Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

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Kev627
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Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Kev627 »

After 15 years in F1 and a very nearly championship in 2008 Felipe Massa has announced his retirement.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by dompclarke »

Kev627 wrote:After 15 years in F1 and a very nearly championship in 2008 Felipe Massa has announced his retirement.

Again...

BMWSauber84
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by BMWSauber84 »

He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Flash2k11 »

Just in time for Brazil, so hopefully this meant that Williams had the class to let him know that he wasn't in the running for next year before his final home race. He wont go down in history as one of the greats, but I can't think over many better poster children for hard work and perseverance as Massa in F1. He was always quick yet very error prone in the Sauber days, before honing his craft under Schumacher's wing at Ferrari. Came probably closer than any other driver ever to winning the WDC without actually doing so (a corner, or a 1 minute delay in that rain shower ._.) and also showed almighty courage and bravery to come back from an injury that would have caused men with lesser heart to toss in the towel.

I hope he gets the send off he deserves.
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Banana Man
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Banana Man »

Never understood his popularity TBH. 14 full seasons and he has managed to beat his team mate twice. One was a sub-standard, can't be a*sed Villeneuve, the other a sub-standard, can't be a*sed Kimi. Obviously I've never met him but I don't think he comes across as particularly likable either. He just seems whiny and entitled most of the time.

It probably all comes from Brazil in 2008 where people said he was, "a champion for 30 seconds" etc. No he wasn't, he very nearly got very lucky but didn't. It it hadn't rained exactly when it did, Hamilton would probably have stayed ahead of Vettel and they would both have been ahead of Glock. If it hadn't been for Bourdais BS penalty the race before, 6th would have been enough anyway and I wont even go into Spa again.
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Armchair Expert »

BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


Rob Smedley, 2015:

"What we are seeing at the minute is definitely the best Felipe Massa that we have seen, definitely as good as 2008."

"I have worked with him for many years and I am still seeing him develop and it's good to see.

"That's a lad with 10 years-plus experience of driving Formula 1 cars, who is still able to develop and get better and better."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/11850 ... -have-seen
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by slide »

about time, oh no here we go for his home gp and big celebrations and brazil is the only race were he is going to get a big send off , so more running down the pit straight crying , sorry but iv'e never seen him as anything other than just a good driver , certainly not anything special , and he is not one to ever take the blame , its never his fault
Last edited by slide on Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

No, Stroll will have a terrible race in Australia next year and Williams will kick him out and resign Massa for the rest of the season :D
Not really. But I do think this is a shame. I think massa is a better option than Kvyat, Wehrlein, Kubica and Di Resta.
To me, this has looked to be his most solid season since he joined Williams. And for some who say he looks like hes just slow and not good enough, did they watch Baku? He was fighting with the Ferrari's at the restarts and could possibly have won that race. He's now very likely missed out on over 50 points this season down to bad luck. This would put him ahead of Ocon and concidering on the whole, the WIlliams has been worse than Force India, that shows that Massa really has't been bad. But he's pretty much at his limit and very unlikely to improve. So mayby this is a positive way to end. But his points really don't reflect how well he's actually done. And given how solid he's been, I'm not sure why Williams seem to think one of the other options will be better.

The next best I'd say would be Kvyat just because he's still very young and has had 4 years experience of the hybrid era which Di Resta an Kubica barely have any of. And Wehrlein only has 1 more years experience than Stroll and he's not really looking a lot better than Ericsson. He is decent, but not a good choice IMO. Kvyat may have looked poor in the last 2 years, but Red Bull really have treated him badly. If they noticed, he did perform at leased reasonably in 2015 and had a solid first season too. At a new team like Williams, I think he should be able to get back up to speed. I just don't thinkk Di Resta or Kubica are better options than Kvyat just because they havennn't had eough recent experience.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by j man »

Banana Man wrote:Never understood his popularity TBH. 14 full seasons and he has managed to beat his team mate twice. One was a sub-standard, can't be a*sed Villeneuve, the other a sub-standard, can't be a*sed Kimi. Obviously I've never met him but I don't think he comes across as particularly likable either. He just seems whiny and entitled most of the time.

It probably all comes from Brazil in 2008 where people said he was, "a champion for 30 seconds" etc. No he wasn't, he very nearly got very lucky but didn't. It it hadn't rained exactly when it did, Hamilton would probably have stayed ahead of Vettel and they would both have been ahead of Glock. If it hadn't been for Bourdais BS penalty the race before, 6th would have been enough anyway and I wont even go into Spa again.

I'd have to agree with this, I've never really been a fan either and always found him to be very overrated. To his credit though he was very gracious in defeat in 2008.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by paulsf1fix »

I wish Massa a happy retirement, I wonder who he will drive for in Formula e though?

Also I saw on the Autosport site all though it was someone's opinion probably not factual are linking Kubica to race for Williams in Abu Dhabi. I don't know if that will happen.....

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Altair »

A good, not great driver, I wish him the best of luck in retirement.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


I disagree. He always was a quick driver on his day but inconsistent and error-prone, throughout his whole career.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Lt. Drebin »

For me, F1 will not be the same again, I have cheered for him always. :(
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Herb Tarlik »

j man wrote:
Banana Man wrote:Never understood his popularity TBH. 14 full seasons and he has managed to beat his team mate twice. One was a sub-standard, can't be a*sed Villeneuve, the other a sub-standard, can't be a*sed Kimi. Obviously I've never met him but I don't think he comes across as particularly likable either. He just seems whiny and entitled most of the time.

It probably all comes from Brazil in 2008 where people said he was, "a champion for 30 seconds" etc. No he wasn't, he very nearly got very lucky but didn't. It it hadn't rained exactly when it did, Hamilton would probably have stayed ahead of Vettel and they would both have been ahead of Glock. If it hadn't been for Bourdais BS penalty the race before, 6th would have been enough anyway and I wont even go into Spa again.

I'd have to agree with this, I've never really been a fan either and always found him to be very overrated. To his credit though he was very gracious in defeat in 2008.


I give Massa a lot of credit for how he handled his defeat in 2008. That must have been beyond difficult. That and how he came back from his injury showed everyone how decent a person he is.

All that said, I think he is one of the most radically overrated drivers in recent history.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


I disagree. He always was a quick driver on his day but inconsistent and error-prone, throughout his whole career.


He was consistently outperforming Raikkonen from Brazil 2007 to Hungary 2009 in fairness.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Still, his 2008 wdc campaign was the most error-rich ever of any driver with at least ten spins.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Blake »

Flash2k11 wrote:Just in time for Brazil, so hopefully this meant that Williams had the class to let him know that he wasn't in the running for next year before his final home race. He wont go down in history as one of the greats, but I can't think over many better poster children for hard work and perseverance as Massa in F1. He was always quick yet very error prone in the Sauber days, before honing his craft under Schumacher's wing at Ferrari. Came probably closer than any other driver ever to winning the WDC without actually doing so (a corner, or a 1 minute delay in that rain shower ._.) and also showed almighty courage and bravery to come back from an injury that would have caused men with lesser heart to toss in the towel.

I hope he gets the send off he deserves.


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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by F1nut »

Flash2k11 wrote:Just in time for Brazil, so hopefully this meant that Williams had the class to let him know that he wasn't in the running for next year before his final home race. He wont go down in history as one of the greats, but I can't think over many better poster children for hard work and perseverance as Massa in F1. He was always quick yet very error prone in the Sauber days, before honing his craft under Schumacher's wing at Ferrari. Came probably closer than any other driver ever to winning the WDC without actually doing so (a corner, or a 1 minute delay in that rain shower ._.) and also showed almighty courage and bravery to come back from an injury that would have caused men with lesser heart to toss in the towel.

I hope he gets the send off he deserves.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by lamo »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
All that said, I think he is one of the most radically overrated drivers in recent history.


Who actually rates Massa though? I don't think the consensus has had him in the top 10 drivers on the grid for any period other than 2007-2009.

He holds the all time record for most seasons lost to a team mate and it is going to take some beating. 12 seasons going to be 13 if he doesn't come back against Stroll, that is going to be very very hard to beat. Not sure if he holds it for consecutive seasons, he is about to post number 9 this season.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by lamo »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


I disagree. He always was a quick driver on his day but inconsistent and error-prone, throughout his whole career.


He was consistently outperforming Raikkonen from Brazil 2007 to Hungary 2009 in fairness.


He was also faster than Kimi through 2007 too (which people often forget/overlook) he just made a few more errors, had slightly worst luck and there were two wet races in 2 of the final 3 races before which Massa was only 7 points behind Raikkonen. We all know what Massa is like in the wet. Kimi out scored him by 7 points over those 2 wet races.

Kimi still only beat him 110-94 which included a team order in the final race, 108-96 without that.

In order of who was quicker, Massa was quicker than Raikkonen more than 65% of there races as team mates. He just made more errors and was bad in the wet.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Siao7 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


He was immediately fast when he came back. He was leading the WDC the next year after the first couple of races...

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


He was immediately fast when he came back. He was leading the WDC the next year after the first couple of races...


Only because of Alonso's troublesome Australian grand Prix. Massa was well behind on race pace under normal conditions.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Siao7 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:He has never really been quite the same driver since the 2009 accident. Coming back alongside Alonso really exposed that. It would have been tough even if Massa had been at his pre accident best.


He was immediately fast when he came back. He was leading the WDC the next year after the first couple of races...


Only because of Alonso's troublesome Australian grand Prix. Massa was well behind on race pace under normal conditions.

True, but he was leading the practise times as well if I remember correctly and during the winter testing

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Herb Tarlik »

lamo wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
All that said, I think he is one of the most radically overrated drivers in recent history.


Who actually rates Massa though? I don't think the consensus has had him in the top 10 drivers on the grid for any period other than 2007-2009.

He holds the all time record for most seasons lost to a team mate and it is going to take some beating. 12 seasons going to be 13 if he doesn't come back against Stroll, that is going to be very very hard to beat. Not sure if he holds it for consecutive seasons, he is about to post number 9 this season.


Judging from some here in this thread, Massa gets some degree of rating. I dont know why, as the guy is just not quick. This isn't the thread to speak down on him though so I'm going to stop here.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Ennis »

Herb Tarlik wrote:
lamo wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
All that said, I think he is one of the most radically overrated drivers in recent history.


Who actually rates Massa though? I don't think the consensus has had him in the top 10 drivers on the grid for any period other than 2007-2009.

He holds the all time record for most seasons lost to a team mate and it is going to take some beating. 12 seasons going to be 13 if he doesn't come back against Stroll, that is going to be very very hard to beat. Not sure if he holds it for consecutive seasons, he is about to post number 9 this season.


Judging from some here in this thread, Massa gets some degree of rating. I dont know why, as the guy is just not quick. This isn't the thread to speak down on him though so I'm going to stop here.


I'm not sure if its just a longevity respect thing, but he has that horrible combination of not being very quick and always finding someone else to blame. Makes him very difficult to like.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by GingerFurball »

It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by mcdo »

GingerFurball wrote:It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

The best one I read was that the head injury did affect his driving but it went away when he joined Williams
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by mcdo »

I was never a fan of Massa but I hope he enjoys a good send off (again). I didn't think coming back was the right thing to do for team or driver. But it's hard to know if Williams would have challenged Force India for 4th with a different driver - the car really did fall away as the season progressed. So it has probably worked out just the same with Massa in the car. If he and his team have been happy with his performance then who am I to judge?

If anything at least he has an opportunity to make up for last year's Brazilian GP and avoid finishing his new final home race in the wall
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Lt. Drebin »

GingerFurball wrote:It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

I think that it's clear that he was a second driver in the team with zero chances for a victory. "Fernando is faster than you" was applied when necessary. Testing parts for Alonso was his duty.
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Siao7 »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

I think that it's clear that he was a second driver in the team with zero chances for a victory. "Fernando is faster than you" was applied when necessary. Testing parts for Alonso was his duty.

Taking a grid penalty so that Alonso will start on the clean side or being overtaken in the pitlane didn't help either.

Not trying to big up Massa's mediocre appearances, but it would surely play a part and I wouldn't call this period 100% representative.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Lt. Drebin »

Siao7 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

I think that it's clear that he was a second driver in the team with zero chances for a victory. "Fernando is faster than you" was applied when necessary. Testing parts for Alonso was his duty.

Taking a grid penalty so that Alonso will start on the clean side or being overtaken in the pitlane didn't help either.

Not trying to big up Massa's mediocre appearances, but it would surely play a part and I wouldn't call this period 100% representative.

Thank you for reminding us on the shameful part of Ferrari team against his reputation, tough, he stayed loyal.
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Lt. Drebin wrote:For me, F1 will not be the same again, I have cheered for him always. :(

Ditto!

Felipe Baby may not be an all-time great, but he was and still is an EXCELLENT Driver! To say anything else is nonsense.
When he had the equipment under him with almost equal opportunity he was nothing short of, well… Excellent.
yes he had a few fumbles that contributed to his coming up Juuuuuuust short of the WDC in 2008, but if you look back, that is the case in many seasons.
Vettel almost cost himself a championship spinning of his own accord and was lucky his car was one of the best, if not the best and it allowed him to claw his way through the field to win that championship. Hamilton did it in 2007 and in 20011 his personal issues kept him from focusing fully on his job, Button started out 2009 in a car that was the class of the field but come the half way point when everyone bridged the gap to the Brawn, he struggled to fight at the front and was fortunate his teammate stepped up his game or he wouldn't have won the championship either (perhaps a bit of a stretch but the argument can be made), yet he's viewed as a superb driver. And not that button isn't, just that in much the same way that Button is viewed as an excellent driver, Massa isn't so different and should be held in the same light. He was a respectful gentleman to everyone, and he was a consummate team player who sacrificed himself in the name of helping his teams as well as his teammates.

I hope to see him around racing for many years to come and if he decides to try his hand at Indy Cars I will tune in because he's there.

He is a part of F1 history and I wish to thank him for his time in F1 and wish him nothing but the very best moving forward.
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Siao7 »

Lt. Drebin wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

I think that it's clear that he was a second driver in the team with zero chances for a victory. "Fernando is faster than you" was applied when necessary. Testing parts for Alonso was his duty.

Taking a grid penalty so that Alonso will start on the clean side or being overtaken in the pitlane didn't help either.

Not trying to big up Massa's mediocre appearances, but it would surely play a part and I wouldn't call this period 100% representative.

Thank you for reminding us on the shameful part of Ferrari team against his reputation, tough, he stayed loyal.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic there Lt...

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

I don't denote any sarcasm in that. just plain truth. His time at Ferrari with Alonso as the #1 everything saw to it that Felipe role was to be that dog they kick whenever they saw fit, and boy did they ever kick him, even just for kicks at times it seemed.
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by GingerFurball »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't denote any sarcasm in that. just plain truth. His time at Ferrari with Alonso as the #1 everything saw to it that Felipe role was to be that dog they kick whenever they saw fit, and boy did they ever kick him, even just for kicks at times it seemed.

What was Raikkonen's excuse for doing as badly against Alonso?

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by FlavioPassos »

It is the right time for Massa to leave. But as a brazilian who enjoys F1 like many brazilians did for years and years I see Brazil is less and less interested about F1 each year. This is really sad news for me. If we keep going this way, soon we won't have any more drivers and even the race will be under threat. And I don't think it will be too long until this day.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Fiki »

GingerFurball wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't denote any sarcasm in that. just plain truth. His time at Ferrari with Alonso as the #1 everything saw to it that Felipe role was to be that dog they kick whenever they saw fit, and boy did they ever kick him, even just for kicks at times it seemed.

What was Raikkonen's excuse for doing as badly against Alonso?
I would much rather know the reasons than any excuses. My opinion is that he was in the same position that Massa was in before him; Ferrari believing the driver was more important than the car. Räikkönen showed us quite clearly in 2008 that the car and he were plenty fast enough. And in 2009, two replacement drivers showed us just how much of a handful Räikkönen and Massa had to handle. Which they did.

I agree with Mercenary, and I believe that Massa was much better than Ferrari allowed him to show us. But for the Singapore 2008 pitstop debacle, he would have been a worthy champion. But for "crashgate", perhaps?
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by mcdo »

FlavioPassos wrote:It is the right time for Massa to leave. But as a brazilian who enjoys F1 like many brazilians did for years and years I see Brazil is less and less interested about F1 each year. This is really sad news for me. If we keep going this way, soon we won't have any more drivers and even the race will be under threat. And I don't think it will be too long until this day.

I hate to break to you but it looks like that will be next year

But certain nationalities come in waves in F1. It wasn't that long ago there were no French drivers on the grid. Now it's looking like 3 + 1 Monegasque for 2018. I would be surprised if Brazil didn't bounce back after a short drought
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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by mas »

He was a flaky driver but on his best days he was pretty damn quick. You just never knew which Massa was going to turn up in the next race which was part of his charm I suppose. Happy retirement and kudos for the class you showed in 2008 and while suffering Alonso's bullying nature. He's not physically a big man but mentally he is, bon voyage in whatever you do next.

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Re: Massa retirement pt 2, The Real Deal

Post by Banana Man »

Siao7 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:It's amazing how many excuses were made for him to explain a 4 year period where he barely scored a podium while his team-mate won 11 races and nearly won 2 titles.

I think that it's clear that he was a second driver in the team with zero chances for a victory. "Fernando is faster than you" was applied when necessary. Testing parts for Alonso was his duty.

Taking a grid penalty so that Alonso will start on the clean side or being overtaken in the pitlane didn't help either.

Not trying to big up Massa's mediocre appearances, but it would surely play a part and I wouldn't call this period 100% representative.


He was Fernando's team mate for 5 years, at an age when both should really be at the peak of their careers. I'd say it was about as representative as you can get. If nothing else it represents that Felipe chose to stick around and collect Ferrari wages, even though he was quite clearly getting his backside whooped. If he wasn't happy with the team, why stay?

The whole Hockenheim thing would never have happened if Felipe had performed up until that point but he didn't. He was behind in the Championship 67 points to 98. He was never going to challenge the McLarens or Red Bulls.
I remember when this website was all fields.

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