Alonso and Vettel

[Zoue]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years. I think there's a line between simply pointing out that the team is lacking straightline speed (which they already know) and calling it 'ridiculous'.

Saying something like 'that was hard with all the other cars being faster on the straights' might be objective. 'No straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race' is not a factual observation, because it's plainly an exaggeration. Adding 'unbelievable' and 'ridiculous' makes it pretty clearly just complaining.

He was whining, sure, but that's not slating the team

[mds]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years.

Because that's clearly comparable to shouting "GP2 engine", or "wish I had a Mercedes", or "the team isn't doing all they could", etc.

Vettel isn't calling team nor engine ridiculous, nor is he calling out his team.

[Exediron]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years.

Because that's clearly comparable to shouting "GP2 engine", or "wish I had a Mercedes", or "the team isn't doing all they could", etc.

Vettel isn't calling team nor engine ridiculous, nor is he calling out his team.

I suppose that's a matter of opinion, because I think he pretty clearly is calling the engine ridiculous. Red Bull (and their drivers) routinely complained about the Renault engine all throughout their title-winning years.

How is it not comparable to the GP2 engine remark? Alonso used a more colorful term, but it's otherwise the same. In fact, taken out of context, the quote 'We had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away... ridiculous.' sounds exactly like something Alonso would have said from 2015-2017.

[mds]

because I think he pretty clearly is calling the engine ridiculous.

Oh come on, think about it for just a minute. We know for a fact that the engines 2010-2013 were roughly on a par, and that the Red Bull characteristically ran high downforce setups. That is the reason for the low top speeds they used to have, we know that, so of course Vettel knew that too and so it's impossible for that to have been a slight towards the engine.

If it had been something about reliability, then yes. But how can lamenting a situation following from a choice in car setup possibly be a slight towards the engine?

[davidheath461]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years.

Because that's clearly comparable to shouting "GP2 engine", or "wish I had a Mercedes", or "the team isn't doing all they could", etc.

Vettel isn't calling team nor engine ridiculous, nor is he calling out his team.

Yeah right, "he's not bad mouthing his team or his car, he's only bad mouthing the straight line speed"

Get real!

That is just one example. Don't forget "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way", "How is Mark infront of me? HOW?" and his slating of Rockie in Korea 2011.

You've been caught out mds, and now you are finding it difficult to back track.

[davidheath461]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12529/ ... line-speed

Funny, he never complained about the Red Bull lacking top speed when they were winning races.

Shocking that he didn't complain about having a bad engine when he didn't have a bad engine.

that makes no sense.

I agree, and it's exactly what you're saying.

It's not.

Read it again - slowlllyyyyy!

[davidheath461]

because I think he pretty clearly is calling the engine ridiculous.

Oh come on, think about it for just a minute. We know for a fact that the engines 2010-2013 were roughly on a par, and that the Red Bull characteristically ran high downforce setups. That is the reason for the low top speeds they used to have, we know that, so of course Vettel knew that too and so it's impossible for that to have been a slight towards the engine.

If it had been something about reliability, then yes. But how can lamenting a situation following from a choice in car setup possibly be a slight towards the engine?

Not high downforce - they ran shorter gears.

Look at the wing levels they ran in 2011 and 2013 - clearly much shallower than Ferrari or Mclaren. That was because their EBD was generating so much more downforce.

[mds]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years.

Because that's clearly comparable to shouting "GP2 engine", or "wish I had a Mercedes", or "the team isn't doing all they could", etc.

Vettel isn't calling team nor engine ridiculous, nor is he calling out his team.

Yeah right, "he's not bad mouthing his team or his car, he's only bad mouthing the straight line speed"

Get real!

That is just one example. Don't forget "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way", "How is Mark infront of me? HOW?" and his slating of Rockie in Korea 2011.

You've been caught out mds, and now you are finding it difficult to back track.

Oh, the other side of the discussion declares me "caught out", so that must be true and I will pack my bags!
As far as I can see I haven't been caught out anything and you are coming up pretty thin on comparative examples.

"Mark is too slow" => how is that badmouthing the team?
"How is Mark in front of me" => how is that badmouthing the team?

There is literally nothing even remotely comparable to "my team isn't doing all they can" to be found, is there?

[mds]

Not high downforce - they ran shorter gears.

Look at the wing levels they ran in 2011 and 2013 - clearly much shallower than Ferrari or Mclaren. That was because their EBD was generating so much more downforce.

Not high downforce, but more downforce? OK.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Point is that it was a deliberate choice and we all know, and so did Vettel, the engine had nothing to do with it so it couldn't have been a slight at the engine.

[Zoue]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years.

Because that's clearly comparable to shouting "GP2 engine", or "wish I had a Mercedes", or "the team isn't doing all they could", etc.

Vettel isn't calling team nor engine ridiculous, nor is he calling out his team.

Yeah right, "he's not bad mouthing his team or his car, he's only bad mouthing the straight line speed"

Get real!

That is just one example. Don't forget "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way", "How is Mark infront of me? HOW?" and his slating of Rockie in Korea 2011.

You've been caught out mds, and now you are finding it difficult to back track.

How is "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way" badmouthing his team?

[Rockie]

"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years. I think there's a line between simply pointing out that the team is lacking straightline speed (which they already know) and calling it 'ridiculous'.

Saying something like 'that was hard with all the other cars being faster on the straights' might be objective. 'No straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race' is not a factual observation, because it's plainly an exaggeration. Adding 'unbelievable' and 'ridiculous' makes it pretty clearly just complaining.

What sort of false equivalency is this?

[Covalent]

Inappropriate post removed.

[Exediron]

because I think he pretty clearly is calling the engine ridiculous.

Oh come on, think about it for just a minute. We know for a fact that the engines 2010-2013 were roughly on a par, and that the Red Bull characteristically ran high downforce setups. That is the reason for the low top speeds they used to have, we know that, so of course Vettel knew that too and so it's impossible for that to have been a slight towards the engine.

That didn't stop Red Bull from pointing out how they had an engine disadvantage pretty much every time they didn't win. Were we watching the same four years? Horner & co. went out of their way to remind us how they had to overcome their weaker engine just to be on par with the others.

[mds]

because I think he pretty clearly is calling the engine ridiculous.

Oh come on, think about it for just a minute. We know for a fact that the engines 2010-2013 were roughly on a par, and that the Red Bull characteristically ran high downforce setups. That is the reason for the low top speeds they used to have, we know that, so of course Vettel knew that too and so it's impossible for that to have been a slight towards the engine.

That didn't stop Red Bull from pointing out how they had an engine disadvantage pretty much every time they didn't win. Were we watching the same four years? Horner & co. went out of their way to remind us how they had to overcome their weaker engine just to be on par with the others.

Not talking about "Horner & co", talking about Vettel. But I'm not sure Red Bull used to complain about the power the Renault made. I know they sometimes complained about reliability, e.g. the alternator issues that plagued them for a while.

[Exediron]

because I think he pretty clearly is calling the engine ridiculous.

Oh come on, think about it for just a minute. We know for a fact that the engines 2010-2013 were roughly on a par, and that the Red Bull characteristically ran high downforce setups. That is the reason for the low top speeds they used to have, we know that, so of course Vettel knew that too and so it's impossible for that to have been a slight towards the engine.

That didn't stop Red Bull from pointing out how they had an engine disadvantage pretty much every time they didn't win. Were we watching the same four years? Horner & co. went out of their way to remind us how they had to overcome their weaker engine just to be on par with the others.

Not talking about "Horner & co", talking about Vettel. But I'm not sure Red Bull used to complain about the power the Renault made. I know they sometimes complained about reliability, e.g. the alternator issues that plagued them for a while.

If the team principal didn't - as you say - know that the engine wasn't at fault, I don't see how that argument works for Vettel. I think they all knew it, but it didn't keep them from blaming their lack of straight-line speed on Renault. A bit like McLaren and Honda: their deficit was probably almost all down to their aerodynamic philosophy, but that didn't stop them from mentioning that the Renault was the least powerful engine (albeit by a small margin) just about every opportunity they got.

Anyway, I'm tired of debating this moot point. Vettel has never had a car/engine package anywhere near as poor as the 2015 McLaren-Honda, so we really don't know how he'd react if he did.

[mds]

Anyway, I'm tired of debating this moot point. Vettel has never had a car/engine package anywhere near as poor as the 2015 McLaren-Honda, so we really don't know how he'd react if he did.

Fine. Alonso was at the top of the WDC standings when he accused his team of not doing all they could.

[pokerman]

What does that have to do with asking for better cars or taking all the credit for a good car?

Anyway here's an F1 take on it then...https://www.crash.net/f1/news/209845/1/ ... -character

Specifically I said driver politics, that being between teammates, It's one thing being up against a tier 2 driver like Massa, another up against a tier 1 driver, this is what Rosberg referred to when he said that the top teams don't want Alonso because of his politics.

Right so like Button in McLaren then?. Let me guess this one doesn't count either because they weren't fighting for wins. Always an excuse.

Rosberg is parroting a well trotted out line, it's like Lewis and not being cerebral, it will follow him but it doesn't mean it's true. Those same top teams aren't trying to sign Dan who is as smiley as you like so again, sounds like more excuses for keeping their comfy line up and not rocking the boat with their lead drivers.

Well exactly what was on the line at McLaren with Button?

Rosberg is quite high profile and not just some other paddock journos who are easy to dismiss, also Rosberg is often seen working in the paddock so it's not like he's looking to take cheap shots from afar.

When has Alonso needed something on the line to be competitive? There wasn't much on the line at Ferrari with Kimi but you could still tell he wanted to win. Same in the second Renault spell.

I'm aware who he is and how can you speak for Rosberg's motivation? I can dismiss it until Dan's announced and I will do.

Something on the line to be political, also he didn't like the signing of Kimi and didn't make things nice for Kimi at all, then there was the barbed messages on the radio about him being quicker than Kimi.

What has Rosberg got against Alonso pray tell, however what Rosberg has is close connections with Mercedes in particular and insider knowledge of how they may view Alonso.

[pokerman]

OK… Possible new scenario…

Since it's been revealed Michael Andretti and his partners might be looking to buy Force India (OMG I love the sound of Andretti F1),
I wonder if Alonso might join the team as their lead driver leaving a vacancy at McLaren. That might incite a game of musical chairs of sorts.

It's still not going to be a winning car though, more likely an Andretti Indycar for Alonso.

[Lotus49]

Specifically I said driver politics, that being between teammates, It's one thing being up against a tier 2 driver like Massa, another up against a tier 1 driver, this is what Rosberg referred to when he said that the top teams don't want Alonso because of his politics.

Right so like Button in McLaren then?. Let me guess this one doesn't count either because they weren't fighting for wins. Always an excuse.

Rosberg is parroting a well trotted out line, it's like Lewis and not being cerebral, it will follow him but it doesn't mean it's true. Those same top teams aren't trying to sign Dan who is as smiley as you like so again, sounds like more excuses for keeping their comfy line up and not rocking the boat with their lead drivers.

Well exactly what was on the line at McLaren with Button?

Rosberg is quite high profile and not just some other paddock journos who are easy to dismiss, also Rosberg is often seen working in the paddock so it's not like he's looking to take cheap shots from afar.

When has Alonso needed something on the line to be competitive? There wasn't much on the line at Ferrari with Kimi but you could still tell he wanted to win. Same in the second Renault spell.

I'm aware who he is and how can you speak for Rosberg's motivation? I can dismiss it until Dan's announced and I will do.

Something on the line to be political, also he didn't like the signing of Kimi and didn't make things nice for Kimi at all, then there was the barbed messages on the radio about him being quicker than Kimi.

What has Rosberg got against Alonso pray tell, however what Rosberg has is close connections with Mercedes in particular and insider knowledge of how they may view Alonso.

Like I said, always an excuse as to why his case is different no matter what. I've given an example of a top line driver he sat next to without issue (Button) and you say there was nothing on the line. I give you an example of him being a bit of a you know what with another top line driver with nothing on the line and you say that's political. Always an excuse.

He does, he also knows Lewis who openly referred to his toxic relationship with Alonso so the possibility of Mercedes thinking Alonso joining would be toxic is pretty high if your lead driver is already referring to it like that. My point is I don't think that's why he's not there, I just don't think they are interested in an upgrade on Bottas at all.

Hence why I don't think smiley Dan who isn't toxic in any way is heading there either, so any opinions on the toxicity is moot and by now just a line to be trotted out to explain away why two teams who aren't interested in signing two roosters aren't signing him, as it sounds much better than saying we're happy with our current situation, however boring you might find it, so tough luck.

[davidheath461]

Not high downforce - they ran shorter gears.

Look at the wing levels they ran in 2011 and 2013 - clearly much shallower than Ferrari or Mclaren. That was because their EBD was generating so much more downforce.

Not high downforce, but more downforce? OK.

EBD doesn't cause drag...

Either way, it doesn't matter. Point is that it was a deliberate choice and we all know, and so did Vettel, the engine had nothing to do with it so it couldn't have been a slight at the engine.

Yes, engine didn't have much to do with it. Either way, he's slating the team (something you claimed he never does).

[davidheath461]

How is "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way" badmouthing his team?

I forgot, Mark Webber wasn't part of the Red Bull team...oh wait!

[davidheath461]

Anyway here's the latest example of Alonso slating his own team...oh wait!

http://grandprix.com/news/alonso-brown- ... n-era.html

[mds]

Either way, he's slating the team

Nope, don't agree.

I forgot, Mark Webber wasn't part of the Red Bull team...oh wait!

Sarcasm and lol-smileys, for when there are no actual arguments, it seems.
No, that too is not slating the team.

[davidheath461]

Slating a member of your team is not slating your team?

rrrriiiigggghhhhtttt....

[mds]

Anyway here's the latest example of Alonso slating his own team...oh wait!

http://grandprix.com/news/alonso-brown- ... n-era.html

So you just proved he doesn't always slate his team? That's great, I guess, but nobody said he did.

[mds]

Slating a member of your team is not slating your team

First of all, for a driver his teammate is his first opponent.
Second, Mark was slow so Seb said he was slow.

You're coming up with incredibly weak examples. This is supposed to stack up against saying your team "aren't doing all they could"? Get real.

[davidheath461]

And here's Alonso criticising his team's strategy during his Ferrari years:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/10029 ... i-strategy

[mds]

And here's Alonso criticising his team's strategy during his Ferrari years:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/10029 ... i-strategy

Alonso is a driver who doesn't always criticize his team.

Congratulations.

[davidheath461]

Sarcasm and lol-smileys, for when there are no actual arguments, it seems.

[mds]

Sarcasm and lol-smileys, for when there are no actual arguments, it seems.

If you drop the effort to make good contributions, I don't quite feel the need to keep it up either. Still, the point was evidently there: you're not exactly proving a point with examples of him speaking well of his team. Nobody ever said he never did that.

[iano]

Slating a member of your team is not slating your team

First of all, for a driver his teammate is his first opponent.
Second, Mark was slow so Seb said he was slow.

You're coming up with incredibly weak examples. This is supposed to stack up against saying your team "aren't doing all they could"? Get real.

The 'teammate is first opponent' is a complex thing. Certainly your teammate is a measuring stick - the reference for how your results will be interpreted. The relative results are out there - for all to see.

If you are 1/10 faster a lap on average or 1/100th it cannot be disputed. But how fast is that reference?
Which quote do you wish people to say?
"Oh he is faster than XXX... but given XXX is so slow he could still be the 2nd slowest driver on the grid"
- or -
"He is faster than XXX... and that is amazing because XXX is already one of the fastest out there!"

Not much point in having your team mate seen as slow. The slower your team mate given your results are all relative to your team mate... the slower you are.

[mikeyg123]

Sometimes when caught out talking bullshit it's better to just admit you were wrong that make yourself look dim as well.

[Zoue]

How is "Mark is too slow, get him out of the way" badmouthing his team?

I forgot, Mark Webber wasn't part of the Red Bull team...oh wait!

yeah that doesn't really answer the question. And clearly you're just trying to deflect with the smileys etc as you know you've been caught out and don't really have an answer to your claims, as others have already pointed out.

You originally said Vettel called his car terrible and "f...g slow," then provided a quote which said anything but. Then, when you realized that you couldn't translate fantasy into reality, you then started throwing out weaker and weaker examples in an attempt to prove that Vettel has been bad-mouthing his team, but all you are doing is making yourself look desperate.

And the sillier your examples get, the sillier you look. Probably best to quit while you're behind

[davidheath461]

I've already given you guys the example of Vettel slating his team after China 2012. You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

The evidence is right there in front of you and you are all choosing to ignore it.

[Zoue]

I've already given you guys the example of Vettel slating his team after China 2012. You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

The evidence is right there in front of you and you are all choosing to ignore it.

you mean the claim you completely fabricated?

[davidheath461]

I've already given you guys the example of Vettel slating his team after China 2012. You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

The evidence is right there in front of you and you are all choosing to ignore it.

you mean the claim you completely fabricated?

Nope i provided a link and a quote.

[Zoue]

I've already given you guys the example of Vettel slating his team after China 2012. You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

The evidence is right there in front of you and you are all choosing to ignore it.

you mean the claim you completely fabricated?

Nope i provided a link and a quote.

the one that was completely different to your claim?

[mds]

You can look up other races like Korea 2011, Germany 2012, Monaco 2016 etc.

You want to prove something, you do the work and look up.

[Mod Blue]

This thread is getting derailed a bit, please try to keep it civil and remember this rule in particular:

Trolling: Posting on the forum to deliberately incite or provoke people is not allowed. While we do not ban posting an opinion, no matter how controversial (so long as it is doesn't break any other forum rules), posting something simply to antagonise or stir up other people will not be tolerated. For this reason, while you are free to criticise drivers, team principals, pundits etc... simply calling them names or labelling them with an insulting term is not permitted.

Thanks!

MB

[Siao7]

With respect Mod Blue, we are still discussing Alonso and Vettel, how they treat their respective teams. This whole thread is for these two different drivers and how they dislike each other, how different they are and how they feel. It is bound to be a little bit heated, but I think we have kept it civilised.

Point taken though!