Carlos Jr. spent the first four seasons in F1 firmly in mid-field for Toro Rosso and Renault. In 2019 he landed a seat with Mclaren and has been a large part of their resurgence. He has been partnered with the much touted Lando Norris and currently has more than double Norris's point total.

There seem to be a lot of folks who think that Carlos is just benefiting from a much improved McLaren, which is possible, however it seems to me that Carlos has become a great contributor to elevating McLaren's results this year.

I am looking forward to seeing how much he can continue being "the best of the rest" and if he can punch through to getting a podium in 2019 or early 2020.

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Mission WinLater

He is best of the rest because he has a faster car than the other midfield cars and a fairly weak teammate.

I just can't see the improvement this year as being entirely attributable to an improved McLaren chasis. I don't think that Fernando would be doing any better than Carlos with this years McLaren.

Carlos and Lando appear to be a much better driver combination than Fernando and Stoffel.

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Mission WinLater

Wow.

Change my mind!!!

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Mission WinLater

I don't need to, you're clearly crazy so I'm just going to leave you be!

You apparently have nothing but your opinion to go on, whereas Carlos has gotten a lot of Kudos from the pundits for his performance this year.

You want to discredit the results you need some logical reason and evidence to do so.

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Mission WinLater

Sainz would be a very ideal "second driver" at a top team. He's probably top 8 on the grid - maybe top 6.

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"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
- Chanoch Nissany

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Mission WinLater

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Mission WinLater

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Carlos Sainz: Carlos Sainz’s incredible season continues with another marvellous display. Not only was he one of four cars that did not get lapped by Bottas in the race, he finished 35 seconds ahead of the nearest midfield runner. Yet another impressive display that deserved much more in terms of the Drive of the Day voting. 10/10

https://www.planetf1.com/features/japan ... r-ratings/

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Mission WinLater

Not a great start to an official thread when you're all just calling each other crazy...

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Alonso had more points after 10 rounds in the 2018 than Sainz did after 10 rounds this season.

That was with a less competitive car. There's no way Alonso wouldn't be scoring more points than Sainz with this Mclaren. If you mean he wouldn't be higher up in the championship.. That i agree with.

And a lucky run unlike Sainz's beginning of the season. Having a competitive car is not enough.

No, he literally means that Sainz would be outperforming Alonso.

Carlos Sainz always been best of the rest - change my mind.

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"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

Beaten by Hulkenberg

Matched for pace by a rookie.

Perez is the best of the rest in my opinion. Definitely compared better to Hulkenberg than Sainz.

Alonso would be maximising the results every single round and occasionally interfering with the fastest lap attempt by the final car of the front runners as he would be within a pitstop of them while running 6th or 7th.

That's only if you consider Hulk to be in the 'rest' . Hulkenberg and Sainz are, in my opinion, the best outside of the top tier category, but I can understand why Perez should be included there too. I would also consider Norris to be a driver with a lot of potential, and therefore would not worry too much about competing with the rookie.

Hulkenberg vs Perez is a very interesting comparison and is deserving of its own thread. However I think Hulkenberg had more raw pace than Checo, while Checo was better at race management and tyre deg.

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"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

Checo usually had better race pace and was more consistent. Hulkenberg was better in qualifying.

The bottom line is Perez was both better at getting the big results and a more consistent point scorer. I agree Hulkenberg probably has a bit more flat out speed but doesn't make it count when he needs to.

IMO Perez is just about the most underrated driver I've seen in nearly 30 years of watching F1. If you think what Sainz is doing this year is good then look at what Perez did in 2016 and 2017. Alas it went pretty much unnoticed and uncredited.

Indeed it's hard to really evaluate Sainz this year when he's in the 4th best car and has a rookie teammate, let's not forget that he basically got dropped by Renault last year after getting beat by the Hulk.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Umm, no.

You made the claim, therefore it is incumbent on you to prove your claim. Anyone challenging your claim does not have the burden to disprove your claim.

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Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

The claim is that Sainz is best of the rest this year. This doesn't need proof as it is a fact. There seem to be some posters who disagree, and I think they should be providing reasoning as to why that is.

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"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
- Chanoch Nissany

And Checo managed to get podiums in a car which was never known for having 1 of the best chassis' nor for having a good overall downforce package. Sainz is good but he's dominating the midfield only because McLaren (being the 4th best car) is some way ahead of the other midfield cars!

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Feel The Fourth

The stats show that Carlos has the highest point total of drivers that don't drive for Merc, Ferrari, or RBR. The burden is of proof is on anyone who wants to claim that Carlos is not "The Best of the Rest".

You need to provide evidence to show why the season point totals are not representative of what is going on in the races.

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Mission WinLater

Mostly playing Devil's Advocate, but I think there's a definite argument that McLaren has a clear gap between itself and the proper midfield. Right now I think we've got pretty much:

Mercedes / Ferrari
Red Bull
McLaren
The Rest, depending on track
Williams

With each line having a clear separation from the ones above and below. Sainz really ought to finish P7 or P8 (plus one for every car in front that has trouble) in every race if nothing goes wrong; the McLaren has a slight but noticeable edge on quali pace, and a very clear edge on race pace. He deserves a lot of credit for keeping himself out of trouble and getting the results he should be getting, but unless he beats a Red Bull he's not doing anything but finishing where the car should be.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

The position of "Best of the Rest" has swung between Racing Point, Haas, Renault, and McLaren over the past several years. McLaren may be have a slight edge on the "Rest" right now but I can't see there beign a "clear separation" at the moment.

I have certainly seen no evidence that Sainz is underperforming the car. Carlos has finished within 10 seconds of Alex Albon in the last two races who has an obviously superior car.

I also can't see the criticism that some have made of Lando Norris as a "weak team mate". He certainly does not have the car that Alex Albon has. Lando still has been getting kudos from the pundits.

Carlos stepped up his game when he went to Renault from Toro Rosso and It looks to me like he stepped up again with his move to McLaren this year. There is a reason he keeps getting better rides.

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Mission WinLater

The Mclaren/Sainz package is best of rest. That's all the championship points tell you.

Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-midfield-edge-down-to-little-stuff-at-every-race-sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed

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Feel The Fourth

Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason.

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Mission WinLater

I broadly agree with you about Sainz but that poll on this forum had Sainz winning fairly comfortably: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370&p=776198#p776198

I'll reserve judgement on Norris until midway through next season as he has been unlucky at times but I think he's being a bit overhyped.

Not against Sainz. I am happy for what he's achieving now. But just saying the big gap between Sainz's results when compared to others (in the midfield) is mainly due to the car. Sainz isn't best of the rest when compared to other midfield drivers.

This year's McLaren is a beast. It's literally good on every track. McLaren is arguably the only 4th best car on the grid. The Rest come in 'Rest of the Rest' category after McLaren.

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Feel The Fourth

That's your opinion(totally opposite of this year's drivers rating) .

And the fact that in the same post you call the McLaren "a beast" but Sainz Jr. "not the best of the rest"(who would that be by the way? Ricciardo? Hulkenberg?
Perez? Gasly? ) just prove the point I was trying to illustrate earlier.

I don't know many times I saw a heavy charger(Ricciardo, Gasly, Leclerc) later in the race with newer tyres and thought Sainz was toast only to see him keep his place.
If you have been watching races with live timing instead of FOM feed(which show nothing) , you would have noticed that Sainz is having a terrific season.

Is it better than Perez's 2016 or 2017 seasons when he finished best of the rest?

For what it's worth I had Sainz beating Norris and contrary to what you say I'm sure people were questioning if it was too soon for Norris to move up to F1, he only won 1 race in F2.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)