Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona & on)

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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?

Poll ended at Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am

Ferrari
44
37%
Mercedes
74
63%
 
Total votes: 118

Zoue
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

I think you severely overestimate the benefit of fresh tyres. If having tyres just seven laps fresher gives you 0.366s per lap, then extending that logic would have meant Hamilton's potential fastest lap would have been some 10s faster than he did, given that he set it on tyres that were 30 laps old.

I don't think so, somehow

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Possibly yes. Possibly not.

That would be 0.045 tyre deg per lap, which we have seen at other races, much higher at others.

Fuel burn in Canada at a glance seems to be about 4-5 seconds from the start to the finish. That would make the cars 0.060 - 0.070 a lap faster as the weight goes down.

Accounting for tyre deg and fuel burn this would make the cars slightly quicker as the stint goes which is what was observed. See Kimi's final stint for evidence of that and this is obviously up until the point the tyres go.

Those figures aren't spot on but yes I feel that that figure is about right for tyre advantage.

Did you fuel adjust that Hamilton lap? I don't think so. Hamilton also isn't really comparable because he was on the SS which had a life of 40 laps, US only had a life of 30 and Hamilton wasn't ever pushing. Whilst Kimi and Vettel were 100% pushing during that stint.

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

slightly quicker ism't 0.366s per lap. I'd say that crosses well into the realms of "significantly quicker"

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Zoue wrote:slightly quicker ism't 0.366s per lap. I'd say that crosses well into the realms of "significantly quicker"
You have completely mixed up the point and analysis.

The slightly quicker comment is in regards to a car going quicker through the stint.

I.e. in canada the benefit of burning fuel was greater than the the degradation of the tyres therefore the cars got slightly quicker through the stint. With every lap that passed

-0.060 to -0.070 quicker due to reduced weight (fuel burn)
+0.045 per lap slower due to tyre degredation

Net result, with each lap the cars will lap slightly quicker by about 0.015 to 0.025 under stable conditions. If you look at Kimi's stint, out of the pits he was in the 15.7-16.0 range then 15-16 laps later he was in the 15.4-15.6 range which fits with above.

The more I have looked into it, the more I am confident in new ultra tyre being worth about 0.045 per lap. Do you have anything to counter that?

If the tyres had no degredation at all, the lap times would improve by 0.060-0.070 per lap, which means after 10 laps car would be lapping 0.6 - 0.7 quicker, 1.2-1.4 seconds quicker after 20 laps - that clearly wasn't the case in Canada - there was significant tyre degradation. Look at Kimi's times after 10 laps out of the pits in that final stint...

Further evidence of tyre degradation. Vettels best lap in his initial out laps. 15.1, Vettels fastest lap of the stint on the final lap just a 14.7, 18 laps later, once he had burned about 1.2 seconds worth of fuel. That is 0.8 of tyre degredation... 1.2/18 = 0.4444444 almost spot on.
Last edited by lamo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

F1_Ernie
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

lamo wrote:I'm not doubting it didn't cost him hugely, he might have won without it. I am just saying it wasn't really from the back like Rosbergs drive in Russia 2014 wasn't really from the back. They both pitted early from positions 2 and 4 in those races and were never a net last position. The same as if the leader pits and is momentarily in 6th position because nobody else has pitted, he didn't win the race coming back from 6th as he was never really a net 6th place.

Visually looking at the car and its lap times I guessed at 0.5 per lap. Hamiltons damage in China 2016 looked similar and Mercedes said it lost him 0.7 per lap.

The final stint however is the real comparison between Kimi and Vettel. Both on US, both pushing all out to catch Force Indias.

Looking at this stint before Kimi's failure - Vettel had 8 laps fresher tyres and reduced the gap from 6.7 seconds to 3.4 seconds in 9 laps. He gained just 3.3 seconds or 0.366 per lap. I think having 8 laps fresher tyres would be worth more than that on its own. Therefore Vettel at this phase was probably running slower than Kimi "fuel adjusted".

That is why I guessed at 0.5 per lap lost to damage because I put Vettel at being 0.3-0.4 per lap quicker than Kimi this race. Kimi had his worst race pace all season.
Mark Hughes said the actual damage could of been at least 2 to 3 tenths but in all it would of been 0.5 because Vettel would not of taken the corners with the same confidence and commitment as without the damage.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

F1_Ernie
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by F1_Ernie »

Automotorsport also say Mercedes engineers believe that Ferrari has now a better engine than them.

Where's the British bias?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:slightly quicker ism't 0.366s per lap. I'd say that crosses well into the realms of "significantly quicker"
You have completely mixed up the point and analysis.

The slightly quicker comment is in regards to a car going quicker through the stint.

I.e. in canada the benefit of burning fuel was greater than the the degradation of the tyres therefore the cars got slightly quicker through the stint. With every lap that passed

-0.060 to -0.070 quicker due to reduced weight (fuel burn)
+0.045 per lap slower due to tyre degredation

Net result, with each lap the cars will lap slightly quicker by about 0.015 to 0.025 under stable conditions. If you look at Kimi's stint, out of the pits he was in the 15.7-16.0 range then 15-16 laps later he was in the 15.4-15.6 range which fits with above.

The more I have looked into it, the more I am confident in new ultra tyre being worth about 0.045 per lap. Do you have anything to counter that?

If the tyres had no degredation at all, the lap times would improve by 0.060-0.070 per lap, which means after 10 laps car would be lapping 0.6 - 0.7 quicker after just 10 laps. Look at Kimi's times after 10 laps out of the pits in that final stint...
you said, and I quote: "He gained just 3.3 seconds or 0.366 per lap. I think having 8 laps fresher tyres would be worth more than that on its own"

Now I know my maths isn't great but I'm struggling to match the 0.366s figure with the 0.105 - 0.115 breakdown you have given above.

And I do question your assumptions on tyre degradation. Vettel put in a 1:15.431 on his first flying lap out of the pits. His final flying lap, his fastest of the day some 19 laps later, when he was chasing down Ricciardo, was 1:14.719. This means over the 19 laps he improved by an average of 0.037s per lap.

And we know Vettel was pushing, he said so himself. So I think your 0.366s per lap figure is way off the mark

edit: and if you do the same exercise for Kimi, measuring the difference between his first flying lap and his last before his brake issues, you'll see that his speed improved by a mere 0.021s per lap. Still not close to the above figures
Last edited by Zoue on Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:slightly quicker ism't 0.366s per lap. I'd say that crosses well into the realms of "significantly quicker"
You have completely mixed up the point and analysis.

The slightly quicker comment is in regards to a car going quicker through the stint.

I.e. in canada the benefit of burning fuel was greater than the the degradation of the tyres therefore the cars got slightly quicker through the stint. With every lap that passed

-0.060 to -0.070 quicker due to reduced weight (fuel burn)
+0.045 per lap slower due to tyre degredation

Net result, with each lap the cars will lap slightly quicker by about 0.015 to 0.025 under stable conditions. If you look at Kimi's stint, out of the pits he was in the 15.7-16.0 range then 15-16 laps later he was in the 15.4-15.6 range which fits with above.

The more I have looked into it, the more I am confident in new ultra tyre being worth about 0.045 per lap. Do you have anything to counter that?

If the tyres had no degredation at all, the lap times would improve by 0.060-0.070 per lap, which means after 10 laps car would be lapping 0.6 - 0.7 quicker after just 10 laps. Look at Kimi's times after 10 laps out of the pits in that final stint...
you said, and I quote: "He gained just 3.3 seconds or 0.366 per lap. I think having 8 laps fresher tyres would be worth more than that on its own"

Now I know my maths isn't great but I'm struggling to match the 0.366s figure with the 0.105 - 0.115 breakdown you have given above.

And I do question your assumptions on tyre degradation. Vettel put in a 1:15.431 on his first flying lap out of the pits. His final flying lap, his fastest of the day some 19 laps later, when he was chasing down Ricciardo, was 1:14.719. This means over the 19 laps he improved by an average of 0.037s per lap.

And we know Vettel was pushing, he said so himself. So I think your 0.366s per lap figure is way off the mark
Dude you aren't allowing for fuel in your analysis!

Lets run with that Vettel comparison...

15.4 whilst carrying 18 laps of fuel
14.7 whilst carrying 0 laps of fuel

Weight penalty of fuel 18 laps of fuel - lets say 0.065 per lap in the middle of the estimate, 1.2 seconds.

Vettel was only 0.7 quicker, without tyre degradation he should have been 1.2 seconds quicker.

He lost 0.7 to tyre degradation. Which over 20 laps means the tyres lost 0.35 per lap due to the tyres which is in the ball park of my 0.045. He also set a 15.1 whilst carrying 18 laps of fuel which would put tyre degradation right on my 0.45 estimate as that works out at 0.44444

Vettels advantage over Kimi in the final stint was 8 lap fresher tyres, 8x0.045 = 0.360

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:slightly quicker ism't 0.366s per lap. I'd say that crosses well into the realms of "significantly quicker"
You have completely mixed up the point and analysis.

The slightly quicker comment is in regards to a car going quicker through the stint.

I.e. in canada the benefit of burning fuel was greater than the the degradation of the tyres therefore the cars got slightly quicker through the stint. With every lap that passed

-0.060 to -0.070 quicker due to reduced weight (fuel burn)
+0.045 per lap slower due to tyre degredation

Net result, with each lap the cars will lap slightly quicker by about 0.015 to 0.025 under stable conditions. If you look at Kimi's stint, out of the pits he was in the 15.7-16.0 range then 15-16 laps later he was in the 15.4-15.6 range which fits with above.

The more I have looked into it, the more I am confident in new ultra tyre being worth about 0.045 per lap. Do you have anything to counter that?

If the tyres had no degredation at all, the lap times would improve by 0.060-0.070 per lap, which means after 10 laps car would be lapping 0.6 - 0.7 quicker after just 10 laps. Look at Kimi's times after 10 laps out of the pits in that final stint...
you said, and I quote: "He gained just 3.3 seconds or 0.366 per lap. I think having 8 laps fresher tyres would be worth more than that on its own"

Now I know my maths isn't great but I'm struggling to match the 0.366s figure with the 0.105 - 0.115 breakdown you have given above.

And I do question your assumptions on tyre degradation. Vettel put in a 1:15.431 on his first flying lap out of the pits. His final flying lap, his fastest of the day some 19 laps later, when he was chasing down Ricciardo, was 1:14.719. This means over the 19 laps he improved by an average of 0.037s per lap.

And we know Vettel was pushing, he said so himself. So I think your 0.366s per lap figure is way off the mark
Dude you aren't allowing for fuel in your analysis!

Lets run with that Vettel comparison...

15.4 whilst carrying 18 laps of fuel
14.7 whilst carrying 0 laps of fuel

Weight penalty of fuel 18 laps of fuel - lets say 0.065 per lap in the middle of the estimate, 1.2 seconds.

Vettel was only 0.7 quicker, without tyre degradation he should have been 1.2 seconds quicker.

He lost 0.7 to tyre degradation. Which over 20 laps means the tyres lost 0.35 per lap due to the tyres which is in the ball park of my 0.045. He also set a 15.1 whilst carrying 18 laps of fuel which would put tyre degradation right on my 0.45 estimate as that works out at 0.44444
He didn't lose 0.7s to tyre degradation. He gained 0.7s in absolute terms over 19 laps, which equates to 0.037s per lap. Where are you getting the fuel figures from wich underpin your calculations? And how does everything tie up with him gaining 0.366s on tyres alone?

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:Vettels advantage over Kimi in the final stint was 8 lap fresher tyres, 8x0.045 = 0.360
You are aware, are you not, that 0.360 over 8 laps is very different to 0.366s per lap, as you originally claimed?

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

I explained the fuel calculation in the first post, you have been watching long enough to know the huge affect of fuel. It is also a perfectly linear relationship as we all know from the refuelling days.

I stated in the first post that the fuel affect was likely 4-5 seconds from the start of the race to the end. This is the normal range. F1 car + 100kg is about 4-6 seconds a lap slower depending on the track. I looked at a range of drivers to work this out, it is tricky because you have to compare start of race pace which is on new tyres against end of race pace which is on old tyres so its not as simple as looking at the pace at the start to the end. You also use middle race pace to see if it all fits.

Vettels best lap in his out laps was a 15.1, 18 laps later he did a 14.7 when we both agree he was pushing to catch Ricciardo. So over that period he gained just 0.4. You remember the refuelling days of course, 1 lap of fuel back then was always around 0.050-0.100 per lap depending on the track. Vettel was 18 laps lighter and just 0.4 quicker.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:Vettels advantage over Kimi in the final stint was 8 lap fresher tyres, 8x0.045 = 0.360
You are aware, are you not, that 0.360 over 8 laps is very different to 0.366s per lap, as you originally claimed?
The original claim is the same as now. For each single lap Vettel had fresher tyres, his advantage over Kimi was 0.045. He had 8 lap fresher tyres so he should have been 0.360 per lap quicker if they were running at the same pace.

I don't see which bit you do not understand, for every lap of that stint, Vettel had 8 lap fresher tyres. So he has a 0.360 advantage for every lap. When Vettels tyres were 1 lap old Kimi's were 9, when Vettels were 10 laps old, Kimi's were 18... etc etc.

Similarly if he had just 1 lap fresher tyres, then Vettel should be 0.045 quicker for every lap...

Extending this to the Perez and Ocon situation, which I haven't looked at in great detail and it was on a different tyre and also nearer the end of the tyres life when the advantage of a newer tyre can can begin to diminish.. Ocon had 14 laps fresher tyres than Perez. 14x0.045 = 0.63. Given my estimate, Ocon had a 0.63 pace advantage per lap in his tyres alone hence the calls for Ocon to be allowed through to attack Ricciardo.
Last edited by lamo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

People seem to have forgotten the dynamics of fuel burning off and its relationship with tyre degradation. I had this discussion in here a few races ago where somebody said there was no tyre degradation in a race because the drivers set consistent times throughout the entire stint. That is simply wrong...

If drivers get quicker through the stint
Tyre degradation < time gained from burning fuel
e.g. 0.045 < 0.075 . Cars lap 0.030 per lap quicker

If drivers get slower through the stint
Tyre degradation > time gained from burning fuel
e.g. 0.150 > 0.050. Car lap 0.050 per lap slower

If drivers set the same times through a stint
Tyre degradation = time gained from burning fuel
e.g 0.075 = 0.075. Cars lap the same times

The last example, tyres are still degrading but its simply offset by the car getting lighter each lap. If there is zero tyre degradation the cars will get quicker every lap that passes. An F1 car carrying 1 single lap of fuel is 0.050-0.150 per lap slower, 0.150 being Spa. Most tracks full within 0.050-0.100 range. It is also a linear relationship, so if you remove 10 laps of fuel from a car the engineers will tell you exactly how much quicker it will lap (all other things equal). This is similar to Russia this year.

The middle example is what generally occurred during the high degradation Pirelli era. It gives rise to some crazy undercut potential. You can throw on new tyres and immediately go 2-3 seconds per lap quicker.

The first example is what occurs mostly during 2017 with these lower degradation tyres, it is also what happened in Canada although it close to a tyre degradation = weight loss race.
Last edited by lamo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:Vettels advantage over Kimi in the final stint was 8 lap fresher tyres, 8x0.045 = 0.360
You are aware, are you not, that 0.360 over 8 laps is very different to 0.366s per lap, as you originally claimed?
The original claim is the same as now. For each single lap Vettel had fresher tyres, his advantage over Kimi was 0.045. He had 8 lap fresher tyres so he should have been 0.360 per lap quicker if they were running at the same pace.

I don't see which bit you do not understand, for every lap of that stint, Vettel had 8 lap fresher tyres. So he has a 0.360 advantage for every lap. When Vettels tyres were 1 lap old Kimi's were 9, when Vettels were 10 laps old, Kimi's were 18... etc etc.

Similarly if he had 1 lap fresher tyres, then Vettel should be 0.045 quicker for every lap...
ah, I think I see where you are coming from now. Trouble is, it doesn't really tie in with what we see.

Take Seb. He went on a charge from lap 51 to 63. No traffic, so no other factors to influence his pace. Yet his lap time went down three tenths in that time. So that's 0.021s per lap. But if you take lap 52 as the more accurate barometer of his true pace, since it was a good three tenths quicker than the previous lap, which can't be down to either tyre degradation or fuel, you'll note that he didn't actually get any faster at all. 0.006s over 11 laps. So how do you work out what the tyre degradation actually was?

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Yes, his pace was quite consistent over that period. All within a kind of 0.3 range. The drivers are not robots +/- 0.1 per lap is kind of average allowing for slight errors each lap an minor inconsistencies.

Indeed, we agree though his pace was quite consistent throughout that charge hence my prediction that the pace slightly improved through the stint. I estimate pace to improve by just 0.020 per lap in my analysis.

That is;

0.065 quicker through getting lighter but 0.045 slower due to tyres wearing out. Therefore only 0.020 which is only 0.2 gain after 10 laps or 0.4 after 20 laps which is exactly how it worked out for Vettel with his fastest laps.

Which taking that back to my original claim. Vettel was throughout that entire charge on 8 lap fresher tyres than Kimi, each lap of freshness was worth 0.045 according to my analysis, so that is a total of 0.360 per lap in Vettels favour.

If there was no tyre degradation in Canada, Vettels laps would have just got quicker and quicker with every passing lap but as you correctly point out they did not, or only very very slightly. That his lap times didn't improve by much shows there was tyre degradation (because his car was getting lighter and lighter each passing lap) and he had an advantage over Kimi who had 8 lap older tyres.

When I was watching the race I was surprised at how slowly Vettel was catching Kimi given his tyre advantage over him and the fact it was Vettel against Kimi in a straight fight, you would expect Vettel to be quicker given the season and weekends form, so with Vettel on 8 lap fresher tyres I expected him to be absolutely flying and taking 0.7-0.8 out of Kimi a lap, not just 0.360. When I was watching it, I thought to myself he isn't quick enough to pass Kimi, I wonder how/if Ferrari will do anything to get him by. It seemed you needed to be about a second per lap quicker to pass in this race.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

The other reason I feel Vettel had a really damaged car was the fastest laps

Hamilton did a 14.55 on 31 lap old SS's carrying 6 laps of fuel.
Vettel did a 14.72 on 20 lap old US's carrying 1 lap of fuel.
Bottas did a 15.8 on 41 lap old S's carrying 6 laps of fuel.

Vettel was 5 laps lighter than Hamilton, a compound softer and had 11 lap fresher tyres and still 0.2 off of Hamilton.
He was also only 1 second quicker than Bottas whilst being 5 laps lighter, 2 compounds softer and having tyres 21 laps fresher and Bottas probably didn't even push to set a fast lap.

Adjust those times for those factors and he is surely over 1 second a lap slower than Hamilton I am sure. A combination of his damage and the Mercedes being the better car in Canada in my opinion.

A.J.
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by A.J. »

Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
While it's the biggest gap we've seen, don't forget we've seen gaps of 5 tenths earlier in the year and the Ferrari still looked equal/better in the race. Let's see what happens tomorrow.

Mercedes are the qualifying kings still though, that much is clear, but after the last few years that shouldn't really be a surprise as they've held that title since 2014 and arguably 2013.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
Probably because they judged it before Baku... In Baku it is very clear which car is better. If we judged it on everything that just happened, then immediately after Monaco, surely we would be calling Ferrari was dominant? Its the season long performance.

To me, the Mercedes is now ahead at more of the tracks, they are winning the development race.

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

lamo wrote:
A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
Probably because they judged it before Baku... In Baku it is very clear which car is better. If we judged it on everything that just happened, then immediately after Monaco, surely we would be calling Ferrari was dominant? Its the season long performance.

To me, the Mercedes is now ahead at more of the tracks, they are winning the development race.
Yes Merc are definitely looking stronger. I'm hoping the last two tracks aren't indicative of the rest of the season, but it's bit concerning for those wanting a close fight. The gap today is huge

rivf1
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by rivf1 »

Mercedes were 1.2s faster than ferrari last year at this track and 1.1s faster this year, so not much has changed on the PU front, mercedes still dominating by a good margin. Certainly makes of mockery of perez and the fai saying renault are pretty much there with mercedes.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by nixxxon »

lamo wrote:
A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
Probably because they judged it before Baku... In Baku it is very clear which car is better. If we judged it on everything that just happened, then immediately after Monaco, surely we would be calling Ferrari was dominant? Its the season long performance.

To me, the Mercedes is now ahead at more of the tracks, they are winning the development race.
From what we saw in Monaco and Canada, its pretty clear that the Merc is the faster car on the straights and the Ferrari is the better car on corners, and Baku is totally a power track, so the Mercedes being comfortably ahead was expected, and I expect a borefest tomorrow with the Mercedes comfortably finishing 1-2 (unless some accident happens)

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

Additionally, several drivers have commented how hard it is to get the tyres switched on. This will have quite a big impact on performance, sadly, and may exacerbate the differences between the teams

Zoue
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Zoue »

nixxxon wrote:
lamo wrote:
A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
Probably because they judged it before Baku... In Baku it is very clear which car is better. If we judged it on everything that just happened, then immediately after Monaco, surely we would be calling Ferrari was dominant? Its the season long performance.

To me, the Mercedes is now ahead at more of the tracks, they are winning the development race.
From what we saw in Monaco and Canada, its pretty clear that the Merc is the faster car on the straights and the Ferrari is the better car on corners, and Baku is totally a power track, so the Mercedes being comfortably ahead was expected, and I expect a borefest tomorrow with the Mercedes comfortably finishing 1-2 (unless some accident happens)
Well, the Merc was faster in the other sectors, too, so I don't think they are giving anything away in the corners here

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Its worth noting that post Monaco the Mercedes could really be well ahead now. In 2016 Canada Ferrari had its best race all season and Vettel could have won on merit. It will be interesting to see how Austria goes, Mercedes could be a fair bit ahead now post Monaco.
Last edited by lamo on Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kleefton
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by kleefton »

Zoue wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
lamo wrote:
A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
Probably because they judged it before Baku... In Baku it is very clear which car is better. If we judged it on everything that just happened, then immediately after Monaco, surely we would be calling Ferrari was dominant? Its the season long performance.

To me, the Mercedes is now ahead at more of the tracks, they are winning the development race.
From what we saw in Monaco and Canada, its pretty clear that the Merc is the faster car on the straights and the Ferrari is the better car on corners, and Baku is totally a power track, so the Mercedes being comfortably ahead was expected, and I expect a borefest tomorrow with the Mercedes comfortably finishing 1-2 (unless some accident happens)
Well, the Merc was faster in the other sectors, too, so I don't think they are giving anything away in the corners here
Yeah, because they have more power so they can ramp up the downforce around Baku and still be fast on the straights.

Austria will be another mercedes track. I don' think Ferrari will be able to respond until Hungary. We shall see...

Migen
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Migen »

F1_Ernie wrote:Automotorsport also say Mercedes engineers believe that Ferrari has now a better engine than them.
Where's the British bias?
Why does it have to be bias? There may be plenty of other reasons... like, "big up" your closest competition in order to lower their guard, work-rate or their development rate.

Unless they truly believe that, as long as Ferrari is ONLY a full second behind Mercedes (not 2 seconds) in a very engine depending track, surely Ferrari engine must be the better one... NOT!?

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nixxxon
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by nixxxon »

kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
lamo wrote:
A.J. wrote:Merc just had a 1.1 second/lap advantage in quali over the fastest Ferrari....how anyone can claim the Ferrari is a faster car is beyond me.
Probably because they judged it before Baku... In Baku it is very clear which car is better. If we judged it on everything that just happened, then immediately after Monaco, surely we would be calling Ferrari was dominant? Its the season long performance.

To me, the Mercedes is now ahead at more of the tracks, they are winning the development race.
From what we saw in Monaco and Canada, its pretty clear that the Merc is the faster car on the straights and the Ferrari is the better car on corners, and Baku is totally a power track, so the Mercedes being comfortably ahead was expected, and I expect a borefest tomorrow with the Mercedes comfortably finishing 1-2 (unless some accident happens)
Well, the Merc was faster in the other sectors, too, so I don't think they are giving anything away in the corners here
Yeah, because they have more power so they can ramp up the downforce around Baku and still be fast on the straights.

Austria will be another mercedes track. I don' think Ferrari will be able to respond until Hungary. We shall see...
I agree with Austria (although the difference will be smaller) but I'm not sure about Silverstone, its a bit of a twisty track with some low speed corners.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

Vettel could bleed serious points per race if Mercedes are able to 1-2 their strong races (-10), also Vettels engine situation isn't looking great. He is surely going to have no engine upgrades late in the year or take a penalty too.

The title is possibly swinging to Mercedes, Ferrari surely can not let Kimi finsih ahead of Vettel tomorrow.

KingVoid
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by KingVoid »

I reckon that this so-called title fight is only in our head and that Mercedes will pull well clear of Ferrari very soon (like right now).

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by kleefton »

nixxxon wrote:


I agree with Austria (although the difference will be smaller) but I'm not sure about Silverstone, its a bit of a twisty track with some low speed corners.
Yeah forgot about Silverstone. I see it as a toss up, with a slight edge to the Merc in qualifying, but the race should be a lot more interesting.
Ferrari HAS to win in Hungary though, otherwise the title race is over in my book.

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mds
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by mds »

KingVoid wrote:I reckon that this so-called title fight is only in our head and that Mercedes will pull well clear of Ferrari very soon (like right now).
This was my idea already after Russia: the Mercedes is potentially the fastest car. If and when they get on top of tyres/setup, it's over for Ferrari.
And if that happens, I'll be switching off. I absolutely cannot stand to watch another period of their domination.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

It was a strange one really. Seb has an old ICE, 3000km on it (ICE1), he complained of no tow and yet he was only 2ths off Lewis in the power hungry S3.

They lost more time in the other sectors so I think today was tyre related. AMuS reported earlier in the season that Mercedes like it when the tyres are a little harder and Ferrari softer. On this track Pirelli brought far too hard a compound and had high tyre pressures too yesterday but I haven't read if they lowered them.

Track suits Mercedes long wheelbase in S1 especially as well so I think the gap is a cumulative effort between tyres,Merc car and old PU really so I wouldn't start worrying about the season yet.

Big concern over reliability though and if Mercedes really are on top of their issues in general then I think they'll keep an advantage.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

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nixxxon
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by nixxxon »

Lotus49 wrote:It was a strange one really. Seb has an old ICE, 3000km on it (ICE1), he complained of no tow and yet he was only 2ths off Lewis in the power hungry S3.
Lower aero on Ferrari probably?

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by sandman1347 »

A couple of things:
1-The Mercedes has an edge at the high speed circuits at the moment like Canada and Baku. Definitely their PU can still crank out the most power but we'll see how much of their edge carries over to the race tomorrow.
2-It's worth keeping an eye on things moving forward. It's also possible that, after the low point in Monaco, Mercedes have actually moved ahead in the arms race overall.

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Lotus49
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

nixxxon wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:It was a strange one really. Seb has an old ICE, 3000km on it (ICE1), he complained of no tow and yet he was only 2ths off Lewis in the power hungry S3.
Lower aero on Ferrari probably?
There'll be some drag differences for sure but they were both running their low downforce wings as far as I can tell. AMuS are pretty convinced Ferrari are there power wise, they topped S1 in Spain and S3 in Canada as well.

Seb's unit is the one that started Australia so doesn't even have the Spain update, it's quite impressive to be only 2ths back there.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

sandman1347
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by sandman1347 »

Lotus49 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:It was a strange one really. Seb has an old ICE, 3000km on it (ICE1), he complained of no tow and yet he was only 2ths off Lewis in the power hungry S3.
Lower aero on Ferrari probably?
There'll be some drag differences for sure but they were both running their low downforce wings as far as I can tell. AMuS are pretty convinced Ferrari are there power wise, they topped S1 in Spain and S3 in Canada as well.

Seb's unit is the one that started Australia so doesn't even have the Spain update, it's quite impressive to be only 2ths back there.
By my calculations Seb is well into the realm where he will have some penalties later in the season. Funny how reliability cost Hamilton the title last year but might win him the title this year.

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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by Lotus49 »

sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:It was a strange one really. Seb has an old ICE, 3000km on it (ICE1), he complained of no tow and yet he was only 2ths off Lewis in the power hungry S3.
Lower aero on Ferrari probably?
There'll be some drag differences for sure but they were both running their low downforce wings as far as I can tell. AMuS are pretty convinced Ferrari are there power wise, they topped S1 in Spain and S3 in Canada as well.

Seb's unit is the one that started Australia so doesn't even have the Spain update, it's quite impressive to be only 2ths back there.
By my calculations Seb is well into the realm where he will have some penalties later in the season. Funny how reliability cost Hamilton the title last year but might win him the title this year.
That's Ferrari's weak point it looks like yeah, around the turbo at least. They probably need to run in their highest modes to challenge and don't quite have the fixes in place to run them as reliably as Mercedes because this'll be the first season they've run them.

Their ICE must be bulletproof to keep risking that ICE 1 though, hell of a gamble if you ask me.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

sandman1347
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Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by sandman1347 »

Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:It was a strange one really. Seb has an old ICE, 3000km on it (ICE1), he complained of no tow and yet he was only 2ths off Lewis in the power hungry S3.
Lower aero on Ferrari probably?
There'll be some drag differences for sure but they were both running their low downforce wings as far as I can tell. AMuS are pretty convinced Ferrari are there power wise, they topped S1 in Spain and S3 in Canada as well.

Seb's unit is the one that started Australia so doesn't even have the Spain update, it's quite impressive to be only 2ths back there.
By my calculations Seb is well into the realm where he will have some penalties later in the season. Funny how reliability cost Hamilton the title last year but might win him the title this year.
That's Ferrari's weak point it looks like yeah, around the turbo at least. They probably need to run in their highest modes to challenge and don't quite have the fixes in place to run them as reliably as Mercedes because this'll be the first season they've run them.

Their ICE must be bulletproof to keep risking that ICE 1 though, hell of a gamble if you ask me.
Agreed and a blow up would be extremely costly in the points race. It's a difficult situation now reliability-wise for them.

lamo

Re: Ferrari/Mercedes has the faster car? (post barcelona &

Post by lamo »

sandman1347 wrote: By my calculations Seb is well into the realm where he will have some penalties later in the season. Funny how reliability cost Hamilton the title last year but might win him the title this year.
Indeed,

But within the same team its pot luck if one driver has issues and the other doesn't. Across teams it can be down to other things such as Ferrari pushing too hard, taking too many risks and favouring speed over reliability. The classic example being Mclaren vs Renault in 2005

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