pokerman wrote: F1 MERCENARY wrote: Johnson wrote: Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.
He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.
I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.
I disagree, in 2013 he hadn't had a bad year yet.
He was a young driver who was very quick but prone to a lot of accidents and errors, 2007-2010. Accidents are forgiveable for young drivers. 2011-2013 he had ironed out the errors and gone up a level and could have been one of the greatest of all time. He was still in contention.
But, the question mark was, how good was Webber, how will he do against other drivers. His performance since have him as a very good driver but not an all time great and the errors came back when the pressure was on.
Up until 2014, he would have been in my top 10. Now I would say he is about top 20-25 but he could still end up top 15 ish if he has another good 4-5 years but my gut feeling is the coming years will cement him as more top 25 material.
But that's just it… The pressure is way up for several reasons, but mostly because Ferrari is in a car that's ever so slightly inferior to the Mercedes and he's trying everything and then some to make up for the deficit and in doing so, he's constantly looking for the ultimate limit and ways to exceed it, and in doing so he's lost it. One cannot fault him for that. that is precisely what ALL drivers should be trying to do in order to claw back as much performance to those whom have a faster package. I'd rather see him go balls to the wall and losing it than playing it safe to keep from going off-track or spinning because then I know he's giving everything.
I've done that very thing in karts… trying to keep up with guys that were simply so dialed in that I couldn't reel them in so I looked to copy their lines and braking points and THEN in looking to other areas where I could perhaps gain a 10th or even 100th, I ended up just post the limit and either spam or had to veer off the prime line and into the marbles or off-track and ended up losing out. That's just the nature of the beast. Leclerc is still being hyped as the great white hope (some of you older guys might get the reference) yet Vettel is beating him thus far. Yes the team made a couple of calls that cost Leclerc, but if they hadn't intervened the difference would be marginal at best and they'd be about equal. So if Leclerc is so great than so too must be Vettel. I find Vettel to be in the elite club and Leclerc is on a similar level.
That's simply not true, last year Hamilton was having to pull out all of the stops against a better Ferrari and was leading inspite of that because of mistakes made by Vettel and poor wet driving.
I disagree. Initially the Ferrari was the best car and Vettel did well enough. Not perfect, but solid. Then Mercedes clawed their way back to close the gap and then surpass the Ferrari and Vettel found himself having to fight with a car that was at a disadvantage.
The Qualifying battle pretty much sums it up with Hamilton beating Vettel 14 times and Vettel besting Hamilton 7 times, and 7 times he was out qualified by both Mercs. So that is telling in that in order to challenge the Silver Arrows, Vettel had to push to the limit having started behind, and stay there for complete race distances, and had to exceed the limit to find more speed. Twice he mucked it up on his own, but I wouldn't say he was terrible, not by a country mile. This year the Ferrari has been better only on a select few circuits and the Mercedes at most with the Red Bull in Verstappen's hands being a serious contender a couple of times. What no one has talked about in details as of yet (at least that I've seen) is that Red Bull's extreme rake setup, which is being copied now, only not to the same extreme, is in effect behaving much like ground effects and they're figuring out how to plant the car more solidly because of it. Coupled with their shorter wheelbase, the Red Bull can corner better and more quickly than everyone else which is how and why they dominate in certain sectors and tracks. As well, the Honda engine is also pretty damn fast this year and it still sounds incredible… Clearly the best sounding engine in F1.
The Ferrari this year slots in between the Mercs and the Red Bulls but it's usually not that far off in terms of pace. Leclerc made a mistake that cost him big points once, and Ferrari "strategies" cost him big time and Vettel as well to a lesser degree.