Evaluating Schumi's legacy

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Retro-Virus
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:20 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:29 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:18 am
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:00 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:20 am


Senna pushed a team mate on the wall, crashed (the same driver) to secure a WDC and also slowed down in Monaco to defend his provisional pole. The same things that you list as negatives for Schumacher, Senna taught them a decade before Schumacher. But that didn't stop you having him at the top of your list. So I conclude that your post is biased as hell and I also should really stop commenting in Schumacher threads!
Why did they change the racing line after qualifying?
You got your story wrong. The pole was always on the same side for years (it is easy to see the starts of the races from '88, '89, etc. on youtube, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Gw7fc ... munication and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-sAOj ... yrtonSenna).

It's just that because Senna had made a mess from the pole the years before, he wanted it changed. The narrative that the FIA changed the pole side to mess with Senna is a false one.
I am hearing your version for the first time.

Then, why did Senna say that "you bust your balls to get pole' and then they do this.
To my understanding, Senna knew the pole position was on the dirty side. He had fudged up the last two starts from there, while Berger did ok in 1987. It was something reasonable if you think about it, you bust your balls to get pole and the pole is on the dirty side. It's similar to Bottas preferring to go P3 instead of P2 in Bahrain, as P3 would give him a better chance.

The problem is that Senna went to the track officials and asked for the pole to be changed. They seem to have agreed, but it's like asking the waiter to change the menu on the restaurant because it's not to your liking; it's not them who make these decisions. So Senna believed that he got the pole changed, when in reality nothing as such was formally agreed. He then made a fuss that Balestre overturned the decision, when Balestre only gave an order that the pole will not change on the 11th hour. Senna also had bad blood with Balestre from the year before and saw red afterwards. The rest is history
:thumbup:
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

It's also quite cool to read Toet's article about what was going on with the "driver aids" in 1994. He has some very nice articles, I'd urge you to give them a look. Effectively (to my understanding) they created the driver aid effect, but legally. As other teams too that year.

A.J.
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by A.J. »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:04 am
Anyway, I am not here to recycle anything. I don't think Senna and Schumacher are in the same level, just my opinion.

Regards,
RV
I agree with you here 100% - Schumacher is ahead for me. :nod:

Retro-Virus
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Any link?

I think it had to do with changing the braking towards the left pedal, right ? Anyway, it ended with him ramming into hill.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 am
Any link?

I think it had to do with changing the braking towards the left pedal, right ? Anyway, it ended with him ramming into hill.
No, not really. Braking with his left foot was another thing altogether when other drivers were still doing heel and toe.

The article was this:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rota ... llem-toet/

Retro-Virus
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Retro-Virus »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:06 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 am
Any link?

I think it had to do with changing the braking towards the left pedal, right ? Anyway, it ended with him ramming into hill.
No, not really. Braking with his left foot was another thing altogether when other drivers were still doing heel and toe.

The article was this:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rota ... llem-toet/
:thumbup:
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

myattitude
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by myattitude »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.

If you ask me, I would rate Senna as the greatest followed by Hamilton, then Clark. Just my 2C
This is not quite logically correct. I'd suggest that the reason Schumacher never had a WDC as his teammate is because he was the one winning most of them. JV, Hill and Mika weren't going to join him at Ferrari but if he wasn't driving, Rubens would be a 2xWDC, possibly a 4x WDC if inheriting Schumacher's role. Schumacher beat that would be 2-4x WDC quite soundly. Interesting how reputations pan out, but that's for another thread.

KingVoid
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by KingVoid »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.

Asphalt_World
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Asphalt_World »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.
Hamilton let him?
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

KingVoid wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.
The WDC that people refer to Hamilton beating in the same car is Alonso in his prime.

KingVoid
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by KingVoid »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 10:55 am
KingVoid wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 7:42 pm
Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:39 am
Schumacher is a good driver, but as many people have said, he's never had a WDC as his team mate, and after coming back from retirement, and once paired with Rosberg, he lost. He's also had a few dubious moments like parking his car, ramming into others, and so on.
Ironic that you mention Rosberg.

The only reason why Rosberg is a WDC is because Hamilton let him win a WDC in the same machinery (albeit with more misfortune, but that season was 21 races and there was enough time to rectify bad luck).

Maybe Schumi would be rated higher if he let Rubens win one title, that way he too could brag about how he "beat" a WDC in the same car.
Hamilton let him?
I mean, if it was not for crashing his car in Baku, his abysmal weekend in Singapore, or his numerous moonwalk starts, he could have certainly prevented it.

Hamilton did have bad luck that season, but 21 races is more than enough time to circumnavigate the points he lost due to misfortune.

This is why the whole argument about how “Hamilton beat 3 WDCs” is flawed. One of those became a WDC while in the same team as Hamilton. That should hurt his legacy, not help it.

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Andy_S
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Andy_S »

Schumacher had a win-no-matter-what attitude, and if that meant disregarding the rules then so be it and for that reason I don't care how talented he was, naughty children who won't play fair don't deserve toys.

And the same goes for at least two other world champions who have deliberately used the car as a weapon: In my book that will always negate any amount of good things they may do afterwards. Risk your neck if you want, but you don't get forgiven for putting someone else's life on the line. Ever.

His legacy? His legacy is a message to kids about how to win, and it's the wrong message.

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LKS1
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by LKS1 »

At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....

Everything changed as a result of Schumi, and he is still the GOAT IMO.

And I've rejoined this forum after leaving a long time ago (bored of Merc's success, which wasn't halted by the FIA, unlike during Schumi's time), so it is very different.
Is there any way to 'like' posts?

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

LKS1 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....

Everything changed as a result of Schumi, and he is still the GOAT IMO.

And I've rejoined this forum after leaving a long time ago (bored of Merc's success, which wasn't halted by the FIA, unlike during Schumi's time), so it is very different.
Is there any way to 'like' posts?
I want to 'like' yours if I can!!!

Fiki
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Fiki »

LKS1 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:19 am
At the end of the day, all (?) the great WDCs have had this same attitude. The FIA eventually tried to stop this after 1997, but this only taught future drivers to be less obvious in the future....

Everything changed as a result of Schumi, and he is still the GOAT IMO.

And I've rejoined this forum after leaving a long time ago (bored of Merc's success, which wasn't halted by the FIA, unlike during Schumi's time), so it is very different.
Is there any way to 'like' posts?
How about this: :thumbup:

By the way, I don't think Schumi is anywhere near the greatest of all time, but it is good to see you again. Welcome back!
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

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LKS1
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by LKS1 »

👍

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LKS1
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by LKS1 »

But I'm now out of here again, as the setup of this forum is too dificult.

Siao7
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Re: Evaluating Schumi's legacy

Post by Siao7 »

LKS1 wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:10 am
But I'm now out of here again, as the setup of this forum is too dificult.
You need an adblocker possibly

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