Rank the number twos

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Rank the supporting drivers

Poll ended at Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:20 am

Rank the number twos
32
6%
Coulthard
20
4%
Coulthard_1
18
4%
Coulthard_2
12
2%
Coulthard_3
1
0%
Coulthard_4
0
No votes
Irvine
13
3%
Irvine_1
13
3%
Irvine_2
15
3%
Irvine_3
14
3%
Irvine_4
0
No votes
Barrichello
21
4%
Barrichello_1
11
2%
Barrichello_2
11
2%
Barrichello_3
0
No votes
Barrichello_4
0
No votes
Trulli
14
3%
Trulli_1
11
2%
Trulli_2
17
3%
Trulli_3
12
2%
Trulli_4
0
No votes
Fisichella
21
4%
Fisichella_1
20
4%
Fisichella_2
20
4%
Fisichella_3
7
1%
Fisichella_4
0
No votes
Massa
15
3%
Massa_1
18
4%
Massa_2
16
3%
Massa_3
2
0%
Massa_4
0
No votes
Kovalainen
25
5%
Kovalainen_1
6
1%
Kovalainen_2
5
1%
Kovalainen_3
26
5%
Kovalainen_4
0
No votes
Webber
16
3%
Webber_1
16
3%
Webber_2
17
3%
Webber_3
1
0%
Webber_4
0
No votes
Bottas
15
3%
Bottas_1
15
3%
Bottas_2
15
3%
Bottas_3
1
0%
Bottas_4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 512

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Mod Aqua
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Rank the number twos

Post by Mod Aqua »

I thought it would be interesting to get an idea of how the forum ranks the "number two" drivers over the last 20 years.

These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential.

The drivers I selected for the poll are:

Coulthard
Partnerred Hakkinen during the 1998-1999 WDC seasons and in 2000/2001. Was also partner to Kimi in 2002 - 2004, and Damon Hill in 1994 - 1995. Was the main non Ferrari WDC challenger in 2001.

Irvine
Schumacher's first number two. Partnerred him at Ferrari from 1996 to 1999.

Barrichello
Probably the most 'famous' number 2 driver. Partnerred Schumacher during his 2000 - 2004 titles, as well as 2005. Was also partner to Jenson Button from 2006 to 2009, which included Button's championship year. Famously had to give up his race win to Schumacher at Austria in 2002.

Trulli
Partnerred Alonso at Renault prior to Alonso's WDC years.

Fisichella
Alonso's number two during the 2005 / 2006 campaign. Also partnered Kimi at Ferrari in 2009 after Massa's accident.

Massa
Partenerred Schumacher (2006), Kimi (2007 to 2009, including Kimi's 2007 season), and Alonso (2010 to 2013) Had a WDC challenge in 2008. Famously had to give up his race win at Hockenheim to Alonso in 2010.

Kovalainen
Partenered Lewis Hamilton at McLaren in 2008 and 2009, which included Hamilton's championship year. Along with Bottas in 2018, is the only WDC team mate to finish more than 3 places behind a WDC winner in the standings in the last 30 years.

Webber
Partnerred Sebastian Vettel from 2009 to 2013, including all four of his championship years (2010 - 2013) - famously gave the radio message "not bad for a number two driver" at Silverstone in 2010, as well as collided with Vettel at Turkey.

Bottas
Hamilton's team mate since 2017. Finished a distance 5th behind Hamilton in 2018, although did have to give his his race win to Hamilton at Russia that year, which would have left him third in the standings. Was Hamilton's main challenger in 2019 after starting the year strongly.


How to use the poll
To add a driver to the list, click on their name in the left column and it will move to the right hand column below whichever driver is highlighted in blue (obviously, in the empty list it just gets added in position 1)

To remove a driver from the list, click on the x by their name. To change the driver you are adding after, click on the driver in the right hand list and they will be turned blue. To insert a driver at the top, click on the right hand column header.

Note, you must have ranked all items in the poll to be able to vote and you cannot rank things 'equal'

KingVoid
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by KingVoid »

This is actually very difficult.

I voted Trulli as the best, because he actually beat Alonso on merit in 2004. He was a mighty fast qualifier and often a victim of his own excellent qualifying, when he would create a train because he outqualified those in faster cars. He’s also the only driver on the list above who never had a WDC capable car at his disposal.

Kovalainen is the worst. He finished 7th in a car his teammate won the title in, behind both BMW drivers and Alonso’s Renault. The only win of his career was a complete fluke. It was a close call with Irvine, but at least Irvine almost won a WDC, and his win at Austria 1999 was significantly more impressive than Kova’s win in Hungary.

In the end I went with:

1. Trulli
2. Bottas
3. Webber
4. Barrichello
5. Massa
6. Fisichella
7. Coulthard
8. Irvine
9. Kovalainen

Although everything from 3rd to 7th is so difficult to call.

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

Are we voting on how good each driver was or how good they were as a number 2?

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Mod Aqua
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Mod Aqua »

mikeyg123 wrote:Are we voting on how good each driver was or how good they were as a number 2?
I think that the spirit of the poll would be to rate them during their time as teammates with the driver they were number 2 to. (So for Barichello during his time with Schumacher, Massa would be during his time with Schumacher and Alonso, Coulthard while he was with Hakkinen etc...)

But it's rating how good they were as a driver, not necessarily how obedient/compliant they were.

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Are we voting on how good each driver was or how good they were as a number 2?
I think that the spirit of the poll would be to rate them during their time as teammates with the driver they were number 2 to. (So for Barichello during his time with Schumacher, Massa would be during his time with Schumacher and Alonso, Coulthard while he was with Hakkinen etc...)

But it's rating how good they were as a driver, not necessarily how obedient/compliant they were.
Great, thanks.

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Barrichello
2Coulthard
3Webber
4Bottas
5Massa
6Irvine
7Fisichella
8Trulli
9Kovalainen
A toss up between Barrichello and Coulthard for best. I know my placing of Coulthard may well be controversial but if we are purely judging him as his time as number 2 against Hill and Hakkinen then it has to be remembered that aside from 98 he often had the beating of Hakkinen.

A similar logic also accounts for Webber's high placing.

Fisichella would be much higher, possibly top or at least second if I was voting over a whole career rather than just his time as a number 2 to Alonso.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I'll be honest, I was worried what we were going to have to rank when I saw the thread title...

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Bottas
2Massa
3Barrichello
4Webber
5Trulli
6Coulthard
7Fisichella
8Kovalainen
9Irvine
I agree with KingVoid - this was difficult to rank, but there are definite layers. Irvine and Kovalainen were the easiest for me, they are fairly interchangeable however I feel that Heikki was driving a more difficult car - the 2008 McLaren was severely hobbled after Spygate, McLaren lost a lot of tricks that they weren't allowed to use by order of the FIA - whereas a lot of people at Ferrari feel they had the better car in 1999. Irvine's subsequent performances at Jaguar - after labelling himself as the second best driver on the grid after Schumacher - highlighted his lack of calibre. While Heikki didn't set the world alight at Caterlotusham, he at least seemed to drive the team forwards and made them the most credible of the 2010 newcomers.

The next group - for me - is the Trulli - Coulthard - Fisichella trio. For me, Trulli comes out top because of his performance against Alonso. Coulthard may have had his day against Hakkinen, and had a decent season in 2001, but he was always the bridesmaid in that partnership, he was in many ways more of a perpetual number 2 than Rubens: slower than Hill then slower than Mika then slower than Webber.... Fisichella always had promise but never delivered beyond the few memorable races.

We then come to the top four. These are all drivers who have been involved in title battles and have many race wins to their names. Massa and Webber have both taken title fights to the final race - but given that Bottas had the measure of Massa he has to go above him. When Webber was partnered with Vettel, he was past his peak speed, and was always fighting the political internal struggle at Red Bull. Fitting Rubens into this is very hard - he was very very fast, but Michael got in his head. I think in many ways Rubens had his head affected by Schumacher more than Massa did by Alonso - and ultimately whereas Massa had one credible title run (and was in contention for a little bit of 2007) Barrichello's 'title runs' were only technically title runs because no one could challenge Ferrari - and Ferrari policy was that Michael won the title for them. Massa meanwhile put himself in contention in 2008, despite everyone assuming Kimi would lead the Ferrari charge.
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KingVoid
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by KingVoid »

There really is no general consensus in this thread, there’s a huge diversity of opinion. I have Trulli as the best yet he’s second last here. :lol:

The only thing most people seem to agree on is that Kova was either the worst or second worst.

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Invade
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Invade »

I'm guessing people rate Button extremely highly given that Rubens is leading the poll.

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Exediron
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Exediron »

Invade wrote:I'm guessing people rate Button extremely highly given that Rubens is leading the poll.
I'd guess that most people would put Button at the top of these options, yeah. But consider also that Rubens was almost certainly past his peak when he partnered Jenson, and still looked pretty good.
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Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:I'll be honest, I was worried what we were going to have to rank when I saw the thread title...

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Bottas
2Massa
3Barrichello
4Webber
5Trulli
6Coulthard
7Fisichella
8Kovalainen
9Irvine
I agree with KingVoid - this was difficult to rank, but there are definite layers. Irvine and Kovalainen were the easiest for me, they are fairly interchangeable however I feel that Heikki was driving a more difficult car - the 2008 McLaren was severely hobbled after Spygate, McLaren lost a lot of tricks that they weren't allowed to use by order of the FIA - whereas a lot of people at Ferrari feel they had the better car in 1999. Irvine's subsequent performances at Jaguar - after labelling himself as the second best driver on the grid after Schumacher - highlighted his lack of calibre. While Heikki didn't set the world alight at Caterlotusham, he at least seemed to drive the team forwards and made them the most credible of the 2010 newcomers.

The next group - for me - is the Trulli - Coulthard - Fisichella trio. For me, Trulli comes out top because of his performance against Alonso. Coulthard may have had his day against Hakkinen, and had a decent season in 2001, but he was always the bridesmaid in that partnership, he was in many ways more of a perpetual number 2 than Rubens: slower than Hill then slower than Mika then slower than Webber.... Fisichella always had promise but never delivered beyond the few memorable races.

We then come to the top four. These are all drivers who have been involved in title battles and have many race wins to their names. Massa and Webber have both taken title fights to the final race - but given that Bottas had the measure of Massa he has to go above him. When Webber was partnered with Vettel, he was past his peak speed, and was always fighting the political internal struggle at Red Bull. Fitting Rubens into this is very hard - he was very very fast, but Michael got in his head. I think in many ways Rubens had his head affected by Schumacher more than Massa did by Alonso - and ultimately whereas Massa had one credible title run (and was in contention for a little bit of 2007) Barrichello's 'title runs' were only technically title runs because no one could challenge Ferrari - and Ferrari policy was that Michael won the title for them. Massa meanwhile put himself in contention in 2008, despite everyone assuming Kimi would lead the Ferrari charge.
[/color]
The only thing that somewhat bothers me in their pairing is that while Bottas had the measure of Massa, he is never consistent enough when needed. But Massa had a more "stable" run into his 2008 title run (even though Massa was more error prone in my view), Bottas usually fades away. For me consistency is always the key, all of these drivers were fast in their day, but never good enough to go the distance. This is why I put Massa above Bottas, even though in a direct comparison he lost comprehensively. Controversial, I know!

Rubens is similar, Webber and DC, never stable/consistent enough to seal the deal. I feel that DC deserves a little bit more credit than 6th though, he took the fight to a certain Schumacher and he sometimes got on top. Not often, but he did. And he was runner up in 2001 (ok, technically runner up!).

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:I'll be honest, I was worried what we were going to have to rank when I saw the thread title...

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Bottas
2Massa
3Barrichello
4Webber
5Trulli
6Coulthard
7Fisichella
8Kovalainen
9Irvine
I agree with KingVoid - this was difficult to rank, but there are definite layers. Irvine and Kovalainen were the easiest for me, they are fairly interchangeable however I feel that Heikki was driving a more difficult car - the 2008 McLaren was severely hobbled after Spygate, McLaren lost a lot of tricks that they weren't allowed to use by order of the FIA - whereas a lot of people at Ferrari feel they had the better car in 1999. Irvine's subsequent performances at Jaguar - after labelling himself as the second best driver on the grid after Schumacher - highlighted his lack of calibre. While Heikki didn't set the world alight at Caterlotusham, he at least seemed to drive the team forwards and made them the most credible of the 2010 newcomers.

The next group - for me - is the Trulli - Coulthard - Fisichella trio. For me, Trulli comes out top because of his performance against Alonso. Coulthard may have had his day against Hakkinen, and had a decent season in 2001, but he was always the bridesmaid in that partnership, he was in many ways more of a perpetual number 2 than Rubens: slower than Hill then slower than Mika then slower than Webber.... Fisichella always had promise but never delivered beyond the few memorable races.

We then come to the top four. These are all drivers who have been involved in title battles and have many race wins to their names. Massa and Webber have both taken title fights to the final race - but given that Bottas had the measure of Massa he has to go above him. When Webber was partnered with Vettel, he was past his peak speed, and was always fighting the political internal struggle at Red Bull. Fitting Rubens into this is very hard - he was very very fast, but Michael got in his head. I think in many ways Rubens had his head affected by Schumacher more than Massa did by Alonso - and ultimately whereas Massa had one credible title run (and was in contention for a little bit of 2007) Barrichello's 'title runs' were only technically title runs because no one could challenge Ferrari - and Ferrari policy was that Michael won the title for them. Massa meanwhile put himself in contention in 2008, despite everyone assuming Kimi would lead the Ferrari charge.
[/color]
The only thing that somewhat bothers me in their pairing is that while Bottas had the measure of Massa, he is never consistent enough when needed. But Massa had a more "stable" run into his 2008 title run (even though Massa was more error prone in my view), Bottas usually fades away. For me consistency is always the key, all of these drivers were fast in their day, but never good enough to go the distance. This is why I put Massa above Bottas, even though in a direct comparison he lost comprehensively. Controversial, I know!

Rubens is similar, Webber and DC, never stable/consistent enough to seal the deal. I feel that DC deserves a little bit more credit than 6th though, he took the fight to a certain Schumacher and he sometimes got on top. Not often, but he did. And he was runner up in 2001 (ok, technically runner up!).
Bar the bottom two, these are all top drawer drivers though - they all got into top teams on merit, so being 6th out of nine in this list is not like being 13th out of 20 on a season of drivers. I would say that (bar Irvine and Heikki) that they would all be top 10 drivers in any typical field, if not top 8.

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Johnson
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Johnson »

The ideal number is a right behind the number 1 but never really beating him. I put forward Jenson Button in 2010 as the ideal number 2 to Hamilton. Hamilton beat him basically every race unless something occured but Button was never that far behind. Button also had poor 1 lap pace so didn't out qualify so was never in his way.

Hamilton beat Button 10-3 when both finished in 2010. Once because Hamilton had a gearbox issue and Button passed him and 2 wet weather tyre gambles that paid off for Jenson with him winning both those races. He took points off of Hamiltons rivals throughout the season and was great in the wet.

KingVoid
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by KingVoid »

I don’t remember ever feeling that Button was a number 2 at any point in 2010. He was usually always behind Hamilton, but he was so consistent that he was somehow able to keep up in the WDC fight despite Button+McLaren being the slowest car+driver combination of the top 5 by a decent margin.

Also, it’s not like Button was that lucky in 2010 either. His engine expired in Monaco and he lost a 2nd place in Belgium when Vettel crashed into him. He actually lost more than Alonso did from misfortune that year. He (Jenson) was just very consistent.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

This thread isn't about what makes the ideal number two, or who would be the best number two - it's about ranking the drivers who have been cast in a number 2 role in their ability as a driver and the performance they have put in (as a driver, not a number two)

Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:I'll be honest, I was worried what we were going to have to rank when I saw the thread title...

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Bottas
2Massa
3Barrichello
4Webber
5Trulli
6Coulthard
7Fisichella
8Kovalainen
9Irvine
I agree with KingVoid - this was difficult to rank, but there are definite layers. Irvine and Kovalainen were the easiest for me, they are fairly interchangeable however I feel that Heikki was driving a more difficult car - the 2008 McLaren was severely hobbled after Spygate, McLaren lost a lot of tricks that they weren't allowed to use by order of the FIA - whereas a lot of people at Ferrari feel they had the better car in 1999. Irvine's subsequent performances at Jaguar - after labelling himself as the second best driver on the grid after Schumacher - highlighted his lack of calibre. While Heikki didn't set the world alight at Caterlotusham, he at least seemed to drive the team forwards and made them the most credible of the 2010 newcomers.

The next group - for me - is the Trulli - Coulthard - Fisichella trio. For me, Trulli comes out top because of his performance against Alonso. Coulthard may have had his day against Hakkinen, and had a decent season in 2001, but he was always the bridesmaid in that partnership, he was in many ways more of a perpetual number 2 than Rubens: slower than Hill then slower than Mika then slower than Webber.... Fisichella always had promise but never delivered beyond the few memorable races.

We then come to the top four. These are all drivers who have been involved in title battles and have many race wins to their names. Massa and Webber have both taken title fights to the final race - but given that Bottas had the measure of Massa he has to go above him. When Webber was partnered with Vettel, he was past his peak speed, and was always fighting the political internal struggle at Red Bull. Fitting Rubens into this is very hard - he was very very fast, but Michael got in his head. I think in many ways Rubens had his head affected by Schumacher more than Massa did by Alonso - and ultimately whereas Massa had one credible title run (and was in contention for a little bit of 2007) Barrichello's 'title runs' were only technically title runs because no one could challenge Ferrari - and Ferrari policy was that Michael won the title for them. Massa meanwhile put himself in contention in 2008, despite everyone assuming Kimi would lead the Ferrari charge.
[/color]
The only thing that somewhat bothers me in their pairing is that while Bottas had the measure of Massa, he is never consistent enough when needed. But Massa had a more "stable" run into his 2008 title run (even though Massa was more error prone in my view), Bottas usually fades away. For me consistency is always the key, all of these drivers were fast in their day, but never good enough to go the distance. This is why I put Massa above Bottas, even though in a direct comparison he lost comprehensively. Controversial, I know!

Rubens is similar, Webber and DC, never stable/consistent enough to seal the deal. I feel that DC deserves a little bit more credit than 6th though, he took the fight to a certain Schumacher and he sometimes got on top. Not often, but he did. And he was runner up in 2001 (ok, technically runner up!).
Bar the bottom two, these are all top drawer drivers though - they all got into top teams on merit, so being 6th out of nine in this list is not like being 13th out of 20 on a season of drivers. I would say that (bar Irvine and Heikki) that they would all be top 10 drivers in any typical field, if not top 8.
You are absolutely right. All these guys have won races, mostly on merit. A few of them had legit WDC runs. They are truly the 2nd tier of F1, deserving to mixing it with the creme de la creme and even besting them. It is to their credit and that is not contested here.

Oh my, I have just seen my voting and I have Trulli second from last. No idea how he ended up down there, I should have put him much higher. I wonder if there's a way to amend this.

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Covalent
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Covalent »

Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.

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Johnson
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:I don’t remember ever feeling that Button was a number 2 at any point in 2010. He was usually always behind Hamilton, but he was so consistent that he was somehow able to keep up in the WDC fight despite Button+McLaren being the slowest car+driver combination of the top 5 by a decent margin.

Also, it’s not like Button was that lucky in 2010 either. His engine expired in Monaco and he lost a 2nd place in Belgium when Vettel crashed into him. He actually lost more than Alonso did from misfortune that year. He (Jenson) was just very consistent.
Exactly, that is an ideal number 2, very close to the number 1 but rarely challenging them. Allows the team to maximise efforts in both the WDC and WCC. Most of the drivers on that list were so far off the number 1 driver pace that the teams didn't challenge for the WCC unless they had the best car.

He got himself on the fringes of the title fight but it was off the back of two tyre gambles in mixed conditions getting him into the lead (his specialty). I wouldn't say he had terrible luck in 2010, neither did Alonso. Button was heading for an 8th place finish in Monaco and Spa I believe would have been anywhere from 2nd-5th, he had a huge train of cars behind him that he had been holding up for 6-7 laps when he was taken out by Vettel.

pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
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KingVoid
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.

KingVoid
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:He got himself on the fringes of the title fight but it was off the back of two tyre gambles in mixed conditions getting him into the lead (his specialty). I wouldn't say he had terrible luck in 2010, neither did Alonso. Button was heading for an 8th place finish in Monaco and Spa I believe would have been anywhere from 2nd-5th, he had a huge train of cars behind him that he had been holding up for 6-7 laps when he was taken out by Vettel.
IIRC Button had some brake problems in Spa even before Vettel took him out, which might explain his relative lack of pace.

pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
It depends what your basing it on. For half a season he was better against Alonso than Fisichella. For a season and half Fisi was closer. I think over their careers Fisichella was quite a bit better until he came up against Alonso. That ruined him and he never recovered.

We actually have quite a few team mates to directly compare Fisichella and Trulli. Fisichella trounced Button and a year later Button edged out Trulli. Trulli was about equal to Ralf Schumacher and Fisichella was better. They both went against Kovalainen and he beat them both.

If I was judging based on a whole career rather than the time spent as a number two Fisichella would be 2nd on my list behind Barrichello.

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Fisichella - Massa

Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Banana Man »

Went with this. Tough call on the top 3 but I gave it to DC based on how close he ran Hakkinen, whereas Bottas and Rubens were further away from MSC and Ham.
1Coulthard
2Bottas
3Barrichello
4Webber
5Fisichella
6Massa
7Trulli
8Irvine
9Kovalainen
I remember when this website was all fields.

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:Which of the options have gone head to head against another one? Do we have enough data to make the head to head stats speak for themselves?

Webber-Coulthard
Trulli-Kovalainen
Fisichella-Kovalainen
Bottas-Massa

I'm sure there are more.
Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote: Indeed, I'm not sure if you're giving preference to the first typed in driver or if it's just random, but as a heads up I believe Kovalainen was better than both Fisichella and Trulli, he got the McLaren drive on the back of his performance against Fisichella.
If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote: If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
Despite all of this I do think Trulli looks to be an odd one out in this list. All the others had to back up their number ones while they thought for the championship and usually for multiple years. Trulli may have been a number two to Alonso but his circumstances were quite different.

Not that i think it overly matters in this context.

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
Despite all of this I do think Trulli looks to be an odd one out in this list. All the others had to back up their number ones while they thought for the championship and usually for multiple years. Trulli may have been a number two to Alonso but his circumstances were quite different.

Not that i think it overly matters in this context.
That's true, if any of the driver stands out a bit, it is Trulli. But he does fit the description that was given, so here we are!

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Mod Aqua »

The reason for Trulli was for two reasons - one is he's a driver of similar calibre to the others (and the poll results would agree) who partnered one of the multi WDCs from the last 20 years. The other reason, is that that the time Alonso was managed by Briatore and Trulli's relationship broke down with Renault, and I seem to remember a lot of people speculating Alonso received favouritism.

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote: If we use Alonso as a barometer then Trulli is definitely above Fisichella.
However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
So Trulli was given a team order which he ignored, that's not my definition of a #2 driver, drivers on occasion get given such orders which doesn't necessitate them being a #2 driver, Hamilton has had such an order given as has the likes of Vettel.

Trulli pre-dates Alonso being a WDC, after Alonso achieved this then we started getting all the demands for drivers to be treated as #2 drivers including Hamilton.
Last edited by pokerman on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Mod Aqua wrote:The reason for Trulli was for two reasons - one is he's a driver of similar calibre to the others (and the poll results would agree) who partnered one of the multi WDCs from the last 20 years. The other reason, is that that the time Alonso was managed by Briatore and Trulli's relationship broke down with Renault, and I seem to remember a lot of people speculating Alonso received favouritism.
For me the context of a #2 driver only really arrives in the wake of a WDC challenge and which driver provides the best support, Trulli was never put in that position and he certainly wasn't providing any support for Alonso in 2004.

In this context even Webber wasn't a #2 driver, sure he got a beating from Vettel but he was never called upon to support Vettel, his standing within the team seemed to be that of a joint #1 driver.
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: However does Trulli belong on the list, unlike the others he never had a WDC capable car so how was he ever the #2 to assist the #1 driver in a WDC title challenge?
It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
So Trulli was given a team order which he ignored, that's not my definition of a #2 driver, drivers on occasion get given such orders which doesn't necessitate them being a #2 driver, Hamilton has had such an order given has as the likes of Vettel.

Trulli pre-dates Alonso being a WDC, after Alonso achieved this then we started getting all the demands for drivers to be treated as #2 drivers including Hamilton.
Again, predating the WDC was not in the definition, just partnering one. This is getting down to semantics now, not sure I have the will to continue

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
Despite all of this I do think Trulli looks to be an odd one out in this list. All the others had to back up their number ones while they thought for the championship and usually for multiple years. Trulli may have been a number two to Alonso but his circumstances were quite different.

Not that i think it overly matters in this context.
That's true, if any of the driver stands out a bit, it is Trulli. But he does fit the description that was given, so here we are!
I find myself more in agreement with Pokerman's thinking on the subject of Trulli. His specific circumstances may have been due to the fact Alonso was still developing as a driver, and it may be that Briatore only truly became aware of Alonso's potential during the 2004 season.
I don't agree that Trulli was sacked by Briatore, because Jarno explained in an interview with Autosport that the contract he was presented with in the summer, contained a clause he couldn't accept. He didn't go into further detail than that, so we can make what we want of that bit of information. But in my view, he was never a number 2 - and I'm not sure about a few others in the list. Then again, team favour can make or break careers, and I believe there is a distinct possibility that some of them would have blossomed into more complete drivers (title candidates if you will), had their teams been a bit less selective in their driver support.

As for Trulli himself, I firmly believe that he had the speed to be more than a train driver. Qualifying and racing are two different disciplines, requiring two different cars in the modern F1 formula. Because of this, it was perhaps understandable of Renault/Briatore to focus on their all-rounder Alonso, rather than do what McLaren did for Räikkönen. But as we subsequently saw from Alonso's post-Renault career, it is the car that is the basis of success, not just being an all-rounder.

I hesitate to rank those drivers.
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote: It fits the description:

"These are drivers who have partnerred a WDC driver and were often seen or accused of being a supporting driver, or clear number two, either by orders or talent differential."

It doesn't say during a WDC car nor year, just partnered a WDC driver and been seen as a No2. It ticks the boxes, so Trulli is a good shout.
Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
So Trulli was given a team order which he ignored, that's not my definition of a #2 driver, drivers on occasion get given such orders which doesn't necessitate them being a #2 driver, Hamilton has had such an order given has as the likes of Vettel.

Trulli pre-dates Alonso being a WDC, after Alonso achieved this then we started getting all the demands for drivers to be treated as #2 drivers including Hamilton.
Again, predating the WDC was not in the definition, just partnering one. This is getting down to semantics now, not sure I have the will to continue
Trulli was never a #2 to Alonso, he was even beating him in the WDC before his sacking.
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
Despite all of this I do think Trulli looks to be an odd one out in this list. All the others had to back up their number ones while they thought for the championship and usually for multiple years. Trulli may have been a number two to Alonso but his circumstances were quite different.

Not that i think it overly matters in this context.
That's true, if any of the driver stands out a bit, it is Trulli. But he does fit the description that was given, so here we are!
I find myself more in agreement with Pokerman's thinking on the subject of Trulli. His specific circumstances may have been due to the fact Alonso was still developing as a driver, and it may be that Briatore only truly became aware of Alonso's potential during the 2004 season.
I don't agree that Trulli was sacked by Briatore, because Jarno explained in an interview with Autosport that the contract he was presented with in the summer, contained a clause he couldn't accept. He didn't go into further detail than that, so we can make what we want of that bit of information. But in my view, he was never a number 2 - and I'm not sure about a few others in the list. Then again, team favour can make or break careers, and I believe there is a distinct possibility that some of them would have blossomed into more complete drivers (title candidates if you will), had their teams been a bit less selective in their driver support.

As for Trulli himself, I firmly believe that he had the speed to be more than a train driver. Qualifying and racing are two different disciplines, requiring two different cars in the modern F1 formula. Because of this, it was perhaps understandable of Renault/Briatore to focus on their all-rounder Alonso, rather than do what McLaren did for Räikkönen. But as we subsequently saw from Alonso's post-Renault career, it is the car that is the basis of success, not just being an all-rounder.

I hesitate to rank those drivers.
Maybe what Trulli wouldn't agree to was that of being a #2 driver, a role his successor then took up?
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Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Trulli was never a supporting driver for Alonso or accused of being a supporting driver for Alonso, also he was beating Alonso on points when he was sacked by Briatore in the second half of the 2004 season, Alonso was never that driver of importance to have #2 drivers until he became WDC in 2005.
Oh come on, Briatore wanted Alonso in his team, he sacked Button (who was leading Trulli in 2002) to make way for Fernando. He always wanted an Alonso team with someone else as Nr 2. When Alonso dominated him in 2003 it was all mellow. When Trulli got his game in 2004, Briatore threw the toys out of the pram. Trulli never got anything out of the car at the second part of the season (he accused them of handing him inferior equipment - he was handed a crap chassis after he totalled his own in GB afterall - and favouring Alonso); performing that bad and still beat Alonso in the points was truly ironic and rubbed salt in the wound for Briatore. But the intention for him to be a Nr2 was quite clear, he was a medium driver (but great qualifier) for 7 years that performed well in 2004 out of nowhere and that was uncomfortable for Flavio. Mind you, Trulli had already taken the decision to leave for Toyota in the summer and everyone knew it, so the sacking by the team just reeked of pettiness. Oh, I also remember that Trulli was asked to give way for Alonso in Spa, reported by Turun Sanomat at the time. Trulli didn't oblige from memory, so yes Alonso was important enough to get team orders in his favour.

And as a general note, Leclerc was also brought in as a Nr2 for the beginning of 2019, the fact that he performed better than Vettel doesn't change that.
Despite all of this I do think Trulli looks to be an odd one out in this list. All the others had to back up their number ones while they thought for the championship and usually for multiple years. Trulli may have been a number two to Alonso but his circumstances were quite different.

Not that i think it overly matters in this context.
That's true, if any of the driver stands out a bit, it is Trulli. But he does fit the description that was given, so here we are!
I find myself more in agreement with Pokerman's thinking on the subject of Trulli. His specific circumstances may have been due to the fact Alonso was still developing as a driver, and it may be that Briatore only truly became aware of Alonso's potential during the 2004 season.
I don't agree that Trulli was sacked by Briatore, because Jarno explained in an interview with Autosport that the contract he was presented with in the summer, contained a clause he couldn't accept. He didn't go into further detail than that, so we can make what we want of that bit of information. But in my view, he was never a number 2 - and I'm not sure about a few others in the list. Then again, team favour can make or break careers, and I believe there is a distinct possibility that some of them would have blossomed into more complete drivers (title candidates if you will), had their teams been a bit less selective in their driver support.

As for Trulli himself, I firmly believe that he had the speed to be more than a train driver. Qualifying and racing are two different disciplines, requiring two different cars in the modern F1 formula. Because of this, it was perhaps understandable of Renault/Briatore to focus on their all-rounder Alonso, rather than do what McLaren did for Räikkönen. But as we subsequently saw from Alonso's post-Renault career, it is the car that is the basis of success, not just being an all-rounder.

I hesitate to rank those drivers.
Jarno had already made arrangements with Toyota as early as June or something as I mentioned before, everyone knew he was leaving and he had said it himself publicly. The fact that they decided to dump their highest points driver while in contest for 2nd position in the WCC was quite telling that Jarno had upset the higher-ups during the contract discussions. He had mentioned the hostility he experienced since the discussions ended fruitless. This does not make the other driver a Nr 2 exactly, but it was fairly obvious what they thought of him; Flavio was using comments like Jarno only won the Monaco because Alonso crashed, or when Pat Symmonds said that they should put an alarm clock to keep him awake in the races after Magny Cours, giving him the inferior car and strategies, etc. Alonso may have been developing as a driver, but Button's sacking (their leading driver in 2002 against Trulli) to make space for Alonso gave the impression that they had already decided that he would be the main man in the years to come.

And I never agreed that he was a de facto Nr 2 driver; all I was trying to pass to pokerman is that by the definition that the Mod gave, he fits the bill. He partnered a WDC (not at the time, but that was not specified) and he was perceived as a supporting driver by some, or at least given his treatment by Renault at times. I agree with you that Trulli had shown speed, but his main advantage was always his one lap speed and then defending in the races.

Fiki
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:Jarno had already made arrangements with Toyota as early as June or something as I mentioned before, everyone knew he was leaving and he had said it himself publicly.
I can't find that in the Autosport news archive. In fact, the initial impression in June is the contrary. Not that I doubt Jarno had been speaking with Toyota; he would have been unwise not to.
Can you indicate where you found news to explain what you remember?
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Mod Aqua
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Mod Aqua »

While you are free to continue the discussion about whether Trulli is truly a number two or not, for the purposes of this poll I just needed a punchy way of describing this group of drivers - drivers who aren’t WDCs but are generally considered not at the same level as the drivers they partnered. Yes Trulli was beating Alonso, however not to the same degree Ricciardo beat Vettel, and ultimately the polling is ranking Trulli far from the top so it seems this is a fair group of drivers to be assessed against.

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