Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not)

[pokerman]

How about this. Change your paradigm and swap the results, times of Dan and Max.

You'd all be saying Dan is out the door being outscored by Max.

Maybe Max's fast practice times smash his engine and hence it dies in the race while Dan nurses his until q3 and gets a decent time but a reliable engine for the race. How many failures before this theory has merit?

It's nice to see that this kind of logic exists outside of Hamilton threads.

Ricciardo is merely making hay whilst the sun lasts, the only thing he has on Verstappen is maturity.

[pokerman]

How about this. Change your paradigm and swap the results, times of Dan and Max.

You'd all be saying Dan is out the door being outscored by Max.

Nope. Just like I never said Kvyat was better than Ricciardo in 2015.

Maybe Max's fast practice times smash his engine and hence it dies in the race while Dan nurses his until q3 and gets a decent time but a reliable engine for the race. How many failures before this theory has merit?

As far as I now understand, Max's engine didn't actually die at Spa. Software cut it out on the basis of a faulty detection of a supposed problem - it's a software safety Renault built in after earlier blowups.

The engine apparently ran fine after the race.

Yeah I actually had this argument in 2015 with a well known poster, I would say a Vettel fan, who said that Kvyat was matching Ricciardo, in doing so ignoring all the problems that Ricciardo was having, mainly mechanical in nature.

[pokerman]

But for this season, Daniel has made his move, and reliability or not, Max has to do it now. No matter how reliability goes, questions logically remain to the one that hasn't answered them. Is he a great talent ? Yes. Question answered. Has he had some great drives ? Yes. Question answered. Is he able to constantly put it up there and to pull things out of the bag, when the bag is empty ? Presumably yes, but he has not done it yet.

Well yes he has done it... He has done it at various times last year, he has done it this year in China, Silverstone was of the same make. If he finishes, then apart from Monaco he's been in the highest possible finishing position and he has picked up the scraps where the others left them.

Max can't do more than he has been doing all season long, in almost every weekend: being as high up as his material allows for it, being in front of his team mate, until it doesn't allow for it anymore. He cannot do more than that.

but if his car keeps breaking down for the next 15 years, you will not name him a great driver, will you

it's part of the game unfortunately.

Senna has a worse retirement rate than Verstappen....

Which by the way was also used against him.

[mikeyg123]

But for this season, Daniel has made his move, and reliability or not, Max has to do it now. No matter how reliability goes, questions logically remain to the one that hasn't answered them. Is he a great talent ? Yes. Question answered. Has he had some great drives ? Yes. Question answered. Is he able to constantly put it up there and to pull things out of the bag, when the bag is empty ? Presumably yes, but he has not done it yet.

Well yes he has done it... He has done it at various times last year, he has done it this year in China, Silverstone was of the same make. If he finishes, then apart from Monaco he's been in the highest possible finishing position and he has picked up the scraps where the others left them.

Max can't do more than he has been doing all season long, in almost every weekend: being as high up as his material allows for it, being in front of his team mate, until it doesn't allow for it anymore. He cannot do more than that.

but if his car keeps breaking down for the next 15 years, you will not name him a great driver, will you

it's part of the game unfortunately.

Senna has a worse retirement rate than Verstappen....

Which by the way was also used against him.

But he is still considered a great.

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

[sandman1347]

Senna has a worse retirement rate than Verstappen....

Which by the way was also used against him.

But he is still considered a great.

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

I've pretty much always seen the "car-breaker" argument as a bunch of BS. It's just a way to defend a slower driver who is winning because of luck.

[Exediron]

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

I've pretty much always seen the "car-breaker" argument as a bunch of BS. It's just a way to defend a slower driver who is winning because of luck.

Unless you believe luck is a tangible force that stays with a driver, it's hard to explain why (in the past) some drivers carried that luck over their entire careers. Prost, for example, almost always had less retirements than his teammate.

[mikeyg123]

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

I've pretty much always seen the "car-breaker" argument as a bunch of BS. It's just a way to defend a slower driver who is winning because of luck.

Unless you believe luck is a tangible force that stays with a driver, it's hard to explain why (in the past) some drivers carried that luck over their entire careers. Prost, for example, almost always had less retirements than his teammate.

Prost had no less retirements due to mechanical failures than his team mate in 1981, 1982, 1987, 1988 and 1990.

I think TBH in the 80s and early 90s drivers did have an influence on some of the mechanical failures they suffered. That changed though and certainly by the mid 00s everything was controlled by the pits. It was simply not possible anymore for a driver to over rev the engine or blow up a gearbox by missing a gear.

I also think being the defacto number 1 driver (and I mean proper number 1 driver, not the way we throw it around these days) also seems to leave you with less mechanical issues. Schumacher always had the rub of the luck compared to Barrichello and Irvine. I would put that down to more effort spent on preparing his car by better people.

[infi24r]

Senna has a worse retirement rate than Verstappen....

Which by the way was also used against him.

But he is still considered a great.

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

I've pretty much always seen the "car-breaker" argument as a bunch of BS. It's just a way to defend a slower driver who is winning because of luck.

Thats not true, for most of history F1 cars were very fragile. Using less revs, less wheel spin etc did make a difference.

[iano]

These are two great drivers. They could even be the two best.

We cannot be certain that anyone on the grid from other teams is actually better than either of these two overall. But cannot be sure if everyone was in identical machinery which of the drivers on the entire grid would perform best either. Could be Also, Hamilton, Vettel .....or even one of these two.

I believe Max is the fastest driver at the start of the race, but at the end of the race Daniel is the fastest. Of course that gives no overall winner. It also makes max look relatively better when Max only competes at the start of the race due to reliability problems.

There is another factor. It seems like Daniel is fast at the moment he most needs to, while Max is just fast. So even when Daniel does out-qualify, for most sessions Max is still faster, just not on that one lap.

Overall, I do see Daniel as currently the better point scoring machine, but the excitement of Max and his potential given his age makes him the excitement machine, and the guy best placed to be a legend by the time he retires.

[F1Oz]

I think these drivers are pretty evenly matched.

In terms of speed, it's close but Max appears to be shading Dan (more in qualifying rather than race pace though)

Max has had a couple of fantastic wet weather races - but one of those he looked great - then Dan (after changing set up) caught up and nearly passed Max back - but all the talk was only about Max

Consistency wise - Dan is shading things - he rarely makes mistakes

Ability to take opportunities - well, a bit harder for Max given reliability issues - but you can't fault Dan who has got the maximum out of that car

Racecraft - I think Dan is a better overtaker in that he is cleaner and less likely to collide - whereas Max is good but more extreme - and doesn't think long term - why he caused the avoidable accident in Austria and took out Dan when Dan was clearly ahead and had track position.

There's a hype about Max - but the fact that Dan is able to work with him and get the best out of the team/car as a partnership helps both - and they push each other - I think Dan can do that anywhere but I'm not sure that Max (or his entourage) wouldn't antagonise many other drivers - and end up being a negative for the team - Force India is suffering from this in 2017 and there are many examples elsewhere.

I rate both - but you've got to look at the whole package - it's not like PF1 team mate wars where Max ahead on road (then off for mechanical issue) is given the nod - and when Dan is ahead and off through no fault of his own (e.g. for Austria where it was Max's fault) - well they give it to Max

[Exediron]

Unless you believe luck is a tangible force that stays with a driver, it's hard to explain why (in the past) some drivers carried that luck over their entire careers. Prost, for example, almost always had less retirements than his teammate.

Prost had no less retirements due to mechanical failures than his team mate in 1981, 1982, 1987, 1988 and 1990.

Prost did have less in 1987 (3 compared to 4), and a lot less in 1990 (3 compared to 6). You're right on the others, however; Senna miraculously enough had no mechanical retirements whatsoever in 1988, and Prost's Renault cars were terribly unreliable (though I actually have it as dead even with Arnoux in 1982).

However, he raced for 13 years, and he only had even as many failures as his teammates in 3 of those - and only more in 2. That's still an awfully good hit rate for it to be down to pure luck, and in particular this is a driver who actively went out of his way to be gentle on his cars. He clearly believed it made a difference, and the numbers suggest it might very well have.

[mikeyg123]

Unless you believe luck is a tangible force that stays with a driver, it's hard to explain why (in the past) some drivers carried that luck over their entire careers. Prost, for example, almost always had less retirements than his teammate.

Prost had no less retirements due to mechanical failures than his team mate in 1981, 1982, 1987, 1988 and 1990.

Prost did have less in 1987 (3 compared to 4), and a lot less in 1990 (3 compared to 6). You're right on the others, however; Senna miraculously enough had no mechanical retirements whatsoever in 1988, and Prost's Renault cars were terribly unreliable (though I actually have it as dead even with Arnoux in 1982).

However, he raced for 13 years, and he only had even as many failures as his teammates in 3 of those - and only more in 2. That's still an awfully good hit rate for it to be down to pure luck, and in particular this is a driver who actively went out of his way to be gentle on his cars. He clearly believed it made a difference, and the numbers suggest it might very well have.

I think we have both made mistakes... in 87 he had 5 mechanical failures. The same as his team mate Johansson. I meant to say 91 rather than 1990. In 91 both he and Alesi had 6

So that's 5 out of 13. Easily within the bounds of statistical variance for an even chance.

I do however believe that a driver in Prost's era could have an impact on reliability. Perhaps Prost did and that is why the stats favour him slightly. I think in modern F1 a driver has virtually no impact at all upon his rate of mechanical failures.

[Exediron]

I think we have both made mistakes... in 87 he had 5 mechanical failures. The same as his team mate Johansson. I meant to say 91 rather than 1990. In 91 both he and Alesi had 6

So that's 5 out of 13. Easily within the bounds of statistical variance for an even chance.

I do however believe that a driver in Prost's era could have an impact on reliability. Perhaps Prost did and that is why the stats favour him slightly. I think in modern F1 a driver has virtually no impact at all upon his rate of mechanical failures.

Ah, I see where I went wrong - I forgot about the classified finishes where his car failed.

I agree that modern F1 drivers have no affect on the engine. I think they might on the suspension, by hitting high kerbs, etc. But certainly less than they used to.

[pokerman]

Well yes he has done it... He has done it at various times last year, he has done it this year in China, Silverstone was of the same make. If he finishes, then apart from Monaco he's been in the highest possible finishing position and he has picked up the scraps where the others left them.

Max can't do more than he has been doing all season long, in almost every weekend: being as high up as his material allows for it, being in front of his team mate, until it doesn't allow for it anymore. He cannot do more than that.

but if his car keeps breaking down for the next 15 years, you will not name him a great driver, will you

it's part of the game unfortunately.

Senna has a worse retirement rate than Verstappen....

Which by the way was also used against him.

But he is still considered a great.

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

Well he also went up against the man (Prost), and beat him, he won 3 titles, 65 poles, 41 wins, and would have achieved more if he hadn't been killed, that sort of helped as well.

[pokerman]

Senna has a worse retirement rate than Verstappen....

Which by the way was also used against him.

But he is still considered a great.

(I personally think using Senna's retirement record against him is daft but at least he drove in an era where a driver could have an influence on reliability)

I've pretty much always seen the "car-breaker" argument as a bunch of BS. It's just a way to defend a slower driver who is winning because of luck.

[F1Oz]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

[rivf1]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

[F1Oz]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

[mikeyg123]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

[GingerFurball]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

Ricciardo out raced him massively in the dry in China and would have been on the podium against a driver who defends fairly.

[da4an1qu1]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

I have no doubt that Verstappen is a super quick driver. The maturity will come. But at this point, 2017, he is often the one extinguishing any chance to produce, or to outrace Ricciardo. And if Ricciardo is slower... it ain't by much. And he has excellent racecraft.

I used to think of Hamilton much like Verstappen. Unnecessarily getting into risky scraps. Hamilton has mostly ironed those out these days. Verstappen will be a dominant champion eventually.

[rivf1]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

Well we might if he doesn't keep blowing up his car and crashing into other drivers, meanwhile dan keeps producing when it matters.

[mikeyg123]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

Well we might if he doesn't keep blowing up his car and crashing into other drivers, meanwhile dan keeps producing when it matters.

How is he blowing up his car? You can't honestly blame him for that. Today it was Massa that hit him. Would have beaten Ricciardo without Massa running into him.

What was your opinion on Ricciardo's 2015 season?

[F1Oz]

arguably it was as much Max's fault as Massa - but the issue remains - why was Max on superior tyres unable to overtake like Dan?

He did at end - but why not earlier?

The reality is that Dan seriously out performed Max at Monza

[mikeyg123]

arguably it was as much Max's fault as Massa - but the issue remains - why was Max on superior tyres unable to overtake like Dan?

He did at end - but why not earlier?

The reality is that Dan seriously out performed Max at Monza

Dan's the better racer at the moment that's for sure. It's a shame we are not getting to see a fair battle between them. One thing we know is that Verstappen is almost always ahead of Ricciardo when running trouble free.

[mikeyg123]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

Ricciardo out raced him massively in the dry in China and would have been on the podium against a driver who defends fairly.

And Verstappen has beaten Dan in some races this season as well.... I'm not arguing that Ricciardo is hopeless.

[rivf1]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

Ricciardo out raced him massively in the dry in China and would have been on the podium against a driver who defends fairly.

And Verstappen has beaten Dan in some races this season as well.... I'm not arguing that Ricciardo is hopeless.

Oh yeah, max is seriously quick and a skilled driver, his best years are without doubt in front of him as he matures and hones his race craft.

[Option or Prime]

Verstappen is seriously quick but take a look at the points table, Ricciardo has TWICE as many points, it can't all be bad luck, I do get the impression that he leaves his car in positions on the track where contact is more likely, the example with Magnussen being a case in point. He was making a point because Magnussen dared to contest his part of the track. Its all very well stating your case as a driver for future clashes. But it is self defeating if you keep losing wings and getting punctures.
He really needs to grow up a bit, even when given info over the radio he feels he is being got at. It's that teenager, "your not telling me what to do, I know it all already" attitude. Its about time he realised that he is racing with men out there and stop whinging.

[mikeyg123]

Verstappen is seriously quick but take a look at the points table, Ricciardo has TWICE as many points, it can't all be bad luck, I do get the impression that he leaves his car in positions on the track where contact is more likely, the example with Magnussen being a case in point. He was making a point because Magnussen dared to contest his part of the track. Its all very well stating your case as a driver for future clashes. But it is self defeating if you keep losing wings and getting punctures.
He really needs to grow up a bit, even when given info over the radio he feels he is being got at. It's that teenager, "your not telling me what to do, I know it all already" attitude. Its about time he realised that he is racing with men out there and stop whinging.

Just take out the mechanical failures and Max gets about 90 more points...

[GingerFurball]

Verstappen is seriously quick but take a look at the points table, Ricciardo has TWICE as many points, it can't all be bad luck, I do get the impression that he leaves his car in positions on the track where contact is more likely, the example with Magnussen being a case in point. He was making a point because Magnussen dared to contest his part of the track. Its all very well stating your case as a driver for future clashes. But it is self defeating if you keep losing wings and getting punctures.
He really needs to grow up a bit, even when given info over the radio he feels he is being got at. It's that teenager, "your not telling me what to do, I know it all already" attitude. Its about time he realised that he is racing with men out there and stop whinging.

Just take out the mechanical failures and Max gets about 90 more points...

Assuming he wouldn't have gone on to crash by driving like a muppet.

[mikeyg123]

Verstappen is seriously quick but take a look at the points table, Ricciardo has TWICE as many points, it can't all be bad luck, I do get the impression that he leaves his car in positions on the track where contact is more likely, the example with Magnussen being a case in point. He was making a point because Magnussen dared to contest his part of the track. Its all very well stating your case as a driver for future clashes. But it is self defeating if you keep losing wings and getting punctures.
He really needs to grow up a bit, even when given info over the radio he feels he is being got at. It's that teenager, "your not telling me what to do, I know it all already" attitude. Its about time he realised that he is racing with men out there and stop whinging.

Just take out the mechanical failures and Max gets about 90 more points...

Assuming he wouldn't have gone on to crash by driving like a muppet.

Which after the first lap has happened very rarely this season so it's safe assumption. Has he crashed out of more races than Ricciardo this season?

[Lotus49]

Verstappen is seriously quick but take a look at the points table, Ricciardo has TWICE as many points, it can't all be bad luck, I do get the impression that he leaves his car in positions on the track where contact is more likely, the example with Magnussen being a case in point. He was making a point because Magnussen dared to contest his part of the track. Its all very well stating your case as a driver for future clashes. But it is self defeating if you keep losing wings and getting punctures.
He really needs to grow up a bit, even when given info over the radio he feels he is being got at. It's that teenager, "your not telling me what to do, I know it all already" attitude. Its about time he realised that he is racing with men out there and stop whinging.

Just take out the mechanical failures and Max gets about 90 more points...

Assuming he wouldn't have gone on to crash by driving like a muppet.

Which after the first lap has happened very rarely this season so it's safe assumption. Has he crashed out of more races than Ricciardo this season?

Interestingly just counting the races where Verstappen has not retired due to mech failure he has more points over those races than Dan. Even including all the "numpty" driving.

Are you including the race he took out Dan?.

[mikeyg123]

Verstappen is seriously quick but take a look at the points table, Ricciardo has TWICE as many points, it can't all be bad luck, I do get the impression that he leaves his car in positions on the track where contact is more likely, the example with Magnussen being a case in point. He was making a point because Magnussen dared to contest his part of the track. Its all very well stating your case as a driver for future clashes. But it is self defeating if you keep losing wings and getting punctures.
He really needs to grow up a bit, even when given info over the radio he feels he is being got at. It's that teenager, "your not telling me what to do, I know it all already" attitude. Its about time he realised that he is racing with men out there and stop whinging.

Just take out the mechanical failures and Max gets about 90 more points...

Assuming he wouldn't have gone on to crash by driving like a muppet.

Which after the first lap has happened very rarely this season so it's safe assumption. Has he crashed out of more races than Ricciardo this season?

Interestingly just counting the races where Verstappen has not retired due to mech failure he has more points over those races than Dan. Even including all the "numpty" driving.

Are you including the race he took out Dan?.

Fair point. I've deleted that 2nd paragraph anyway because I felt it was misleading.

[Lotus49]

I do think Max is in general out performing Dan but today was Dan's for me.

Class drive with perfect risk assessment.

[pokerman]

Interesting that Max unable to pass others at Monza on SS (unless there is some issue not clear at this point affecting performance which might be the case) where Dan did on Softs

Super performance from Dan

Yep max has proven without doubt he is faster on saturday this season but dan keeps producing when it matters on sunday.

Has Max had the opportunity to produce on Sunday? We rarely see Ricciardo out race Verstappen.

I have no doubt that Verstappen is a super quick driver. The maturity will come. But at this point, 2017, he is often the one extinguishing any chance to produce, or to outrace Ricciardo. And if Ricciardo is slower... it ain't by much. And he has excellent racecraft.

I used to think of Hamilton much like Verstappen. Unnecessarily getting into risky scraps. Hamilton has mostly ironed those out these days. Verstappen will be a dominant champion eventually.

Yep first of all I believe that Verstappen's car got damaged in the collision with Massa and secondly all his scrapes were basically racing incidents but in comparison with Ricciardo there was a marked difference with him being able to come through the traffic much cleaner than Verstappen, Verstappen is over aggressive.

[GingerFurball]

Having watched the highlights Verstappen has a lot to learn race craft wise. Puncture was entirely his fault, he was lucky not to take damage after chopping Grosjean and his move on Magnussen was just dumb.

[sandman1347]

I do think Max is in general out performing Dan but today was Dan's for me.

Class drive with perfect risk assessment.

Totally agree. Max is actually a lot like Hamilton was early on. He needs to re-calibrate his risk/reward computer. His performance level is outstanding but right now he is taking too many unnecessary risks.

You don't always have to be the one to get it wrong. Sometimes the guy you're racing might get it wrong and you have to factor that in. I think Max has gotten away with a lot of overly aggressive racing since he's come into F1. This season is the first one where he has paid a price for it.

[mas]

The only time Lewis was like (Mad) Max was in 2011 and that was a one off season. The other ten years in the sport he has shown more care than Max. Max has been an exciting but a dangerous driver ever since he entered the sport. His ego is just too big for his actual talent at the moment. Hopefully experience will raise his talent and lower his ego so they are more harmoniously matched. He has the perfect teammate on that score to learn better attitude and racecraft from.

[Charles LeBrad]

I love how this thread spikes every time Dan beats Max

B-b-but, that doesn't count. Yes Dan finished 6 spots ahead of Max, but... umm... he showed panache when he had that accident with Massa, so Max is the better driver

[Herb Tarlik]

I love how this thread spikes every time Dan beats Max

B-b-but, that doesn't count. Yes Dan finished 6 spots ahead of Max, but... umm... he showed panache when he had that accident with Massa, so Max is the better driver

As time goes by, my opinion of Max continues to drift lower. A lot of his misfortunes on the track are of his own making.