Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before USA

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What caused Ferrari's lack of pace in Austin?

Engine changed to comply with technical directive
27
59%
Circuit does not suit their car
8
17%
Had to avoid kerbs and bumps
0
No votes
Trialing high downforce setting
3
7%
Sandbagging
0
No votes
Leclerc ate too much of Binotto's birthday cake
5
11%
Other
3
7%
 
Total votes: 46

Caserole of Nonsense
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:There is no way on this earth ferrari have been acting within the spirit of the rules. I would call it cheating. This is year 6 of the hybrid engines. Performance generally converges over time, especially when there is such limited room for improvement. mercedes have done an incredible job on their engine, to which ferrari have lagged behind for years, but suddenly ferrari have found a legitimate improvement to make the other engines look like lawnmowers. give over. for the other manufacturers to be scratching their heads thinking we dont know how they are doing it says it all. ferrari international assistance are not going to come out and say ferrari were cheating. it wouldnt suprise me if they knew all along but its in their interest to have ferrari at the front giving the mercs a race.
"No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.

pokerman
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:I have a question for the third directive issued by the FIA.

If their answer to everything is to install another fuel sensor, what would stop a team to do the same "interference" trick? I read somewhere that it may be installed inside the fuel tank, which I guess would make it impossible to interfere (no cables in the fuel tank). But then why would you need a second one? They could just have the one in the fuel tank if the other can be tampered with.
Matthew Sommerfield, F1 technical expert, said it's just another sensor to cheat.
Do you have a link to that? I googled it and couldn't find anything.

I can't believe that the FIA would be so daft to just add another sensor that is vulnerable in exactly the same way as RB "described" in their documents, it is idiotic to say the least.
It's something I heard second hand on one of the latest Misses Apex podcasts, probably from 'Trumpets' who does some work for 'Sommers', I will endeavour to find it although it might take some time.

Me personally I'm not a technical person at all but from what I read it's a quick way to find performance whether from the batteries were a second sensor had to be fitted or more recently with the fuel flow.

As for the FIA stewards it's fair to say they are not as clever as the engineers working within the teams.
Ok, don't worry about finding it, I was just wondering, not asking you to go to lengths over this. If they indeed use the same sensors, the sensors that RB told them can be tampered with and even told them exactly how this can be achieved, then it's not about not being as clever, it is down right idiotic and I'd be happy if the teams cheated. Then again nothing should surprise us
I've found it, the discussion about the issue starts at 39:20, the reference to 'Sommers' is at 46:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2USRKirDvhk
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I think it is fairly certain that Ferrari have found a trick with the engine design - because the sudden performance increase is not in line with the expected gains. Ultimately - there is a fundamental power limit that the engines can generate. The MGU-K is limited to 160bhp - and the ICE has a laws of physics maximum of around 2000bhp (as they are at around 45% thermal efficiency) - but 100% thermal efficiency is not possible, 50% is not really possible, but if we were to work with that, then we can expect that if a team was to build the absolute perfect engine, they would get 1000bhp from the engine. But every step towards that theorectical perfect engine is twice as difficult as the last - this is why convergence happens the longer regulations exist. While the best team or engine may continue to stay ahead, their steps become smaller and the gap closes.

The thing with Ferrari's jump is that it was so big it was not in line with this development cycle. While is is possible that teams make steps at a faster rate, Ferrari's jump was much more than this meaning there was a fundamental difference with their progress. It suggests they are doing something different, and have likely spotted an avenue that none of the others are using - the question is, is it a legal loophole or an illegal one.

Tricking the sensors would be illegal (and the broad consensus on here seems to agree with that) - as it wouldn't be exploiting a loophole in the regulations, it would be subverting a legal check that is explicitly stated in the rules as being illegal. However that's only one possible explanation and others do exist (mostly concerning getting additional explodey stuff into the combustion chamber - most of which are either illegal or impossible to police)

It's also possible that they are doing someone clever with the ERS. While the power output is limited to 160bhp and the energy transfer from the battery to the MGU-K strictly governed, there is no limit on the energy transfer to the MGU-K from the MGU-H, and it's possible Ferrari have found a way to send more power to the K from the H than the other teams. As no one is mentioning additional MGU-K usage, I'm assuming this is not the case (as the teams would be able to tell whether it's coming from the K or the ICE based on the acceleration curves from the GPS traces) - but maybe Ferrari are cleverly deploying additional K usage to look like extra grunt from their ICE.

If that is what Ferrari have done, it could fall into one of three possible options: A completely legal, and ingenious new idea ; a completely legal, and clever manipulation of a loophole; or an illegal way of bypassing the battery to K deployment by making it look like it's coming from the H.

Again, I should stress, this is just a possible hypothesis - and an unlikely one at that given the narrative in the press - but the point of it is to explain why the teams are suspicious of Ferrari's engine development, why it goes beyond just "maybe they have done a much better job", but why there is still no evidence of them having done anything wrong.

Siao7
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Siao7 »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:There is no way on this earth ferrari have been acting within the spirit of the rules. I would call it cheating. This is year 6 of the hybrid engines. Performance generally converges over time, especially when there is such limited room for improvement. mercedes have done an incredible job on their engine, to which ferrari have lagged behind for years, but suddenly ferrari have found a legitimate improvement to make the other engines look like lawnmowers. give over. for the other manufacturers to be scratching their heads thinking we dont know how they are doing it says it all. ferrari international assistance are not going to come out and say ferrari were cheating. it wouldnt suprise me if they knew all along but its in their interest to have ferrari at the front giving the mercs a race.
"No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.
Oh, I didn't want to tell you how to form your opinion, sorry if it came across like that. But equally, maybe you are a tad harsh in proving them guilty without solid proof?

The Ferrari performance improvement didn't come suddenly as you mentioned, it has been incremental the last few years, since the tokens were scrapped. So maybe they are reaching the potential that was crippled by the token system. Honda have also made huge strides the last couple of years, even winning races this season and making Mercedes look ordinary on the last GP, when under the token system they were a "GP2" engine. Why aren't they being investigated/judged?

Siao7
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Matthew Sommerfield, F1 technical expert, said it's just another sensor to cheat.
Do you have a link to that? I googled it and couldn't find anything.

I can't believe that the FIA would be so daft to just add another sensor that is vulnerable in exactly the same way as RB "described" in their documents, it is idiotic to say the least.
It's something I heard second hand on one of the latest Misses Apex podcasts, probably from 'Trumpets' who does some work for 'Sommers', I will endeavour to find it although it might take some time.

Me personally I'm not a technical person at all but from what I read it's a quick way to find performance whether from the batteries were a second sensor had to be fitted or more recently with the fuel flow.

As for the FIA stewards it's fair to say they are not as clever as the engineers working within the teams.
Ok, don't worry about finding it, I was just wondering, not asking you to go to lengths over this. If they indeed use the same sensors, the sensors that RB told them can be tampered with and even told them exactly how this can be achieved, then it's not about not being as clever, it is down right idiotic and I'd be happy if the teams cheated. Then again nothing should surprise us
I've found it, the discussion about the issue starts at 39:20, the reference to 'Sommers' is at 46:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2USRKirDvhk
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F1_Ernie
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:There is no way on this earth ferrari have been acting within the spirit of the rules. I would call it cheating. This is year 6 of the hybrid engines. Performance generally converges over time, especially when there is such limited room for improvement. mercedes have done an incredible job on their engine, to which ferrari have lagged behind for years, but suddenly ferrari have found a legitimate improvement to make the other engines look like lawnmowers. give over. for the other manufacturers to be scratching their heads thinking we dont know how they are doing it says it all. ferrari international assistance are not going to come out and say ferrari were cheating. it wouldnt suprise me if they knew all along but its in their interest to have ferrari at the front giving the mercs a race.
"No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.
Oh, I didn't want to tell you how to form your opinion, sorry if it came across like that. But equally, maybe you are a tad harsh in proving them guilty without solid proof?

The Ferrari performance improvement didn't come suddenly as you mentioned, it has been incremental the last few years, since the tokens were scrapped. So maybe they are reaching the potential that was crippled by the token system. Honda have also made huge strides the last couple of years, even winning races this season and making Mercedes look ordinary on the last GP, when under the token system they were a "GP2" engine. Why aren't they being investigated/judged?
Red Bull won at Austria and Brazil which are high altitude tracks, Mercedes always struggle at high altitude tracks. Germany was wet. I dont think that requires an investigation.
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Siao7
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:There is no way on this earth ferrari have been acting within the spirit of the rules. I would call it cheating. This is year 6 of the hybrid engines. Performance generally converges over time, especially when there is such limited room for improvement. mercedes have done an incredible job on their engine, to which ferrari have lagged behind for years, but suddenly ferrari have found a legitimate improvement to make the other engines look like lawnmowers. give over. for the other manufacturers to be scratching their heads thinking we dont know how they are doing it says it all. ferrari international assistance are not going to come out and say ferrari were cheating. it wouldnt suprise me if they knew all along but its in their interest to have ferrari at the front giving the mercs a race.
"No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.
Oh, I didn't want to tell you how to form your opinion, sorry if it came across like that. But equally, maybe you are a tad harsh in proving them guilty without solid proof?

The Ferrari performance improvement didn't come suddenly as you mentioned, it has been incremental the last few years, since the tokens were scrapped. So maybe they are reaching the potential that was crippled by the token system. Honda have also made huge strides the last couple of years, even winning races this season and making Mercedes look ordinary on the last GP, when under the token system they were a "GP2" engine. Why aren't they being investigated/judged?
Red Bull won at Austria and Brazil which are high altitude tracks, Mercedes always struggle at high altitude tracks. Germany was wet. I dont think that requires an investigation.
Fair points. They also were faster than Ferrari, but anyway

Caserole of Nonsense
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Caserole of Nonsense »

Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:There is no way on this earth ferrari have been acting within the spirit of the rules. I would call it cheating. This is year 6 of the hybrid engines. Performance generally converges over time, especially when there is such limited room for improvement. mercedes have done an incredible job on their engine, to which ferrari have lagged behind for years, but suddenly ferrari have found a legitimate improvement to make the other engines look like lawnmowers. give over. for the other manufacturers to be scratching their heads thinking we dont know how they are doing it says it all. ferrari international assistance are not going to come out and say ferrari were cheating. it wouldnt suprise me if they knew all along but its in their interest to have ferrari at the front giving the mercs a race.
"No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.
Oh, I didn't want to tell you how to form your opinion, sorry if it came across like that. But equally, maybe you are a tad harsh in proving them guilty without solid proof?


The Ferrari performance improvement didn't come suddenly as you mentioned, it has been incremental the last few years, since the tokens were scrapped. So maybe they are reaching the potential that was crippled by the token system. Honda have also made huge strides the last couple of years, even winning races this season and making Mercedes look ordinary on the last GP, when under the token system they were a "GP2" engine. Why aren't they being investigated/judged?
No it wasnt sudden your right. There were questions last year (when they had unbelievable acceleration out of the corners) that they were using the electric power in an inventive fashion. But this year they have had an even bigger advantage. I think what has happened with the recent questions from red bull etc is these teams have come to the conclusion that to get that level of performance they must be doing something "clever" that maybe against the rules. I imagine the merc red bull etc engineers have been scratching there heads to try and find a way to get ferrari performance and have ended up with a list of options, most of which are illegal and have therefore asked the fia to confirm the legality. the fact that the ferrari engine now seems to have lost part of its edge says it all.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by F1_Ernie »

Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote: "No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.
Oh, I didn't want to tell you how to form your opinion, sorry if it came across like that. But equally, maybe you are a tad harsh in proving them guilty without solid proof?

The Ferrari performance improvement didn't come suddenly as you mentioned, it has been incremental the last few years, since the tokens were scrapped. So maybe they are reaching the potential that was crippled by the token system. Honda have also made huge strides the last couple of years, even winning races this season and making Mercedes look ordinary on the last GP, when under the token system they were a "GP2" engine. Why aren't they being investigated/judged?
Red Bull won at Austria and Brazil which are high altitude tracks, Mercedes always struggle at high altitude tracks. Germany was wet. I dont think that requires an investigation.
Fair points. They also were faster than Ferrari, but anyway
I thought Ferrari was still the quickest on the straights just not to the same advantage as they had earlier in the season.
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Blake
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Blake »

Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:There is no way on this earth ferrari have been acting within the spirit of the rules. I would call it cheating. This is year 6 of the hybrid engines. Performance generally converges over time, especially when there is such limited room for improvement. mercedes have done an incredible job on their engine, to which ferrari have lagged behind for years, but suddenly ferrari have found a legitimate improvement to make the other engines look like lawnmowers. give over. for the other manufacturers to be scratching their heads thinking we dont know how they are doing it says it all. ferrari international assistance are not going to come out and say ferrari were cheating. it wouldnt suprise me if they knew all along but its in their interest to have ferrari at the front giving the mercs a race.
"No way on this earth" unfortunately is not proof. Would you be happy if the FIA punished them based on that and it turned out that they may have just done too good a job?
its my opinion based on the straight line performance of the cars. I dont need proof for a opinion. The fia can only punish if they have proof. doesnt mean they werent cheating. and the fia dont want to have to punish them because it brings the sport into disrepute. they are quite happy to throw in a few technical directives and look the other way.
Oh, I didn't want to tell you how to form your opinion, sorry if it came across like that. But equally, maybe you are a tad harsh in proving them guilty without solid proof?


The Ferrari performance improvement didn't come suddenly as you mentioned, it has been incremental the last few years, since the tokens were scrapped. So maybe they are reaching the potential that was crippled by the token system. Honda have also made huge strides the last couple of years, even winning races this season and making Mercedes look ordinary on the last GP, when under the token system they were a "GP2" engine. Why aren't they being investigated/judged?
No it wasnt sudden your right. There were questions last year (when they had unbelievable acceleration out of the corners) that they were using the electric power in an inventive fashion. But this year they have had an even bigger advantage. I think what has happened with the recent questions from red bull etc is these teams have come to the conclusion that to get that level of performance they must be doing something "clever" that maybe against the rules. I imagine the merc red bull etc engineers have been scratching there heads to try and find a way to get ferrari performance and have ended up with a list of options, most of which are illegal and have therefore asked the fia to confirm the legality. the fact that the ferrari engine now seems to have lost part of its edge says it all.
NO, it doesn't say it all. It merely says how you care to see it, NOTHING more. To this date, there is no proof of wrong doing.
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A.J.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by A.J. »

Exediron wrote:
A.J. wrote:This isn't any different (in my mind) from the flexi-wing thing for which RedBull and Newey were (largely) admired, or even the blown diffusers - the FIA sets the rules, figures out the tests, and the teams have to comply with them. If a team can figure out a way to get an advantage and still be compliant, they can and will do it. It is up to the FIA to police them - there is no gentleman's code that any team is following. How does one know where to draw the line?
It's different from those examples for the key reason that the rules are black and white on the subject of fuel flow. If Ferrari is doing anything at all to get more fuel into the engine than allowed, they are cheating. The rules even state outright that any system designed to circumvent the sensor is illegal. There really isn't any room for interpretation.

This is more similar to allegations that Red Bull was using traction control on their cars circa 2013. If Red Bull had been proven to be doing so (and they never were), that would not have been finding a clever loophole. It would have been cheating.
Except that we don't even know if that's what they have done - or what they have done at all - to imply that they are somehow circumventing the sensor(s) without proof is slander at best. As are the suggestions that the FIA is somehow protecting Ferrari for whatever reason - that's basically all I see in the echo chamber that this thread has become.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Exediron »

A.J. wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A.J. wrote:This isn't any different (in my mind) from the flexi-wing thing for which RedBull and Newey were (largely) admired, or even the blown diffusers - the FIA sets the rules, figures out the tests, and the teams have to comply with them. If a team can figure out a way to get an advantage and still be compliant, they can and will do it. It is up to the FIA to police them - there is no gentleman's code that any team is following. How does one know where to draw the line?
It's different from those examples for the key reason that the rules are black and white on the subject of fuel flow. If Ferrari is doing anything at all to get more fuel into the engine than allowed, they are cheating. The rules even state outright that any system designed to circumvent the sensor is illegal. There really isn't any room for interpretation.

This is more similar to allegations that Red Bull was using traction control on their cars circa 2013. If Red Bull had been proven to be doing so (and they never were), that would not have been finding a clever loophole. It would have been cheating.
Except that we don't even know if that's what they have done - or what they have done at all - to imply that they are somehow circumventing the sensor(s) without proof is slander at best. As are the suggestions that the FIA is somehow protecting Ferrari for whatever reason - that's basically all I see in the echo chamber that this thread has become.
If you look through my post, you will see an important 'if' in there.

I am not implying that Ferrari is cheating. I am saying that if Ferrari is doing what is alleged, that is cheating. You said where do we draw the line, and I'm saying that there already is a line: if the rules outright state you can't do exactly what you're doing, you're over the line. If the rules imply that you can't but don't state it, that's different. But there is none of that wiggle room around the fuel flow sensor.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
A.J. wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A.J. wrote:This isn't any different (in my mind) from the flexi-wing thing for which RedBull and Newey were (largely) admired, or even the blown diffusers - the FIA sets the rules, figures out the tests, and the teams have to comply with them. If a team can figure out a way to get an advantage and still be compliant, they can and will do it. It is up to the FIA to police them - there is no gentleman's code that any team is following. How does one know where to draw the line?
It's different from those examples for the key reason that the rules are black and white on the subject of fuel flow. If Ferrari is doing anything at all to get more fuel into the engine than allowed, they are cheating. The rules even state outright that any system designed to circumvent the sensor is illegal. There really isn't any room for interpretation.

This is more similar to allegations that Red Bull was using traction control on their cars circa 2013. If Red Bull had been proven to be doing so (and they never were), that would not have been finding a clever loophole. It would have been cheating.
Except that we don't even know if that's what they have done - or what they have done at all - to imply that they are somehow circumventing the sensor(s) without proof is slander at best. As are the suggestions that the FIA is somehow protecting Ferrari for whatever reason - that's basically all I see in the echo chamber that this thread has become.
If you look through my post, you will see an important 'if' in there.

I am not implying that Ferrari is cheating. I am saying that if Ferrari is doing what is alleged, that is cheating. You said where do we draw the line, and I'm saying that there already is a line: if the rules outright state you can't do exactly what you're doing, you're over the line. If the rules imply that you can't but don't state it, that's different. But there is none of that wiggle room around the fuel flow sensor.
Well, that's what all have been saying, even the posters that are "defending" Ferrari if you want, that they should be innocent until proven guilty. "If they are cheating throw the book at them" is essentially what I wrote before in this thread before, but of course you need proof to do that. There are however people that are certain that Ferrari have cheated, even if there no such outcome from numerous investigations. There's a very big possibility that they are doing something very clever or very illegal, but until we find out more, we should be patient.

The RB example is valid in the sense that they did exactly what the rules allowed, the wings were not flexing under the specified load, but they did under a higher load during the race, so by the letter of the rule they did meet the requirement. Clever and not a cheat per ce, one of those loopholes that the FIA could have so easily prevented, but left the door open. I agree that the fuel is a black and white, so if they are doing something wrong it will be easy to find out and punish it.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A.J. wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A.J. wrote:This isn't any different (in my mind) from the flexi-wing thing for which RedBull and Newey were (largely) admired, or even the blown diffusers - the FIA sets the rules, figures out the tests, and the teams have to comply with them. If a team can figure out a way to get an advantage and still be compliant, they can and will do it. It is up to the FIA to police them - there is no gentleman's code that any team is following. How does one know where to draw the line?
It's different from those examples for the key reason that the rules are black and white on the subject of fuel flow. If Ferrari is doing anything at all to get more fuel into the engine than allowed, they are cheating. The rules even state outright that any system designed to circumvent the sensor is illegal. There really isn't any room for interpretation.

This is more similar to allegations that Red Bull was using traction control on their cars circa 2013. If Red Bull had been proven to be doing so (and they never were), that would not have been finding a clever loophole. It would have been cheating.
Except that we don't even know if that's what they have done - or what they have done at all - to imply that they are somehow circumventing the sensor(s) without proof is slander at best. As are the suggestions that the FIA is somehow protecting Ferrari for whatever reason - that's basically all I see in the echo chamber that this thread has become.
If you look through my post, you will see an important 'if' in there.

I am not implying that Ferrari is cheating. I am saying that if Ferrari is doing what is alleged, that is cheating. You said where do we draw the line, and I'm saying that there already is a line: if the rules outright state you can't do exactly what you're doing, you're over the line. If the rules imply that you can't but don't state it, that's different. But there is none of that wiggle room around the fuel flow sensor.
Well, that's what all have been saying, even the posters that are "defending" Ferrari if you want, that they should be innocent until proven guilty. "If they are cheating throw the book at them" is essentially what I wrote before in this thread before, but of course you need proof to do that. There are however people that are certain that Ferrari have cheated, even if there no such outcome from numerous investigations. There's a very big possibility that they are doing something very clever or very illegal, but until we find out more, we should be patient.

The RB example is valid in the sense that they did exactly what the rules allowed, the wings were not flexing under the specified load, but they did under a higher load during the race, so by the letter of the rule they did meet the requirement. Clever and not a cheat per ce, one of those loopholes that the FIA could have so easily prevented, but left the door open. I agree that the fuel is a black and white, so if they are doing something wrong it will be easy to find out and punish it.
If Ferrari are guilty we will probably never find out, not until years later at least, this has happened before albeit under a different regime, all you can observe is on track performance, wasn't it said last year that Ferrari lost performance last year after a second sensor was fitted to their battery?
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:If Ferrari are guilty we will probably never find out, not until years later at least, this has happened before albeit under a different regime, all you can observe is on track performance, wasn't it said last year that Ferrari lost performance last year after a second sensor was fitted to their battery?
It was said. Many things are said. Around the same time Ferrari went down a bad design path with their floor; who's to say what was the reason for their dip in performance?
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:If Ferrari are guilty we will probably never find out, not until years later at least, this has happened before albeit under a different regime, all you can observe is on track performance, wasn't it said last year that Ferrari lost performance last year after a second sensor was fitted to their battery?
It was said. Many things are said. Around the same time Ferrari went down a bad design path with their floor; who's to say what was the reason for their dip in performance?
They also had new software I believe. Anyway, I'm not going to get drawn into this again

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:If Ferrari are guilty we will probably never find out, not until years later at least, this has happened before albeit under a different regime, all you can observe is on track performance, wasn't it said last year that Ferrari lost performance last year after a second sensor was fitted to their battery?
It was said. Many things are said. Around the same time Ferrari went down a bad design path with their floor; who's to say what was the reason for their dip in performance?
Just a coincidence like perhaps we see this year?
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Clarky »

Pretty conclusive now imo.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Clarky wrote:Pretty conclusive now imo.
Indeed a far cry from qualifying dominance before the TD.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by mikeyg123 »

If Ferrari weren't cheating then the timing of their loss of performance is a massive coincidence. Occams razor and all that.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Johnson »

Fastest Ferrari compared to fastest Mercedes

-0.750 Spa
-0.050 Monza
-0.200 Singapore
-0.400 Russia
-0.200 Japan
-0.250 Mexico
+0.020 USA
-0.050 Brazil
+0.450 AD

Was the technical directive before USA? Ferrari seem to have dropped at least 0.3 since then on 1 lap pace. Mercedes haven’t developed the car much either since the summer.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:If Ferrari weren't cheating then the timing of their loss of performance is a massive coincidence. Occams razor and all that.
Well their surprising performance in Singapore, a track full of slow corners, was put down to recent aero upgrades, maybe the TD took away their aero upgrades given their poor performance in S3 which is full of slow corners?
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:Fastest Ferrari compared to fastest Mercedes

-0.750 Spa
-0.050 Monza
-0.200 Singapore
-0.400 Russia
-0.200 Japan
-0.250 Mexico
+0.020 USA
-0.050 Brazil
+0.450 AD

Was the technical directive before USA? Ferrari seem to have dropped at least 0.3 since then on 1 lap pace. Mercedes haven’t developed the car much either since the summer.
Yes since Austin and like you say 3 tenths seem to have gone missing somewhere.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by j man »

Johnson wrote:Fastest Ferrari compared to fastest Mercedes

-0.750 Spa
-0.050 Monza
-0.200 Singapore
-0.400 Russia
-0.200 Japan
-0.250 Mexico
+0.020 USA
-0.050 Brazil
+0.450 AD

Was the technical directive before USA? Ferrari seem to have dropped at least 0.3 since then on 1 lap pace. Mercedes haven’t developed the car much either since the summer.
:thumbup:

The shift in performance is undeniable and difficult to explain by any other means.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Mercedes is very dominant in this track but more than 43secs behind them and more than 26secs behind RBR. They have lost lot of performance because Singapore they were pretty good.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Greenman »

.

Well I think today's race have proved Ferrari's loss of performance - Bottas embarrassed them starting from the back.

.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Rockie »

Greenman wrote:.

Well I think today's race have proved Ferrari's loss of performance - Bottas embarrassed them starting from the back.

.
Abu dhabi has always been a bogey track for Ferrari.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

Well I think today's race have proved Ferrari's loss of performance - Bottas embarrassed them starting from the back.

.
Abu dhabi has always been a bogey track for Ferrari.
They haven't had a pole position since the TD whereas before they were dominant, they also haven't won a race whereas before they were winning regularly.
Last edited by pokerman on Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Invade »

They probably were, yes. The timing is highly suspicious, ya must admit.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by SmoothRide »

I get the impression that Ferrari lost something but it wasn't necessarily pure horsepower. They were still fast in the speed traps at Abu Dhabi and vettel had fastest times in sectors 1 and 2 in qualifying. It was the twisty third sector where they were slow both in quali and the race. Looking back to Singapore, they were excellent on that twisty track so if they lost something, it seems to be in the chassis department.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Clarky »

SmoothRide wrote:I get the impression that Ferrari lost something but it wasn't necessarily pure horsepower. They were still fast in the speed traps at Abu Dhabi and vettel had fastest times in sectors 1 and 2 in qualifying. It was the twisty third sector where they were slow both in quali and the race. Looking back to Singapore, they were excellent on that twisty track so if they lost something, it seems to be in the chassis department.
This is my opinion.

Ferrari got caught tricking the fuel sensors. Since the TD was issued (last 3 races) their mega straight line speed in qualifying has somewhat disappeared as well as their speed through the corners slow speed corners.

This suggests that they have had removed downforce to compensate the straight line speed.
Last edited by Clarky on Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

Well I think today's race have proved Ferrari's loss of performance - Bottas embarrassed them starting from the back.

.
Abu dhabi has always been a bogey track for Ferrari.
They haven't had a pole position since the TD whereas before they were dominant, they also haven't won a race whereas before they were winning regularly.
This is just nonsense Ferrari won 3 races in the said period.

What Ferrari lost was somewhere in the chassis which is a double whammy for them as it affects their tyre life as well.

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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

SmoothRide wrote:I get the impression that Ferrari lost something but it wasn't necessarily pure horsepower. They were still fast in the speed traps at Abu Dhabi and vettel had fastest times in sectors 1 and 2 in qualifying. It was the twisty third sector where they were slow both in quali and the race. Looking back to Singapore, they were excellent on that twisty track so if they lost something, it seems to be in the chassis department.
The aero upgrade that transformed the car In Singapore disappeared in Abu Dhabi, or an engine upgrade allowed them to use more downforce in Singapore without sacrificing straight line speed, then the TD came along took away the engine upgrade then they had to make a choice between straight line speed and downforce?
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Greenman wrote:.

Well I think today's race have proved Ferrari's loss of performance - Bottas embarrassed them starting from the back.

.
Abu dhabi has always been a bogey track for Ferrari.
They haven't had a pole position since the TD whereas before they were dominant, they also haven't won a race whereas before they were winning regularly.
This is just nonsense Ferrari won 3 races in the said period.

What Ferrari lost was somewhere in the chassis which is a double whammy for them as it affects their tyre life as well.
There's only been 3 races since the TD, I'm sure that Ferrari didn't win the last 3 races of the season.

A pure coincidence that the TD which only would affect engine performance came at at a time when Ferrari lost chassis performance.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 2

Post by M44 »


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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 2

Post by j man »

So they've reached a private settlement, the specifics of which must remain a secret. What a wonderful way to run a sporting competition.

But basically yes, as anyone with even an ounce of common sense had already deduced, Ferrari were cheating last year.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 2

Post by Option or Prime »

j man wrote:
So they've reached a private settlement, the specifics of which must remain a secret. What a wonderful way to run a sporting competition.

But basically yes, as anyone with even an ounce of common sense had already deduced, Ferrari were cheating last year.
The big question is what would the FIA have done if the 2019 setup won them the Championship! This private settlement should work in both situations.

I wonder what the other teams make of this?

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 2

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
j man wrote:
So they've reached a private settlement, the specifics of which must remain a secret. What a wonderful way to run a sporting competition.

But basically yes, as anyone with even an ounce of common sense had already deduced, Ferrari were cheating last year.
The big question is what would the FIA have done if the 2019 setup won them the Championship! This private settlement should work in both situations.

I wonder what the other teams make of this?
It's Ferrari and there was no wish to drag the sport down.
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Re: Was Ferrari infringing on the technical directive before

Post by Greenman »

.

So Ferrari still keeps its positions in the drivers' and constructors' championships - AND the money ! (oh, and for Ferrari to give their "winnings" back)

IF I were one of the other teams I would want the money I should have received.

But, of course, this is F1 and the FIA.

.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 2

Post by j man »

pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
j man wrote:
So they've reached a private settlement, the specifics of which must remain a secret. What a wonderful way to run a sporting competition.

But basically yes, as anyone with even an ounce of common sense had already deduced, Ferrari were cheating last year.
The big question is what would the FIA have done if the 2019 setup won them the Championship! This private settlement should work in both situations.

I wonder what the other teams make of this?
It's Ferrari and there was no wish to drag the sport down.
It's not really protecting the sport, it's protecting Ferrari. What drags the sport down is corrupt dealings being made behind closed doors.

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