Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

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F1 Racer
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Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by F1 Racer »

There seems to be a lot of plaudits for Norris beating Sainz, particularly if he can keep it up. However do we know with any certainty that Sainz is a good yardstick?

Off the top of my head, Max beat him and Hulk beat him, Norris you can easily see beating him and he managed to beat Kyvat who we know is bad so that doesn't count. So is he not wasting a seat at the moment with just his name keeping him in?

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Johnson
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by Johnson »

Sainz was very close to Verstappen.

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KingVoid
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:Sainz was very close to Verstappen.
Verstappen was 17, Sainz was 20. Max also skipped at least 4 years of junior categories.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:Sainz was very close to Verstappen.
Verstappen was 17, Sainz was 20. Max also skipped at least 4 years of junior categories.
Yes that's not really worth comparing, Sainz is a solid driver but probably got too much credit for beating Kvyat.
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Blinky McSquinty
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Lando Norris is a Formula One rookie by any yardstick. Yet on his first qualifying he earns 8th. This is not about Sainz being beaten or not up to par, it is about Lando Norris coming in red-hot and doing an excellent job.
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by sandman1347 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Lando Norris is a Formula One rookie by any yardstick. Yet on his first qualifying he earns 8th. This is not about Sainz being beaten or not up to par, it is about Lando Norris coming in red-hot and doing an excellent job.
Not to mention the fact that Sainz was simply unlucky to get balked on his last lap in Q1 by Kubica's puncture. Let's all put the pitchforks away please.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Norris didn't just beat Sainz.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by F1 Racer »

Sainz is under huge pressure imo, and being baulked at the end just means that he should have put in a more competitive banker lap etc.

It's results that matter most, not bad luck stories.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by j man »

I'll agree that Sainz's reputation has taken a hit after being beaten by Hulkenberg over a season (though I still think Hulkenberg is highly underrated, I think he'll prove that this season). But to say he's wasting a seat, that's a bit much. Compared to the rest of the F1 grid I'd rank him somewhere around the middle, he's shown enough consistency and the occasional strong result to prove that he belongs in F1 but I don't think he'll ever be anything more than a solid pair of hands in the midfield.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by dpastern »

To be fair to Sainz, Hulkenberg is very, very, very fast. In the right car, he could be WDC. Hulk is also far more experienced than Sainz.

I don't think this speaks badly of Sainz, I think it really highlights how underrated the Hulk is!

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Sainz basically matched Hulk in terms of performance.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by F1 Racer »

j man wrote:I'll agree that Sainz's reputation has taken a hit after being beaten by Hulkenberg over a season (though I still think Hulkenberg is highly underrated, I think he'll prove that this season). But to say he's wasting a seat, that's a bit much. Compared to the rest of the F1 grid I'd rank him somewhere around the middle, he's shown enough consistency and the occasional strong result to prove that he belongs in F1 but I don't think he'll ever be anything more than a solid pair of hands in the midfield.
A solid pair of hands in the midfield is pretty much wasting a seat and blocking potential talent coming through. People have criticised Kimi for hanging around and being a safe pair of hands in the midfield, the same rationale applies to Sainz surely?

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by Lotus49 »

F1 Racer wrote:Sainz is under huge pressure imo, and being baulked at the end just means that he should have put in a more competitive banker lap etc.

It's results that matter most, not bad luck stories.
He did put in a competitive banker time, the midfield is just so close and track evolution was as such that it soon was surpassed.

Nah context matters still.
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by Lotus49 »

F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:I'll agree that Sainz's reputation has taken a hit after being beaten by Hulkenberg over a season (though I still think Hulkenberg is highly underrated, I think he'll prove that this season). But to say he's wasting a seat, that's a bit much. Compared to the rest of the F1 grid I'd rank him somewhere around the middle, he's shown enough consistency and the occasional strong result to prove that he belongs in F1 but I don't think he'll ever be anything more than a solid pair of hands in the midfield.
A solid pair of hands in the midfield is pretty much wasting a seat and blocking potential talent coming through. People have criticised Kimi for hanging around and being a safe pair of hands in the midfield, the same rationale applies to Sainz surely?
That Kimi rationale will apply when he has 3 or 4 years in a top car and does nothing with it and then returns to the midfield. While he's continually swapping teams in the tight midfield to begin with and going against talented drivers and holding his own against them then he'll get the chances he's getting.

Hopefully he'll be with McLaren for a few seasons so he can get some consistency in his surroundings and we can see what he's made of. Its far too early to write him off.
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by j man »

F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:I'll agree that Sainz's reputation has taken a hit after being beaten by Hulkenberg over a season (though I still think Hulkenberg is highly underrated, I think he'll prove that this season). But to say he's wasting a seat, that's a bit much. Compared to the rest of the F1 grid I'd rank him somewhere around the middle, he's shown enough consistency and the occasional strong result to prove that he belongs in F1 but I don't think he'll ever be anything more than a solid pair of hands in the midfield.
A solid pair of hands in the midfield is pretty much wasting a seat and blocking potential talent coming through. People have criticised Kimi for hanging around and being a safe pair of hands in the midfield, the same rationale applies to Sainz surely?
I disagree. There's nothing wrong with being a safe pair of hands, it's exactly what these midfield teams need. Not everyone can be above average. Regarding Kimi, I think most people objected to him staying on because he's not looked particularly motivated or bothered for these past few years, and people assumed he was only hanging around to collect his paycheck.

If you want to highlight drivers who might be blocking race seats, I think there are multiple better candidates than Sainz. Stroll, Kvyat and the Haas drivers for instance, who I would all rate below him. And what potential talents are waiting in in the wings who didn't get their chance this year? Only Ocon that I can think of, and I'm sure someone would have picked him up if it weren't for his Mercedes association.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:I'll agree that Sainz's reputation has taken a hit after being beaten by Hulkenberg over a season (though I still think Hulkenberg is highly underrated, I think he'll prove that this season). But to say he's wasting a seat, that's a bit much. Compared to the rest of the F1 grid I'd rank him somewhere around the middle, he's shown enough consistency and the occasional strong result to prove that he belongs in F1 but I don't think he'll ever be anything more than a solid pair of hands in the midfield.
A solid pair of hands in the midfield is pretty much wasting a seat and blocking potential talent coming through. People have criticised Kimi for hanging around and being a safe pair of hands in the midfield, the same rationale applies to Sainz surely?
Who is he blocking?

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:Sainz is under huge pressure imo, and being baulked at the end just means that he should have put in a more competitive banker lap etc.

It's results that matter most, not bad luck stories.
He's under less pressure than most of the midfield. He has a two year contract.

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by pokerman »

I've just looked at the timing sheets, Norris did 3 runs in Q1 to get through to Q2 which I also heard Norris say in an interview, Sainz was looking to get through to Q2 on only 2 runs, his second run was ruined by Kubica's crash, Norris didn't exactly beat Sainz.
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:I've just looked at the timing sheets, Norris did 3 runs in Q1 to get through to Q2 which I also heard Norris say in an interview, Sainz was looking to get through to Q2 on only 2 runs, his second run was ruined by Kubica's crash, Norris didn't exactly beat Sainz.
Well he did. Norris put in the time and Sainz didn't

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I've just looked at the timing sheets, Norris did 3 runs in Q1 to get through to Q2 which I also heard Norris say in an interview, Sainz was looking to get through to Q2 on only 2 runs, his second run was ruined by Kubica's crash, Norris didn't exactly beat Sainz.
Well he did. Norris put in the time and Sainz didn't
He didn't beat him on merit so I wouldn't be using it as a template for things to come, I think the fact that Norris needed 3 sets of tyres to get out of Q1 whilst Sainz was only going to need 2 sets of tyres says a lot, Sainz will not always be hampered in qualifying.
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I've just looked at the timing sheets, Norris did 3 runs in Q1 to get through to Q2 which I also heard Norris say in an interview, Sainz was looking to get through to Q2 on only 2 runs, his second run was ruined by Kubica's crash, Norris didn't exactly beat Sainz.
Well he did. Norris put in the time and Sainz didn't
He didn't beat him on merit so I wouldn't be using it as a template for things to come, I think the fact that Norris needed 3 sets of tyres to get out of Q1 whilst Sainz was only going to need 2 sets of tyres says a lot, Sainz will not always be hampered in qualifying.
But you're assuming Sainz would have been able to put a good time in? And Norris still beat a lot of other drivers who had cars with seemingly near identical pace. No way of knowing what Sainz would have done but we do know Norris did a good job,

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I've just looked at the timing sheets, Norris did 3 runs in Q1 to get through to Q2 which I also heard Norris say in an interview, Sainz was looking to get through to Q2 on only 2 runs, his second run was ruined by Kubica's crash, Norris didn't exactly beat Sainz.
Well he did. Norris put in the time and Sainz didn't
He didn't beat him on merit so I wouldn't be using it as a template for things to come, I think the fact that Norris needed 3 sets of tyres to get out of Q1 whilst Sainz was only going to need 2 sets of tyres says a lot, Sainz will not always be hampered in qualifying.
But you're assuming Sainz would have been able to put a good time in? And Norris still beat a lot of other drivers who had cars with seemingly near identical pace. No way of knowing what Sainz would have done but we do know Norris did a good job,
Yes I'm just saying the gap would have been closer, the gap we get to see is not the true gap, Sainz was on course to match Norris in Q1 before Kubica had his crash.
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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:I've just looked at the timing sheets, Norris did 3 runs in Q1 to get through to Q2 which I also heard Norris say in an interview, Sainz was looking to get through to Q2 on only 2 runs, his second run was ruined by Kubica's crash, Norris didn't exactly beat Sainz.
Well he did. Norris put in the time and Sainz didn't
He didn't beat him on merit so I wouldn't be using it as a template for things to come, I think the fact that Norris needed 3 sets of tyres to get out of Q1 whilst Sainz was only going to need 2 sets of tyres says a lot, Sainz will not always be hampered in qualifying.
But you're assuming Sainz would have been able to put a good time in? And Norris still beat a lot of other drivers who had cars with seemingly near identical pace. No way of knowing what Sainz would have done but we do know Norris did a good job,
Yes I'm just saying the gap would have been closer, the gap we get to see is not the true gap, Sainz was on course to match Norris in Q1 before Kubica had his crash.
Fair enough

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by FormulaFun »

You guys are just too much sometimes - it's 1 race for god sake why are you drawing conclusions already??

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by Battle Far »

FormulaFun wrote:You guys are just too much sometimes - it's 1 race for god sake why are you drawing conclusions already??
Thank Goodness for some sanity

I expected a dozen threads of humble pie apologies :uhoh: from all the Stroll bashers, after all he 'crushed' Perez who we all know has beaten all his team mates (not)...

No one who gets to race in F1 is a numpty, whatever those who are at their closest to an F1 car when their fingers are on the TV screen say

Norris stood out in qualifying, shame he couldn't get past Giovanazzi when he needed to

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Re: Who has Sainz ever beaten? Just Kyvat?

Post by pokerman »

Battle Far wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:You guys are just too much sometimes - it's 1 race for god sake why are you drawing conclusions already??
Thank Goodness for some sanity

I expected a dozen threads of humble pie apologies :uhoh: from all the Stroll bashers, after all he 'crushed' Perez who we all know has beaten all his team mates (not)...

No one who gets to race in F1 is a numpty, whatever those who are at their closest to an F1 car when their fingers are on the TV screen say

Norris stood out in qualifying, shame he couldn't get past Giovanazzi when he needed to
From agreeing that it's just one race people have to apologise about Stroll because he beat Perez with what I can see from being on a better strategy that allowed him to clear a load of cars whilst Perez, who had been running in front of Stroll before his pit stop, got stuck behind them and the Giovinazzi train.
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