Asphalt_World »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:35 pm
People who think #blacklivesmatter is political have been watching too much Fox news lately
Exactly.

Or read the Daily Mail and other similar rags.
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Option or Prime »

Jean Todt has been praising Lewis Hamilton for his stance on racism. Chase Carey has donated £1,000,000 of his own money to fight racism.

Kevin Magnuson chose to stand at the weekend. Its an odd internal protest in my view. I really like the image below from the article.


Image
Source: BBC

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Jezza13 »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am
wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Edit. Just for anyone who is in any doubt about this black lives kneeling protest.
Kinda ironic that they are kneeling. When that was the very action that killed George floyd. The very reason this political agenda started.
The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Britain - 20) - 142 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 372 trophies available, 27 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

JN23
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:45 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am


The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am
wire2004 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Edit. Just for anyone who is in any doubt about this black lives kneeling protest.
Kinda ironic that they are kneeling. When that was the very action that killed George floyd. The very reason this political agenda started.
The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Diversity is obviously good and while they can be related, it is not exactly racism. And the issue I always find with diversity is that it doesn't necessarily mean that (using the above as an example) the team is 97% white male because they are racists/sexists. It could very well be that there was less interest; for example in my engineering degree we were 80 or so men and 2-3 women. My guess is that women were just not interested in that degree, it wasn't the university being less diverse and stopping women getting in.

For me it should be the best person for the job. I don't care who or what they are, I do not want to decide on demographics really. If there are 99 male and 1 female for this job, then so be it. The other way around too.

JN23
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:39 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:21 am


The fact you think the attempt to get racial equality started with the murder of George Floyd, shows how little you know. If that's what brought it to your attention, then fine, but my god it's been going rather longer than that!
Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Diversity is obviously good and while they can be related, it is not exactly racism. And the issue I always find with diversity is that it doesn't necessarily mean that (using the above as an example) the team is 97% white male because they are racists/sexists. It could very well be that there was less interest; for example in my engineering degree we were 80 or so men and 2-3 women. My guess is that women were just not interested in that degree, it wasn't the university being less diverse and stopping women getting in.

For me it should be the best person for the job. I don't care who or what they are, I do not want to decide on demographics really. If there are 99 male and 1 female for this job, then so be it. The other way around too.
Hamilton’s comments on Ferrari were about diversity and not racism if I remember correctly.

The bit in bold misses the point - it’s about providing equal opportunity for those who don’t have it at the moment. No one is suggesting that we give someone a job based on their demographics.

User avatar
Jezza13
Posts: 2286
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Far side of Koozebane

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Jezza13 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:45 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am


Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Last edited by Jezza13 on Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Britain - 20) - 142 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 372 trophies available, 27 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

BMWSauber84
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Formula One and Motorsport in general being a fair way behind in driver representation is almost inevitable. It started out as a rich man's game which at the time almost exclusively meant economically developed white countries.

It isn't a sport that young black or Asian people can play in the park with your mates with minimal equipment like football. It has struggled to make an impact in predominantly non white countries in the way football and cricket have, and so there has historically also not been a huge BAME fanbase.

Getting more people involved in the sport is important simply because more people means more potential great talent

JN23
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:45 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm


Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.

User avatar
Jezza13
Posts: 2286
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Location: Far side of Koozebane

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Jezza13 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:45 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm


He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.
Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Britain - 20) - 142 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 372 trophies available, 27 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:15 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:39 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm
sixwheeler wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:20 am


Quite so. But it's what seems to have got Hamilton on to his soapbox.

It's a malaise that been going on a long time, and needs to be urgently remedied. But I don't know what the the end result of F1 being involved is supposed to be. F1 doesn't even plan to visit the US in 2020 AFAIK. We're being hijacked, and recalling that one of the four police officers present at the killing of George Floyd was black, and another also non white (what were they doing?), leaves me feeling that it's all showboating.
Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Diversity is obviously good and while they can be related, it is not exactly racism. And the issue I always find with diversity is that it doesn't necessarily mean that (using the above as an example) the team is 97% white male because they are racists/sexists. It could very well be that there was less interest; for example in my engineering degree we were 80 or so men and 2-3 women. My guess is that women were just not interested in that degree, it wasn't the university being less diverse and stopping women getting in.

For me it should be the best person for the job. I don't care who or what they are, I do not want to decide on demographics really. If there are 99 male and 1 female for this job, then so be it. The other way around too.
Hamilton’s comments on Ferrari were about diversity and not racism if I remember correctly.

The bit in bold misses the point - it’s about providing equal opportunity for those who don’t have it at the moment. No one is suggesting that we give someone a job based on their demographics.
It was the other way round, Lewis's comments were regarding the fight against racism and that Ferrari should do more.

As for the bold part, why is it missing the point? You talked about diversity, when Hamilton was talking about racism. So, regarding diversity, what I was saying was that from my experience, in my engineering degree it was mostly men that gravitated towards this profession, similar to IT and electrical engineering. If there is no interest from female engineers, how can you say that it is appalling that they are 97% white and 88% male?

Do we know that people do not have equal opportunities at the moment when employed by the teams? Do we know for example that 3 women and 3 men applied for the same job in Ferrari and the women were overlooked? I can't of course say that it hasn't happened, but how can we start accusing them for something that we do not have evidence that they have done?

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:00 am
Formula One and Motorsport in general being a fair way behind in driver representation is almost inevitable. It started out as a rich man's game which at the time almost exclusively meant economically developed white countries.

It isn't a sport that young black or Asian people can play in the park with your mates with minimal equipment like football. It has struggled to make an impact in predominantly non white countries in the way football and cricket have, and so there has historically also not been a huge BAME fanbase.

Getting more people involved in the sport is important simply because more people means more potential great talent
There are no rich Chinese people? Or black, muslim, whoever else??

Do you think it is a sport like white people play with their mates in the park with minimal equipment? Very bizarre, I do not get this reasoning.

Also, Brazil is a country like the one you described, and I don't have to remind you how big football is there, nor how poor people are in the favelas. But F1 found it's way there and they have had multiple champions and a huge F1 following.

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:16 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:45 am


Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.
Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.
A quick search shows that according to the UK WES (Women Engineers Society), 12.5% of all engineers are women in the UK [https://www.wes.org.uk/content/wesstati ... =engineers)&text=46.4%25%20of%20girls%2011%2D14,compared%20to%2070.3%25%20of%20boys&text=42.0%25%20of%20girls%2014%2D16,compared%20to%2066.0%25%20of%20boys&text=25.4%25%20of%20girls%2016%2D18,compared%20to%2051.9%25%20of%20boys], fitting nicely in the above number of engineers in Merc's workforce. The link does not want to behave, you'll have to copy the whole thing

JN23
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:01 pm
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:16 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am


If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.
Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.
A quick search shows that according to the UK WES (Women Engineers Society), 12.5% of all engineers are women in the UK [https://www.wes.org.uk/content/wesstati ... =engineers)&text=46.4%25%20of%20girls%2011%2D14,compared%20to%2070.3%25%20of%20boys&text=42.0%25%20of%20girls%2014%2D16,compared%20to%2066.0%25%20of%20boys&text=25.4%25%20of%20girls%2016%2D18,compared%20to%2051.9%25%20of%20boys], fitting nicely in the above number of engineers in Merc's workforce. The link does not want to behave, you'll have to copy the whole thing
Mercs figures still aren’t close to being reflective of wider society, regardless of whether they’re in line with engineering as an industry. Engineering isn’t the only field that Merc/other F1 teams will recruit from.

Isn’t it a worrying statistic for the engineering industry as a whole that only 12.5% are women? We can’t put it down to a backwards view that women aren’t as interested.

JN23
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:45 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:15 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:39 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 pm


Exactly, it is not a new thing, it just prompted the biggest reaction we have seen in years, worldwide too.

I agree with the rest of your post too, I am not clear what this campaign is trying to achieve. Meaning that we have been hearing a lot of criticism about people and teams not doing enough, but not much of what actually needs to be done. This is the problem that I think Lewis is getting into, he has the drive to do something, but so far, apart from the televised "knee" protest, all we have heard is that "Ferrari is not doing much, the FIA is not doing much". But what does he actually want them to do?
He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Diversity is obviously good and while they can be related, it is not exactly racism. And the issue I always find with diversity is that it doesn't necessarily mean that (using the above as an example) the team is 97% white male because they are racists/sexists. It could very well be that there was less interest; for example in my engineering degree we were 80 or so men and 2-3 women. My guess is that women were just not interested in that degree, it wasn't the university being less diverse and stopping women getting in.

For me it should be the best person for the job. I don't care who or what they are, I do not want to decide on demographics really. If there are 99 male and 1 female for this job, then so be it. The other way around too.
Hamilton’s comments on Ferrari were about diversity and not racism if I remember correctly.

The bit in bold misses the point - it’s about providing equal opportunity for those who don’t have it at the moment. No one is suggesting that we give someone a job based on their demographics.
It was the other way round, Lewis's comments were regarding the fight against racism and that Ferrari should do more.

As for the bold part, why is it missing the point? You talked about diversity, when Hamilton was talking about racism. So, regarding diversity, what I was saying was that from my experience, in my engineering degree it was mostly men that gravitated towards this profession, similar to IT and electrical engineering. If there is no interest from female engineers, how can you say that it is appalling that they are 97% white and 88% male?

Do we know that people do not have equal opportunities at the moment when employed by the teams? Do we know for example that 3 women and 3 men applied for the same job in Ferrari and the women were overlooked? I can't of course say that it hasn't happened, but how can we start accusing them for something that we do not have evidence that they have done?
Hamilton was talking about diversity and racism: https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/12/ham ... diversity/

The bit in bold was missing the point because you were talking about the best candidate getting the job. If there are barriers to getting the opportunity for a job for people who aren't white or aren't male, then it isn't certain that the best person is getting the job.

JN23
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:16 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:45 am


Why is it appalling?

Aren't we all suppose to be equal? You know, the same? Why should a persons skin colour, gender, ethnicity or anything else play any part in choosing the best person for the job. Why should any of that matter? Just because one gender or race or whatever plays a dominant role in a particular area doesn't automatically scream racism or inequality. What ever happened to the mantra "There's just one race, the human race"? That seems to have been well & truly discarded.

Also, at what point in the crusade for diversity & equality will we all be able to sit back & say the war has been won? If the numbers above are correct, & we know they're appalling, then what are the targets we'll need to hit so we can all say "job done"?

How many women in what roles will fulfill our goal? How many black people? Asians? Muslims? Openly gay? Trans?

We seem to know that the numbers as they stand are wrong, but no-one seems to be able to say what numbers will be right? To achieve a goal then you must have a target no? So what's the targets F1 has set in this battle?
If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.
Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.
Bit in bold – that also applies to white people though just with bigger numbers, so the demographics should still tend towards those of society.

It’s ridiculous to say make a massive generalisation that most women have little or no interest in motor racing. Is there evidence for that? F1 as a sport and other industries aren’t going to make any progress on their lack of diversity if they put it down to women/other group not being interested.

Take economics/finance/law as a profession – a few decades ago it was assumed women weren’t interested in that but over time more and more women are now studying/working in that field. If barriers are reduced to women, there’s a good chance we’d see them better represented in other industries.

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:46 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:01 pm
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:16 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am


Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.
Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.
A quick search shows that according to the UK WES (Women Engineers Society), 12.5% of all engineers are women in the UK [https://www.wes.org.uk/content/wesstati ... =engineers)&text=46.4%25%20of%20girls%2011%2D14,compared%20to%2070.3%25%20of%20boys&text=42.0%25%20of%20girls%2014%2D16,compared%20to%2066.0%25%20of%20boys&text=25.4%25%20of%20girls%2016%2D18,compared%20to%2051.9%25%20of%20boys], fitting nicely in the above number of engineers in Merc's workforce. The link does not want to behave, you'll have to copy the whole thing
Mercs figures still aren’t close to being reflective of wider society, regardless of whether they’re in line with engineering as an industry. Engineering isn’t the only field that Merc/other F1 teams will recruit from.

Isn’t it a worrying statistic for the engineering industry as a whole that only 12.5% are women? We can’t put it down to a backwards view that women aren’t as interested.
I am not sure why that is a bad thing. If they are genuinely not interested, then what is the problem? Nursing is something like 90% female to male ratio. I have never ever heard anyone of my male friends saying "I want to be a nurse when I grow up". Similarly, none of my female friends expressed the interest to become an engineer that I remember.

So why is it worrying that some industries are dominated by a gender? Do you want to force more men to become nurses or stop recruiting female nurses to make it even? I am lost as to why there SHOULD be equality where there is no issue frankly. To me it shows that males are not interested in becoming nurses, to you it shows inequality and a backwards view. If so, then so be it, I frankly do not see an issue there and we can agree to disagree.

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:48 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:45 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:15 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:39 am
JN23 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 pm


He presumably wants them to do what Mercedes are doing and have some sort of programme to address the massive diversity problem F1 has. 97% white and 88% male I think Merc said were their stats, and that’s probably fairly standard, which to be honest is pretty appalling.
Diversity is obviously good and while they can be related, it is not exactly racism. And the issue I always find with diversity is that it doesn't necessarily mean that (using the above as an example) the team is 97% white male because they are racists/sexists. It could very well be that there was less interest; for example in my engineering degree we were 80 or so men and 2-3 women. My guess is that women were just not interested in that degree, it wasn't the university being less diverse and stopping women getting in.

For me it should be the best person for the job. I don't care who or what they are, I do not want to decide on demographics really. If there are 99 male and 1 female for this job, then so be it. The other way around too.
Hamilton’s comments on Ferrari were about diversity and not racism if I remember correctly.

The bit in bold misses the point - it’s about providing equal opportunity for those who don’t have it at the moment. No one is suggesting that we give someone a job based on their demographics.
It was the other way round, Lewis's comments were regarding the fight against racism and that Ferrari should do more.

As for the bold part, why is it missing the point? You talked about diversity, when Hamilton was talking about racism. So, regarding diversity, what I was saying was that from my experience, in my engineering degree it was mostly men that gravitated towards this profession, similar to IT and electrical engineering. If there is no interest from female engineers, how can you say that it is appalling that they are 97% white and 88% male?

Do we know that people do not have equal opportunities at the moment when employed by the teams? Do we know for example that 3 women and 3 men applied for the same job in Ferrari and the women were overlooked? I can't of course say that it hasn't happened, but how can we start accusing them for something that we do not have evidence that they have done?
Hamilton was talking about diversity and racism: https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/12/ham ... diversity/

The bit in bold was missing the point because you were talking about the best candidate getting the job. If there are barriers to getting the opportunity for a job for people who aren't white or aren't male, then it isn't certain that the best person is getting the job.
Hamilton's words:

“We’ve seen Red Bull’s mechanics take a knee, which I think is great, but as businesses and as teams... if you look at Ferrari who have thousands of people working with them, I’ve heard no word of Ferrari saying that they hold themselves accountable, and this is what they’re going to do for their future,” the sport’s only Black driver told reporters.

He was talking about not taking the knee. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor ... KKCN24E0WP

In fairness he could have been a bit more clear.

As for the other bit, the F1 teams are not really responsible for who get's the opportunity to progress in life, they are responsible for who they hire; and they should hire only the best candidate that they see fit for a job. It is really as simple as that, their role is not to solve the systemic racism

Siao7
Posts: 8372
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:52 pm
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:16 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:54 am
JN23 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:13 am


If we lived in a world where opportunity was equal regardless of ethnicity, gender etc then the demographics of Mercedes workforce wouldn’t be so heavily skewed towards white men.

If you give everyone equal access to education and programmes to get into F1 you’d see Mercedes a lot better reflecting the wider demographics of society. Education stats shows boys/girls achieve fairly similarly (girls slightly better) but we don’t see that in some workforces or in many company boardrooms.

When Mercedes recruit people, do you happen to think that there’s a range of candidates from different backgrounds but the white male is always best for the job? No, it’s just that almost all the candidates will be white men.
Again that doesn't cry racism or in-equality though.

Lets look at it this way. I assume, & I do mean assume, most of the roles in F1 would be filled by UK citizens as that's where most teams are based &, i'd also assume, most F1 jobs would require a further education of some type.

So working off those assumptions, lets firstly look at the demographics of the UK based on race.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2015-06-18

According to the figures of the latest UK census I could find (2011), it states " Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British".

So straight away we've got an issue there. Aside from almost everything else, just through sheer weight of numbers, white people will overwhelmingly dominate the jobs in F1. It's got absolutely nothing to do with race, in-equality or anything else like that, it's just the talent pool will naturally consist of more white people than those from other race simply because a vast majority of the population is white.

Ok so maybe it's access to higher education then.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser ... ion/latest

According to the above, the race who has had the lowest entry rate of school aged children aged 18 into higher education in the UK, year on year since 2006 has been....... whites.

In 2018, only 29.5% of white students aged 18 went on to higher education compared to 41.2% of blacks, 46.7% of Asians & 66.3% of Chinese. This has pretty much been the norm for the last decade or so, so it doesn't seem access to higher education is a hurdle for non-whites to get into F1.

Looking at the above numbers it seems to me the reason the sport is mostly dominated by white people is simply because there seems to be a much, much bigger talent pool to chose from due to simple demographics. Not in-equality, not racism,not lack of opportunity, not access to education, nothing like that. Just pure & simple demographics
Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.
Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.
Bit in bold – that also applies to white people though just with bigger numbers, so the demographics should still tend towards those of society.

It’s ridiculous to say make a massive generalisation that most women have little or no interest in motor racing. Is there evidence for that? F1 as a sport and other industries aren’t going to make any progress on their lack of diversity if they put it down to women/other group not being interested.

Take economics/finance/law as a profession – a few decades ago it was assumed women weren’t interested in that but over time more and more women are now studying/working in that field. If barriers are reduced to women, there’s a good chance we’d see them better represented in other industries.
I completely disagree with this, in fact, it should be the other way round. Can you present evidence that there are all these women out there that they are prevented to enter motor racing?

This is a good article about the subject, from a couple of years ago:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/01/31/num ... aching-f1/

BMWSauber84
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:52 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:00 am
Formula One and Motorsport in general being a fair way behind in driver representation is almost inevitable. It started out as a rich man's game which at the time almost exclusively meant economically developed white countries.

It isn't a sport that young black or Asian people can play in the park with your mates with minimal equipment like football. It has struggled to make an impact in predominantly non white countries in the way football and cricket have, and so there has historically also not been a huge BAME fanbase.

Getting more people involved in the sport is important simply because more people means more potential great talent
There are no rich Chinese people? Or black, muslim, whoever else??

Do you think it is a sport like white people play with their mates in the park with minimal equipment? Very bizarre, I do not get this reasoning.

Also, Brazil is a country like the one you described, and I don't have to remind you how big football is there, nor how poor people are in the favelas. But F1 found it's way there and they have had multiple champions and a huge F1 following.
I'm not making excuses for it, I'm just explaining the size of the task here. I don't think it's at all controversial to say that F1 has historically been a rich white man's game. It doesn't have the kind of history of BAME participation as other sports.

I'm enormously frustrated that F1 cannot produce a united response to racism with regards to taking a knee. I'm hearing vague and dismal excuses from drivers about it meaning something different in their country etc etc, all while Premier League footballers from the same nations perform the gesture week in week out before games.

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