Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Muzzyf1
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by Muzzyf1 »

indianajones wrote:Well ... A few years ago Ferrari replaced Kimi with Alonso and suggested that Alonso has a whole lot more to offer. They said his one day feedback on the car is better than what Kimi did in three years....

Lets see where the championship score stands

Raikkonen/Ferrari - 1
Alonso/ Ferrari - 0

Joke is on you Scuderia Ferrari !!!!


I think joke its on you! This is one of the dumbest threads I've seen on planetF1!

Consider this Raikkonen had the faster car so where did he finish relevant top alonso this year and how many points adrift?

Only a fool would say what you've spewed out! '

Muzzyf1
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by Muzzyf1 »

Darkwing wrote:
ferrar1sta wrote:Hilarious all the people talking about Massa giving points to Alonso. How many times this season has Massa even been close to Alonso?


Austin and Brazil, just to name the last 2. Without team orders, Massa would have finished in front of Alonso, hence Alonso would have gotten less points than he currently has.



Ladies and gentleman we have a live one here! Fair dinkum!

SwSpeed
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by SwSpeed »

ferrar1sta wrote:
SwSpeed wrote:
ferrar1sta wrote:
Darkwing wrote:
ferrar1sta wrote:Hilarious all the people talking about Massa giving points to Alonso. How many times this season has Massa even been close to Alonso?


Austin and Brazil, just to name the last 2. Without team orders, Massa would have finished in front of Alonso, hence Alonso would have gotten less points than he currently has.

Well done, we all already knew that. Can you name any instances before the last two races? That doesn't come anywhere close to Massa having basically carried Alonso to within 3 points of the title. How many points did Massa take off Vettel compared to points Webber took off Alonso? :uhoh:


Pal, you don't have a clue what we are taking about here. Ferrari forgot how to be a team. And you as a Ferrari fan should understand it because you are not Alonso fan are you?

As a team you have 2 drivers to support. The other to win and the other to take points from competition. Ferrari forgot that. That is why we are standing with nothing.
Right; Ferrari just completely ignored Felipe for the majority of the season, and then suddenly decided to leap back onto his wagon after he had absolutely no chance of getting into the title race. Or maybe I shouldn't explain assumptions, can you explain your logic here?


Yes. Felipe was ignored and they realized this later in the season when they needed his help. Typical bad management.

Ferrari needs a proper management. Last good senior manager there were Jean Todt.
..

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open

SwSpeed
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by SwSpeed »

Muzzyf1 wrote:
indianajones wrote:Well ... A few years ago Ferrari replaced Kimi with Alonso and suggested that Alonso has a whole lot more to offer. They said his one day feedback on the car is better than what Kimi did in three years....

Lets see where the championship score stands

Raikkonen/Ferrari - 1
Alonso/ Ferrari - 0

Joke is on you Scuderia Ferrari !!!!


I think joke its on you! This is one of the dumbest threads I've seen on planetF1!

Consider this Raikkonen had the faster car so where did he finish relevant top alonso this year and how many points adrift?

Only a fool would say what you've spewed out! '


There is no fool here. That is a hard fact. The results are not here hence they changed the driver to "one who can work to develop the car". Three years later?
..

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open

az1
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by az1 »

It's worse than that because including all titles it is...

Kimi & Massa 3
Alonso & Massa 0

To be fair, Fernando has been unlucky not to win a WDC title. But I think the fact that Ferrari have won zero WCC titles with him is poetic justice.

NvrDieYoung
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by NvrDieYoung »

az1 wrote:It's worse than that because including all titles it is...

Kimi & Massa 3
Alonso & Massa 0

To be fair, Fernando has been unlucky not to win a WDC title. But I think the fact that Ferrari have won zero WCC titles with him is poetic justice.


when you receive over 200+millions sponsorship from a bank that back 1 of your driver, you can hardly practice equalization.

Alonso threw it away in 2010 by performing badly on first half of the season

Alonso threw it again in 2012 on Suzuka by forcing kimi out of track, something that he despise so much when others did it to him.

az1
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by az1 »

NvrDieYoung wrote:
az1 wrote:It's worse than that because including all titles it is...

Kimi & Massa 3
Alonso & Massa 0

To be fair, Fernando has been unlucky not to win a WDC title. But I think the fact that Ferrari have won zero WCC titles with him is poetic justice.


when you receive over 200+millions sponsorship from a bank that back 1 of your driver, you can hardly practice equalization.

Alonso threw it away in 2010 by performing badly on first half of the season

Alonso threw it again in 2012 on Suzuka by forcing kimi out of track, something that he despise so much when others did it to him.


Well, it's not Alonso's fault that he brings the title sponsor with him to Ferrari but I see your point and I think it puts an extra weight of expectation on his shoulders. My point really is that Ferrari were more successful when they were +not+ 100% focused on one driver at the expense of the other. Do I expect them to change now? No chance.

lab105
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by lab105 »

Ferrari's next drivers title will be when Vettel is driving for them, wish he wouldn't go to the team, but unfortunately he'll be there sooner or later.

trento
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by trento »

I agree Alonso is better than Kimi. But Ferrari was crazy to let go their champion. You can also say they were terribly unlucky in 2008 and 2010. I don't rate this year as unlucky as Ferrari was simply slower.

az1
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by az1 »

trento wrote:I agree Alonso is better than Kimi. But Ferrari was crazy to let go their champion. You can also say they were terribly unlucky in 2008 and 2010. I don't rate this year as unlucky as Ferrari was simply slower.


I don't think they had any choice. Santander/Alonso had no interest in a competitive teammate. Can you imagine Kimi going along with all the crap that Massa has? I don't think so. For Ferrari, it was a cynical decision based primarily on money and, for once in life, it hasn't paid off. The question is, how long can the relationship last without a title? There were signs of cracks after India, if they begin next season with an uncompetitive car... who knows what will happen.

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ManojHS
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by ManojHS »

Lotus38 wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
ferrar1sta wrote:Hilarious all the people talking about Massa giving points to Alonso. How many times this season has Massa even been close to Alonso? That would be a valid argument if he'd been in position to affect the title race; indeed, Alonso might have won if Massa had taken points away from his rivals.


maybe if they focus more on massa earlier can sort out his issues, he would hv helped fernando more on 1st half of the season??


And who says they did not focus on Massa ealier on? Can you just not accept that maybe they did what they did (including build a whole new chassis for him) and he was just not up to it? This talk of Ferrari deliberately thwarting Massa is beyond belief...


And who says they did focus equally on Massa. The difference between his performance in Valencia compared to say Japan when he was lapping close to Vettel is ridiculously huge. I've seen drivers progressively improving, for example Kimi had issues with his steering which got better and better throughout the season, Schumacher also steadily improved over 2 years from being consistently 0.4s off the pace to being ahead.. But Massa's mega leap in performance is absurd and abnormal. They put the same upgrades on Alonso but his quali position was consistently around 5-6-7 whereas Massa started beating Alonso.

The 'resurgence' was right after Ferrari were being bombarded with questions about their no2 for next year. LdM made it clear with his 'rooster in hen house' analogy that Ferrari will not have 2 no1 drivers. Alonso admitted himself he has a say in who partners him for 2013 and there were rumors from Italian sources that Alonso did not want Perez in Ferrari. Alonso also openly admitted he will do his part in helping Felipe keep his seat. It is quite possible Alonso's internal politics helped provide better internal resources and help with setup for a short period of time. I'm not telling Ferrari just assembled a car and asked Massa to go whatever he wants but the shift in performance is too large to be attributed on either tires, setup or upgrades etc.. Felipe got what he had in 2008 for the last few races and if I have this right, he will be back to square one next year and people will again blame the car and appreciate Alonso.

trento
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by trento »

az1 wrote:
trento wrote:I agree Alonso is better than Kimi. But Ferrari was crazy to let go their champion. You can also say they were terribly unlucky in 2008 and 2010. I don't rate this year as unlucky as Ferrari was simply slower.


I don't think they had any choice. Santander/Alonso had no interest in a competitive teammate. Can you imagine Kimi going along with all the crap that Massa has? I don't think so. For Ferrari, it was a cynical decision based primarily on money and, for once in life, it hasn't paid off. The question is, how long can the relationship last without a title? There were signs of cracks after India, if they begin next season with an uncompetitive car... who knows what will happen.


i think the cracks showed in Alonso's pace, particularly in the last 2 races. He was simply slower than Massa. But there are not top seats available in the next few years so I believe Alonso will see out his years in Ferrari, losing to RB or Mclaren of course.

az1
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by az1 »

trento wrote:
az1 wrote:
trento wrote:I agree Alonso is better than Kimi. But Ferrari was crazy to let go their champion. You can also say they were terribly unlucky in 2008 and 2010. I don't rate this year as unlucky as Ferrari was simply slower.


I don't think they had any choice. Santander/Alonso had no interest in a competitive teammate. Can you imagine Kimi going along with all the crap that Massa has? I don't think so. For Ferrari, it was a cynical decision based primarily on money and, for once in life, it hasn't paid off. The question is, how long can the relationship last without a title? There were signs of cracks after India, if they begin next season with an uncompetitive car... who knows what will happen.


i think the cracks showed in Alonso's pace, particularly in the last 2 races. He was simply slower than Massa. But there are not top seats available in the next few years so I believe Alonso will see out his years in Ferrari, losing to RB or Mclaren of course.


I've no doubt that Alonso would want to see out his years at Ferrari, he has burned too many bridges and has few options if any remaining. The question is, will Ferrari want to see out his contract. He is a great driver but Ferrari is Ferrari and to them, he is just a driver. If he continues to use the media for his own spin at the expense of the teams, it's going to grate. I think it all depends on Santander and their money. Of course, if they deliver him the best car next year and he wins the title... problem solved, but somehow I doubt that's going to happen.

callMEcrazy
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by callMEcrazy »

indianajones wrote:Well ... A few years ago Ferrari replaced Kimi with Alonso and suggested that Alonso has a whole lot more to offer. They said his one day feedback on the car is better than what Kimi did in three years....

Lets see where the championship score stands

Raikkonen/Ferrari - 1
Alonso/ Ferrari - 0

Joke is on you Scuderia Ferrari !!!!


nop... its still on you.
Image

NvrDieYoung
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by NvrDieYoung »

trento wrote:I agree Alonso is better than Kimi. But Ferrari was crazy to let go their champion. You can also say they were terribly unlucky in 2008 and 2010. I don't rate this year as unlucky as Ferrari was simply slower.


i doubt that. Kimi didn't really has much input on car development during his 3 years stint in ferrari, massa got the chances to fill up the void. And it costs kimi dearly in 2008.

The only aspect alonso is better than kimi is work rate.

Kimi is used to mclaren style working environment when the team is more active instead of being passive and require a leader to lead the team.

Thats why mclaren cant work with Alonso, and kimi cant work with ferrari.

Both of them went for wrong team on 2007..............

Unnamed
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by Unnamed »

RunningMan wrote:Oh dear.

Has it ever occured to you that

A) Other teams have designed a faster car and there is nothing Alonso could do about it?
B) Kimi has had better machinery in comparison to the competion than Alonso?


A)Ofcourse other team had a faster car in 2007...infact the very team he was in...
B)How did kimi had better machinery when kimi had reliability issues in ferrari and this year the ferrari was bulletproof...

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Usman
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by Usman »

I would say the whole logic behind this thread is wrong!!
KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

Jinx
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by Jinx »

RaisinChips wrote:Are you implying Räikkönen and Alonso designed those Ferraris they drove and Kimi designed a more competitive car?

maybe OP was implying that ferrari gave numerous questionable reasons for dumping Kimi over Fonzie. Both are fantastic drivers, no doubt, but the dumping execution was not very nice by Ferrari. They could have ended the relationship in a much nicer way, they chose to end it in such a bad way for Kimi.
FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

SwSpeed
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by SwSpeed »

Jinx wrote:
RaisinChips wrote:Are you implying Räikkönen and Alonso designed those Ferraris they drove and Kimi designed a more competitive car?

maybe OP was implying that ferrari gave numerous questionable reasons for dumping Kimi over Fonzie. Both are fantastic drivers, no doubt, but the dumping execution was not very nice by Ferrari. They could have ended the relationship in a much nicer way, they chose to end it in such a bad way for Kimi.


Heh, RaisinChips is trying to turn around the question if drivers develop cars. The obvious answer is NO. They give feedback to the engineers who fix problems.

So neither Alonso or Räikkönen design cars. They feedback to engineers who design based on the feedback. As far as we can see there is no change before or after so nothing has changed.

But as I have said numerous of times. Ferrari management is bad and needs a quick replace. In other words their team management sucks and it have done that since departure of Jean Todt. (Who is also the last team manager and champion at Ferrari)

Soon the team lack excuses so what will happen next?
..

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Jinx
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by Jinx »

SwSpeed wrote:
Jinx wrote:
RaisinChips wrote:Are you implying Räikkönen and Alonso designed those Ferraris they drove and Kimi designed a more competitive car?

maybe OP was implying that ferrari gave numerous questionable reasons for dumping Kimi over Fonzie. Both are fantastic drivers, no doubt, but the dumping execution was not very nice by Ferrari. They could have ended the relationship in a much nicer way, they chose to end it in such a bad way for Kimi.


Heh, RaisinChips is trying to turn around the question if drivers develop cars. The obvious answer is NO. They give feedback to the engineers who fix problems.

So neither Alonso or Räikkönen design cars. They feedback to engineers who design based on the feedback. As far as we can see there is no change before or after so nothing has changed.

But as I have said numerous of times. Ferrari management is bad and needs a quick replace. In other words their team management sucks and it have done that since departure of Jean Todt. (Who is also the last team manager and champion at Ferrari)

Soon the team lack excuses so what will happen next?


the entire team self -destructs??? that would make it my cup of tea :]
FORZA FERNANDO * FORZA FERRARI * FORZA FELIPE

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F1nsider
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Re: Alonso/Ferrari Vs Raikkonen/Ferrari

Post by F1nsider »

az1 wrote:
trento wrote:
az1 wrote:
trento wrote:I agree Alonso is better than Kimi. But Ferrari was crazy to let go their champion. You can also say they were terribly unlucky in 2008 and 2010. I don't rate this year as unlucky as Ferrari was simply slower.


I don't think they had any choice. Santander/Alonso had no interest in a competitive teammate. Can you imagine Kimi going along with all the crap that Massa has? I don't think so. For Ferrari, it was a cynical decision based primarily on money and, for once in life, it hasn't paid off. The question is, how long can the relationship last without a title? There were signs of cracks after India, if they begin next season with an uncompetitive car... who knows what will happen.


i think the cracks showed in Alonso's pace, particularly in the last 2 races. He was simply slower than Massa. But there are not top seats available in the next few years so I believe Alonso will see out his years in Ferrari, losing to RB or Mclaren of course.


I've no doubt that Alonso would want to see out his years at Ferrari, he has burned too many bridges and has few options if any remaining. The question is, will Ferrari want to see out his contract. He is a great driver but Ferrari is Ferrari and to them, he is just a driver. If he continues to use the media for his own spin at the expense of the teams, it's going to grate. I think it all depends on Santander and their money. Of course, if they deliver him the best car next year and he wins the title... problem solved, but somehow I doubt that's going to happen.


Ferrari has a fantastic driver in Alonso, they can't ask for more. Even if some would claim that Kimi is a better driver, by how much? nothing significant I'm sure.

As said in another thread, the problem in Ferrari isn't in their drivers, its in their approach. Now if they decide next year to give both drivers equal attention, Alonso's nerves will be tested only then we can say Ferrari is doing the right thing. And they're trying to fix their "bend-over-backwards" to Alonso approach since 2010.

I really want them to win next year's WCC, would be nice if Massa wins the WDC but I hope Alonso doesn't win it (simply because I don't like him :) )

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