[Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

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JonA
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[Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by JonA »

So both Brundle and Croft on Sky Sports F1 as well as a number of journalists have touted the idea of making Qualifying a sprint race affair (if the FOM/FIA are determined to mix-up the qualifying format). I know the idea in general is divisive but lets examine some hypothetical ideas for structuring such a concept.

Here's my proposal:

1) A 60 minute sprint race (no set race distance or set number of laps, just a 60 min countdown clock).

2) Grid order determined by championship order but with the top ten in reverse - so the current championship leader starts 10th on the grid. I myself don't have much of a problem with reverse grids as a concept but I know many purists do. I think just the top 10 in reverse order would be fine as it'd stop the slower pay drivers in the minor teams getting swamped at the start of the race and potentially being a hazard.

3) No fuel flow regulations. If the driver wants to drive flat out for 60 mins then he can.

4) No pitstops, you race on one set of tyres. Compound of the driver's choice (of the 3 compounds Pirelli bring for the race weekend). The driver submits a request for what tyres he wants for the sprint race to the FIA directly and Pirelli then supply one set to the team. Coming in to the pits is only allowed to serve penalities, to retire or if the car has suffered a mechanical issues/puncture and the race director shows the black and orange flag to the driver.

5) Strict restrictions on radio communications - specifically no instructions at all from the pit wall regarding tyre temps, pressures.

6) Points awarded for the top 5 (10 points for the win, 8 for second, 6 for third, 4 for fourth, 2 for fifth). Bonus 5 points for fastest lap.

Those last 4 in particular I think would put the onus on the driver and their abilities by encouraging them to flex their competitive muscles without hindrance.

As for the main feature race on the Sunday. The point of the sprint race would be to determine the grid order for the main race. We could leave it at that and the result from the sprint race is the grid for the main race.

But, as I mentioned, I myself have no issue with reverse grids and I think it would be interesting to re-apply the top 10 reverse order concept again. So whoever won the sprint race begins in 10th and so on.

At the very least it'll put the onus on the championship contenders to constantly be "proving" their credentials by making them do over-taking.

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Badgeronimous
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Badgeronimous »

I could stomach a sprint race. Infact.... it may even enhance the sport if done correctly.

Emphasis on done correctly. I've little faith F1 will implement such an idea correctly.

I've been thinking about it for a few weeks and my idea was along the lines of yours.

60 Minute Sprint Race
Reverse championship order starting grid (although I see merit in the top 10 reversed for reason stated in OP)
Pit stops allowed
Points awarded akin to the previous system (10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1)

It would probably mean the 'Grand Prix' on Sunday would need to have points awarded looked at too. However increasing points and scaling down to 15th place is probably palatable.

I say that as winning the Grand Prix should always be worth more points on it's own than winning the Sprint Race, then finishing 2nd in the Grand Prix

Perhaps
40 - 28 - 22 - 18 - 15 - 12 - 10 - 8 - 7 - 6 - 5 - 4 -3 - 2 - 1

I dunno... I'm not a rule maker.
Last edited by Badgeronimous on Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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nixxxon
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by nixxxon »

This would be like a second race and only for setting up the grid for the "final race". I cant see it being done although I like the idea of reversing them based on the championship standings

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Richard86 »

I think a shorter time maybe 45 mins and a special tyre that will last when pushed, would promote Pirelli in a better light as well and its what the drivers want so win win

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by JonA »

nixxxon wrote:This would be like a second race and only for setting up the grid for the "final race". I cant see it being done although I like the idea of reversing them based on the championship standings


Sprint and feature races have been quite successful in GP2 for a while.

But I agree there would have to be motivation for the drivers and teams to take it seriously. Hence the awarding of points (but not to the extent of the Grand Prix) for the results. That said it would mean having to look at how to make the Sunday Grand Prix being more prestigious than the saturday Sprint Race - otherwise I agree my idea is just making the event a two part, two day Grand Prix.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by UnlikeUday »

The 2 lap aggregate is so much like how A1 GP grid was decided.
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JonA
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by JonA »

Richard86 wrote:I think a shorter time maybe 45 mins and a special tyre that will last when pushed, would promote Pirelli in a better light as well and its what the drivers want so win win


I like that. A durable but soft race tyre. But I still think the drivers should be encouraged to make it last the whole race and only be allowed to change on to a new set if they pick up a puncture.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Zoue »

Any sprint race would have an impact upon components. PUs have to last for 5 races, so now they will have the added burden of sprint races to contend with? Same with tyre allocations etc. Any such plan would have to make fundamental changes to other areas of the regulations

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by JonA »

Zoue wrote:Any sprint race would have an impact upon components. PUs have to last for 5 races, so now they will have the added burden of sprint races to contend with? Same with tyre allocations etc. Any such plan would have to make fundamental changes to other areas of the regulations


Not sure I agree they'd be fundemental but certainly it would require the teams to think further about reliability. Although the PUs already have to contend with the strain of qualifying for 45 odd minutes on a Saturday anyway so it shouldn't be that big of an ask.

Pirelli can easily bring an extra set or two of tyres for each driver specifically for the sprint race. Or even a couple of sets of the above suggested "special sprint race compound".

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Zoue »

JonA wrote:
Zoue wrote:Any sprint race would have an impact upon components. PUs have to last for 5 races, so now they will have the added burden of sprint races to contend with? Same with tyre allocations etc. Any such plan would have to make fundamental changes to other areas of the regulations


Not sure I agree they'd be fundemental but certainly it would require the teams to think further about reliability. Although the PUs already have to contend with the strain of qualifying for 45 odd minutes on a Saturday anyway so it shouldn't be that big of an ask.

Pirelli can easily bring an extra set or two of tyres for each driver specifically for the sprint race. Or even a couple of sets of the above suggested "special sprint race compound".

But how many laps do they do during the 45 odd minutes on a Saturday? And how many of those at speed? Half a dozen max (and that only for the front runners)? A sprint race on the lines of what has been suggested above would subject the cars to significantly more continuous stress over a much longer period. I mean, an hour is basically half a Grand Prix, more in many circumstances, which means everything would have to last 50% more than it does now. I think they'd need to change the PU and gearbox allocation, which would have pretty serious cost implications.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by mikeyg123 »

My ideal would be a 1/3 length sprint race, no stops allowed. Grid is the reverse of the championship order. Now that would be gimmicky but extremely exciting.

But as Zoue said. Something like that would require a rewrite of other regs.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by mac_d »

1) 60 minute sprint race? Isn't Monza usually like 70 minutes? I think it might look rather bizarre to have that. And racing increases the chances of contact or running wide etc and breaking parts and all the rest. If they do this, I think they'd need to bring back the t-car. Given I'm not a fan of this set up, I can't really comment on the rest of the points.

On Qualy: I say switch back to the format of last year. I don't get why it was changed. When they added the extra tire set for Q3 to stop folk just sitting in the garage, they eliminated a big problem with it. While yeah, generally the top teams go out, do a run then go back in, we usually did have cars on track and a bit of a drama etc.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by ALESI »

I'm not against this idea, but we will need T-Cars. If one of the big names has a major off on Saturday and then can't race on Sunday because he's not allowed to have a spare car, that would again make the sport look stupid. But then the team's should be allowed to have a spare car anyway (what's the point of them having to build one overnight?).
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Invade
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Invade »

They should qualify in fast go-karts all of the same spec and then use the real cars in the race.

I'm being half serious.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by hd23 »

Invade wrote:They should qualify in fast go-karts all of the same spec and then use the real cars in the race.

I'm being half serious.


Or just use GP2 cars :-P

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by j man »

mikeyg123 wrote:My ideal would be a 1/3 length sprint race, no stops allowed. Grid is the reverse of the championship order. Now that would be gimmicky but extremely exciting.

But as Zoue said. Something like that would require a rewrite of other regs.

I think that's a good idea. They can then reverse the points scorers to form the starting order for the 'feature race' as they do in GP2. The biggest advantage is that it's a tried and tested format that has been proven to work. If Bernie and co really are determined to mix up the starting order then I'd much prefer this method over the current approach to trying to contrive a qualifying format that doesn't sort the cars into pace order.

Overall though I'd rather have normal qualifying with no silly gimmicks in it. A contest of who's fastest over a single lap is a great feature of the race weekend and we'd miss it if it was gone.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by red_baron »

One race for WDC one for WCC? Whilst we're throwing ideas around...
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Herb »

Personally, I think I'd love a one third distance sprint race for qually position.

Not sure how I'd determini grid position for this race, maybe top 10 reverses to give us a bit of a race.

Purists would hate it though.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by WHoff78 »

Reverse Top 10 would potentially see a big divide open up between 10th and the rest - not the end of the world perhaps but something to consider.

How about remove the start - that way you remove the major chance of cars getting tangled up which would be a harsh reason to start from the back of the grid on Sunday. Just do complete reverse order, and start the cars from the pits - one every 2 seconds or something, and just let them race from there? Or just treat the formation lap like a safety car start - that way most would have a shot at the guy in front but be kept reasonably separated.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Exediron »

I don't like the sprint race idea fundamentally, because for me it cheapens the gravitas of the actual Grand Prix. If a Formula 1 race can be something quick and with little impact it takes something intangible away from the sport for me.
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

There should only be one race, the Grand Prix. Everything during the weekend should support and build up to the one climax when the red lights go out. Grand Prix, one race, one prestigious race, not diluted by any others.

And if Formula One stages two races on each race weekend, then which one is the most important, the most relevant in motor racing history?

Here we go again, attempting to put on a band aid while we should try to fix the disease. Qualifying sucks, fix it. Make it exciting again.
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by JonA »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here we go again, attempting to put on a band aid while we should try to fix the disease. Qualifying sucks, fix it. Make it exciting again.


I agree. So what would you like to see for Qualifying to make it exciting?

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Zoue »

JonA wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here we go again, attempting to put on a band aid while we should try to fix the disease. Qualifying sucks, fix it. Make it exciting again.


I agree. So what would you like to see for Qualifying to make it exciting?

I'd like to see them stop trying to make it more exciting....

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

JonA wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here we go again, attempting to put on a band aid while we should try to fix the disease. Qualifying sucks, fix it. Make it exciting again.


I agree. So what would you like to see for Qualifying to make it exciting?


Just go back to the previous iteration that had little complaints from the fans.

IMO this whole mess is caused by the big teams attempting to placate the lesser teams who made a lot of noise last year about the unequal distribution of funds. This is why the elimination format, on paper each of the lesser team's cars would get their 90 seconds of air time, and make sponsors happier. The lesser teams have the opportunity to make more money via increased exposure and thus more sponsors.

So the qualifying format was changed because of the unfair distribution of funds, which lead to the present qualifying format, which now seems like the teams can't agree on. This is a textbook example on how to grow a clusterf--k bush. Mix in politics where the governance is flawed, sprinkle on some fertilizer of an unequal distribution system, and we get to enjoy such bitter fruit.
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by j man »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
JonA wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here we go again, attempting to put on a band aid while we should try to fix the disease. Qualifying sucks, fix it. Make it exciting again.


I agree. So what would you like to see for Qualifying to make it exciting?


Just go back to the previous iteration that had little complaints from the fans.

IMO this whole mess is caused by the big teams attempting to placate the lesser teams who made a lot of noise last year about the unequal distribution of funds. This is why the elimination format, on paper each of the lesser team's cars would get their 90 seconds of air time, and make sponsors happier. The lesser teams have the opportunity to make more money via increased exposure and thus more sponsors.

So the qualifying format was changed because of the unfair distribution of funds, which lead to the present qualifying format, which now seems like the teams can't agree on. This is a textbook example on how to grow a clusterf--k bush. Mix in politics where the governance is flawed, sprinkle on some fertilizer of an unequal distribution system, and we get to enjoy such bitter fruit.

Interesting thought but aren't the teams quite unanimous in wanting a return to last year's format? I simply got the impression Bernie and Todt have been pushing the qualifying change because they (or CVC) think that mixing up the grid a bit is way to make F1 better. I am not sure Bernie gives two stuffs about the backmarker teams.

Having said that, Manor got some good exposure in Q1 in Bahrain when Wehrlein was trying get himself out of trouble.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

It's just my personal theory on why the qualifying format was initially changed. Last year I don't recall any major complaints. But I try to figure out why things happen. In my mind, having last year's loud and ugly noises by the lesser teams made both the big teams and Bernie uncomfortable. So they came up with this scheme where the lesser teams get more TV exposure, and it would have a minor effect on the big teams.

But of course, the qualifying in Melbourne was a complete disaster, and the most recent one wasn't much better. Everyone agreed that it had to be changed, but a stalemate occurred when some teams didn't agree on what changes to make. Which leads back to one more serious flaw in how Formula One is run, there are so many different organizations in the position to affect decisions, the end result nothing happened.

No matter what the format, qualifying should build as time goes on, reaching a climax of excitement and thrills on the final moments. I'm pretty sure most agree that they desire to see the last two or four cars hammering it out on the very last lap, and as the cars cross the finish line for the last time, do we get to see who succeeded and who didn't.

And the engine regulations. If a team is sitting pretty at the end of Q3, even if there is time available, because of engine reliability issues, they park their cars.
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by WHoff78 »

Not saying I agree with a Sprint Race specifically, but I really don’t see the issue with change – always hard to take for the purists but no different to other sports and realms of life. The fact is that most things constantly evolve, and if they didn’t then they would get left behind. The tecnnical regs evolve so why should the sporting regulations be any different. Many other sports have gone through similar processes in the not too distant past and you will always get those who agree and those who disagree.

What is ridiculous is that they make such significant changes with such little thought or planning. And right at the so called top level of motorsport. Perhaps it would make more sense to stick with what they have, or had, until they test some sensibly tabled ideas in lower classification forms of the sport, to give them a better understanding of the implications. Anyway, think we may have to get used to the mess we have as unfortunately it doesn’t look like it’s going to just go away.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by WHoff78 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:No matter what the format, qualifying should build as time goes on, reaching a climax of excitement and thrills on the final moments. I'm pretty sure most agree that they desire to see the last two or four cars hammering it out on the very last lap, and as the cars cross the finish line for the last time, do we get to see who succeeded and who didn't.

Couldn't agree more with this point. Don't think you could ever guarantee this from a sprint race, and is a massive reason for keeping qualifying as a measure of fastest lap.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Amon »

WHoff78 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:No matter what the format, qualifying should build as time goes on, reaching a climax of excitement and thrills on the final moments. I'm pretty sure most agree that they desire to see the last two or four cars hammering it out on the very last lap, and as the cars cross the finish line for the last time, do we get to see who succeeded and who didn't.

Couldn't agree more with this point. Don't think you could ever guarantee this from a sprint race, and is a massive reason for keeping qualifying as a measure of fastest lap.


Well in this case they could just revert back to the old format without sessions and elimination there we also had a build-up and the best action in the closing minutes. But of course most people hate it when there is little action the first half hour.

It's actually ridiculous we are discussing qualifying so much as it is not really supposed to be the most interesting thing on a race weekend (bar perhaps Monaco), it grants no points and only serves to decide the grid order.
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by jasonthebadger »

hd23 wrote:
Invade wrote:They should qualify in fast go-karts all of the same spec and then use the real cars in the race.

I'm being half serious.


Or just use GP2 cars :-P


That would be cheap for McLaren, just roll out their 2015 cars :lol:
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by moby »

If we are speculating, how about this. A sprint race Jim, but not as we know it

Session 1 all cars get a flying lap.

Session 2 max 20 laps. Cars leave the pits in order from slowest time, 3 seconds apart.

When a car gets caught, which ever car and where ever it is, it is out. Cars could be something like .5 seconds to trigger? Then must pull over and allow to pass.

Session 3 any remaining cars get to set a time in the last lap, with the tyres and fuel they have to decide the start order.

Back markers get coverage
Leaders get even more.
Viewers and TV get constant action

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by ALESI »

Just supposing they did this, what if it was actually better than the proper race?
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by bsanderson »

Zoue wrote:
JonA wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Here we go again, attempting to put on a band aid while we should try to fix the disease. Qualifying sucks, fix it. Make it exciting again.


I agree. So what would you like to see for Qualifying to make it exciting?

I'd like to see them stop trying to make it more exciting....


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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by paulsf1fix »

So would the fastest lap times in the sprint races determine the grid for Sunday?

Could the Saturday 'race' have it's own championship table? or would that be confusing, I'm a little bit against the idea otherwise the Championship could be won on the Saturday and the Sunday would be or could become an anti climax. Why bother watching the main event?

I know it was pretty funny last year when Alonso compared his car as like a GP2 one but I wonder if they could make F1 cars like them to create closer / better racing like GP2 does, I know this should be in a different thread but a lot of the drivers are against next years rule changes. Also (another thread for this might be better) the racing so far this year has been pretty good, I just hope what they do for next year to liven things up won't effect the actual racing.

The GP2 race weekend does work but whether it will work for F1 I really do not know.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by SirCharles »

I like it, great idea. I would not invert the feature race. :-P

JonA wrote:So both Brundle and Croft on Sky Sports F1 as well as a number of journalists have touted the idea of making Qualifying a sprint race affair (if the FOM/FIA are determined to mix-up the qualifying format). I know the idea in general is divisive but lets examine some hypothetical ideas for structuring such a concept.

Here's my proposal:

1) A 60 minute sprint race (no set race distance or set number of laps, just a 60 min countdown clock).

2) Grid order determined by championship order but with the top ten in reverse - so the current championship leader starts 10th on the grid. I myself don't have much of a problem with reverse grids as a concept but I know many purists do. I think just the top 10 in reverse order would be fine as it'd stop the slower pay drivers in the minor teams getting swamped at the start of the race and potentially being a hazard.

3) No fuel flow regulations. If the driver wants to drive flat out for 60 mins then he can.

4) No pitstops, you race on one set of tyres. Compound of the driver's choice (of the 3 compounds Pirelli bring for the race weekend). The driver submits a request for what tyres he wants for the sprint race to the FIA directly and Pirelli then supply one set to the team. Coming in to the pits is only allowed to serve penalities, to retire or if the car has suffered a mechanical issues/puncture and the race director shows the black and orange flag to the driver.

5) Strict restrictions on radio communications - specifically no instructions at all from the pit wall regarding tyre temps, pressures.

6) Points awarded for the top 5 (10 points for the win, 8 for second, 6 for third, 4 for fourth, 2 for fifth). Bonus 5 points for fastest lap.

Those last 4 in particular I think would put the onus on the driver and their abilities by encouraging them to flex their competitive muscles without hindrance.

As for the main feature race on the Sunday. The point of the sprint race would be to determine the grid order for the main race. We could leave it at that and the result from the sprint race is the grid for the main race.

But, as I mentioned, I myself have no issue with reverse grids and I think it would be interesting to re-apply the top 10 reverse order concept again. So whoever won the sprint race begins in 10th and so on.

At the very least it'll put the onus on the championship contenders to constantly be "proving" their credentials by making them do over-taking.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by HS Thompson »

How was qualifying done in 1967? Anyone know?

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by tootsie323 »

HS Thompson wrote:How was qualifying done in 1967? Anyone know?
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by pokerman »

HS Thompson wrote:How was qualifying done in 1967? Anyone know?

They used this outdated system of seeing who was the fastest and then he started at the front.
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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by Alex53 »

It worked. We are all talking about qualifying instead of how hopelessly bad the situation is in other areas.

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Re: [Lets discuss]Sprint race qualifying idea...

Post by HS Thompson »

tootsie323 wrote:
HS Thompson wrote:How was qualifying done in 1967? Anyone know?
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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