2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

F1 Racer wrote:It is the same as Austria and the stewards not wanting to penalise Red Bull in their home grand prix. They knew a rule had been broken by Max to win the race, hence their investigation for hours after the race, but their lack of willingness to punish the home winner with the Dutch fans in attendance for the driver too, meant they ended up not doing what they should have done and allowed the illegal win to stand.

The same here, not penalising Ferrari because it is in Italy. This really is embarrassing for the stewards, the way that they can't remain objective and impartial.
This and it's all in wake of the outlash in Canada with a steward being threatened.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
I think we need a source for that, I'm sure it's actually what Hamilton's race engineer intimated?
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KingVoid
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by KingVoid »

Alright. I’ve just finished watching the race. Here are my thoughts:

1. It would not be a bad idea for Vettel to take a sabbatical year.

2. Leclerc drove on the limit but not above it. His push on Lewis at the second chicane was rude, but the stewards set the precedent in Austria.

3. Mercedes and Ferrari looked equal on soft tyres, after that differing strategy made it difficult to read the pace in the second stint.

4. This was Ferrari’s last win of the season.

5. Verstappen with yet another mistake has lost his position as best driver of the season to Lewis.

6. Albon has a determination about him that Gasly lacked. With that said, it is still hard to judge his actual pace. Singapore will paint us a picture.

7. Renault really surprised me all weekend with their pace. I suspect that their engine is actually very good now. Their chassis is just crap.

8. Danny Ric is quietly becoming the most underrated driver on the grid. The way he’s handled Hulkenberg has been very impressive.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by tootsie323 »

KingVoid wrote:Alright. I’ve just finished watching the race. Here are my thoughts:

1. It would not be a bad idea for Vettel to take a sabbatical year.

2. Leclerc drove on the limit but not above it. His push on Lewis at the second chicane was rude, but the stewards set the precedent in Austria.

3. Mercedes and Ferrari looked equal on soft tyres, after that differing strategy made it difficult to read the pace in the second stint.

4. This was Ferrari’s last win of the season.

5. Verstappen with yet another mistake has lost his position as best driver of the season to Lewis.

6. Albon has a determination about him that Gasly lacked. With that said, it is still hard to judge his actual pace. Singapore will paint us a picture.

7. Renault really surprised me all weekend with their pace. I suspect that their engine is actually very good now. Their chassis is just crap.

8. Danny Ric is quietly becoming the most underrated driver on the grid. The way he’s handled Hulkenberg has been very impressive.
Pretty much agree on this. I feel bad for Vettel, and that in itself says a lot about his driving at the moment. I would not have complained if LeClerc had been given a penalty but, equally, am not complaining that he didn't. He drove a great race under pressure and I think that the Merc was the better car in race trim following the tyre switches.
That's twice Verstappen has been caught out at the first turn. Hopefully, with the engine penalty out of the way, he can resume normal service. Keen to see how Albon does stack up with circuits that should come a little more to Red Bull.
I think that Monza played to Renault's strengths or - more likely! - minimised the chassis flaw. Great result for them, better so that both Macca and Racing Point dropped the ball under differing circumstances. Always rated Ricciardo so am not surprised to see him getting the better of Hulkenberg.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:Alright. I’ve just finished watching the race. Here are my thoughts:

1. It would not be a bad idea for Vettel to take a sabbatical year.

2. Leclerc drove on the limit but not above it. His push on Lewis at the second chicane was rude, but the stewards set the precedent in Austria.

3. Mercedes and Ferrari looked equal on soft tyres, after that differing strategy made it difficult to read the pace in the second stint.

4. This was Ferrari’s last win of the season.

5. Verstappen with yet another mistake has lost his position as best driver of the season to Lewis.

6. Albon has a determination about him that Gasly lacked. With that said, it is still hard to judge his actual pace. Singapore will paint us a picture.

7. Renault really surprised me all weekend with their pace. I suspect that their engine is actually very good now. Their chassis is just crap.

8. Danny Ric is quietly becoming the most underrated driver on the grid. The way he’s handled Hulkenberg has been very impressive.
1. I feel really sorry for him.

2. He actually got a warning.

3. I wouldn't disagree.

4. Probably.

5. Given recent posts, big respect. :thumbup:

6. Agree.

7. I think they have an inferior version of the Ferrari, good on straights but poor around corners.

8. Not by me.
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Option or Prime
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
I think we need a source for that, I'm sure it's actually what Hamilton's race engineer intimated?
On the C4 coverage it was stated that there was an agreement between CL and SV that was not adhered to. The tactic was not to deny the field a final run but to deny Vettel a final run. Just happened that everyone else was involved.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Option or Prime »

The explanation of Vettel's time being allowed was a technical one, the rules say the contact patch is what defines being of track, however there was a contradictory covering note that does not mention contact but simply that the tyre has to be in contact with the circuit. Since the sidewall bulges out it was deemed that there was part of the tyre still on the track.

(Explanation from Autosport)

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
I think we need a source for that, I'm sure it's actually what Hamilton's race engineer intimated?
On the C4 coverage it was stated that there was an agreement between CL and SV that was not adhered to. The tactic was not to deny the field a final run but to deny Vettel a final run. Just happened that everyone else was involved.
Yes I know that just questioning what was said about Hamilton saying that Leclerc was protecting his pole position.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:The explanation of Vettel's time being allowed was a technical one, the rules say the contact patch is what defines being of track, however there was a contradictory covering note that does not mention contact but simply that the tyre has to be in contact with the circuit. Since the sidewall bulges out it was deemed that there was part of the tyre still on the track.

(Explanation from Autosport)
Well what does it look like to you?

https://i.imgur.com/WAyPrwK.png
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FormulaFun
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by FormulaFun »

Wow, what are you doing? don't post evidence here please - people might have to change their opinion

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

FormulaFun wrote:Wow, what are you doing? don't post evidence here please - people might have to change their opinion
Indeed so they deemed that part of the tyre that wasn't in contact with the track was in contact with the track. :)
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KingVoid
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alright. I’ve just finished watching the race. Here are my thoughts:

1. It would not be a bad idea for Vettel to take a sabbatical year.

2. Leclerc drove on the limit but not above it. His push on Lewis at the second chicane was rude, but the stewards set the precedent in Austria.

3. Mercedes and Ferrari looked equal on soft tyres, after that differing strategy made it difficult to read the pace in the second stint.

4. This was Ferrari’s last win of the season.

5. Verstappen with yet another mistake has lost his position as best driver of the season to Lewis.

6. Albon has a determination about him that Gasly lacked. With that said, it is still hard to judge his actual pace. Singapore will paint us a picture.

7. Renault really surprised me all weekend with their pace. I suspect that their engine is actually very good now. Their chassis is just crap.

8. Danny Ric is quietly becoming the most underrated driver on the grid. The way he’s handled Hulkenberg has been very impressive.
8. Not by me.
Would you agree with the sentiment that Ricciardo is the third best driver on the grid?

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alright. I’ve just finished watching the race. Here are my thoughts:

1. It would not be a bad idea for Vettel to take a sabbatical year.

2. Leclerc drove on the limit but not above it. His push on Lewis at the second chicane was rude, but the stewards set the precedent in Austria.

3. Mercedes and Ferrari looked equal on soft tyres, after that differing strategy made it difficult to read the pace in the second stint.

4. This was Ferrari’s last win of the season.

5. Verstappen with yet another mistake has lost his position as best driver of the season to Lewis.

6. Albon has a determination about him that Gasly lacked. With that said, it is still hard to judge his actual pace. Singapore will paint us a picture.

7. Renault really surprised me all weekend with their pace. I suspect that their engine is actually very good now. Their chassis is just crap.

8. Danny Ric is quietly becoming the most underrated driver on the grid. The way he’s handled Hulkenberg has been very impressive.
8. Not by me.
Would you agree with the sentiment that Ricciardo is the third best driver on the grid?
Yes I just said that in another thread although Leclerc is hot on his heels.
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Option or Prime
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Wow, what are you doing? don't post evidence here please - people might have to change their opinion
Indeed so they deemed that part of the tyre that wasn't in contact with the track was in contact with the track. :)
On the contact argument that shows he was off circuit, correct.

But the note is basically saying that any part of the tyre, i.e. the bulge of the sidewall counts as the tyre. That makes the tyre wider than the contact patch. That is their technical argument.

Read the full article here:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14585 ... ts-penalty

Fact is it didn't make the slightest difference as Vettel's race imploded. My opinion is that no tolerance track limits should apply but you have to doubt that even that level of proof might not be policed properly and probably be ignored!

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
I think we need a source for that, I'm sure it's actually what Hamilton's race engineer intimated?
It's from the team radio.
Hamilton
Lewis Hamilton suspected the hold-up had been Ferrari’s game plan all along. He also had a near miss with Hulkenberg.

Hamilton: How pushed for time are we?
To Hamilton: We are tight on time, We are tight.
To Hamilton: Looks like Hulk’s backing everyone up. We are tight.
To Hamilton: Cut-off’s on us.
To Hamilton: Hamilton has to back off as Hulkenberg pulls out from behind Sainz to follow the Ferraris.
If you can move up the field that’ll be good.
Hamilton: I’m trying.
To Hamilton: So we are behind schedule.
To Hamilton: He takes the chequered flag.
OK Lewis so that is it. Leclerc, Vettel missed the flag. Only Sainz has got the run.
Hamilton: They kept us all behind so we couldn’t get a lap.

To Hamilton: OK Lewis that still stands so P2. Valtteri P3.
To Hamilton: And you’ll be going to the grid.
To Hamilton: So to the grid.
Hamilton: That’s an interesting tactic to keep pole position. You just don’t need to do the lap.
To Hamilton: Yeah copy Lewis. Not the first time, mate.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Covalent »

Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
I'm certainly not. The Ferraris didn't cause it.
Yeah that's what I thought as well.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
I think we need a source for that, I'm sure it's actually what Hamilton's race engineer intimated?
On the C4 coverage it was stated that there was an agreement between CL and SV that was not adhered to. The tactic was not to deny the field a final run but to deny Vettel a final run. Just happened that everyone else was involved.
Yes I know that just questioning what was said about Hamilton saying that Leclerc was protecting his pole position.
Yes, Vettel said it after qually and after the race. I did find it a bit strange that they didnt go for it at the time as the Mercs were not in a position to benefit from the Ferraris, and those that were behind were not on Ferrari's radar. Bit like Marquez ignoring the lesser lights in MotoGP who follow him, but will pull out of the lap if its a Dovi or Rossi.

Still at least Seb knows where he stands now within the Ferrari pecking order.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:Alright. I’ve just finished watching the race. Here are my thoughts:

1. It would not be a bad idea for Vettel to take a sabbatical year.

2. Leclerc drove on the limit but not above it. His push on Lewis at the second chicane was rude, but the stewards set the precedent in Austria.

3. Mercedes and Ferrari looked equal on soft tyres, after that differing strategy made it difficult to read the pace in the second stint.

4. This was Ferrari’s last win of the season.

5. Verstappen with yet another mistake has lost his position as best driver of the season to Lewis.

6. Albon has a determination about him that Gasly lacked. With that said, it is still hard to judge his actual pace. Singapore will paint us a picture.

7. Renault really surprised me all weekend with their pace. I suspect that their engine is actually very good now. Their chassis is just crap.

8. Danny Ric is quietly becoming the most underrated driver on the grid. The way he’s handled Hulkenberg has been very impressive.
8. Not by me.
Would you agree with the sentiment that Ricciardo is the third best driver on the grid?
Not sure I would. His start to this year was dreadful. So was Hulkenberg and yet given both their mistakes, theere wasn't that much difference between them with their results. Ricciardo retired in Australia, both were terrible in Baku with Ricciardo making pretty much the most stupid mistake of any driver this season. Even in france, I think he got more penalty points in that race than any other driver this season too. Overall, he season really hasn't been that good. But he's certainly looking better now.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Option or Prime »

So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Jezza13 »

Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Asphalt_World »

Covalent wrote:I haven't read the entire thread but are we agreeing with Lewis that it was Leclerc that was the reason for the quali farce as he was trying to protect his pole?
Only if Ferrari have more than two cars and paint some of the others to look like other team's cars and put Leclerc in one of them.
Last edited by Asphalt_World on Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1_Ernie »

shoot999 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
If he's already agreed to do it?

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1_Ernie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
If he's already agreed to do it?
How often in F1 have we seen a group of cars go so slow because they dont want to be the first car as the tow is so strong. What does Vettel expect, go on Leclerc, be the first car, drag everyone along and they all make the clock, your be the only car without a tow and most likely lose pole and potentially start 4th. Leclerc would have been absolutely crazy.
For me it's totally different if it's a normal qualifying session and Leclerc point blank refuses to give a tow, not really sure what Leclerc was meant to do on those second runs, it was chaos.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
If he's already agreed to do it?
How often in F1 have we seen a group of cars go so slow because they dont want to be the first car as the tow is so strong. What does Vettel expect, go on Leclerc, be the first car, drag everyone along and they all make the clock, your be the only car without a tow and most likely lose pole and potentially start 4th. Leclerc would have been absolutely crazy.
For me it's totally different if it's a normal qualifying session and Leclerc point blank refuses to give a tow, not really sure what Leclerc was meant to do on those second runs, it was chaos.
Did Vettel do it for Leclerc on the first run?

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:So Vettel's grievance with Leclerc was that it had been agreed that Leclerc would give him a tow in order to get a better qualification time that Leclerc didn't deliver. A combination of Hulkenberg, Stroll and Sainz causing the missed qualification.
Vettel would have been super stressed as he would have been unsure at that time if he as going to lose his time due to the 'off track' incident. Seems to me there is more in team rivalry in Ferrari than first suspected.
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
If he's already agreed to do it?
How often in F1 have we seen a group of cars go so slow because they dont want to be the first car as the tow is so strong. What does Vettel expect, go on Leclerc, be the first car, drag everyone along and they all make the clock, your be the only car without a tow and most likely lose pole and potentially start 4th. Leclerc would have been absolutely crazy.
For me it's totally different if it's a normal qualifying session and Leclerc point blank refuses to give a tow, not really sure what Leclerc was meant to do on those second runs, it was chaos.
So if you agreed something with your boss and work colleagues and then changed your mind, you wouldn't tell them, you would just let them down.

Nice.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1_Ernie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote: Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
If he's already agreed to do it?
How often in F1 have we seen a group of cars go so slow because they dont want to be the first car as the tow is so strong. What does Vettel expect, go on Leclerc, be the first car, drag everyone along and they all make the clock, your be the only car without a tow and most likely lose pole and potentially start 4th. Leclerc would have been absolutely crazy.
For me it's totally different if it's a normal qualifying session and Leclerc point blank refuses to give a tow, not really sure what Leclerc was meant to do on those second runs, it was chaos.
Did Vettel do it for Leclerc on the first run?
Yes, did what happen in the second run happen in the first run? Did all the cars have a go slow race? Leclerc was actually directly ahead of Vettel across the start finish line and would have given Vettel the tow on his second run? Who's fault was it that one car could make a final run? Leclerc? Maybe Hamilton was right.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1_Ernie »

shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Yes. I think that was the point Vettel was making when he shot to the front of the queue and then slowed again. Basically saying to Leclerc 'this is what you are supposed to be doing'.

In a perverse way this could be jolt that Vettel needs. He doesn't have to respect his teammate out on track anymore.

Edit: Seems Leclerc hasn't denied he ignored the agreement, but his excuse was that he thought Mercedes might get a tow off him.
I dont blame Leclerc either, why would pole position man want to be the leading car on their second runs giving his teammate a tow which can be anything upto 7 tenths advantage. If it was a normal quali then I can see why Vettel would be annoyed but that ended up being one of the biggest jokes in F1's history.
If he's already agreed to do it?
How often in F1 have we seen a group of cars go so slow because they dont want to be the first car as the tow is so strong. What does Vettel expect, go on Leclerc, be the first car, drag everyone along and they all make the clock, your be the only car without a tow and most likely lose pole and potentially start 4th. Leclerc would have been absolutely crazy.
For me it's totally different if it's a normal qualifying session and Leclerc point blank refuses to give a tow, not really sure what Leclerc was meant to do on those second runs, it was chaos.
So if you agreed something with your boss and work colleagues and then changed your mind, you wouldn't tell them, you would just let them down.

Nice.
The second runs didn't happen, so how do you know if Leclerc gave Vettel the tow? He was in front of Vettel when the laps started.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by tootsie323 »

That out lap for the entire field was a fiasco. Really not sure that one can point the finger at any specific driver.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Exediron »

tootsie323 wrote:That out lap for the entire field was a fiasco. Really not sure that one can point the finger at any specific driver.
I point the finger at Hulk, and then Stroll. They were leading, and drove at a pace too slow for anyone to set a lap. The only drivers who did set a lap are the ones who overtook them.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by JN23 »

Exediron wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:That out lap for the entire field was a fiasco. Really not sure that one can point the finger at any specific driver.
I point the finger at Hulk, and then Stroll. They were leading, and drove at a pace too slow for anyone to set a lap. The only drivers who did set a lap are the ones who overtook them.
Could you then not ask the question why didn't the other drivers overtake them?

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Exediron »

JN23 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:That out lap for the entire field was a fiasco. Really not sure that one can point the finger at any specific driver.
I point the finger at Hulk, and then Stroll. They were leading, and drove at a pace too slow for anyone to set a lap. The only drivers who did set a lap are the ones who overtook them.
Could you then not ask the question why didn't the other drivers overtake them?
I remember at one point two cars going side by side through (I think) Curve Grande and nobody else being able to.

But yes, you can ask that question - of everyone. If Lewis feels the Ferraris blocked his outlap, why didn't he pass them? Why didn't Albon pass everyone? Why was Sainz the only one who seemed aware that everyone was going to time out?
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

JN23 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:That out lap for the entire field was a fiasco. Really not sure that one can point the finger at any specific driver.
I point the finger at Hulk, and then Stroll. They were leading, and drove at a pace too slow for anyone to set a lap. The only drivers who did set a lap are the ones who overtook them.
Could you then not ask the question why didn't the other drivers overtake them?
Vettel did, but Leclerc stayed behind Vettel rather than take his place ahead of Vettel. Then Leclerc dropped behind the McLaren for whatever reason. By the time Leclerc got round to taking the lead at the Parabolica, it was to late both in time and position on the track to start the tow. The Ferrari pair were not affected by the slow pack in the middle of the lap. They were leading at that point. If anything all Vettel was guilty of was being naive in expecting Leclerc to keep to the agreement on towing.

Transmissions show Leclerc was instructed to push three time and also instructed to overtake Vettel, but chose to fall behind Sainz instead.

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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1_Ernie »

I blame Bottas myself, Hamilton's turn to run 2nd in the 2nd runs and get the tow from Bottas.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1_Ernie »

shoot999 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:That out lap for the entire field was a fiasco. Really not sure that one can point the finger at any specific driver.
I point the finger at Hulk, and then Stroll. They were leading, and drove at a pace too slow for anyone to set a lap. The only drivers who did set a lap are the ones who overtook them.
Could you then not ask the question why didn't the other drivers overtake them?
Vettel did, but Leclerc stayed behind Vettel rather than take his place ahead of Vettel. Then Leclerc dropped behind the McLaren for whatever reason. By the time Leclerc got round to taking the lead at the Parabolica, it was to late both in time and position on the track to start the tow. The Ferrari pair were not affected by the slow pack in the middle of the lap. They were leading at that point. If anything all Vettel was guilty of was being naive in expecting Leclerc to keep to the agreement on towing.

Transmissions show Leclerc was instructed to push three time and also instructed to overtake Vettel, but chose to fall behind Sainz instead.
The reason Leclerc stays behind Sainz is because he doesnt want to be the only driver without a tow. He doesnt get the tow he probably starts 4th and doesnt win the race. Do you really expect the pole man to lead the cars though the second runs just to suit Vettel? I'm actually glad Leclerc showed that side to him, shows he is a top driver, always thinking and is ruthless, no other top driver would do the same.

When you look at the start/finish line Leclerc and Vettel are lined up quite well, it's the time which was obviously the problem. It's unique circumstances anyway, when have we ever seen 1 car take part in the 2nd runs in Q3?
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:I blame Bottas myself, Hamilton's turn to run 2nd in the 2nd runs and get the tow from Bottas.
Both Bottas and Leclerc was supposed to return the favour of a tow for their teammates but obviously were not prepared to do that unless they also got a tow off someone else, at the end of the day they didn't want their teammates to out qualify them.

At tracks were tows are so important in future I wouldn't be too happy about being the first one to give a tow to a teammate knowing the possibilities of the favour not being returned, I would say Leclerc in particular totally stitched Vettel up, he was on pole, where's the incentive to sacrifice that?
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:I blame Bottas myself, Hamilton's turn to run 2nd in the 2nd runs and get the tow from Bottas.
Both Bottas and Leclerc was supposed to return the favour of a tow for their teammates but obviously were not prepared to do that unless they also got a tow off someone else, at the end of the day they didn't want their teammates to out qualify them.

At tracks were tows are so important in future I wouldn't be too happy about being the first one to give a tow to a teammate knowing the possibilities of the favour not being returned, I would say Leclerc in particular totally stitched Vettel up, he was on pole, where's the incentive to sacrifice that?
I think alternating by runs just doesn't make sense for that reason. If they're going to alternate the tow it really needs to be by weekend, not by run. Whoever gets the tow on the last run in Q3 (assuming they actually do) gets much more benefit from it than whoever gets it for the first run. I can see why Leclerc/Bottas weren't too happy with the idea of getting a tow for an unimportant lap and then having to turn around and give their teammate the benefit for the lap that actually matters.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:I blame Bottas myself, Hamilton's turn to run 2nd in the 2nd runs and get the tow from Bottas.
Both Bottas and Leclerc was supposed to return the favour of a tow for their teammates but obviously were not prepared to do that unless they also got a tow off someone else, at the end of the day they didn't want their teammates to out qualify them.

At tracks were tows are so important in future I wouldn't be too happy about being the first one to give a tow to a teammate knowing the possibilities of the favour not being returned, I would say Leclerc in particular totally stitched Vettel up, he was on pole, where's the incentive to sacrifice that?
I think alternating by runs just doesn't make sense for that reason. If they're going to alternate the tow it really needs to be by weekend, not by run. Whoever gets the tow on the last run in Q3 (assuming they actually do) gets much more benefit from it than whoever gets it for the first run. I can see why Leclerc/Bottas weren't too happy with the idea of getting a tow for an unimportant lap and then having to turn around and give their teammate the benefit for the lap that actually matters.
It wouldn't be a problem if it was done right, typically if it's upon you to give your teammate a tow and then that's what you do, it's not all bets are off if I can't get a tow myself.
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by kleefton »

I think with all the craziness that happened in Q3 it is comical that people are complaining about not getting their tow. Surely in those circumstances the focus should have been on getting a lap in, but yet you've got Vettel complaining about prior arrangements for a tow. I had no issue with what Leclerc did. Vettel complaining just was so unnecessary and it made him look even more desperate than he actually seems to be.

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