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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 am
by Retro-Virus
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:20 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:29 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:18 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:20 am


Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!
Why did they change the racing line after qualifying?
You got your story wrong. The pole was always on the same side for years (it is easy to see the starts of the races from '88, '89, etc. on youtube, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Gw7fc ... munication and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-sAOj ... yrtonSenna).

It's just that because Senna had made a mess from the pole the years before, he wanted it changed. The narrative that the FIA changed the pole side to mess with Senna is a false one.
I am hearing your version for the first time.

Then, why did Senna say that "you bust your balls to get pole' and then they do this.
To my understanding, Senna knew the pole position was on the dirty side. He had fudged up the last two starts from there, while Berger did ok in 1987. It was something reasonable if you think about it, you bust your balls to get pole and the pole is on the dirty side. It's similar to Bottas preferring to go P3 instead of P2 in Bahrain, as P3 would give him a better chance.

The problem is that Senna went to the track officials and asked for the pole to be changed. They seem to have agreed, but it's like asking the waiter to change the menu on the restaurant because it's not to your liking; it's not them who make these decisions. So Senna believed that he got the pole changed, when in reality nothing as such was formally agreed. He then made a fuss that Balestre overturned the decision, when Balestre only gave an order that the pole will not change on the 11th hour. Senna also had bad blood with Balestre from the year before and saw red afterwards. The rest is history
:thumbup:

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:17 am
by Siao7
It's also quite cool to read Toet's article about what was going on with the "driver aids" in 1994. He has some very nice articles, I'd urge you to give them a look. Effectively (to my understanding) they created the driver aid effect, but legally. As other teams too that year.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:43 am
by A.J.
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:04 am
Anyway, I am not here to recycle anything. I don't think Senna and Schumacher are in the same level, just my opinion.

Regards,
RV
I agree with you here 100% - Schumacher is ahead for me. :nod:

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 am
by Retro-Virus
Any link?

I think it had to do with changing the braking towards the left pedal, right ? Anyway, it ended with him ramming into hill.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:06 pm
by Siao7
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 am
Any link?

I think it had to do with changing the braking towards the left pedal, right ? Anyway, it ended with him ramming into hill.
No, not really. Braking with his left foot was another thing altogether when other drivers were still doing heel and toe.

The article was this:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rota ... llem-toet/

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:16 pm
by Retro-Virus
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:06 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 am
Any link?

I think it had to do with changing the braking towards the left pedal, right ? Anyway, it ended with him ramming into hill.
No, not really. Braking with his left foot was another thing altogether when other drivers were still doing heel and toe.

The article was this:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rota ... llem-toet/
:thumbup:

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:48 am
by myattitude
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
This is not quite logically correct. I'd suggest that the reason Schumacher never had a WDC as his teammate is because he was the one winning most of them. JV, Hill and Mika weren't going to join him at Ferrari but if he wasn't driving, Rubens would be a 2xWDC, possibly a 4x WDC if inheriting Schumacher's role. Schumacher beat that would be 2-4x WDC quite soundly. Interesting how reputations pan out, but that's for another thread.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
by KingVoid
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 10:55 am
by Asphalt_World
KingVoid wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.
Hamilton let him?

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 pm
by Alienturnedhuman
KingVoid wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.
The WDC that people refer to Hamilton beating in the same car is Alonso in his prime.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 3:17 pm
by KingVoid
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 10:55 am
KingVoid wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.
Hamilton let him?
I mean, if it was not for crashing his car in Baku, his abysmal weekend in Singapore, or his numerous moonwalk starts, he could have certainly prevented it.

Hamilton did have bad luck that season, but 21 races is more than enough time to circumnavigate the points he lost due to misfortune.

This is why the whole argument about how “Hamilton beat 3 WDCs” is flawed. One of those became a WDC while in the same team as Hamilton. That should hurt his legacy, not help it.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:18 am
by Andy_S
Schumacher had a win-no-matter-what attitude, and if that meant disregarding the rules then so be it and for that reason I don't care how talented he was, naughty children who won't play fair don't deserve toys.

And the same goes for at least two other world champions who have deliberately used the car as a weapon: In my book that will always negate any amount of good things they may do afterwards. Risk your neck if you want, but you don't get forgiven for putting someone else's life on the line. Ever.

His legacy? His legacy is a message to kids about how to win, and it's the wrong message.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
by LKS1
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....

Everything changed as a result of Schumi, and he is still the GOAT IMO.

And I've rejoined this forum after leaving a long time ago (bored of Merc's success, which wasn't halted by the FIA, unlike during Schumi's time), so it is very different.
Is there any way to 'like' posts?

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:47 am
by Siao7
LKS1 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....

Everything changed as a result of Schumi, and he is still the GOAT IMO.

And I've rejoined this forum after leaving a long time ago (bored of Merc's success, which wasn't halted by the FIA, unlike during Schumi's time), so it is very different.
Is there any way to 'like' posts?
I want to 'like' yours if I can!!!

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:56 pm
by Fiki
LKS1 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....

Everything changed as a result of Schumi, and he is still the GOAT IMO.

And I've rejoined this forum after leaving a long time ago (bored of Merc's success, which wasn't halted by the FIA, unlike during Schumi's time), so it is very different.
Is there any way to 'like' posts?
How about this: :thumbup:

By the way, I don't think Schumi is anywhere near the greatest of all time, but it is good to see you again. Welcome back!

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:07 am
by LKS1
👍

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:10 am
by LKS1
But I'm now out of here again, as the setup of this forum is too dificult.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
by Siao7
LKS1 wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:10 am
But I'm now out of here again, as the setup of this forum is too dificult.
You need an adblocker possibly

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:01 am
by Jezza13
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
LKS1 wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:10 am
But I'm now out of here again, as the setup of this forum is too dificult.
You need an adblocker possibly
Adblockers definitely take away the pain, on a computer at least.

Wish the same could be said for a mobile phone. It's misery using this site on a mobile.

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:56 am
by Siao7
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
LKS1 wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:10 am
But I'm now out of here again, as the setup of this forum is too dificult.
You need an adblocker possibly
Adblockers definitely take away the pain, on a computer at least.

Wish the same could be said for a mobile phone. It's misery using this site on a mobile.
Luckily I don't miss the site so much to be compelled to check it from my phone at all hours! Only from the work laptop

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:50 pm
by Battle Far
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:01 am
Wish the same could be said for a mobile phone. It's misery using this site on a mobile.
I use Chrome on my Android phone, the user experience is no different from that of Chrome on a PC with a narrow window (say 600 pixels) excluding the keyboard.

Perfectly acceptable

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:59 pm
by Battle Far
LKS1 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....
Very strongly disagree, neither Jim Clark (2xWDC, 2x runner up), fastest of his generation) nor Jackie Stewart (3xWDC, 2x runner up) EVER drove at or through their rivals, they very thought would never cross their minds.

Both Senna & Schumacher, failed to see their fellow competitors as rivals, rather they saw them as targets!

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:58 am
by Siao7
Battle Far wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:59 pm
LKS1 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....
Very strongly disagree, neither Jim Clark (2xWDC, 2x runner up), fastest of his generation) nor Jackie Stewart (3xWDC, 2x runner up) EVER drove at or through their rivals, they very thought would never cross their minds.

Both Senna & Schumacher, failed to see their fellow competitors as rivals, rather they saw them as targets!
I hope you realise how exaggerated this last sentence is

Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:46 pm
by mds
myattitude wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:48 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
This is not quite logically correct. I'd suggest that the reason Schumacher never had a WDC as his teammate is because he was the one winning most of them. JV, Hill and Mika weren't going to join him at Ferrari but if he wasn't driving, Rubens would be a 2xWDC, possibly a 4x WDC if inheriting Schumacher's role. Schumacher beat that would be 2-4x WDC quite soundly. Interesting how reputations pan out, but that's for another thread.
I know I'm digging up an old post here, but Schumacher pretty much debuted alongside a 3-time WDC. Decidedly won the qualifying tally, finished ahead 2 out of the first 3 races, then had a technical issue in the fourth, and spun off in the wet in the fifth. As a rookie he held up fine against the WDC, although I will admit 5 races is not a lot of data.