Mayhem wrote:RaggedMan wrote:The whole "Well what are going to do? If they want to kill somebody they're going to do it." argument is lame as hell. Just because some people have murderous intent doesn't mean we have to make it easy for them to carry it out.
Sure, there is no way to make everyone, everywhere completely safe but there's no reason to leave easily secured avenues of protection open.
I don't think this kid could've gotten a car into the halls of the school to plow others down as they were leaving their classrooms. If he had been armed with a bladed weapon instead of a gun he could've done a lot of damage but not nearly as much.
Actually he could have since schools in Florida are multiple building structures outside. Not just one building. They are more like mini malls where you have to walk from builing to building.
A car was used as a weapon at a rally where it drove into a crowd of people with no space to evacuate and only one person was killed as a result.
Yes, a killer can get a car only school premises, but you can hide and evade a car a lot more easily than you can a gun. You can sneak a gun into a school, you can silently approach your victims, this is not possible with a car, not even an electric one. The noise and visible presence of a vehicle will allow people to react, and not just that, once you have gone through a doorway, unless they are chasing you with a tank then they can't pursue you.
The issue is down to guns, it is entirely down to guns, not just the fact people can own guns and use them for their intended purpose (which is to kill the thing it is pointed at when you pull the trigger) but the normalization of guns within American society. In countries where guns are heavily regulated, in theory this means that the 'bad guys' can have it easily because the 'good guys' won't have guns, so they'll be outmatched, but this is an incredibly dumb observation, as it plays to the incredibly stupid logic that world is made up of bad people who just do things that are bad for the sake of being bad like they are henchmen in a comic book movie.
The bad guys' motivations are not 'to have guns' - for the vast majority of criminal activity the bad guys' isn't even to kill or injure people. It's usually to steal, or appropriate something for their own advantage, whether it's mugging someone or robbing a bank/store. In societies where guns are outlawed, having a gun will immediately draw attention to you as in a society where in civilian life they aren't allowed, having a gun will immediately identity someone as being a criminal. Obscurity is the name of the game is vast, vast numbers of crimes.
It's not just that guns are legal in America, it's that they are just accepted. Obviously, this varies from state to state depending on their specific laws around carrying but ultimately even when people do start to break the rules it becomes a bit like seeing a speeding motorist. Unless they are doing 120mph in a built up area people are unlikely to call the police, and the same mental barrier applied about guns.
People say that if guns are banned people will just use knives, and they point to the UK and say "you don't have guns, but you have a big problem with knives"
It is true, the UK does have a much bigger problem with knife crime compared to its gun crime. But that shouldn't be surprising given that guns are essentially completely banned whereas knives aren't completely banned, and a knife will draw far less attention than a gun will.
However, what is also true, is that when if you subtract all of the gun murders in the US, and take only the non-gun murder rate for the USA - that rate is still higher than the entire UK murder rate (that is per 100,000 people, so it's scaled for population)
The UK and Australia both banned firearms following school shootings in the 1990s, and the result is that both countries had thousands of firearms handed in (under buy back programs) and neither country has seen a significant school shooting since (Australia had one university shooting in which two people died, and the only mass shooting the UK has had was a shooting in Yorkshire involving someone with a shotgun. (but no school shootings)
Guns and gun death is normalised in the US. US Police have shot dead 126 people in 2018 so far. In the first 50 days of the year. UK Police have shot dead 47 people since January 1st 2000 (17 years and 50 days) - and that's including the three terrorists last year, which is rate of less than 3 per year. In the whole 2015, UK police fired their guns 7 times. Standard UK Police officers are unarmed. Guns are abnormal.
A gun is a weapon and its purpose is to harm others, whether that's for crime or for defense, it doesn't change what it is for. It's not an item that belongs in a civilised country, and if you live in a civilised country you should never ever have a reason to use one. And if the argument is "but I need it in case I am attacked" then you are ultimately saying you don't live in a civilised country.
It's not to say I don't think I could be attacked in the UK, or that I don't look over my should when walking down a street late at night, but on the token I don't set bear traps in my driveway in case my house gets attacked by wild animals.
The arguments put forwards by Americans for keeping their guns (and I have American friends who I otherwise respect and they say it all the time) are ultimately said because they want to keep their guns. Gun ownership is a hobby for them, they love their guns. While getting rid of guns in America would be trickier than in the UK and Australia, because of the fragmented nature of American democracy between State and Federal level and the political weight of the NRA, there isn't actually a good reason for not doing so. Every developed nation on earth had some measure of gun control, and the countries with the strictest (Japan and the UK) are right at the bottom of the gun deaths league tables.
There were 26 gun murders in the UK in 2016. Scaled for population, it means US Police will have shot dead more Americans before February is over in 2018 alone.
There shouldn't be a debate about the facts in this issue. Gun control will significantly reduce not just "gun deaths" but all murder in the US. It's been tried and tested by so many other countries in the world, so the issue isn't about whether it will work (it definitely will) the issue is about whether Americans (as a country) want it to happen. That's a much more prickly subject and even after the moment gun control advocates seem to have taken following this most recent shooting, I still can't ever see it happening. America has too many political groups like the NRA, right wing news organisations and the Republican Party rallying against gun control for it to get properly implemented.
And then, ultimately, even if an indisputable proof was produced that no one could argue against that said gun control would stop all crime, you run up against the Second Amendment. Despite the fact it's an 'amendment' which in itself shows that laws and the constitution can be changed and updated - it seems to many to be a sacrilegious line that can never be crossed.
Ultimately, it's not my fight. I'm not an American. It's up to Americans to make their own choice as a country about what they want to do. But, it is now at the point that when the you see a headline saying "Shoot shooting in America" it's like seeing the headline "Car Bomb in Baghdad" or "Thousands die from poverty in Africa" - it's sad that people are dying, and I want it to stop. But it's not really news anymore. It's just what happens there.