F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

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Schumacher forever#1
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote: It wasn't 4 white officers that held down George Floyd, apparently they were white, black, hispanic and asian, obviously the white officer was the chief instigator, Floyd's breathing was also impaired by the officer leaning on his back, but again loose reporting to give a different overview and I have to wonder why?
If you're going to make outrageous statements like this at least do some research first. A quick google search will show you that two of the officers are clearly caucasion, one seems to have relations tied to south-east Asia, and the other I cannot identify (but clearly not black). I'll remind you this is a Black Lives Matter protest, not a Hispanic or Asian Lives Matter protest.

It was three non-black officers that held them down, with one officer standing there clearly not caring for the fact that George Floyd had lost consciousness.

This is clearly a systemic issue, reinforced by the fact that all 57 Buffalo officers resigned from their duties in support of the officer who pushed a 75 year old man and left him in critical condition.

I would refrain from commenting further on this issue if I were you, before you accidentally say something offensive.
So you will concede that only 2 of the officers were white whilst on C4 news yesterday they ran with the story that all the officers were white, when I see inaccurate reporting then I see a narrative.

I saw an interview with black footballer Raheem Sterling who complained that only a third of professional footballers in the country are black, in England 3% of the population is black whilst 87% are white, look at the ridiculous contradiction that's more like racism against white people yet they ran with the story obviously thinking that people are stupid and would just lap it up as they look in every knuck and cranny for racism.
I literally know nothing about C4 so I can't comment on this, nor do I generally get news from news channels. I still don't know what you're inferring with the fact that all four officers weren't caucasian. Racism doesn't stop at white people, it can be instigated by any person of colour. It is just disproportionally aimed at African American people, to an excessive and fatal level.

I find it needless to cherry pick Sterling's comments on why 'only' a third of footballers are black, obviously he himself doesn't understand the demographics, and news channels will generally sensationalise what influential people will say. It raises another issue, which I would be on your side with - oftentimes certain sectors will promote diversity to an unhealthy amount so much so that a minority population in a field will be given more job opportunities than a typical person applying for that same field.
Pokerman hasn't cherry picked Sterling's comments because that is not what Sterling has said. He has either deliberately misquoted him and turned what he did say from being a valid criticism to a piece of fiction or he has just parroted a populist right wing opinion piece, like the ones in the 'sources' he provided.

Sterling said that given that one third of footballers in the league are black, the fact that they are barely represented further up the chain of command shows there is still a strong bias against them. Managers are former players and if there wasn't bias you would expect to see the proportion mirrored higher up. It is a valid criticism.
Thanks for the clarity, I probably shouldn't have assumed what Sterling had said. I did actually hear Ruud Gullet talking about this very issue on SkySportsNews today, which as you say is a valid criticism.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Blake »

ShaneM wrote:This is now 90% politics and 10% race (if even that), when you start executing African Amercian police officers that served the community for over 40 years (just one of many African American Law Enforcement Officers that have been executed), or spray painting F Israel on the side of a Synagoge before setting it on fire or saying you are going to burn the diamond disctrict in NYC (mostly Jewish owned), or stabbing a NYPD officer (which is a Minority majority orginazation, and has been for quite a while) while saying Islmaic terorist slogans, or beat the hell out of member of the LGBT community while saying homophobic slurs, or attacking a Childrens hospital, or preventing Fire Department from getting to a house on fire with the family still in it, or chanting eat the rich, or F capitalism while on your IPhone (and I could go on and on about this kind of stuff) it is no longer about race. And everyone from the Police to Trump immediately condemned George Floyd's murder and said they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This is about violently overthrowing the US government (and all other Free Western Societies) and installing a Socialist/ Communist system, make no mistake this is a communist revolution.

If we want to have a serious discussion on Race let's have one, why are all the worst cities in the country for crime, poverty, drugs, and schools all completely owned and run by the Democratic Party, and have been for 50-100 years. Why have we financially incentivised the dictruction of the African American Family by paying them to have children outside of wedlock, guarunteing the child will not have a Father (DNC again). Why are the School boards preventing families from deciding for themselves what schools there children may attend. Why do we endlessly tell them that Government can solve all there problems, but never do. Why is it that inner city African Americans (unless you have one in million athletic skills) can only look to crime to get there slice of the American Dream. Why have we aborted millions of African American babies via abortion, and allowed companies like Planned Parenthood to then chop up the babies parts and sell them for profit (that news just came out in recently and was completely buried by the news). All of these problems are all created and perpetuated by the DNC, but the inner city African Americans will still blindly vote for DNC politicians 99% of the time, WHY?
I was going to ignore this and hope you would just go away, but after reading it again, I couldn't let you get away with such asinine comments, shane. You have unfairly turned many things into an anti-Democrat issue and I, for one, feel it is YOU and others like you, who are playing politics. The bullsh!t claim that this is "violently overthrowing the US government" and "installing a Communist/Socialist system,make no mistake this is a Communist revolution" reeks of ignorance in so many ways. I highly suspect that like most who cry "socialism" you don't have a clue what it even is...all you know is that it is Republican "war" cry, therefore it must be bad. There have been, and will be, many so-called socialist programs in this country for decades upon decades...thank goodness. The Military, highway intrastructure, fire departments, police, postal service, farm subsidies, CIA, FBI, congressional healthcare, Welfare, Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, EPA, Public Schools, Jails/Prisons, business subsidies, Veterans Healthcare, Public parks, ALL elected officials, food stamps, Court System, IRS, FDA, corporate bailouts, unemployment insurance, Public transportation, PBS, CDC, FEMA, NPR, OSHA, USDA (US dept of Agriculture, Customs and Border Protection, Depts. of Education, Human Services, Energy, the Secret Service, Peace Corps, National Weather Service, and more.... All are examples of Socialism in the USA. Now one can argue the effectiveness of some of them, And while it is certainly true that there is corruption in all to many cases...particularly in our current elected officials, but every citizen in this country is positively affected by some, even many examples of Socialism. Care to argue it further???

Yes, shane, many of the problems tend to evolve in the cities...wow, imagine that. And yes, many, not all, have Democratic elected leadership. I suspect that you will find that it is large cities throughout the world that have the predominance of social problems for any given country, the US is no different.

We have "financial incentivised" the destruction of the African American family by paying them to have children out of wedlock again blaming it on the DNC. Do you really want to go there? You make it sound as though the DNC has set out to destroy the African Americans, yet fail to recognize the same program that you are unfairly characterizing is also available to all races, yes even caucasions.
Now about Education... Again, a HUGE misrepresentation on your part. The public school systems in this country were set up to guarantee all children an opportunity for an education. To determine the amount of federal and state aide a school system would get, the Census is used. In recent years, there has been a concentrated effort to make the public schools pay vouchers so kids could go to expensive Religious and Private schools, thus taking away from the funds a public school needs to do their job. Why in the hell, should my tax dollars to go a Parochial school. If I want my kids to go to a Catholic school, then I will pay for that "privilege". Our public schools have a lot of problems right now, many foisted on them by Federally mandated, but not funded requirements. Having an anti-Education Secretary of Education right now does not help.
Your characterization of Abortion is equally asinine. You really do buy into all the trump baloney, don't you.

Lastly, the latter is attempt to blame "All of these problems" on the Democrats, tells me more about you than it does the Dems. Look to your "fearless" leader for leading this country down a most dangerous path of self-destruction, because that is where we are heading. If changes don't happen this fall, I fear for what this despicable excuse of a president will take us.

Before you ask, let me say that I am not a Democrat or a Republican. I feel that both parties have failed me. I have been an Independent for decades. I have been described as a Fiscal Conservative and a Social Liberal...labels I wear proudly. Oh that note, I will stop, as "debating" further will serve no purpose in your case.
Last edited by Blake on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Blake »

Now, to respond to the question of where are the Americans on this thread. No, I have not been hiding, afraid to face the forum. The simple truth is, that coming and posting at PF1 was not something that crossed my mind, I have far too many other concerns to deal with.

I will first address the racial tensions we are experiencing. I, like most Americans, was appalled when I saw the video of what happened to Mr.Floyd... how could any sane person not be? What is even more depressing is that I was not shocked. In my 70+ years, I have seen racism in this country, sometimes more just under the surface, but often without even an attempt to disquise it. While, one cannot say that trump is the cause of these problems, I will say that he has made the grounds more fertile for the white supremist with his incendiary rhetoric, so he, and those who enable him, must share some of the blame. I have hopes that George Floyd will become a sign of change, not only in the USA, but world-wide. We simply must learn to accept others, regardless of color. I have seen racism up close in my own ancestors, and am ever so grateful that my father moves us away from that environment at an early age. I have to admit that I just don't understand it. I can only hope that we see change in this country, in particular, changes in attitudes, changes in police procedures, changes in our courts, but mostly changes in our hearts. However, it can only happen if people stand up to those who perpetuate such behavior, thus, it can't end with a few weeks of protest, it has to be a significant acceptance that we can do better, be better. On big step in that process has to happen this November for our country, if trump is re-elected, I fear greatly for the future of this country.

Now about the Covid19 in this country. Again, no president was going to be able to stop it from spreading here in the USA, but we sure could have done a better job handling it, and saved THOUSANDS of lives, in my opinion. In early March, I was in London and Portugal, returning to the US on March 10. As flew back on a near empty 747 into JFK, I was shocked to be off the plane, through Customs, Baggage Claim and outside the airport in about 30 minutes. Even on March 10, no one asked what countries I had been in, if I had a fever, or other symptoms. There was no social distancing or masks, and our "president" was suggesting that the virus was a Democratic "hoax" and his minions believed every word of it. For all they knew, I could have come home from China or Italy, they didn't care. That is a failure of leadership. Then we had the armed protests at state capitols to force opening up businesses (ironic isn't it, how those were OK, and protests for brutality deaths are not???) Of course, the difference is that they were white people with guns... sadly, I believe that had they been black people with guns it would have been resisted with violent force, but that belongs in the previous paragraph. As a 72 year old man with diabetes and kidney disease, I am naturally very concerned. I was concerned when I saw that lack of leadership, I was concerned with the slowness of our response, I was/am concerned about the push to open when it is really risky, and very concerned with the people at the beaches and bars, and now those in the protests who are not following common safety suggestions. I don't know that the US is going to see a second wave, instead just an ever increasing first wave...we are already seeing growing numbers from the "openings", now we will have much more from the protests. And... Trump sees the protests as justifications for his "glorify me" rallies. Sheesh.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I have been around long enough to know that we... the USA and the World... need to change in oh so many ways. Now obviously, I won't be on this earth long enough to see all that has to happen, but I sure hope to see a good start.

OK, you have heard enough from me. To all my forum friends (yes, I do have a few!), I hope you are all well. Take care, everyone, be safe, be smart, and don't worry so much about the F1 season, or where they are going to race, let us resolve the really serious issues, then get back to racing.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by oz_karter »

Blake wrote:Now, to respond to the question of where are the Americans on this thread. No, I have not been hiding, afraid to face the forum. The simple truth is, that coming and posting at PF1 was not something that crossed my mind, I have far too many other concerns to deal with...
Great post Blake. All the best to you and your family. Stay safe.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Blake »

oz_karter wrote:
Blake wrote:Now, to respond to the question of where are the Americans on this thread. No, I have not been hiding, afraid to face the forum. The simple truth is, that coming and posting at PF1 was not something that crossed my mind, I have far too many other concerns to deal with...
Great post Blake. All the best to you and your family. Stay safe.

I am trying to stay safe, my friend. Thank you for the good wishes, same to you. Like everyone...almost everyone, I too am getting bored staying mostly at home. However, now that the weather is nice, I do get the toy out for some top-down motoring...lots of social distancing and still fun!
:D
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:Let's run a few stories and see who is comfortable about all of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIPgYeR5KLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aQ02YX7qo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-hMoszGR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBqvlgeRpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fockTm8qw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0w9H7jJp7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHD2LUaar8g

Defunding the police, I wonder how many on here would be happy at having to find their own means to protect themselves?

You've posted a load of right-wing propaganda - seems to be all opinion pieces with no actual reporting on facts. What am I meant to be uncomfortable with?
Maybe things like the BLM wanting to defund the police?
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote: It wasn't 4 white officers that held down George Floyd, apparently they were white, black, hispanic and asian, obviously the white officer was the chief instigator, Floyd's breathing was also impaired by the officer leaning on his back, but again loose reporting to give a different overview and I have to wonder why?
If you're going to make outrageous statements like this at least do some research first. A quick google search will show you that two of the officers are clearly caucasion, one seems to have relations tied to south-east Asia, and the other I cannot identify (but clearly not black). I'll remind you this is a Black Lives Matter protest, not a Hispanic or Asian Lives Matter protest.

It was three non-black officers that held them down, with one officer standing there clearly not caring for the fact that George Floyd had lost consciousness.

This is clearly a systemic issue, reinforced by the fact that all 57 Buffalo officers resigned from their duties in support of the officer who pushed a 75 year old man and left him in critical condition.

I would refrain from commenting further on this issue if I were you, before you accidentally say something offensive.
So you will concede that only 2 of the officers were white whilst on C4 news yesterday they ran with the story that all the officers were white, when I see inaccurate reporting then I see a narrative.

I saw an interview with black footballer Raheem Sterling who complained that only a third of professional footballers in the country are black, in England 3% of the population is black whilst 87% are white, look at the ridiculous contradiction that's more like racism against white people yet they ran with the story obviously thinking that people are stupid and would just lap it up as they look in every knuck and cranny for racism.
I literally know nothing about C4 so I can't comment on this, nor do I generally get news from news channels. I still don't know what you're inferring with the fact that all four officers weren't caucasian. Racism doesn't stop at white people, it can be instigated by any person of colour. It is just disproportionally aimed at African American people, to an excessive and fatal level.

I find it needless to cherry pick Sterling's comments on why 'only' a third of footballers are black, obviously he himself doesn't understand the demographics, and news channels will generally sensationalise what influential people will say. It raises another issue, which I would be on your side with - oftentimes certain sectors will promote diversity to an unhealthy amount so much so that a minority population in a field will be given more job opportunities than a typical person applying for that same field.
Pokerman hasn't cherry picked Sterling's comments because that is not what Sterling has said. He has either deliberately misquoted him and turned what he did say from being a valid criticism to a piece of fiction or he has just parroted a populist right wing opinion piece, like the ones in the 'sources' he provided.

Sterling said that given that one third of footballers in the league are black, the fact that they are barely represented further up the chain of command shows there is still a strong bias against them. Managers are former players and if there wasn't bias you would expect to see the proportion mirrored higher up. It is a valid criticism.
Fair enough I missed that, it did go further into the issue you mentioned in the program, there has been black managers unfortunately they have often failed, in sports you always want the best in order to succeed, no racism when it comes to picking the players themselves.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:Let's run a few stories and see who is comfortable about all of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIPgYeR5KLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aQ02YX7qo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-hMoszGR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBqvlgeRpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fockTm8qw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0w9H7jJp7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHD2LUaar8g

Defunding the police, I wonder how many on here would be happy at having to find their own means to protect themselves?
Only someone trying to whip up hysteria by putting the false idea that people have to defend themselves against organised crime would push the agenda that it means scrapping the police altog... oh, it's Tucker Carslon. Enough said.
Thanks for saving me from accidentally exposing myself to Tucker Carslon! x(

In case you didn't know pokerman, Carlson is a propaganda man for whatever far-right agenda pays him. Nothing he says can be taken as serious or even factual.
Fair enough.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote: If you're going to make outrageous statements like this at least do some research first. A quick google search will show you that two of the officers are clearly caucasion, one seems to have relations tied to south-east Asia, and the other I cannot identify (but clearly not black). I'll remind you this is a Black Lives Matter protest, not a Hispanic or Asian Lives Matter protest.

It was three non-black officers that held them down, with one officer standing there clearly not caring for the fact that George Floyd had lost consciousness.

This is clearly a systemic issue, reinforced by the fact that all 57 Buffalo officers resigned from their duties in support of the officer who pushed a 75 year old man and left him in critical condition.

I would refrain from commenting further on this issue if I were you, before you accidentally say something offensive.
So you will concede that only 2 of the officers were white whilst on C4 news yesterday they ran with the story that all the officers were white, when I see inaccurate reporting then I see a narrative.

I saw an interview with black footballer Raheem Sterling who complained that only a third of professional footballers in the country are black, in England 3% of the population is black whilst 87% are white, look at the ridiculous contradiction that's more like racism against white people yet they ran with the story obviously thinking that people are stupid and would just lap it up as they look in every knuck and cranny for racism.
I literally know nothing about C4 so I can't comment on this, nor do I generally get news from news channels. I still don't know what you're inferring with the fact that all four officers weren't caucasian. Racism doesn't stop at white people, it can be instigated by any person of colour. It is just disproportionally aimed at African American people, to an excessive and fatal level.

I find it needless to cherry pick Sterling's comments on why 'only' a third of footballers are black, obviously he himself doesn't understand the demographics, and news channels will generally sensationalise what influential people will say. It raises another issue, which I would be on your side with - oftentimes certain sectors will promote diversity to an unhealthy amount so much so that a minority population in a field will be given more job opportunities than a typical person applying for that same field.
Pokerman hasn't cherry picked Sterling's comments because that is not what Sterling has said. He has either deliberately misquoted him and turned what he did say from being a valid criticism to a piece of fiction or he has just parroted a populist right wing opinion piece, like the ones in the 'sources' he provided.

Sterling said that given that one third of footballers in the league are black, the fact that they are barely represented further up the chain of command shows there is still a strong bias against them. Managers are former players and if there wasn't bias you would expect to see the proportion mirrored higher up. It is a valid criticism.
Thanks for the clarity, I probably shouldn't have assumed what Sterling had said. I did actually hear Ruud Gullet talking about this very issue on SkySportsNews today, which as you say is a valid criticism.
Gullit himself managed several clubs but never lasted much more than a season at each club before being sacked, in sports you can't always give jobs to people in order to meet a quota.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Herb »

pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:Let's run a few stories and see who is comfortable about all of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIPgYeR5KLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aQ02YX7qo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-hMoszGR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBqvlgeRpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fockTm8qw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0w9H7jJp7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHD2LUaar8g

Defunding the police, I wonder how many on here would be happy at having to find their own means to protect themselves?

You've posted a load of right-wing propaganda - seems to be all opinion pieces with no actual reporting on facts. What am I meant to be uncomfortable with?
Maybe things like the BLM wanting to defund the police?
You really should read a thread before posting all your replies. This has been discussed. The idea is to change how policing is done. Not to disband all policing. That would be moronic.

Regarding football. The implication is that currently there is systemic racism which is causing the under representation in management - so current managers might not have their job if they weren't white.

Do you really think the real cause is that black people are less skilled at management? Because that is what you seem to be suggesting.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by kleefton »

Blake wrote:
ShaneM wrote:This is now 90% politics and 10% race (if even that), when you start executing African Amercian police officers that served the community for over 40 years (just one of many African American Law Enforcement Officers that have been executed), or spray painting F Israel on the side of a Synagoge before setting it on fire or saying you are going to burn the diamond disctrict in NYC (mostly Jewish owned), or stabbing a NYPD officer (which is a Minority majority orginazation, and has been for quite a while) while saying Islmaic terorist slogans, or beat the hell out of member of the LGBT community while saying homophobic slurs, or attacking a Childrens hospital, or preventing Fire Department from getting to a house on fire with the family still in it, or chanting eat the rich, or F capitalism while on your IPhone (and I could go on and on about this kind of stuff) it is no longer about race. And everyone from the Police to Trump immediately condemned George Floyd's murder and said they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This is about violently overthrowing the US government (and all other Free Western Societies) and installing a Socialist/ Communist system, make no mistake this is a communist revolution.

If we want to have a serious discussion on Race let's have one, why are all the worst cities in the country for crime, poverty, drugs, and schools all completely owned and run by the Democratic Party, and have been for 50-100 years. Why have we financially incentivised the dictruction of the African American Family by paying them to have children outside of wedlock, guarunteing the child will not have a Father (DNC again). Why are the School boards preventing families from deciding for themselves what schools there children may attend. Why do we endlessly tell them that Government can solve all there problems, but never do. Why is it that inner city African Americans (unless you have one in million athletic skills) can only look to crime to get there slice of the American Dream. Why have we aborted millions of African American babies via abortion, and allowed companies like Planned Parenthood to then chop up the babies parts and sell them for profit (that news just came out in recently and was completely buried by the news). All of these problems are all created and perpetuated by the DNC, but the inner city African Americans will still blindly vote for DNC politicians 99% of the time, WHY?
I was going to ignore this and hope you would just go away, but after reading it again, I couldn't let you get away with such asinine comments, shane. You have unfairly turned many things into an anti-Democrat issue and I, for one, feel it is YOU and others like you, who are playing politics. The bullsh!t claim that this is "violently overthrowing the US government" and "installing a Communist/Socialist system,make no mistake this is a Communist revolution" reeks of ignorance in so many ways. I highly suspect that like most who cry "socialism" you don't have a clue what it even is...all you know is that it is Republican "war" cry, therefore it must be bad. There have been, and will be, many so-called socialist programs in this country for decades upon decades...thank goodness. The Military, highway intrastructure, fire departments, police, postal service, farm subsidies, CIA, FBI, congressional healthcare, Welfare, Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, EPA, Public Schools, Jails/Prisons, business subsidies, Veterans Healthcare, Public parks, ALL elected officials, food stamps, Court System, IRS, FDA, corporate bailouts, unemployment insurance, Public transportation, PBS, CDC, FEMA, NPR, OSHA, USDA (US dept of Agriculture, Customs and Border Protection, Depts. of Education, Human Services, Energy, the Secret Service, Peace Corps, National Weather Service, and more.... All are examples of Socialism in the USA. Now one can argue the effectiveness of some of them, And while it is certainly true that there is corruption in all to many cases...particularly in our current elected officials, but every citizen in this country is positively affected by some, even many examples of Socialism. Care to argue it further???

Yes, shane, many of the problems tend to evolve in the cities...wow, imagine that. And yes, many, not all, have Democratic elected leadership. I suspect that you will find that it is large cities throughout the world that have the predominance of social problems for any given country, the US is no different.

We have "financial incentivised" the destruction of the African American family by paying them to have children out of wedlock again blaming it on the DNC. Do you really want to go there? You make it sound as though the DNC has set out to destroy the African Americans, yet fail to recognize the same program that you are unfairly characterizing is also available to all races, yes even caucasions.
Now about Education... Again, a HUGE misrepresentation on your part. The public school systems in this country were set up to guarantee all children an opportunity for an education. To determine the amount of federal and state aide a school system would get, the Census is used. In recent years, there has been a concentrated effort to make the public schools pay vouchers so kids could go to expensive Religious and Private schools, thus taking away from the funds a public school needs to do their job. Why in the hell, should my tax dollars to go a Parochial school. If I want my kids to go to a Catholic school, then I will pay for that "privilege". Our public schools have a lot of problems right now, many foisted on them by Federally mandated, but not funded requirements. Having an anti-Education Secretary of Education right now does not help.
Your characterization of Abortion is equally asinine. You really do buy into all the trump baloney, don't you.

Lastly, the latter is attempt to blame "All of these problems" on the Democrats, tells me more about you than it does the Dems. Look to your "fearless" leader for leading this country down a most dangerous path of self-destruction, because that is where we are heading. If changes don't happen this fall, I fear for what this despicable excuse of a president will take us.

Before you ask, let me say that I am not a Democrat or a Republican. I feel that both parties have failed me. I have been an Independent for decades. I have been described as a Fiscal Conservative and a Social Liberal...labels I wear proudly. Oh that note, I will stop, as "debating" further will serve no purpose in your case.
There is a lot of truth there Blake. Great post.

And I must correct Shane in that the poorest cities and states in America are actually mostly ran by Republicans. NYC is the richest city in the country and it is only broke now because of Covid. So let's not bend the facts to fit our narratives.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Blake »

Thanks, Kleefton.
It is true that it is cities like New York, Chicago and L.A. Contribute greatly to our economy and the Federal coffers, which is why it is so ironic that they are the ones accused of draining it. Just ascribe wanted his lemmings to "Liberate" states (with Democratic governors) during his Open the Economy rants, he has also tried to play the cities against each other as well...strangely, few cities or states with Republican governors or mayors, respectively, have been victim to his tweet wars. As General Mattis said, we have never, at least in my lifetime had a president so intent on dividing this country...which is why I am so fearful for our future.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by F1Oz »

I support all those who have suffered abuse or discrimination

We have had protests in Australia - incorporating not only black lives matter from the US but black lives matter in Australia - where we have had a number of issues also

What is important is to acknowledge that all lives matter

I hope that this is a pivotal moment which recognises this and where we can come together to finally refuse to accept bigotry and raciscm

it is a time for leaders to stand up - and if they don't - for god's sake - don't vote for them

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Asphalt_World »

People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Exediron »

Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Jezza13 »

Exediron wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
It's this one, trust me.
Well hold on a second. That's a pretty broad brush to tar people with.

I can tell you now that no-one will force me to get down on bended knee & repeat some mantra just so I can be seen fit in with what's trending. Like F1Oz I believe we're all equal no matter what. That "all lives matter". So does that automatically mean i'm racist? If you say yes, then you know what, you can get well & truly ******.

To me, & this is a personal view, most people doing things like getting down on bended knee or wearing a ribbon, chanting a slogan, or, as some Hollywood actors seem compelled to do, get on You Tube in some weird act of conveniently timed self awareness, are being nothing more than tokenistic, patronizing & pandering to the mob in the name of self interest & preservation.

Do you honestly think everyone who stood on the side of the street with right arm raised in 1938 Munich supported the cause? C'mon, of course not. They did because they knew if they didn't then they'd be labeled dissenters & be handled accordingly. While obviously not as extreme as the actions in Nazi Germany, to me the principle's the same. "You don't pledge allegiance to the cause, in every aspect and exactly as how we say you should, you will pay".

I'll tell you the problem i'm having with all these revisionist views on equality, privilege & wokeness. I'm a middle aged white man. Now I suppose in some peoples views that'll immediately invalidate anything I have to say but I don't give a sh1t. I grew up in a middle class family. For my entire life, my parents, extended family, teachers, my community drummed 1 thing into me & those of my vintage.

"WE SHOULD ALL BE TREATED THE SAME. NO MATTER SKIN COLOUR. NO MATTER MAN OR WOMAN. NO MATTER WHO WE ARE. WE'RE ALL THE SAME".

All I heard from minority communities were that they just wanted the same as others. They wanted society to see them & treat them as equals.

Of course, on a micro level, there are differences, but from a macro point of view, that's exactly how I've structured 40 odd years of my life & for most of those years it's held me in good stead. But now, all of a sudden, those very same values that society raised me on, those same values that up until recently seemed to be a perfectly acceptable way to view my fellow people, & those same values that minorities at the time wanted me to see them, now have me branded as a racist, a bigot, a homophobe & a misogynist. Now, simply because of what I am, I need to acknowledge that i'm the problem & I should live the rest of my life feeling guilty because of it. Well stuff that.

I'm not going to sit here & detail the things i've done in my life to help those less fortunate than me no matter who they are because I don't feel I need to justify myself to anyone & besides, I get the feeling no matter what I say, to some it would make no difference, as long as I refuse to sing from the same song book, i'm a racist.

I could rant on for another 20 paragraphs about the role the media, the GOP & the DNC, corporations & others have played in all of this but maybe another time.

I will not bow to the chants & demands of the mob, but that doesn't mean i'm racist. I'd rather be true to myself thanks. I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knee.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
It's this one, trust me.
Well hold on a second. That's a pretty broad brush to tar people with.

I can tell you now that no-one will force me to get down on bended knee & repeat some mantra just so I can be seen fit in with what's trending. Like F1Oz I believe we're all equal no matter what. That "all lives matter". So does that automatically mean i'm racist? If you say yes, then you know what, you can get well & truly ******.
The most important thing to establish here is that "Black Lives Matter" is not being said in a context free environment.

The next thing to say is that if someone reads "Black Lives Matter" and autocorrects 'Only' at the beginning or 'more than other lives' at the end - even in a context free vacuum - the first time I'll give someone a pass for lazy analysis. The next time I'll accept that maybe they are an idiot, but if they repeated starting reading that way with the background of repeated disproportionate police behaviour towards them, then I think that the label of racism is completely fair.

The meaning of Black Lives Matter, in the context - and it's the only possible meaning - is "as much as other lives", or "too" if you want brevity. When the police are routinely killing or using extreme violence against non white people, with an emphasis on black people, saying that their lives matters is highlighting the fact that they are being treated like they don't.

"All Lives Matter" also has context. If someone were to say it in a vacuum then of course nothing is wrong. But it's not being said in a vacuum, it's being said as a response to people saying "Black Lives Matter", as a retort, to try and silence or muffle the protect and if someone is trying to silence or muffle a legitimate protest against racism then that person can justifiably be called a racist.

If someone was loudly and proudly shouting "All Lives Matter" before the "Black Lives Matter" slogan arose (which was long before George Floyd) then that would be different. But I never once heard the slogan "All Lives Matter" other than as a response to "Black Lives Matter" and consequentially that is what makes it racist.

Black Lives Matter is the campaign to highlight how black lives are being treated as almost disposable, and if you are actively trying to smoother that campaign then you don't actually think 'all lives matter' after all.
Jezza13 wrote:To me, & this is a personal view, most people doing things like getting down on bended knee or wearing a ribbon, chanting a slogan, or, as some Hollywood actors seem compelled to do, get on You Tube in some weird act of conveniently timed self awareness, are being nothing more than tokenistic, patronizing & pandering to the mob in the name of self interest & preservation.

Do you honestly think everyone who stood on the side of the street with right arm raised in 1938 Munich supported the cause? C'mon, of course not. They did because they knew if they didn't then they'd be labeled dissenters & be handled accordingly. While obviously not as extreme as the actions in Nazi Germany, to me the principle's the same. "You don't pledge allegiance to the cause, in every aspect and exactly as how we say you should, you will pay".
Thousands of people turned out during a pandemic, when they knew they were risking their health, to attend these protests. They peacefully protested against police who they knew were indiscriminately firing teargas and baton rounds at them, as well as openly targeting the press. The teargas thing isn't even new to this demonstration - there have been videos of American police going up to seated protesters and unloading teargas at point blank range in their faces long before this round of protesters.

For protesters to turn up in that environment and protest - when the COVID19 pandemic gives them the perfect excuse not to turn up - shows they are not just doing it to be trendy.

Comparing an antifascist protest to 1938 Germany is quite frankly impossible to respond to. Not showing support for a non centralised movement, versus not showing support for a police state that could have you imprisoned or worse? It's not a stretch, it snapped before it got there.
Jezza13 wrote:I'll tell you the problem i'm having with all these revisionist views on equality, privilege & wokeness. I'm a middle aged white man. Now I suppose in some peoples views that'll immediately invalidate anything I have to say but I don't give a sh1t. I grew up in a middle class family. For my entire life, my parents, extended family, teachers, my community drummed 1 thing into me & those of my vintage.

"WE SHOULD ALL BE TREATED THE SAME. NO MATTER SKIN COLOUR. NO MATTER MAN OR WOMAN. NO MATTER WHO WE ARE. WE'RE ALL THE SAME".

All I heard from minority communities were that they just wanted the same as others. They wanted society to see them & treat them as equals.

Of course, on a micro level, there are differences, but from a macro point of view, that's exactly how I've structured 40 odd years of my life & for most of those years it's held me in good stead. But now, all of a sudden, those very same values that society raised me on, those same values that up until recently seemed to be a perfectly acceptable way to view my fellow people, & those same values that minorities at the time wanted me to see them, now have me branded as a racist, a bigot, a homophobe & a misogynist. Now, simply because of what I am, I need to acknowledge that i'm the problem & I should live the rest of my life feeling guilty because of it. Well stuff that.
I don't know you, I don't know what you have said or done to attract those criticisms, whether there is justification, misunderstanding, a culture clash, or if they are completely unfair.

If you have genuinely lived you life to those ideals then it's probably one of the last three, and there is just as much ignorance about what is racist or sexist or homophobic, or misinterpretation.

However BLM is not about casting guilt. Guilt achieves nothing. It's something that people like Boris Johnson often throw around as a reason not to do anything - for example British Colonialism was removed from school history lessons in Britain by Michael Gove because he said 'he didn't want British children to feel guilty' ... the real reason is that when you are building a populist, nationalist government you don't want the shine taken off of the brand image.
Jezza13 wrote:I'm not going to sit here & detail the things i've done in my life to help those less fortunate than me no matter who they are because I don't feel I need to justify myself to anyone & besides, I get the feeling no matter what I say, to some it would make no difference, as long as I refuse to sing from the same song book, i'm a racist.

I could rant on for another 20 paragraphs about the role the media, the GOP & the DNC, corporations & others have played in all of this but maybe another time.

I will not bow to the chants & demands of the mob, but that doesn't mean i'm racist. I'd rather be true to myself thanks. I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knee.
It is admirable that you have helped people less fortunate than yourself, but I am failing to understand what exactly your complaints about Black Lives Matter is. No one is asking you to sacrifice anything.

You don't have to feel guilty, you don't have to brand yourself a racist.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Asphalt_World »

In simple terms, I don't have to attend a rally or go down on one knee to support Black Lives Matter. I just have to understand the reason for the movement and support it in my day to day life. All Lives Matter is a complete joke and those campaigning for this have serious issues in their life.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:Let's run a few stories and see who is comfortable about all of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIPgYeR5KLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aQ02YX7qo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t-hMoszGR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBqvlgeRpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fockTm8qw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0w9H7jJp7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHD2LUaar8g

Defunding the police, I wonder how many on here would be happy at having to find their own means to protect themselves?

You've posted a load of right-wing propaganda - seems to be all opinion pieces with no actual reporting on facts. What am I meant to be uncomfortable with?
Maybe things like the BLM wanting to defund the police?
You really should read a thread before posting all your replies. This has been discussed. The idea is to change how policing is done. Not to disband all policing. That would be moronic.

Regarding football. The implication is that currently there is systemic racism which is causing the under representation in management - so current managers might not have their job if they weren't white.

Do you really think the real cause is that black people are less skilled at management? Because that is what you seem to be suggesting.
I read an article the defunding the police relates to problems in the US and not the UK but doesn't stop the police in the UK from being attacked.

There are some extremists that do in fact want the police to be disbanded, I'm just wondering how defunding improves the policing in itself short of the police just being better trained, apparently even the democrats are against it.

Lets not pretend that I've not posted things on here that obviously just get dismissed, people running with the idea of having no police and such a situation will only be unfortunate for the privileged, these people are given air time.

With the football situation I was just saying can clubs really afford to ignore talent just because of skin colour, black players do get coaching jobs so it's not a shut out on the basis of an automatic default.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
It's this one, trust me.
Well hold on a second. That's a pretty broad brush to tar people with.

I can tell you now that no-one will force me to get down on bended knee & repeat some mantra just so I can be seen fit in with what's trending. Like F1Oz I believe we're all equal no matter what. That "all lives matter". So does that automatically mean i'm racist? If you say yes, then you know what, you can get well & truly ******.

To me, & this is a personal view, most people doing things like getting down on bended knee or wearing a ribbon, chanting a slogan, or, as some Hollywood actors seem compelled to do, get on You Tube in some weird act of conveniently timed self awareness, are being nothing more than tokenistic, patronizing & pandering to the mob in the name of self interest & preservation.

Do you honestly think everyone who stood on the side of the street with right arm raised in 1938 Munich supported the cause? C'mon, of course not. They did because they knew if they didn't then they'd be labeled dissenters & be handled accordingly. While obviously not as extreme as the actions in Nazi Germany, to me the principle's the same. "You don't pledge allegiance to the cause, in every aspect and exactly as how we say you should, you will pay".

I'll tell you the problem i'm having with all these revisionist views on equality, privilege & wokeness. I'm a middle aged white man. Now I suppose in some peoples views that'll immediately invalidate anything I have to say but I don't give a sh1t. I grew up in a middle class family. For my entire life, my parents, extended family, teachers, my community drummed 1 thing into me & those of my vintage.

"WE SHOULD ALL BE TREATED THE SAME. NO MATTER SKIN COLOUR. NO MATTER MAN OR WOMAN. NO MATTER WHO WE ARE. WE'RE ALL THE SAME".

All I heard from minority communities were that they just wanted the same as others. They wanted society to see them & treat them as equals.

Of course, on a micro level, there are differences, but from a macro point of view, that's exactly how I've structured 40 odd years of my life & for most of those years it's held me in good stead. But now, all of a sudden, those very same values that society raised me on, those same values that up until recently seemed to be a perfectly acceptable way to view my fellow people, & those same values that minorities at the time wanted me to see them, now have me branded as a racist, a bigot, a homophobe & a misogynist. Now, simply because of what I am, I need to acknowledge that i'm the problem & I should live the rest of my life feeling guilty because of it. Well stuff that.

I'm not going to sit here & detail the things i've done in my life to help those less fortunate than me no matter who they are because I don't feel I need to justify myself to anyone & besides, I get the feeling no matter what I say, to some it would make no difference, as long as I refuse to sing from the same song book, i'm a racist.

I could rant on for another 20 paragraphs about the role the media, the GOP & the DNC, corporations & others have played in all of this but maybe another time.

I will not bow to the chants & demands of the mob, but that doesn't mean i'm racist. I'd rather be true to myself thanks. I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knee.
Basically if you disagree with any of the BLM mantra then you risk being labelled a racist, let's not forget that the movement has extended to attacking British history.

Anyone who voted in the present UK government are seen as right wing faschists supported by the media and the labour Mayor of London who labelled the people as such looking to protect the statues, and the new norm is being put forward as the left wing marxists.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by pokerman »

Winston Churchill removed from google but not Stalin or Hitler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy4G2xUgXU4
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Banana Man »

Just to add my two cents...

1. I don’t think people saying ‘all lives matter’ are racist, that’s a fairly bizarre twist in logic which I can’t really fathom. It’s clumsy more than anything and I don’t think the people who say it really intend it as some people are perhaps interpreting it. Obviously all lives matter but in the context of these issues it’s not really a helpful thing to say and somewhat dilutes the point being made.

2. RE: football managers, I refuse to accept there’s an element of racism there. Clubs are more than happy to employ a large number of black players and some of them are amongst the best paid in the world. The people who own and run these clubs will recruit whoever they think can give them money. I can’t see why any director of football would be so indiscriminate as to recruit black players but ignore black managers. I don’t know what the reasons are that black managers are under represented but there’s nobody out there who strikes me as being unfairly overlooked.

3. The Churchill Google thing seems like a non-story to me. Whatever the reason (and it’s probably some tedious admin issue) it’s obviously not because Google morally objected to having his profile up.

4. Both sides of the violence are as bad as each other. What started out with noble intentions has sadly just descended into the usual tribal warfare between the far left and the far right.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Charles LeBrad »

Yeah, the 'All Lives Matter' line is very clumsy and naieve. Im finding people who are saying this aren't realising that until black lives matter equally, not all lives matter.
You cant say all lives matter when minorities are being treated the way they are.

All lives cant matter until they all matter equally.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Jezza13 »

Charles LeBrad wrote:Yeah, the 'All Lives Matter' line is very clumsy and naieve. Im finding people who are saying this aren't realising that until black lives matter equally, not all lives matter.
You cant say all lives matter when minorities are being treated the way they are.

All lives cant matter until they all matter equally.
Ah I dunno. Maybe you're right.

Until everyone is suffering from Police brutality & shootings equally, maybe we should just concentrate on 1 section instead of addressing the whole issue.

Makes sense to me.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

pokerman wrote:Winston Churchill removed from google but not Stalin or Hitler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy4G2xUgXU4
Holy crap my confidence in the intelligence of my fellow Briton has taken a sharp nosedive. The idea that Google would decide to remove Churchill's image is a) not in line with the reasons a minority of people who have said his statue should be taken down (because a statue is put up to celebrate an individual, and Google's timeline is a historical record and b) given that Hitler's image is shown by Google, fails just on a basic logic test that they have some moral reason for it.

Whoever caused the image to disappear (assuming it wasn't just a technical glitch) did it solely to cause outrage. And anyone who doesn't realise that after a little bit of thought is a complete and utter gullible moron and is the fuel for the fire that those seeking to cause the outrage are trying to ignite.

It doesn't require any understanding about how search engines organise data, or computers, to be able to reach that conclusion, it's as simple as:

a) The discussion about removing Churchill's statue is a political issue right now
b) Churchill image disappeared from Google's knowledge graph
c) The images of objectively far worse people remained in Google's knowledge graph
d) Churchill's image was the only notable person who this happened to

If you continue to believe that Google decided to remove Churchill's image to make a political statement then you just want to believe it because you want to be outraged.

(And before I continue, the image of Churchill is appearing for me, even when I use a VPN to appear in the UK, so I am assuming that is the case for everyone)

I am a software engineer and I studied modules in both machine learning and AI in my degree - I am certainly by no means an expert in either but I have a general overview about how these things work, and Google uses AI and Machine Learning to create its results. It's not curated by humans, although humans can step in and override the computers decisions if they have been discovered to make an error. My main line of work is with web servers and have worked in that field for over 20 years.

Google does not manually enter information, it gathers it all by having its computers automatically search and gather information from other websites.

At a simple level, if Google was referencing just a single website as a source and that source website has a technical issue, or if the link to the image is broken, or is sabotaged, then the image will be represented by that blank placeholder as Google's search engine cannot find an image.

Likewise, someone could - if they wanted to create outrage - replace the image Google is referencing as Churchill with a copy of that blank placeholder image and thus when Google next crawls the website it will update the image to be its default blank placeholder.

But the most likely explanation is the simplest. Since the criticism of Churchill has had a spotlight shone on it, suddenly people have been taking it upon themselves to research the topic. And where do most people do their research, the Internet.

This will have caused a huge traffic spike to most Churchill related websites meaning that their servers became overloaded and would have either very slow or even failing to respond to a lot of a requests. It's also probable that a lot of servers under demand would automatically not return responses to search engine bots to increase the service being given to the human visitors. They will also prioritise text information over images as images take up far more server resources and bandwidth to return.

Thus when Google's image spider went to do its periodic check on the Churchill image, it probably 404ed. On its own this wouldn't be an issue, but it would have happened multiple times, and this is probably an unprecedented event regarding such a famous individual but the consequence was that the algorithm therefore removed the image because it repeatedly failed to fetch.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Herb »

pokerman wrote: Basically if you disagree with any of the BLM mantra then you risk being labelled a racist, let's not forget that the movement has extended to attacking British history.
I mean, if you disagree with the statement "Black Lives Matter", then you are factually a racist. No whataboutism or diversion here - if you disagree with that very simple statement, then it means you think that Black Lives Don't Matter. Now I am absolutely certain that doesn't apply to you, so I'm not sure what your problem is.

But to my main point, who is attacking "British History" exactly?

Here's some reading from an actual historian on the Colston statue:

https://twitter.com/KateWilliamsme/stat ... 1973516290
https://twitter.com/KateWilliamsme/stat ... 9820190728

If anything, the removal of that statue has shone a light on a dark period of our past, leading to more people learning about it. That's not an attack. This is not about rewriting history - this is about actually learning it, and not the whitewashed version of it we are often taught in school.

--

I notice you have not commented on this weekends appalling behaviour in London. Those who supposedly went to protect the statues from a cancelled protest ended up getting drunk, fighting with police and one actually urinated on a memorial. There were over 100 arrests and 23 police officers injured.

My local BLM protest was peaceful, no injuries, no arrests - the only report of trouble has been from some BLM protesters that were abused by people "protecting" the cenotaph whilst on their way home, and a local reporter who was attacked by the same group.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Banana Man »

Herb wrote:My local BLM protest was peaceful, no injuries, no arrests - the only report of trouble has been from some BLM protesters that were abused by people "protecting" the cenotaph whilst on their way home, and a local reporter who was attacked by the same group.
I’m not sure where your local protest was but there has been plenty of trouble and some violence at both the BLM protests and the counter rallies.

RE: Statues, people like Colston belong in museums. A statue is more of a celebration of that person, which is obviously not an acceptable modern day view of a slave trader. The vandalism of the Cenotaph and Churchill statues though is disgusting and suggests to me the people doing it are too thick to know the first thing about history.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Herb »

Banana Man wrote:
Herb wrote:My local BLM protest was peaceful, no injuries, no arrests - the only report of trouble has been from some BLM protesters that were abused by people "protecting" the cenotaph whilst on their way home, and a local reporter who was attacked by the same group.
I’m not sure where your local protest was but there has been plenty of trouble and some violence at both the BLM protests and the counter rallies.

RE: Statues, people like Colston belong in museums. A statue is more of a celebration of that person, which is obviously not an acceptable modern day view of a slave trader. The vandalism of the Cenotaph and Churchill statues though is disgusting and suggests to me the people doing it are too thick to know the first thing about history.

Sorry - I should have been specific - I was talking about this weekend's protests.

Regarding the defacement of statues - yeh, I'm uncomfortable about that. But I don't think just because they have been erected at some point in our past that they are somehow sacrosanct. Statues don't teach us history. To put it politely, Churchill was no saint, however we like to depict him.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

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I think if we’re only erecting statues of Saints without sin, there’re going to be a lot of empty space popping up around the city centres. Churchill, Mandela, Theresa... all lead colourful lives, with some ‘interesting’ moments along the way.

Overall though, I can’t see how anyone can argue Churchill was anything but a good influence at the time. He may have had some dated views on colonialism but they were not uncommon at the time and shouldn’t be judged by 2020 standards. Whatever he may have said about India is dwarfed by the fact that he lead the free world in the fight against some of the most appalling tyranny Europe has ever seen.

Quite simply, without him black lives really wouldn’t matter. If we’d just done nothing and let the Nazis take over Europe, there would be a knock on the door from the Gestapo and a white, blonde, Aryan man saying, "you are racially inferior, get in the death camp."
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Herb »

Banana Man wrote:I think if we’re only erecting statues of Saints without sin, there’re going to be a lot of empty space popping up around the city centres. Churchill, Mandela, Theresa... all lead colourful lives, with some ‘interesting’ moments along the way.

Overall though, I can’t see how anyone can argue Churchill was anything but a good influence at the time. He may have had some dated views on colonialism but they were not uncommon at the time and shouldn’t be judged by 2020 standards. Whatever he may have said about India is dwarfed by the fact that he lead the free world in the fight against some of the most appalling tyranny Europe has ever seen.

Quite simply, without him black lives really wouldn’t matter. If we’d just done nothing and let the Nazis take over Europe, there would be a knock on the door from the Gestapo and a white, blonde, Aryan man saying, "you are racially inferior, get in the death camp."
That's a strawman, I'm not arguing that - I didn't say his statue should come down.

Churchill was a good influence at the time, he lead the UK and our allies to defeat Nazism - does that mean we can not look back at his flaws? Does that mean he is forgiven his racist views? Why can't we take a look at a person as a whole and decide whether that person deserves being honoured with a statue (On balance, I'd be pro-keeping Churchill for instance).

The frustrating thing about them defacing the Churchill statue is that it takes the attention away from the real subject matter at hand here.
What this has already caused though, is a look at the statues that we do choose to keep. As both London and my local council are doing. We don't need statues for the likes of Colston. Keeping his statue up was not contributing to our understanding of history - it was giving a false representation of our past.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by F1Oz »

Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
Mate - hope that isn't 'all' those - I used it and I am NOT trying to remove focus from anyone - see my post (pre dates yours) - you need context to make comment and I have opposed any biggotry or racism of any source - so you need to have some flexibility in your opinions

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

F1Oz wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
Mate - hope that isn't 'all' those - I used it and I am NOT trying to remove focus from anyone - see my post (pre dates yours) - you need context to make comment and I have opposed any biggotry or racism of any source - so you need to have some flexibility in your opinions
All lives can’t matter until black lives matter though, and it’s clear that currently black lives don’t matter to some people.

The use of ‘all lives matter’ is either ignorant to that, or as AW says, by racists to remove the focus from black people.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Exediron wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
It's this one, trust me.
No, I disagree. While I fully understand and support BLM, and have been on Kapernick's side from the very beginning, because I felt the same way and completely understood that his taking a knee was his way of protesting the injustices and police brutality, and murders occurring against minorities on a regular basis, but seemingly more regularly to black people, peacefully.

And while I fully support the movement, I am Puerto Rican and a born US citizen, and though I'm college educated, I have endured harassment and have been intimidated and brutalized by police my entire life, just the same. And while I have had moments where I questioned why I was being pulled over and/or harassed/detained/my car unjustifiably searched, I've had the presence of mind to recognize when to STFU because these people "with guns" and a false sense of entitlement could at any moment draw and discharge their weapon and end my life needlessly. YES, I've had police draw their weapons on me before and its a terribly scary feeling.

That said, I realize that many people (Not just black people) have pressed the issue, however correct and justified they may have been in questioning why they were being detained and harassed, and it resulted in the officer becoming increasingly agitated to the point they became frustrated and felt like they were being challenged and tensions grow until something terrible occurs.

The issue isn't the people though, it's the officers having a false sense of authority and dominion over those they are supposed to be PROTECTING & SERVING. For whatever reason, many officers develop the God Complex because they feel that having a badge and a gun automatically makes them superior to the rest of humanity, and attitudes change, and the mindset evolves in a very ugly way, and officers forget what it means to be a police officer and to uphold and reinforce that people follow laws in accordance with how they are written.

For me this has nothing to do with Politics and everything to do with the structure of how departments are run, how the personnel are trained, how poorly candidates are screened, and several other factors that lead to officers justifying using excessive force in their own twisted minds. I experienced the God Complex first hand with my cousin's best friend… A kid I used to take to band practice and and drum line competitions, taught about girls, and played paintball with for years. He became a police officer locally and I'd not seen him for close to a year, but I went to pick up a theft report for my 1997 CBR900RR, and he was there and I said "Hey whats up dude!" And this jovial happy go lucky goofy kid, looked at me with a face and said "don't address me like that" with a nasty attitude and I said woah, having a bad day and he just went off on a rant and I had to bring him back down to earth and reminded him that I'm the person who looked out for him when his own parents didn't care to do so, and I reminded him that I could whip his but just like when we were kids and his colleagues told him to calm down.

That was proof positive how becoming a police officer affects certain people, and THIS is precisely why George Floyd died.

HOWEVER… It doesn't just happen to black people, it happens to many minorities and even white people, and thus, while the moniker of Black Lives Matter is justified, so too is All Lives Matter, and it doesn't mean a person who feels that way is automatically insensitive to black people or "frighteningly ignorant", because in fact, EVERY life is precious and NO ONE should lose their life so needlessly. We should all stand together in unity supporting one another rather than make ignorant accusatory statements towards others. And trust me, there are several million Puerto Ricans In New York City alone and I'm sure if you were to ask them, the vast majority would tell you they've been subject to being treated poorly by police and other authoritative figures regularly. And since I grew up there, not only would I be one such person, but I can also speak to how it's no different to how our black friends were treated. We were all inferior, less than human being in their eyes.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Asphalt_World »

F1Oz wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:People who are using the 'all lives matter' phrase are either frighteningly ignorant or intentionally trying to remove the focus from black people because they are racist. It's amazing so many people are using it across the world.
Mate - hope that isn't 'all' those - I used it and I am NOT trying to remove focus from anyone - see my post (pre dates yours) - you need context to make comment and I have opposed any biggotry or racism of any source - so you need to have some flexibility in your opinions
Neither 'AllLivesMatter' nor #WhiteLivesMatter were appearing on twitter, other media or signage during rallies until after #BlackLivesMatter started appearing again. They only appear when marches take place due to even more race hate in the world.

Of course every life matters but as a white person myself. I have not had to run the risk of repeated bullying, attacks, reduced job opportunities that a crazy amount of black people have and still do suffer from.

If #SaveTheTiger started trending, would you really expect any sane person to attempt to get #SaveTheTabbyCat ? No. This, despite the fact that the lives of Tabby Cats are clearly very important.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:HOWEVER… It doesn't just happen to black people, it happens to many minorities and even white people, and thus, while the moniker of Black Lives Matter is justified, so too is All Lives Matter, and it doesn't mean a person who feels that way is automatically insensitive to black people or "frighteningly ignorant", because in fact, EVERY life is precious and NO ONE should lose their life so needlessly. We should all stand together in unity supporting one another rather than make ignorant accusatory statements towards others. And trust me, there are several million Puerto Ricans In New York City alone and I'm sure if you were to ask them, the vast majority would tell you they've been subject to being treated poorly by police and other authoritative figures regularly. And since I grew up there, not only would I be one such person, but I can also speak to how it's no different to how our black friends were treated. We were all inferior, less than human being in their eyes.
As a statement taken in a vacuum, 'All Lives Matter' is clearly true. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of BLM supporters would agree that all other lives matter just as much.

Unfortunately, as a political statement, 'All Lives Matter' is unquestionably being used as a sidestep. For a very large number of people, it (and the far more asinine 'Blue Lives Matter') is a way of visibly placing yourself on the 'good' side while avoiding saying that black lives matter.

I would love to believe in a world where most people who are expressing the sentiment of 'All Lives Matter' are just innocently championing an admirable position. I in no way believe in such a world. In my personal experience, every last person who responds to BLM with ALM is someone who is not supportive of the right of black Americans to be treated equally.

For the rest of your post, I think you have a very good point: the police as an institution are badly broken in ways that go far beyond racism. The statistics, however, are quite clear that while police kill all ethnicities, black Americans receive a disproportionate share of the killings.

As a white middle class American, I have never experienced that side of the police. If I'm pulled over for speeding, I worry that I'm going to get a ticket -- I never worry that they're going to order me out of the vehicle and shoot me. Sure, I act nice and comply with them, but they let me. If they started handcuffing me without any reason and treating me like dirt, I'd be a lot less likely to comply. It's easy to comply when you're treated like you matter, something I'm sure a lot of people trying to put blame on the victims don't understand.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by mikeyg123 »

Anyone been following whats been going on on Instagram today with Hamilton and Marko? Hamilton should probably apologise.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Anyone been following whats been going on on Instagram today with Hamilton and Marko? Hamilton should probably apologise.
Essentially Sports who published the article saying that Marko had said what he didn’t say, have publicly apologised. I wouldn’t be surprised if there had been a lawyer on the phone to them.

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:HOWEVER… It doesn't just happen to black people, it happens to many minorities and even white people, and thus, while the moniker of Black Lives Matter is justified, so too is All Lives Matter, and it doesn't mean a person who feels that way is automatically insensitive to black people or "frighteningly ignorant", because in fact, EVERY life is precious and NO ONE should lose their life so needlessly. We should all stand together in unity supporting one another rather than make ignorant accusatory statements towards others. And trust me, there are several million Puerto Ricans In New York City alone and I'm sure if you were to ask them, the vast majority would tell you they've been subject to being treated poorly by police and other authoritative figures regularly. And since I grew up there, not only would I be one such person, but I can also speak to how it's no different to how our black friends were treated. We were all inferior, less than human being in their eyes.
As a statement taken in a vacuum, 'All Lives Matter' is clearly true. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of BLM supporters would agree that all other lives matter just as much.

Unfortunately, as a political statement, 'All Lives Matter' is unquestionably being used as a sidestep.
The reality is that none of this is as much political as much as it is a global human issue where generations of parents fail to realize the gravity of their ignorant upbringings, during which they were taught hate and disdain for others, simply based on the color of their skin.

That said, a great deal of the justification racist groups use to justify their position comes from stereotypes which unfortunately continue to linger BECAUSE some are indeed based on reality. And please understand that I'm not just speaking about black people here, but I have dear old friend that is black and he is well spoken, doesn't speak with a ghetto twinge or anything and as a result he has never been denied professional opportunities because of the color of his skin.

While visiting him, his sister's kids who live next door came over to look at my car at the time and they were wearing their pants down to their knees almost with their underwear hanging out, their hair a mess and he told them he wasn't too pleased and that they were raised much better, and that when they get passed up later on in life, to look at themselves because it wont be the white man's doing. He was extremely upset about it but they just walked away and didn't really care.

I have 3 kids of my own and I make extra sure they dress, behave and carry themselves in a certain way at all times, because I want them to understand there is a certain way one should comport and carry themselves in society. I also make sure they don't hack the English language and have corrected them from the moment they started speaking and there is no Dis, Dat, Dare, Uhm, Yo, or and lingo that may lead others to think or feel they aren't properly educated… Not in my house, and my grandmother was the same and is how and why I'm a stickler on that front. Words are written a certain way for a reason and each has a specific pronunciation.

In my professional life I have interviewed individuals from varying ethnicities and I've had young men and women show up wearing regular hang out clothes, and I've had them address me in Ghetto speak (I am quite Fluent in all things Wu-Tang thanks to where I grew up, but there is a time and a place and in the professional environment, that doesn't go, and I have denied individuals employment because of that, and that included blacks, whites, hispanics, males and females. Why because they represent the company, our image and whatever you put out there is a direct reflection on everyone in the company.

This is a highly complex issue and no matter how valid and unbiased a person may be, in today's world there are loads of individuals who are constantly salivating while they sift the depths of the interwebs just L@@KING for any little tidbit they can harp and hone in on and make things into something they're not. I champion how the world has come together in the fight for Black Lives matter, but we need to remain civil and protest peacefully and properly in our quest to seek equal treatment for everyone globally. This movement started here in the States but it has become quite apparent it's not a problem that only exists here and in Australia the aborigine are subject to this same kind of poor treatment. In Africa there are tribes of people who are discriminated against by whites as well as other tribes for trivial reasons and genocide has been occurring for decades now. That is all due to lack of education and correcting behavior and thought patterns from generation to generation. That's the only way everyone will look at one another as just human beings. Just as people are taught to believe in a deity, so too can they be taught to accept unconditionally, but it starts with the parents and authoritative figures who help mold children's minds.
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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:Anyone been following whats been going on on Instagram today with Hamilton and Marko? Hamilton should probably apologise.
To be clear, I am not accusing you of this (especially as you have including the word probably) - but I have seen so much outrage on Twitter who are whipping up such a frenzy about Hamilton's comment, it's as if the biggest crime from the whole George Floyd incident is Hamilton believing a widely circulated story that appeared to be sourced.

It came across my radar before Hamilton posted about it as Google Now was showing the story, I suspect that is probably where Hamilton saw it too.

I'm sure that Hamilton will apologise to Marko, if he hasn't already, but those in the public eye know this happens all the time. Just about every race a driver makes a throwaway comment about a competitor and the reporters reword it and take it out of context to try and provoke the other one. The whole F1 circus is used to this as it happens all the time. People managing to turn BLM into 'poor old Marko' (the person they usually treat as the pantomime villain of F1) just goes to show where they really stand on the issue...

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Re: F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

Post by mikeyg123 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Anyone been following whats been going on on Instagram today with Hamilton and Marko? Hamilton should probably apologise.
To be clear, I am not accusing you of this (especially as you have including the word probably) - but I have seen so much outrage on Twitter who are whipping up such a frenzy about Hamilton's comment, it's as if the biggest crime from the whole George Floyd incident is Hamilton believing a widely circulated story that appeared to be sourced.

It came across my radar before Hamilton posted about it as Google Now was showing the story, I suspect that is probably where Hamilton saw it too.

I'm sure that Hamilton will apologise to Marko, if he hasn't already, but those in the public eye know this happens all the time. Just about every race a driver makes a throwaway comment about a competitor and the reporters reword it and take it out of context to try and provoke the other one. The whole F1 circus is used to this as it happens all the time. People managing to turn BLM into 'poor old Marko' (the person they usually treat as the pantomime villain of F1) just goes to show where they really stand on the issue...
It absolutely doesn't have to be a big deal but Hamilton pretty much called Marko a grade A racist and broadcasted that to his 18 million Instagram followers. In this day and age that's a really serious allegation. He needs to correct that mistake because most people who saw it will still think Marko said those words.

He appears, for some reason, to be reluctant to do that. Sometimes if you're going to be a leader you do have to own up to your mistakes.

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