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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:25 pm 
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So Leclerc is youngest Ferrari driver in my memory since I started watching F1. Finally Ferrari giving timely seat to a promising young driver.
As much as it would be sad to see Kimi leave specially after seeing him get his speed back to some extent in last few races, it is time. It was long time coming and overall the right decision for everyone involved.
Would be great to see a young challenger within a team for Vettel to deal with going forward.I really hope these guys push each other. Something, we havent seen at Ferrari for a long time.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:34 pm 
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I wonder if leclerc will out perform vettel like Riccardo did and force him out. Very interesting, potential to be the most interesting move since ham to merc, if not more so


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
The comparison to Max is an interesting one. I reckon Leclerc has the much clearer path out of the two of them to be the next non Lewis/Seb WDC. Getting into that Ferrari this quickly has given him the jump on Verstappen for now.

It's the youngest we've seen a driver in a WDC-capable car in the history of F1 (assuming the 2019 car is WDC-capable). He'll be a few months younger than Vettel was in 2009 and several months younger than Hamilton was in 2007. He is winning in the game of F1. Being fast and having great racecraft are all well and good but signing for a top team is the single most important thing a driver needs to achieve if he wants to be great.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:04 pm 
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If the rumour that the Kimi to Sauber deal was negotiated totally independently of Ferrari is true then that has some ramifications for Sauber's future relationship with Ferrari.

What does this mean for the future of Giovanazzi? If both Sauber and Haas are determined to do things their own way with the driver lineup, then perhaps Ferrari might not be so keen to supply engines in future.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:17 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
If the rumour that the Kimi to Sauber deal was negotiated totally independently of Ferrari is true then that has some ramifications for Sauber's future relationship with Ferrari.

What does this mean for the future of Giovanazzi? If both Sauber and Haas are determined to do things their own way with the driver lineup, then perhaps Ferrari might not be so keen to supply engines in future.


By all accounts Ferrari get to chose one of Sauber's drivers as part of the Alfa Romeo sponsorship deal, so if Kimi and Sauber negotiated this without any involvement from Ferrari, that would actually be better for Giovinazzi. It would mean Ferrari still have that option, and would basically guarantee a Raikkonen/Giovinazzi line-up at Sauber next year (which would be ideal for Ferrari as they could indirectly compare Giovinazzi to Seb by seeing how he performs relative to Raikkonen).

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:29 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I don't think that Leclerc will so easily get faster than Seb. The next 2 years Vettel will dominate, Leclerc will develop. I foresee no fireworks.

I can't think of a single example of a truly great driver who needed 2 years to "develop" before their speed and ability became apparent. Literally not even one example. If Vettel is dominating Leclerc in year 2, that will mean that Leclerc is simply not WDC material.

I give you an example. Nigel Mansell. He got cooked by Elio de Angelis during their years in Lotus, specially in 1984, their last year. How about Nico Rosberg, too?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
If the rumour that the Kimi to Sauber deal was negotiated totally independently of Ferrari is true then that has some ramifications for Sauber's future relationship with Ferrari.

What does this mean for the future of Giovanazzi? If both Sauber and Haas are determined to do things their own way with the driver lineup, then perhaps Ferrari might not be so keen to supply engines in future.


By all accounts Ferrari get to chose one of Sauber's drivers as part of the Alfa Romeo sponsorship deal, so if Kimi and Sauber negotiated this without any involvement from Ferrari, that would actually be better for Giovinazzi. It would mean Ferrari still have that option, and would basically guarantee a Raikkonen/Giovinazzi line-up at Sauber next year (which would be ideal for Ferrari as they could indirectly compare Giovinazzi to Seb by seeing how he performs relative to Raikkonen).

If it's true that Kimi negotiated this independently of Ferrari, then that may tie in with rumours around the time he joined Lotus where he was apparently in negotiations to own a stake in the Williams team. It would seem he has an ambition to be a race team (part) owner


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I don't think that Leclerc will so easily get faster than Seb. The next 2 years Vettel will dominate, Leclerc will develop. I foresee no fireworks.

I can't think of a single example of a truly great driver who needed 2 years to "develop" before their speed and ability became apparent. Literally not even one example. If Vettel is dominating Leclerc in year 2, that will mean that Leclerc is simply not WDC material.

I give you an example. Nigel Mansell. He got cooked by Elio de Angelis during their years in Lotus, specially in 1984, their last year. How about Nico Rosberg, too?

Nico Rosberg was besting Mark Webber by the end of his first season in F1. It took him about a third of the season to get up to speed. Nigel was a different story but I maintain that de Angelis is one of the most underrated drivers of that era. He was seriously quick!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
According to the BBC, 'Keeping Raikkonen had been Vettel's preferred option'.

Well yes, it would be wouldn't it!

So how will Kimi react to team orders for the rest of the season now he's leaving and knows he's not got many more opportunities for a race win? It could get a little spicy.

Indeed Vettel would prefer to have someone who is slower and will not rock the boat, the boat got rocked a bit in Monza and he wasn't happy.


Nice dancing, poker!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
If the rumour that the Kimi to Sauber deal was negotiated totally independently of Ferrari is true then that has some ramifications for Sauber's future relationship with Ferrari.

What does this mean for the future of Giovanazzi? If both Sauber and Haas are determined to do things their own way with the driver lineup, then perhaps Ferrari might not be so keen to supply engines in future.


By all accounts Ferrari get to chose one of Sauber's drivers as part of the Alfa Romeo sponsorship deal, so if Kimi and Sauber negotiated this without any involvement from Ferrari, that would actually be better for Giovinazzi. It would mean Ferrari still have that option, and would basically guarantee a Raikkonen/Giovinazzi line-up at Sauber next year (which would be ideal for Ferrari as they could indirectly compare Giovinazzi to Seb by seeing how he performs relative to Raikkonen).

If it's true that Kimi negotiated this independently of Ferrari, then that may tie in with rumours around the time he joined Lotus where he was apparently in negotiations to own a stake in the Williams team. It would seem he has an ambition to be a race team (part) owner

Didn't know that. You have a source??

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:52 pm 
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I must say I am shocked Ferrari is actually bringing in Leclerc. But I see it somewhat as a slap in the face to Vettel, very much like they tried slapping Alonso in the face when they brought in Kimi. Vettel has made a few big mistakes over the last year and I am guessing some of the bosses at Ferrari have noticed and wanted to try something or someone new.

I agree with sandman that there might be fireworks, but only if Leclerc has the pace to beat Vettel, which no one can be sure of. And if Leclerc is faster I cannot imagine Vettel moving out of the way for him in any circumstance. And I’m not sure how you ask a 4 time WDC to move out of the way and expect him to comply.

Bold move by Ferrari. It will be very interesting to see how it will pan out.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:57 pm 
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I hope for the sake of Ferrari that Leclerc is as good as many think he is. Two exceptional drivers are more likely to bring home at least one championship than just one exceptional driver. To my mind, Leclerc is currently very overrated in that many of his errors or lacklustre performances are being glossed over because he is a rookie and because he has also at times been very impressive. He's still green - absolutely still green. But I think he does learn quickly and is a talent, and could get up to speed in not too much time in the Ferrari. I certainly hope so, as he's my favourite driver on the grid already!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I don't think that Leclerc will so easily get faster than Seb. The next 2 years Vettel will dominate, Leclerc will develop. I foresee no fireworks.

I think that's something you can't predict, we don't know how good Leclerc is.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I don't think that Leclerc will so easily get faster than Seb. The next 2 years Vettel will dominate, Leclerc will develop. I foresee no fireworks.

I can't think of a single example of a truly great driver who needed 2 years to "develop" before their speed and ability became apparent. Literally not even one example. If Vettel is dominating Leclerc in year 2, that will mean that Leclerc is simply not WDC material.

I give you an example. Nigel Mansell. He got cooked by Elio de Angelis during their years in Lotus, specially in 1984, their last year. How about Nico Rosberg, too?

I guess that's how you define truly great driver, it starts to become a long list when you include the likes of Mansell and Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I must say I am shocked Ferrari is actually bringing in Leclerc. But I see it somewhat as a slap in the face to Vettel, very much like they tried slapping Alonso in the face when they brought in Kimi. Vettel has made a few big mistakes over the last year and I am guessing some of the bosses at Ferrari have noticed and wanted to try something or someone new.

I agree with sandman that there might be fireworks, but only if Leclerc has the pace to beat Vettel, which no one can be sure of. And if Leclerc is faster I cannot imagine Vettel moving out of the way for him in any circumstance. And I’m not sure how you ask a 4 time WDC to move out of the way and expect him to comply.

Bold move by Ferrari. It will be very interesting to see how it will pan out.



How exactly is this a slap in the face for Vettel? Make it make sense.

Leclerc is replacing Kimi and not Seb.

So Vettel making mistakes and Ferrari bosses wanting to try something or someone new meant them renewing his contract till 2020 and letting his team mate go, the kind of things one reads on the internet this days.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:22 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I must say I am shocked Ferrari is actually bringing in Leclerc. But I see it somewhat as a slap in the face to Vettel, very much like they tried slapping Alonso in the face when they brought in Kimi. Vettel has made a few big mistakes over the last year and I am guessing some of the bosses at Ferrari have noticed and wanted to try something or someone new.

I agree with sandman that there might be fireworks, but only if Leclerc has the pace to beat Vettel, which no one can be sure of. And if Leclerc is faster I cannot imagine Vettel moving out of the way for him in any circumstance. And I’m not sure how you ask a 4 time WDC to move out of the way and expect him to comply.

Bold move by Ferrari. It will be very interesting to see how it will pan out.

For Charles it creates a moment of truth very early in his career. He will either rise to the challenge and defeat Sebastian in the same car or he will prove himself to not be up to the task. The consequences of either will be career-defining for him. In the best case scenario, if he beats Vettel, he will spend his entire career in top cars. Basically it will be like Hamilton and Vettel's careers; driving at or near the front almost throughout. The implications of him being capable of beating Seb would also suggest that he will have a serious shot at all of the records in the books. In the worst case scenario, if he is dominated by Vettel, he may find himself in Sergio Perez's position from that point on; with teams always looking at him as a guy who already had his shot. No pressure!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
According to the BBC, 'Keeping Raikkonen had been Vettel's preferred option'.

Well yes, it would be wouldn't it!

So how will Kimi react to team orders for the rest of the season now he's leaving and knows he's not got many more opportunities for a race win? It could get a little spicy.

Indeed Vettel would prefer to have someone who is slower and will not rock the boat, the boat got rocked a bit in Monza and he wasn't happy.


Nice dancing, poker!
;)

Well you know I'm open to any suggestion that's the kind of gig that Hamilton has with Bottas.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I must say I am shocked Ferrari is actually bringing in Leclerc. But I see it somewhat as a slap in the face to Vettel, very much like they tried slapping Alonso in the face when they brought in Kimi. Vettel has made a few big mistakes over the last year and I am guessing some of the bosses at Ferrari have noticed and wanted to try something or someone new.

I agree with sandman that there might be fireworks, but only if Leclerc has the pace to beat Vettel, which no one can be sure of. And if Leclerc is faster I cannot imagine Vettel moving out of the way for him in any circumstance. And I’m not sure how you ask a 4 time WDC to move out of the way and expect him to comply.

Bold move by Ferrari. It will be very interesting to see how it will pan out.



How exactly is this a slap in the face for Vettel? Make it make sense.

Leclerc is replacing Kimi and not Seb.

So Vettel making mistakes and Ferrari bosses wanting to try something or someone new meant them renewing his contract till 2020 and letting his team mate go, the kind of things one reads on the internet this days.


While I wouldn't word it quite the same way, it's certainly not exactly a gift for Vettel, is it? Gone is the man he comfortably held advantage over, who complied with team orders willingly and quietly and pretty much kept quiet despite it being painfully obvious to all and sundry that he was being bent over in the strategy stakes. In comes a highly rated young charger who could potentially be exactly the kind of world beater that Vettel is.

For Vettel, the attack is no longer coming from just Hamilton, it could also be coming from his own team mate. His comment about racing against 3 cars after Monza (if it was legit, was a dutch website IIRC) was telling. He is expecting 100% cooperation from all within his team. With the hiring of Leclerc, i'd suggest that Ferrari are trying to implement the opposite enviroment.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:30 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

I'm not sure how you are making the comparison between Leclerc and Wehrlein also lets not forget that unlike Leclerc, Wehrlein was not a rookie when he teamed up with Ericsson.

Really putting it out there that Vettel might have under performed to trigger his get put clause at Red Bull, Vettel must have psychic powers to know at the beginning of the season that Alonso would walk out on Ferrari in September.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I must say I am shocked Ferrari is actually bringing in Leclerc. But I see it somewhat as a slap in the face to Vettel, very much like they tried slapping Alonso in the face when they brought in Kimi. Vettel has made a few big mistakes over the last year and I am guessing some of the bosses at Ferrari have noticed and wanted to try something or someone new.

I agree with sandman that there might be fireworks, but only if Leclerc has the pace to beat Vettel, which no one can be sure of. And if Leclerc is faster I cannot imagine Vettel moving out of the way for him in any circumstance. And I’m not sure how you ask a 4 time WDC to move out of the way and expect him to comply.

Bold move by Ferrari. It will be very interesting to see how it will pan out.



How exactly is this a slap in the face for Vettel? Make it make sense.

Leclerc is replacing Kimi and not Seb.

So Vettel making mistakes and Ferrari bosses wanting to try something or someone new meant them renewing his contract till 2020 and letting his team mate go, the kind of things one reads on the internet this days.


While I wouldn't word it quite the same way, it's certainly not exactly a gift for Vettel, is it? Gone is the man he comfortably held advantage over, who complied with team orders willingly and quietly and pretty much kept quiet despite it being painfully obvious to all and sundry that he was being bent over in the strategy stakes. In comes a highly rated young charger who could potentially be exactly the kind of world beater that Vettel is.

For Vettel, the attack is no longer coming from just Hamilton, it could also be coming from his own team mate. His comment about racing against 3 cars after Monza (if it was legit, was a dutch website IIRC) was telling. He is expecting 100% cooperation from all within his team. With the hiring of Leclerc, i'd suggest that Ferrari are trying to implement the opposite enviroment.


Well at this point of the season with the points difference it was silly what Ferrari did there and they paid for it.

Also with Leclerc if he has the same points difference like now he will play second fiddle, also Vettel has always been with a non compliant team mate so I don't think it will be new to him, as Webber was never compliant.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

I'm not sure how you are making the comparison between Leclerc and Wehrlein also lets not forget that unlike Leclerc, Wehrlein was not a rookie when he teamed up with Ericsson.

Really putting it out there that Vettel might have under performed to trigger his get put clause at Red Bull, Vettel must have psychic powers to know at the beginning of the season that Alonso would walk out on Ferrari in September.


Every man and his dog knew Vettel had an agreement with Ferrari and could trigger at anytime, also Ferrari and Vettel signed the contract long before Horner announced it after he was told, also he didn't need Alonso to walk out he signed the contract before Alonso left.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Also with Leclerc if he has the same points difference like now he will play second fiddle


Almost certainly, but that 'if' is a pretty big one right now, as we don't really have any idea if Leclerc's apparent pace will transfer to the Ferrari and/or stack up against Vettel. The point i'm making here is that there is a chance of that happening, wheras with Raikonnen it was never going to happen. Vettel has had enough on his plate with Hamilton so far this year, next year he potentially has the added worry of a team mate gunning for him too, and if he is any kind of upgrade on Kimi, then any continued mistakes by Vettel are going to look a lot worse as Leclerc will be closer in the table.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

I'm not sure how you are making the comparison between Leclerc and Wehrlein also lets not forget that unlike Leclerc, Wehrlein was not a rookie when he teamed up with Ericsson.

Really putting it out there that Vettel might have under performed to trigger his get put clause at Red Bull, Vettel must have psychic powers to know at the beginning of the season that Alonso would walk out on Ferrari in September.


Every man and his dog knew Vettel had an agreement with Ferrari and could trigger at anytime, also Ferrari and Vettel signed the contract long before Horner announced it after he was told, also he didn't need Alonso to walk out he signed the contract before Alonso left.

Alonso still had 2 years left on his Ferrari contract, it needed Alonso to walk put, plus Alonso was also offered an extended contract until 2019 and Allison tried to convince Alonso to stay.

I know that some Vettel fans like the idea that Vettel deliberately under performed.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Well, not exactly surprising news is it?

The BBC have gone on record suggesting that Vettel would have preferred to keep Raikonnen as a team mate, and you can probably see why. I think those suggesting that Leclerc is going to Ferrari to be a #2 have got the wrong end of the stick, in fact this looks like an entire shift away from that process in light of how Mercedes have been tag teaming Ferrari recently with Kimi not having the pace to help defend Vettel from it. Leclerc will have qualifying to prove his speed, if he starts consistently matching/beating Vettel in Qualy (a very tall order, Vettel is one of the best in the business over 1 lap), I think the fairly unconditional support Vettel has received up until now in strategy will quickly disappear.

I do wonder if Vettel's recent troubles of his own making had a bit to do with the final decision to ditch Kimi too..... if there are feelings in the background that Sebastien might not be the man to lead Ferrari to both titles, perhaps the idea of getting the next guy in line to do that in the car earlier became more appealing?


I cannot see Charles bothering Vettel. I am pretty sure this decision was made in June-July itself by Ferrari president. I think everyone else in team prefers Kimi but obviously they could not overrule the decision that was already made. He and Kimi get along well just like Hamilton and Bottas. Ferrari should have gone with Ricciardo instead if they wanted a proven top driver other than Kimi and once Charles had done enough. They could then consider moving him to Ferrari in few years time.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:02 pm 
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If Sauber were worried about having the best young talent Ericsson wouldn't be there for years. Also why should they find a seat for a Mercedes young driver ? Ocon is competent but he doesn't dominate Perez who didn't dominate Button. Get Giovinazzi in with Kimi and you can bench two Ferrari young drivers next year and if neither are up to it Ferrari can always recall Kimi. Mercedes should get their own junior team like Red Bull because it obviously works in bringing young talent forward, Sauber seems to be Ferrari's.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Also with Leclerc if he has the same points difference like now he will play second fiddle


Almost certainly, but that 'if' is a pretty big one right now, as we don't really have any idea if Leclerc's apparent pace will transfer to the Ferrari and/or stack up against Vettel. The point i'm making here is that there is a chance of that happening, wheras with Raikonnen it was never going to happen. Vettel has had enough on his plate with Hamilton so far this year, next year he potentially has the added worry of a team mate gunning for him too, and if he is any kind of upgrade on Kimi, then any continued mistakes by Vettel are going to look a lot worse as Leclerc will be closer in the table.


But I see no reason why the only option for you is Leclerc beating Vettel, except you think Vettel and Ericsson are in same category.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Every man and his dog knew Vettel had an agreement with Ferrari and could trigger at anytime, also Ferrari and Vettel signed the contract long before Horner announced it after he was told, also he didn't need Alonso to walk out he signed the contract before Alonso left.

Alonso still had 2 years left on his Ferrari contract, it needed Alonso to walk put, plus Alonso was also offered an extended contract until 2019 and Allison tried to convince Alonso to stay.

I know that some Vettel fans like the idea that Vettel deliberately under performed.


Kimi had a contract for '10 and it didn't stop Ferrari signing Alonso, so wondering what you are on about, Vettel signed his contract before Alonso left anyway.
F1 contracts are not worth the paper they are on, either party can break it or by mutual consent.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Every man and his dog knew Vettel had an agreement with Ferrari and could trigger at anytime, also Ferrari and Vettel signed the contract long before Horner announced it after he was told, also he didn't need Alonso to walk out he signed the contract before Alonso left.

Alonso still had 2 years left on his Ferrari contract, it needed Alonso to walk put, plus Alonso was also offered an extended contract until 2019 and Allison tried to convince Alonso to stay.

I know that some Vettel fans like the idea that Vettel deliberately under performed.


Kimi had a contract for '10 and it didn't stop Ferrari signing Alonso, so wondering what you are on about, Vettel signed his contract before Alonso left anyway.
F1 contracts are not worth the paper they are on, either party can break it or by mutual consent.


Kimi's 2010 contract was definitely worth a lot more than the paper it was written on :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:39 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
If the rumour that the Kimi to Sauber deal was negotiated totally independently of Ferrari is true then that has some ramifications for Sauber's future relationship with Ferrari.

What does this mean for the future of Giovanazzi? If both Sauber and Haas are determined to do things their own way with the driver lineup, then perhaps Ferrari might not be so keen to supply engines in future.


By all accounts Ferrari get to chose one of Sauber's drivers as part of the Alfa Romeo sponsorship deal, so if Kimi and Sauber negotiated this without any involvement from Ferrari, that would actually be better for Giovinazzi. It would mean Ferrari still have that option, and would basically guarantee a Raikkonen/Giovinazzi line-up at Sauber next year (which would be ideal for Ferrari as they could indirectly compare Giovinazzi to Seb by seeing how he performs relative to Raikkonen).

If it's true that Kimi negotiated this independently of Ferrari, then that may tie in with rumours around the time he joined Lotus where he was apparently in negotiations to own a stake in the Williams team. It would seem he has an ambition to be a race team (part) owner

Didn't know that. You have a source??


Not exactly a source, but Windsor thinks so too [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSVcIB9Yilo[/youtube]


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:47 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.


I don't know. I think it depends on the level of his driving. If he beats Leclerc and win the championship his stock will rise.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:52 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I think your best scenario is the most likely one. If Leclerc is as good as he's rumoured to be then he'll beat Vettel on occasion. But I'd expect experience to count for more over the course of the season.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:24 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

Vettel's stock would still rise/be maintained if he beats LeClerc as Alonso's has against Vandoorne. If you keep beating the younger guns like Hamilton and Alonso it can only enhance your long term legacy. I feel however it will go down like Ricciardo/Vettel but may the best man win whoever it is. As you noted before Kimi just wasn't pushing Vettel in the other Ferrari in races so a change was going to happen at some time, this way Ferrari have insurance if LeClerc doesn't work out as Kimi is still left in F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Huge opportunity for Leclerc


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Also with Leclerc if he has the same points difference like now he will play second fiddle


Almost certainly, but that 'if' is a pretty big one right now, as we don't really have any idea if Leclerc's apparent pace will transfer to the Ferrari and/or stack up against Vettel. The point i'm making here is that there is a chance of that happening, wheras with Raikonnen it was never going to happen. Vettel has had enough on his plate with Hamilton so far this year, next year he potentially has the added worry of a team mate gunning for him too, and if he is any kind of upgrade on Kimi, then any continued mistakes by Vettel are going to look a lot worse as Leclerc will be closer in the table.


But I see no reason why the only option for you is Leclerc beating Vettel, except you think Vettel and Ericsson are in same category.


Going to assume something has been lost in translation because i've gone out of my way to say that there is a chance of Leclerc beating Vettel, wheras with Kimi there was no chance. Suggesting I somehow rate Ericsson and Vettel in the same category is absurd.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:42 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.


Could well be Vettel's 'Hamilton' moment, the same way Alonso suffered, though as time has passed, that year has been used to elevate both of their statuses within the sport.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Some one ought to start a poll on who will win between Vettel and Leclerc. Would be interesting to see what people expect.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:53 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
I wonder if leclerc will out perform vettel like Riccardo did and force him out. Very interesting, potential to be the most interesting move since ham to merc, if not more so


I can't help but think that Ricciardo has got screwed in all of this. He deserves to be in a top seat.


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