planetf1.com

Sooooo, do we have a winner yet?

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:28 pm

Sooooo, do we have a winner yet?

Not officially but we already get a whiner

Harpo wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:15 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:28 pm

Sooooo, do we have a winner yet?

Not officially but we already get a whiner

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:25 pm

Harpo wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:15 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:28 pm

Sooooo, do we have a winner yet?

Not officially but we already get a whiner

Looks like the blond beehive turned grey at the end of last week. Could it be the first step of a last minute effort to get rid of fake news ?

I have spent a number of years wondering if Trump should seek medical advice about his mental state, but since this election, I am more convinced than ever that he really really should.

If someone in normal life showed his level of delusion, they would probably be sectioned for their own safety.

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:39 pm

I have spent a number of years wondering if Trump should seek medical advice about his mental state, but since this election, I am more convinced than ever that he really really should.

If someone in normal life showed his level of delusion, they would probably be sectioned for their own safety.

He is a narcissistic pervert, but a good part of his all-out restlessness is thoughtful manipulation. What is really alarming is the number of blinded fanatics he raised. And the Republican Party that showed unreserved support is morally bankrupted, if you ask me.

Just saw an old guy with a "Keep America Great" red hat on the seafront in Brighton! Bless

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:58 am

Just saw an old guy with a "Keep America Great" red hat on the seafront in Brighton! Bless

Brighton seafront ? Did he succeed in escaping deflating Trumpland by swimming all along to Brexitoustan to seek asylum ?

Harpo wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:41 am

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:58 am

Just saw an old guy with a "Keep America Great" red hat on the seafront in Brighton! Bless

Brighton seafront ? Did he succeed in escaping deflating Trumpland by swimming all along to Brexitoustan to seek asylum ?

Not sure to be honest. But the fact that immediately afterwards I witnessed a cycle-rage incident can't be a coincidence. The orange man brings mayhem everywhere!!!

2 Republicans die and go to heaven.
They ask God if he'd answer one question.
"Of course," God says.
They ask how the Democrats rigged the election in 2020.
"It wasn't rigged," God replied.
Republicans look at one another and say, "This conspiracy goes higher than we thought!

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:22 am

2 Republicans die and go to heaven.
They ask God if he'd answer one question.
"Of course," God says.
They ask how the Democrats rigged the election in 2020.
"It wasn't rigged," God replied.
Republicans look at one another and say, "This conspiracy goes higher than we thought!

My god, what the hell is happening in America. When will Twitter ban Trump for creating this army of thugs?

Utterly disgraceful scenes. The legal challenges have been comically inept, and the allegations completely laughable. The consequences however are no laughing matter. A woman has apparently been shot and is in critical condition. Those Banana Republicans who have backed this brazen coup attempt should be exiled from politics.

Bit f**kin’ mental this.

I'm not usually a fan of the "where is all the tear gas?" line of argument when right wing protests appear to get an easier time of it than left wing from law enforcement. Mainly because protests are difficult to compare and without being there its difficult to say with certainty what caused things to get violent.

But are we seriously to believe that the possibility of this getting out of hand was not known to the security forces? Or that it wasn't possible to contain a protest in the capital despite having seen exactly that done only months ago when BLM protesters were being dispersed with rubber bullets and tear gas? Would they have stood a chance of getting into the chambers?

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:42 pm

I'm not usually a fan of the "where is all the tear gas?" line of argument when right wing protests appear to get an easier time of it than left wing from law enforcement. Mainly because protests are difficult to compare and without being there its difficult to say with certainty what caused things to get violent.

But are we seriously to believe that the possibility of this getting out of hand was not known to the security forces? Or that it wasn't possible to contain a protest in the capital despite having seen exactly that done only months ago when BLM protesters were being dispersed with rubber bullets and tear gas? Would they have stood a chance of getting into the chambers?

I basically came in here to say this. Unless I misheard or misunderstood, DC actually did request a National Guard presence ahead of time, but were refused*. That was the reason for the delayed response to what everyone knew was coming. Still, I was surprised by just how many people showed up. Two pipe bombs defused, many guns confiscated, Confederate flags and nooses prominently displayed, even a guy in a Camp Auschwitz hoodie. Clearly great supporters of democracy and even just basic decency...

*Googled after writing, quote from CNBC:

Trump had to be convinced to deploy the National Guard, a person familiar with the matter confirms to NBC News. Pence, who was moved to a secure location within the Capitol, was in contact with the Pentagon and “encouraged a much more rapid deployment,” the person added.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/06/pentago ... pitol.html

I've just been scanning the coverage from a wide variety of media outlets about what's happening in Washington &, in the wake of the civil unrest that's been occurring in the US over the past few months, i'm glad to report i've broadened my knowledge base when it come to the correct use of the English language.

I finally know what a riot is & what a terrorist does.

I read a tweet yesterday from Trump from back in July or so, where he was condemning anyone that would force their way into any public building; they'd be arrested, etc.

Now he has instigated this; I wonder if he will charge himself and his supporters with that

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:13 am

America has spent the last 75 years using the CIA to spread disinformation in third world countries to get the people to rise up and overthrow their leaders and install governments more ameniable to American interests.

Now that America is experiencing the same thing at the hands of Russia, the reaction is to go "NOT NICE!" like it is something new and unprecedented.

It is crazy to see it happening in the world's financially powerful nation, and the global ramifications are more significant than if it was happening in an African, Middle Eastern or Latin American country that most Westerners hadn't heard of before, and don't know how to pronounce, but this is ultimately no different, or no more significant at a human level to any of the countries that America has inflicted this on over the its tenure as a global super power.

The USA and UK in particular, but not exclusively, are experiencing the fallout of gatekeeping higher education from the lower income demographics of their society, and by excluding them from the political discussion by denying them a voice that speaks for them. They have allowed populist cheerleaders to sweep in and give them a voice, claiming to stand up for their needs. It doesn't matter that these people don't actually care for them, they can't see what benefits they were getting from the status quo, so from their perspective they have nothing to lose.

It is easy to label them as MAGA crazies, or Brexit loons, but that only strengthens their resolve. Trump's defeat, and the Democrats' control of the institutions of power is not the end of MAGA and Trump.

You're right, but my point of view (since I was a teenager, and it was a long time ago...) is that being a victim of the social inequity can explain but doesn't excuse becoming a stubborn moron. For tens of years it was mostly the source of political and social involvement, social bonds and even personal development. Not that simple-minded bastards didn't exist. They just were a lot fewer and harmless.
I won't start a lecture about the reasons and ways of this evolution, but during the last 50 years, all this was slowly dismantled, and people thrown back to their individual destiny. And class war replaced by war of the poor against the poor, led by populists belonging to the establishment, to the extra benefit of the ones who already benefited. What's happening now, because of the ever growing rifts of the society (and not only in the USA...), is, though being unaware of it (and certainly being "against" it), the return to the class war of people who were fed with 30 years (at least) of populist simplistic propaganda. Cooked with all the fascist ingredients, rather than the philantropic ones. It doesn't bode well for the future.

Harpo wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:13 am

America has spent the last 75 years using the CIA to spread disinformation in third world countries to get the people to rise up and overthrow their leaders and install governments more ameniable to American interests.

Now that America is experiencing the same thing at the hands of Russia, the reaction is to go "NOT NICE!" like it is something new and unprecedented.

It is crazy to see it happening in the world's financially powerful nation, and the global ramifications are more significant than if it was happening in an African, Middle Eastern or Latin American country that most Westerners hadn't heard of before, and don't know how to pronounce, but this is ultimately no different, or no more significant at a human level to any of the countries that America has inflicted this on over the its tenure as a global super power.

The USA and UK in particular, but not exclusively, are experiencing the fallout of gatekeeping higher education from the lower income demographics of their society, and by excluding them from the political discussion by denying them a voice that speaks for them. They have allowed populist cheerleaders to sweep in and give them a voice, claiming to stand up for their needs. It doesn't matter that these people don't actually care for them, they can't see what benefits they were getting from the status quo, so from their perspective they have nothing to lose.

It is easy to label them as MAGA crazies, or Brexit loons, but that only strengthens their resolve. Trump's defeat, and the Democrats' control of the institutions of power is not the end of MAGA and Trump.

You're right, but my point of view (since I was a teenager, and it was a long time ago...) is that being a victim of the social inequity can explain but doesn't excuse becoming a stubborn moron. For tens of years it was mostly the source of political and social involvement, social bonds and even personal development. Not that simple-minded bastards didn't exist. They just were a lot fewer and harmless.
I won't start a lecture about the reasons and ways of this evolution, but during the last 50 years, all this was slowly dismantled, and people thrown back to their individual destiny. And class war replaced by war of the poor against the poor, led by populists belonging to the establishment, to the extra benefit of the ones who already benefited. What's happening now, because of the ever growing rifts of the society (and not only in the USA...), is, though being unaware of it (and certainly being "against" it), the return to the class war of people who were fed with 30 years (at least) of populist simplistic propaganda. Cooked with all the fascist ingredients, rather than the philantropic ones. It doesn't bode well for the future.

To be clear, this is not a defence of those people, but rather than explanation of why such a situation arises. If you allow people to become disenfranchised the consequence of that is what we are seeing now.

The reason that education is so important is being seen most notably in the West's response to the COVID19 pandemic. If people are not given an adequate education, the result is a sizeable number of people who will reject anything educated people say, especially when it negatively impacts them.

Just because it is not right to listen to populist mouth pieces telling people what they want to hear, rather than the reality, doesn't mean we can ignore the consequences when people do. As the saying goes, just think how stupid the average person is, and then remember than 50% of people are stupider than they are. If you give people an excuse to absorb disinformation and neither the tools or the motivation to challenge it then you have to live with the results that that breeds.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:03 am

Harpo wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:13 am

America has spent the last 75 years using the CIA to spread disinformation in third world countries to get the people to rise up and overthrow their leaders and install governments more ameniable to American interests.

Now that America is experiencing the same thing at the hands of Russia, the reaction is to go "NOT NICE!" like it is something new and unprecedented.

It is crazy to see it happening in the world's financially powerful nation, and the global ramifications are more significant than if it was happening in an African, Middle Eastern or Latin American country that most Westerners hadn't heard of before, and don't know how to pronounce, but this is ultimately no different, or no more significant at a human level to any of the countries that America has inflicted this on over the its tenure as a global super power.

The USA and UK in particular, but not exclusively, are experiencing the fallout of gatekeeping higher education from the lower income demographics of their society, and by excluding them from the political discussion by denying them a voice that speaks for them. They have allowed populist cheerleaders to sweep in and give them a voice, claiming to stand up for their needs. It doesn't matter that these people don't actually care for them, they can't see what benefits they were getting from the status quo, so from their perspective they have nothing to lose.

It is easy to label them as MAGA crazies, or Brexit loons, but that only strengthens their resolve. Trump's defeat, and the Democrats' control of the institutions of power is not the end of MAGA and Trump.

You're right, but my point of view (since I was a teenager, and it was a long time ago...) is that being a victim of the social inequity can explain but doesn't excuse becoming a stubborn moron. For tens of years it was mostly the source of political and social involvement, social bonds and even personal development. Not that simple-minded bastards didn't exist. They just were a lot fewer and harmless.
I won't start a lecture about the reasons and ways of this evolution, but during the last 50 years, all this was slowly dismantled, and people thrown back to their individual destiny. And class war replaced by war of the poor against the poor, led by populists belonging to the establishment, to the extra benefit of the ones who already benefited. What's happening now, because of the ever growing rifts of the society (and not only in the USA...), is, though being unaware of it (and certainly being "against" it), the return to the class war of people who were fed with 30 years (at least) of populist simplistic propaganda. Cooked with all the fascist ingredients, rather than the philantropic ones. It doesn't bode well for the future.

To be clear, this is not a defence of those people, but rather than explanation of why such a situation arises. If you allow people to become disenfranchised the consequence of that is what we are seeing now.

The reason that education is so important is being seen most notably in the West's response to the COVID19 pandemic. If people are not given an adequate education, the result is a sizeable number of people who will reject anything educated people say, especially when it negatively impacts them.

Just because it is not right to listen to populist mouth pieces telling people what they want to hear, rather than the reality, doesn't mean we can ignore the consequences when people do. As the saying goes, just think how stupid the average person is, and then remember than 50% of people are stupider than they are. If you give people an excuse to absorb disinformation and neither the tools or the motivation to challenge it then you have to live with the results that that breeds.

That's what I understood. And I agree. My point was that social and political involvement "of yesterday" provided (made up for...) education, intellectual and social tools to people who couldn't get it elsewhere. You could (and still should) be a radical opponent to this society and again not look at the world as coloured in black and white only. This was dismantled, and we're paying the price.

I think as a generation we’ve been a little spoiled with life, to the point that many people now simply cannot handle losing or even being disagreed with. It doesn’t matter whether they’re conservative or liberal, the level of thinking is still the same. After Brexit and the last UK general election there were people saying things like, "I’m disgusted to be British," now the MAGA brigade have gone one step further and refused to accept the election result completely.

Trump is simply an avatar for this increasingly prevalent and dangerous kind of thinking. Putin must be sat in the Kremlin p*ssing his pants watching this. What could be a better advert for ‘the perils of democracy and weak leadership’. Every despot dictator in the world will be showing this footage and reminding their citizens how fortunate they are to have the ‘stability’ of their regime.

Scarcely believable scenes, but sadly it feels like the culmination of an problem that has been slowly escalating for the past decade: the increased polarisation of political opposites, erosion of constructive debate, the loss of trust in mainstream media and the refusal to accept the outcome of democratic votes. The reasons are complex and we all have our own opinions of how we got here, but this does feel like something of a watershed moment in our society, a moment where these escalating issues suddenly boiled over and became glaringly evident in a rather ugly manner. I don't know where things go from here, but I can't see things getting any better as, although it's the conservative side who finally have pushed things over the edge I rather think both sides of the political spectrum are as bad as each other in this.

This is not unique to America either, I had forgotten about a similar event happened in Germany barely six months ago, albeit unsuccessfully:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53964147

It's interesting, and encouraging IMO, to see high ranking Republican figures making some pretty damning statements against Trump in the wake of this.

Even as much as congressmen calling for his cabinet to declare him unfit, invoke the 25th amendment, and remove him from office. I dont see that happening personally but I would be very surprised if he wasnt impeached for a second time.

And, unlike with the first impeachment, I would say theres a non-zero chance he may actually be removed. The GOP are in a tricky spot from a political strategy point of view here. Either condemn Trump and risk losing his base or appease him, ride it out for 14 days (hoping he doesnt do more damage e.g. by issuing a blanket pardon to the 'protesters') and risk losing the moderates, who are rightly appalled at what they saw yesterday.

I do sympathise a little with the protestors yesterday, and those who are generally against a Democratic party in what may be a term in which the party controls both the Senate and Congress. Looking at the outside in, I see America as the land of the free - where people are permitted to live their lives freely in accordance with the constitution. With the Democrats in power, it can be argued by Republicans that we are straying further away from the original framework outlined for America. Gun control, larger government presence, and of course the forceful measures required to suppress the Covid-19 pandemic are some of the key points Republicans will be calling out as severely against the constitution. It's no wonder Trump has managed to brainwash so many of this idea of the radical left taking over people's lives. Martin Luther King of course said a riot is the language of the unheard, and does not stem from thin air. We must understand that, while a small amount of extremist people protested yesterday, it represents a portion of the American population that voted for Trump. Ultimately, I hope the Republican party is not replaced by a Trump wannabe, and that their voters will be educated of the reasoning behind some measures (such as mask-wearing for Covid-19), and that a more civil discussion on economic and politicial freedom is had.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 pm

I do sympathise a little with the protestors yesterday, and those who are generally against a Democratic party in what may be a term in which the party controls both the Senate and Congress. Looking at the outside in, I see America as the land of the free - where people are permitted to live their lives freely in accordance with the constitution. With the Democrats in power, it can be argued by Republicans that we are straying further away from the original framework outlined for America. Gun control, larger government presence, and of course the forceful measures required to suppress the Covid-19 pandemic are some of the key points Republicans will be calling out as severely against the constitution. It's no wonder Trump has managed to brainwash so many of this idea of the radical left taking over people's lives. Martin Luther King of course said a riot is the language of the unheard, and does not stem from thin air. We must understand that, while a small amount of extremist people protested yesterday, it represents a portion of the American population that voted for Trump. Ultimately, I hope the Republican party is not replaced by a Trump wannabe, and that their voters will be educated of the reasoning behind some measures (such as mask-wearing for Covid-19), and that a more civil discussion on economic and politicial freedom is had.

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.

Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:40 pm

It's interesting, and encouraging IMO, to see high ranking Republican figures making some pretty damning statements against Trump in the wake of this.

Even as much as congressmen calling for his cabinet to declare him unfit, invoke the 25th amendment, and remove him from office. I dont see that happening personally but I would be very surprised if he wasnt impeached for a second time.

And, unlike with the first impeachment, I would say theres a non-zero chance he may actually be removed. The GOP are in a tricky spot from a political strategy point of view here. Either condemn Trump and risk losing his base or appease him, ride it out for 14 days (hoping he doesnt do more damage e.g. by issuing a blanket pardon to the 'protesters') and risk losing the moderates, who are rightly appalled at what they saw yesterday.

The absolutely catastrophic thing for the Republican party is that even in the immediate aftermath of the Presidential election, they looked in very good shape really. Yes Trump had lost, but they had flipped multiple house seats and looked in prime position to regain the house in 2022, and they looked extremely likely to win one or both Georgia senate runoffs to retain control there. They also had attracted a remarkable number of ethnic minority voters.

That has now turned to dust. Trump's lunacy has further ignited and secured his base, but the GOP are now going to be absolute poison to moderates and the suburban women who had already turned away from the party. A month ago, Ted Cruz crawling further and further up Trump's backside looked a cynical but shrewd political move. Now it looks like he's the rat that swam towards the sinking ship.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:07 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 pm

I do sympathise a little with the protestors yesterday, and those who are generally against a Democratic party in what may be a term in which the party controls both the Senate and Congress. Looking at the outside in, I see America as the land of the free - where people are permitted to live their lives freely in accordance with the constitution. With the Democrats in power, it can be argued by Republicans that we are straying further away from the original framework outlined for America. Gun control, larger government presence, and of course the forceful measures required to suppress the Covid-19 pandemic are some of the key points Republicans will be calling out as severely against the constitution. It's no wonder Trump has managed to brainwash so many of this idea of the radical left taking over people's lives. Martin Luther King of course said a riot is the language of the unheard, and does not stem from thin air. We must understand that, while a small amount of extremist people protested yesterday, it represents a portion of the American population that voted for Trump. Ultimately, I hope the Republican party is not replaced by a Trump wannabe, and that their voters will be educated of the reasoning behind some measures (such as mask-wearing for Covid-19), and that a more civil discussion on economic and politicial freedom is had.

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:07 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 pm

I do sympathise a little with the protestors yesterday, and those who are generally against a Democratic party in what may be a term in which the party controls both the Senate and Congress. Looking at the outside in, I see America as the land of the free - where people are permitted to live their lives freely in accordance with the constitution. With the Democrats in power, it can be argued by Republicans that we are straying further away from the original framework outlined for America. Gun control, larger government presence, and of course the forceful measures required to suppress the Covid-19 pandemic are some of the key points Republicans will be calling out as severely against the constitution. It's no wonder Trump has managed to brainwash so many of this idea of the radical left taking over people's lives. Martin Luther King of course said a riot is the language of the unheard, and does not stem from thin air. We must understand that, while a small amount of extremist people protested yesterday, it represents a portion of the American population that voted for Trump. Ultimately, I hope the Republican party is not replaced by a Trump wannabe, and that their voters will be educated of the reasoning behind some measures (such as mask-wearing for Covid-19), and that a more civil discussion on economic and politicial freedom is had.

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.

Democrats never stormed the capitol. There were investigations into Trump's 2016 victory, but largely conducted through official channels. We never had Obama or Clinton phoning up state governors to overturn what the people voted for. Yes there were those who cynically acted against Trump, but false equivilence is at play here.

The comparisons to BLM are interesting to say the least. If an identical amount of BLM rioters had stormed that building, how many do you think would have been shot? Far more, I guarantee you. They certainly wouldn't have had some police officers giving them directions to certain offices.

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:07 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 pm

I do sympathise a little with the protestors yesterday, and those who are generally against a Democratic party in what may be a term in which the party controls both the Senate and Congress. Looking at the outside in, I see America as the land of the free - where people are permitted to live their lives freely in accordance with the constitution. With the Democrats in power, it can be argued by Republicans that we are straying further away from the original framework outlined for America. Gun control, larger government presence, and of course the forceful measures required to suppress the Covid-19 pandemic are some of the key points Republicans will be calling out as severely against the constitution. It's no wonder Trump has managed to brainwash so many of this idea of the radical left taking over people's lives. Martin Luther King of course said a riot is the language of the unheard, and does not stem from thin air. We must understand that, while a small amount of extremist people protested yesterday, it represents a portion of the American population that voted for Trump. Ultimately, I hope the Republican party is not replaced by a Trump wannabe, and that their voters will be educated of the reasoning behind some measures (such as mask-wearing for Covid-19), and that a more civil discussion on economic and politicial freedom is had.

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.

You can nut pick all you want, but Clinton conceded immediately and the Obama administration immediately began transition with the Trump administration.

Biden's inauguration is less than 2 weeks away, and Trump has still not unambiguously conceded.

It’s the oppositions job to try and undermine the government, to a certain extent and if they have reason to believe he was involved in illegal activities, to pursue them to the furthest end they can. I don’t see the democrats as having done anything especially partisan, given the situation they’ve been faced with.

Nobody can ‘guarantee’ there would have been far more BLM protestors shot if they had stormed the Capitol. Trump may well have ordered more troops to guard the building, as he did in the past but there is a difference between that and the soldiers simply being trigger happy. There have been many BLM protests in the last year, some of them violent and destructive and whilst there have been shootings (both by the Police and rioters) there was nothing resembling a ‘Bloody Sunday’ event where armed soldiers were gunning down civilians.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:15 am

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:07 pm

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.

You can nut pick all you want, but Clinton conceded immediately and the Obama administration immediately began transition with the Trump administration.

Biden's inauguration is less than 2 weeks away, and Trump has still not unambiguously conceded.

I agree ATH but don't misconstrue my criticism of the left's behavior over the past 4 yrs as support for the right or their actions at the Capitol. That's certainly not the case. I pretty much agree with the views most people have expressed regarding what happened there but when I read/ see how this is all being portrayed in the media in light of the fiasco caused by the Democrat's over the past 4 yrs, I just can't help but wonder at the blatant hypocrisy being dished out by them & the media.

As for Trump, I think we all had an uneasy feeling that things could go pear shaped if the election was close. While I do support some of his policies & I think he did do some good things, to me he comes across as an immature sociopath who has no idea of how to lose gracefully & would gladly site back & watch the world burn rather than admit defeat.

BMWSauber84 wrote: Democrats never stormed the capitol.

Again don't view my criticism of of the left as support for what happened in the Capitol. I don't support or condone what happened there.

BMWSauber84 wrote: There were investigations into Trump's 2016 victory, but largely conducted through official channels.

They were conducted through official channels, as were others, but they were based on highly dubious, some could say fabricated, weak or hearsay evidence. The Steele Dossier, the Ukrainian phone call, the testimony of Christine Blasey Ford are a few examples.

BMWSauber84 wrote: The comparisons to BLM are interesting to say the least. If an identical amount of BLM rioters had stormed that building, how many do you think would have been shot? Far more, I guarantee you. They certainly wouldn't have had some police officers giving them directions to certain offices.

You don't know that.

Trump is certainly a sociopath, like all wannabe fascist dictators are (and a good share of narcissistic democratic "leaders"), but like I wrote upper in this thread, a huge mistake that a lot of his denigrators do is thinking that he spent 4 years pouring fuel in the flammes he had lighted just because of his mental state. No, it was deliberate.
That most of the Republican Party felt the need to support him wholeheartedly till he went frankly overboard last wednesday is an utter disgrace. What happened wednesday shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, considering his 4 years of deeds, speeches and compulsive tweeting, going on overdrive since the november election. And the ones resigning from his office just now are solid hypocrites.

[quote="Jezza13 " post_id=835566 time=1610103497 user_id=15002]
[quote="Alienturnedhuman " post_id=835563 time=1610097329 user_id=2135]
[quote="Jezza13 " post_id=835558 time=1610069310 user_id=15002]
[quote="Banana Man " post_id=835556 time=1610053639 user_id=14845]

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.
[/quote]

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.
[/quote]
[color=#000057]You can nut pick all you want, but Clinton conceded immediately and the Obama administration immediately began transition with the Trump administration.

Biden's inauguration is less than 2 weeks away, and Trump has still not unambiguously conceded.[/color]
[/quote]

I agree ATH but don't misconstrue my criticism of the left's behavior over the past 4 yrs as support for the right or their actions at the Capitol. That's certainly not the case. I pretty much agree with the views most people have expressed regarding what happened there but when I read/ see how this is all being portrayed in the media in light of the fiasco caused by the Democrat's over the past 4 yrs, I just can't help but wonder at the blatant hypocrisy being dished out by them & the media.

As for Trump, I think we all had an uneasy feeling that things could go pear shaped if the election was close. While I do support some of his policies & I think he did do some good things, to me he comes across as an immature sociopath who has no idea of how to lose gracefully & would gladly site back & watch the world burn rather than admit defeat.

[quote="BMWSauber84"]
Democrats never stormed the capitol.[/quote]
Again don't view my criticism of of the left as support for what happened in the Capitol. I don't support or condone what happened there.
[quote="BMWSauber84"]
There were investigations into Trump's 2016 victory, but largely conducted through official channels.[/quote]
They were conducted through official channels, as were others, but they were based on highly dubious, some could say fabricated, weak or hearsay evidence. The Steele Dossier, the Ukrainian phone call, the testimony of Christine Blasey Ford are a few examples.
[quote="BMWSauber84"]
The comparisons to BLM are interesting to say the least. If an identical amount of BLM rioters had stormed that building, how many do you think would have been shot? Far more, I guarantee you. They certainly wouldn't have had some police officers giving them directions to certain offices.[/quote]
You don't know that.
[/quote]

Even taking away what happened at the capitol, there is absolutely no comparison. Trump pressured the Georgia secretary of state to "find him" 11,000+ votes. He tried to force the Vice President to throw out the Electoral college votes despite not having the constitutional power to do so. He has filed frivolous lawsuits and had associates file frivolous lawsuits up and down the country that were tossed out sometimes by judged he appointed. He suggested the Supreme Court weren't "brave" enough to hear his case when they in fact chucked it out because it was nonsense.

Donald Trump has been crying wolf about election fraud since he lost the Iowa caucus to Ted Cruz in the primaries for the 2016 election. He was claiming that the 2016 Presidential election was going to be rigged back when it looked like he would lose it. This behaviour is nothing new or surprising. I get the Democrat comparisons and the comparisons to UK remain voters, but none of it is anything like what we have seen from Trump and his sycophants.

I would suggest that the police wouldn't have been taking selfies and giving directions if this had been a BLM riot.

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:37 pm

Even taking away what happened at the capitol, there is absolutely no comparison. Trump pressured the Georgia secretary of state to "find him" 11,000+ votes. He tried to force the Vice President to throw out the Electoral college votes despite not having the constitutional power to do so. He has filed frivolous lawsuits and had associates file frivolous lawsuits up and down the country that were tossed out sometimes by judged he appointed. He suggested the Supreme Court weren't "brave" enough to hear his case when they in fact chucked it out because it was nonsense.

Donald Trump has been crying wolf about election fraud since he lost the Iowa caucus to Ted Cruz in the primaries for the 2016 election. He was claiming that the 2016 Presidential election was going to be rigged back when it looked like he would lose it. This behaviour is nothing new or surprising. I get the Democrat comparisons and the comparisons to UK remain voters, but none of it is anything like what we have seen from Trump and his sycophants.

I would suggest that the police wouldn't have been taking selfies and giving directions if this had been a BLM riot.

Your last sentence is a non-sequitur. Everything you say about Trump in the first two paragraphs is correct and the US will be well rid of him come January 20th. However, none of that has a baring on the behaviors of police and soldiers who are following orders outside the building. They will all have been trained in how to deal with certain situations but you have no cause to believe they are politically aligned to Trump.

Whilst instances of Police brutality and racism no doubt exists, I can't see any evidence to suggest a mass shooting would have occurred had BLM tried to storm the capital. If anything there would have been a much higher police presence, which would have prevented the ingress into the building which ultimately lead to the shootings.

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:37 pm

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:15 am

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:07 pm

I don't. They lost a free and fair election (despite what Donny may think) and now they have to put up with it. That's democracy. You don't always get your way but it keeps a heck of a lot of lunatics from assuming absolute power.

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.

You can nut pick all you want, but Clinton conceded immediately and the Obama administration immediately began transition with the Trump administration.

Biden's inauguration is less than 2 weeks away, and Trump has still not unambiguously conceded.

I agree ATH but don't misconstrue my criticism of the left's behavior over the past 4 yrs as support for the right or their actions at the Capitol. That's certainly not the case. I pretty much agree with the views most people have expressed regarding what happened there but when I read/ see how this is all being portrayed in the media in light of the fiasco caused by the Democrat's over the past 4 yrs, I just can't help but wonder at the blatant hypocrisy being dished out by them & the media.

As for Trump, I think we all had an uneasy feeling that things could go pear shaped if the election was close. While I do support some of his policies & I think he did do some good things, to me he comes across as an immature sociopath who has no idea of how to lose gracefully & would gladly site back & watch the world burn rather than admit defeat.

BMWSauber84 wrote: Democrats never stormed the capitol.

Again don't view my criticism of of the left as support for what happened in the Capitol. I don't support or condone what happened there.

BMWSauber84 wrote: There were investigations into Trump's 2016 victory, but largely conducted through official channels.

They were conducted through official channels, as were others, but they were based on highly dubious, some could say fabricated, weak or hearsay evidence. The Steele Dossier, the Ukrainian phone call, the testimony of Christine Blasey Ford are a few examples.

BMWSauber84 wrote: The comparisons to BLM are interesting to say the least. If an identical amount of BLM rioters had stormed that building, how many do you think would have been shot? Far more, I guarantee you. They certainly wouldn't have had some police officers giving them directions to certain offices.

You don't know that.

Even taking away what happened at the capitol, there is absolutely no comparison. Trump pressured the Georgia secretary of state to "find him" 11,000+ votes. He tried to force the Vice President to throw out the Electoral college votes despite not having the constitutional power to do so. He has filed frivolous lawsuits and had associates file frivolous lawsuits up and down the country that were tossed out sometimes by judged he appointed. He suggested the Supreme Court weren't "brave" enough to hear his case when they in fact chucked it out because it was nonsense.

Donald Trump has been crying wolf about election fraud since he lost the Iowa caucus to Ted Cruz in the primaries for the 2016 election. He was claiming that the 2016 Presidential election was going to be rigged back when it looked like he would lose it. This behaviour is nothing new or surprising. I get the Democrat comparisons and the comparisons to UK remain voters, but none of it is anything like what we have seen from Trump and his sycophants.

I would suggest that the police wouldn't have been taking selfies and giving directions if this had been a BLM riot.

Again I have very little issue with what you've said here BMW. The 11,000 vote comment? Well, I've heard plenty of politicians say "We need to find such & such amount of votes" during an election so I don't really have an issue with that, but with pretty much everything else, it appears to me the actions of president unwilling to accept the will of the people.

My issue is with those who Democrat's, their supporters & the media who, after refusing to accept the legitimacy of Trumps administration publicly almost every day for the past 4 yrs, are now demanding supporters on the right to shut up & accept the results of this election. I also have issues with the media who did nothing but willfully feed the flames of division over the past 4 yrs through their highly partisan & antagonistic coverage of Trumps administration.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:18 am

It’s the oppositions job to try and undermine the government, to a certain extent and if they have reason to believe he was involved in illegal activities, to pursue them to the furthest end they can.

Probably a little pedantic here but i'm not sure it's an oppositions job to undermine a government.

They should definitely be charged with holding a government to account & offering an alternative, but to undermine it? Though it could be argued I suppose that to undermine the government is exactly what the Democrat's & media did.

Then again the same could be said of Trump himself through his ridiculous tweets & arrogant, combative & downright weird persona.

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:55 pm

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:37 pm

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:15 am

Jezza13 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am

Hold on.

Didn't we just go through 4 yrs of the Democrat's, their backers & supporters, all propped up by a hyper partisan mass & social media, constantly, day in day out, doing everything they could to undermine the validity of a government who also won a free & fair election?

Ukraine Gate ? Russia Gate & the fraudulent Steele Dossier ? The spying on the Trump campaign by the Obama Administration? The continual demands for Trump to release more & more of his tax information? The way Brett Kavanagh was treated during his confirmation hearing ? The impeachment itself ? Nancy Pelosi stating during an interview "We've been trying to impeach him for 2 1/2 yrs" after they finally managed to get around to it? Maxine Walters, who publicly cried for Democratic supporters to harass Republican's where ever & when ever they get the chance which led to party members being verbally assaulted while out with their families ?

The Democrat's & their supporters spent 4 solid years challenging the validity of Trumps election & presidency.

Then we have the mass & social media fueling the flames of conflict through openly bias commentary on both sides, but particularly in support of the Democrat's. One only has to compare the differences in the terminology the media used during the BLM "protests" & the Washington D.C "riots".

What happened in Washington was horrible but, after the last 4 years, I don't think the Democrat's & their supporters should be taking a "Holier than thou" approach to the way this has played out.

You can nut pick all you want, but Clinton conceded immediately and the Obama administration immediately began transition with the Trump administration.

Biden's inauguration is less than 2 weeks away, and Trump has still not unambiguously conceded.

I agree ATH but don't misconstrue my criticism of the left's behavior over the past 4 yrs as support for the right or their actions at the Capitol. That's certainly not the case. I pretty much agree with the views most people have expressed regarding what happened there but when I read/ see how this is all being portrayed in the media in light of the fiasco caused by the Democrat's over the past 4 yrs, I just can't help but wonder at the blatant hypocrisy being dished out by them & the media.

As for Trump, I think we all had an uneasy feeling that things could go pear shaped if the election was close. While I do support some of his policies & I think he did do some good things, to me he comes across as an immature sociopath who has no idea of how to lose gracefully & would gladly site back & watch the world burn rather than admit defeat.

BMWSauber84 wrote: Democrats never stormed the capitol.

Again don't view my criticism of of the left as support for what happened in the Capitol. I don't support or condone what happened there.

BMWSauber84 wrote: There were investigations into Trump's 2016 victory, but largely conducted through official channels.

They were conducted through official channels, as were others, but they were based on highly dubious, some could say fabricated, weak or hearsay evidence. The Steele Dossier, the Ukrainian phone call, the testimony of Christine Blasey Ford are a few examples.

BMWSauber84 wrote: The comparisons to BLM are interesting to say the least. If an identical amount of BLM rioters had stormed that building, how many do you think would have been shot? Far more, I guarantee you. They certainly wouldn't have had some police officers giving them directions to certain offices.

You don't know that.

Even taking away what happened at the capitol, there is absolutely no comparison. Trump pressured the Georgia secretary of state to "find him" 11,000+ votes. He tried to force the Vice President to throw out the Electoral college votes despite not having the constitutional power to do so. He has filed frivolous lawsuits and had associates file frivolous lawsuits up and down the country that were tossed out sometimes by judged he appointed. He suggested the Supreme Court weren't "brave" enough to hear his case when they in fact chucked it out because it was nonsense.

Donald Trump has been crying wolf about election fraud since he lost the Iowa caucus to Ted Cruz in the primaries for the 2016 election. He was claiming that the 2016 Presidential election was going to be rigged back when it looked like he would lose it. This behaviour is nothing new or surprising. I get the Democrat comparisons and the comparisons to UK remain voters, but none of it is anything like what we have seen from Trump and his sycophants.

I would suggest that the police wouldn't have been taking selfies and giving directions if this had been a BLM riot.

Again I have very little issue with what you've said here BMW. The 11,000 vote comment? Well, I've heard plenty of politicians say "We need to find such & such amount of votes" during an election so I don't really have an issue with that, but with pretty much everything else, it appears to me the actions of president unwilling to accept the will of the people.

My issue is with those who Democrat's, their supporters & the media who, after refusing to accept the legitimacy of Trumps administration publicly almost every day for the past 4 yrs, are now demanding supporters on the right to shut up & accept the results of this election. I also have issues with the media who did nothing but willfully feed the flames of division over the past 4 yrs through their highly partisan & antagonistic coverage of Trumps administration.

Hmmm. Have you ever heard a politician in a functioning Democracy ask the Secretary of a State to find that number of votes for him? I'd suggest that's a far bigger deal than you are making it out to be. I would also suggest that we didn't see 130+ Democrats in Congress object to the ratification of Trump's Electoral votes in 2016.

Yes the mainstream media in the US tends to have a liberal bias. Partisan news channels are nothing new in the country though, and you'll find Fox News still giving plenty of air time to cranks and loonies who think the election was stolen.