F1, Racism & BlackLivesMatter

[f1madman]

I don't think it's at all controversial to say that F1 has historically been a rich white man's game.

Genuine question here but who from F1 history would you class as a rich white man?

Lance Stroll? Nico Rosbeg? Nelson Piquet? Max Verstappen?

Let's be honest motorsport isn't cheap, if you want your kid to race go karts it's going to be expensive. It's not an easy to access sport, most are richer than average. It's rare to have anyone from a "poorer" background

[f1madman]

Of course there is a much wider pool of white people going into higher education compared to other races, so white people will get more jobs, but if there was truly equal opportunity the demographics in Mercedes workforce (and other companies) would tend towards that of wider society. It isn’t going to be exact but Mercedes’ 97% white figure should be closer to 86% than it is.

I notice you’ve brushed over the fact only 12% of Merc’s workforce are female, despite 51% of the UK population being female.

Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.

A quick search shows that according to the UK WES (Women Engineers Society), 12.5% of all engineers are women in the UK [https://www.wes.org.uk/content/wesstati ... =engineers)&text=46.4%25%20of%20girls%2011%2D14,compared%20to%2070.3%25%20of%20boys&text=42.0%25%20of%20girls%2014%2D16,compared%20to%2066.0%25%20of%20boys&text=25.4%25%20of%20girls%2016%2D18,compared%20to%2051.9%25%20of%20boys], fitting nicely in the above number of engineers in Merc's workforce. The link does not want to behave, you'll have to copy the whole thing

Mercs figures still aren’t close to being reflective of wider society, regardless of whether they’re in line with engineering as an industry. Engineering isn’t the only field that Merc/other F1 teams will recruit from.

Isn’t it a worrying statistic for the engineering industry as a whole that only 12.5% are women? We can’t put it down to a backwards view that women aren’t as interested.

I am not sure why that is a bad thing. If they are genuinely not interested, then what is the problem? Nursing is something like 90% female to male ratio. I have never ever heard anyone of my male friends saying "I want to be a nurse when I grow up". Similarly, none of my female friends expressed the interest to become an engineer that I remember.

So why is it worrying that some industries are dominated by a gender? Do you want to force more men to become nurses or stop recruiting female nurses to make it even? I am lost as to why there SHOULD be equality where there is no issue frankly. To me it shows that males are not interested in becoming nurses, to you it shows inequality and a backwards view. If so, then so be it, I frankly do not see an issue there and we can agree to disagree.

Lol are you like 100years old?
No one complains so there are no problems? Except people here are comparing and you just dismiss it even when you have no idea about the industry. You say women aren't interested in engineering but you don't think why there aren't more women in the industry. It's not a matter of girls don't like it, they may be put off by so many things in society that place glass ceilings on them. It takes a bit of lateral thinking and empathy to discuss a wider problem than; "my friends never told me they wanted to be engineers, nurse, or being gay.... So what's the problem?"

[Siao7]

Well per head of population per race whites actually have the lowest higher education enrollment rate, but pure numbers, yeah, obviously easily still the highest numbers. As for Mercs numbers, it's going to be much less than the 14% you gave when you take into account the courses being studied at the higher education level ( I doubt Merc would have a need for a graduate of Vet science, Music or painting & decorating for example). Then of course, of those who do posses relevant qualifications, they'd have to get someone who's actually interested in joining a F1 team, which once again would further dilute the already tiny pool of available talent. Then, once you do find that person, you'd then need that person to have all the other skills required ( aptitude, communication, problem solving etc) & end up as the best candidate out of what i'd think would be a highly competitive field.

So for Merc to hire a black person for a role, firstly they'd need to consider that black people make up only 3% of the UK population. So out of that 3% of the UK population, they then need to find a person who's gone on to further education, studied a relevant course, posses the other required skills, be the best candidate for the job then actually want to work in F1.

That is a big, big mission no matter how determined you are to meet your equality quota's

So you see once you consider all the permutations, in my opinion, the reason minorities in general & black people in particular do not have a greater representation in the sport once again boils down to simple demographics. Nothing more, nothing less.

How do we fix that? Well 2 options I suppose.

Rid the UK, & western civilization for that matter, of white people, an action which I fear some of the more progressive among us would actually applaud, or, raise the numbers of the minority population through increased birth rates.

As for women in F1, i've addressed this ad nauseam in the " Women in F1" thread. My take is simply most women just have little to no interest in motor racing & therefore are less likely to pursue a vocation in the sport.

A quick search shows that according to the UK WES (Women Engineers Society), 12.5% of all engineers are women in the UK [https://www.wes.org.uk/content/wesstati ... =engineers)&text=46.4%25%20of%20girls%2011%2D14,compared%20to%2070.3%25%20of%20boys&text=42.0%25%20of%20girls%2014%2D16,compared%20to%2066.0%25%20of%20boys&text=25.4%25%20of%20girls%2016%2D18,compared%20to%2051.9%25%20of%20boys], fitting nicely in the above number of engineers in Merc's workforce. The link does not want to behave, you'll have to copy the whole thing

Mercs figures still aren’t close to being reflective of wider society, regardless of whether they’re in line with engineering as an industry. Engineering isn’t the only field that Merc/other F1 teams will recruit from.

Isn’t it a worrying statistic for the engineering industry as a whole that only 12.5% are women? We can’t put it down to a backwards view that women aren’t as interested.

I am not sure why that is a bad thing. If they are genuinely not interested, then what is the problem? Nursing is something like 90% female to male ratio. I have never ever heard anyone of my male friends saying "I want to be a nurse when I grow up". Similarly, none of my female friends expressed the interest to become an engineer that I remember.

So why is it worrying that some industries are dominated by a gender? Do you want to force more men to become nurses or stop recruiting female nurses to make it even? I am lost as to why there SHOULD be equality where there is no issue frankly. To me it shows that males are not interested in becoming nurses, to you it shows inequality and a backwards view. If so, then so be it, I frankly do not see an issue there and we can agree to disagree.

Lol are you like 100years old?
No one complains so there are no problems? Except people here are comparing and you just dismiss it even when you have no idea about the industry. You say women aren't interested in engineering but you don't think why there aren't more women in the industry. It's not a matter of girls don't like it, they may be put off by so many things in society that place glass ceilings on them. It takes a bit of lateral thinking and empathy to discuss a wider problem than; "my friends never told me they wanted to be engineers, nurse, or being gay.... So what's the problem?"

Lol all you like, what are you, 12?

I do not think I dismissed anything, I offered a possible explanation and my personal experience, it is a discussion and you should try it instead of being sarcastic. Maybe try it. You seem to have sussed it out that there is definitely a glass ceiling in the "women in engineering" category, so happy for you. Please educate me since you know these things: can you explain to me why there is a glass ceiling to prevent women becoming - say - plumbers, a typical female profession... I will not be holding my breath.

[f1madman]

11% of the UK engineering workforce is female.
5% of registered engineers and technicians (i.e. CEng, IEng, EngTech) are women.

The UK has the lowest percentage of female engineering professionals in Europe, at 11%. Meanwhile Latvia, Bulgaria and Cyprus lead with nearly 30%.

1% of engineering and technology undergraduates in the UK are female. Whereas in India, over 30% of engineering students are women.

Maybe you should find some Indian and Latvian friends and ask them what they want to do before saying none of your "friends" wanted to come engineers. There's a cultural problem and many of the female engineers and professionals I've personally worked with have tried to actively change the system.

Just because something doesn't affect you can't dismiss it, gramps. You need empathy to understand the struggles of ethnic minorities and women.

[Siao7]

Gramps? Pahahahaha, are you attempting to insult me by saying that I am old? What's next, mom jokes? You have no idea how old I am and frankly I believe that you are better than that. Better to avoid personal attacks/ridicules if there is any chance of conversing.


Plus, COME ON, it would be way funnier to use the "whatever you say boomer" meme, but I guess you didn't think of that, such a high ball missed!


Anyway, as you put it, if no one complains there is no problem, right? Actually no, that is not what I was saying, you'd better read the conversation before commenting. Equally, the notion of "just because you can't see it, it doesn't mean that it is not there" needs a little bit more substance from your side, otherwise I can introduce you to my invisible friend, sitting right beside me, smiling...

More to the point, I knew I shouldn't have held my breath and I am glad I didn't. So, pray tell, who is putting this glass ceiling? Who is this individual - or sinister group/organisation - poised to keep all these young women from fulfilling their dreams of becoming plumbers? I want you to please answer this simple question. While you are at it, let me know how you have an idea about the industry and I don't, as you put it above. Seems like you know my background, funny that.

In all seriousness though, I do not think I claimed to know why there are more women in engineering in India compared to the UK or anything like that. Why do we have to assume that there is a specific limitation here? I am not saying that it is not the case, I am just looking for some justification, evidence. As this is, you know, a conversation.

Take a look at this site:

https://careersmart.org.uk/occupations/ ... own-gender

Gives a bit of an overview of some occupations and the gender breakdown in the UK and as you'll see that there are professions dominated by both sides. It is partly explained by the fact that men and women are literally wired differently:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... han-women/

The reason is way deeper than "society has put a glass ceiling". I won't bore you with the details, you can do some reading yourself, like here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog ... erent-jobs

But I think I know the problem, it is a difference of perspective. You may see that list above and think that men are stopping women from getting in engineering. I see that there are simply different professions that men and women gravitate to.

You can also read this:

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/06/art2full.pdf

(Finally, fun fact for you, there are more female workers than male in the US right now, yeay: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/ ... 26c28a8f8a)

Anyway, this is way of topic from the BLM discussion. As funny as I find your posts, I think we should move on

[Jezza13]

11% of the UK engineering workforce is female.
5% of registered engineers and technicians (i.e. CEng, IEng, EngTech) are women.

The UK has the lowest percentage of female engineering professionals in Europe, at 11%. Meanwhile Latvia, Bulgaria and Cyprus lead with nearly 30%.

1% of engineering and technology undergraduates in the UK are female. Whereas in India, over 30% of engineering students are women.

Maybe you should find some Indian and Latvian friends and ask them what they want to do before saying none of your "friends" wanted to come engineers. There's a cultural problem and many of the female engineers and professionals I've personally worked with have tried to actively change the system.

Just because something doesn't affect you can't dismiss it, gramps. You need empathy to understand the struggles of ethnic minorities and women.

Yeah ok but so what?

You throw percentages around left, right & centre & expect that to prove something without attempting to explain why? You just think because the numbers are uneven then something is terribly wrong.

Well guess what. Anyone can play that game. Look, here you go. Fact, 95% of the prison population in the UK is male. . My God. That's an outrage & an obvious case of gender discrimination at it's worst. I mean it can only be gender discrimination can't it? Just look at the numbers.

See how easy & ignorant it is?

It's the same lame strategy used in the ridiculous & discredited gender wage gap argument. Throw the "70c in the dollar" bait out, sit back, watch the pond go crazy & hope no-one asks why. Unfortunately for all the SJW's out there, as soon as someone did ask why the crusade began to look a little shaky. BTW, wasn't it just a tad strange that the wage gap between males & females was almost identical in every western country?

Interesting study here conducted by Beckett Uni Leeds & Uni of Missouri in 2018.

https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equali ... 6-Feb2018/

For those who can't be bothered reading the article, i'll just reference the first paragraph.

"COUNTRIES WITH GREATER gender equality see a smaller proportion of women taking degrees in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM), a new study has found".

Hmmm

[Jezza13]

I don't think it's at all controversial to say that F1 has historically been a rich white man's game.

Genuine question here but who from F1 history would you class as a rich white man?

Lance Stroll? Nico Rosbeg? Nelson Piquet? Max Verstappen?

Let's be honest motorsport isn't cheap, if you want your kid to race go karts it's going to be expensive. It's not an easy to access sport, most are richer than average. It's rare to have anyone from a "poorer" background

Really? Is that it?

I was half expecting names like Dennis, Williams, Jordan, Tyrrell, Chapman, Ferrari & of course Ecclestone to be mentioned.To be honest I was thinking you might even pull out the big ones of Wolf, Lord Hesketh, Mosely & of course Mateschitz & Lawrence Stroll, but anyway, i'll address the 4 you mentioned.

Prior to F1, what was then net worth of Max Verstappen, Lance Stroll & Nico Rosberg? Not their parents net worth, but their individual net worth?

What about Nelson Piquet? Well, while his father was indeed fairly wealthy (a physician in Brazil), he refused to fund young Nelson's dream of motor racing, instead encouraging him to take up the tennis racquet. Nelson, along with a couple of pals, then pooled their savings & bought a go kart. Nelson changed his last name from Souto Maior to his mothers maiden name of Piquet in the hope his father wouldn't find out he was racing, & the rest is history.

Yes F1 has, historically, had it's fair share of rich white men but most of those men became wealthy because F1, Men like Dennis, Williams, Tyrrell, Chapman, Ecclestone & even Ferrari weren't wealthy prior to entering the sport. Their great business & engineering acumen, drive to succeed, passion for motor racing & probably an ability to talk BS allowed them to amass their fortunes through the sport, not prior to it.

Also, F1 has historically & up until the last 15-20 odd yrs, been a competition almost exclusively staged in western & Latin American countries. Yes they' went to parts of Asia & I think even North Africa at one point, but an overwhelming majority of the drivers, teams & races have been of European or Latin American origins so I don't think it's controversial to suggest that historically F1 was a white mans sport simply because of where it was held & not because of any white supremacy or racist agenda, not that i'm insinuating that's what you were alluding to.

[Siao7]

11% of the UK engineering workforce is female.
5% of registered engineers and technicians (i.e. CEng, IEng, EngTech) are women.

The UK has the lowest percentage of female engineering professionals in Europe, at 11%. Meanwhile Latvia, Bulgaria and Cyprus lead with nearly 30%.

1% of engineering and technology undergraduates in the UK are female. Whereas in India, over 30% of engineering students are women.

Maybe you should find some Indian and Latvian friends and ask them what they want to do before saying none of your "friends" wanted to come engineers. There's a cultural problem and many of the female engineers and professionals I've personally worked with have tried to actively change the system.

Just because something doesn't affect you can't dismiss it, gramps. You need empathy to understand the struggles of ethnic minorities and women.

Yeah ok but so what?

You throw percentages around left, right & centre & expect that to prove something without attempting to explain why? You just think because the numbers are uneven then something is terribly wrong.

Well guess what. Anyone can play that game. Look, here you go. Fact, 95% of the prison population in the UK is male. . My God. That's an outrage & an obvious case of gender discrimination at it's worst. I mean it can only be gender discrimination can't it? Just look at the numbers.

See how easy & ignorant it is?

It's the same lame strategy used in the ridiculous & discredited gender wage gap argument. Throw the "70c in the dollar" bait out, sit back, watch the pond go crazy & hope no-one asks why. Unfortunately for all the SJW's out there, as soon as someone did ask why the crusade began to look a little shaky. BTW, wasn't it just a tad strange that the wage gap between males & females was almost identical in every western country?

Interesting study here conducted by Beckett Uni Leeds & Uni of Missouri in 2018.

https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equali ... 6-Feb2018/

For those who can't be bothered reading the article, i'll just reference the first paragraph.

"COUNTRIES WITH GREATER gender equality see a smaller proportion of women taking degrees in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM), a new study has found".

Hmmm

This is what I also found and tried to report above. It seems women are simply better in some things and men at other. Women are handling conflict better and more rationally, they are more empathetic and have better social skills, so it is no wonder you see most HR personnel being women for example. Men are more attracted to professions with spatial, motor skills and generally more danger than women.

To be clear, the studies that I found show that both sexes can equally do all professions equally well; it is just that they tend to gravitate by choice.

But I agree with you, blanket statements without much substance is not much to go with.

[f1madman]

Whoops i've upset the grampas. If you don't listen to minorities or women going through troubles you will never have the empathy to understand them.

Much like how I've skimped over most of your time consuming responses, which I can assume are probably ignorant.

See prejudism and not being heard and ignored are hurtful isn't it? Glad I can provide some life lessons to the both of you

[Siao7]

Whoops i've upset the grampas. If you don't listen to minorities or women going through troubles you will never have the empathy to understand them.

Much like how I've skimped over most of your time consuming responses, which I can assume are probably ignorant.

See prejudism and not being heard and ignored are hurtful isn't it? Glad I can provide some life lessons to the both of you

I see, continuing with personal insults, no empathy and a lot of prejudice against grampas (see what I did there?) and very little (as in 0) substance.

Great way of conversing, congrats.

[Jezza13]

Whoops i've upset the grampas. If you don't listen to minorities or women going through troubles you will never have the empathy to understand them.

Much like how I've skimped over most of your time consuming responses, which I can assume are probably ignorant.

See prejudism and not being heard and ignored are hurtful isn't it? Glad I can provide some life lessons to the both of you

Yeah well this discussion seems to have gone the way they usually go. What a shock.

While it's disappointing it's gone in this direction, it's not surprising &, to be honest, it's actually a little humorous.

I might throw in a little observation at this point if I may. I'm a tad surprised you're comfortable with your username. f1madMAN?

The term man is a gender term &, as you're no doubt aware, gender is a social construct designed to categorize individuals & perpetuate social behaviors as determined by the white patriarchy in order to continually & systematically oppress women & minority groups.

I would've thought f1madINDIVIDUAL would be more in keeping with your social views but hey, we've all got our shortcomings.

Anyway f1madman. I hope these conversations haven't traumatized you too much & that your keeping your safe space & support network near.

You take care now friend.

[mikeyg123]

Whoops i've upset the grampas. If you don't listen to minorities or women going through troubles you will never have the empathy to understand them.

Much like how I've skimped over most of your time consuming responses, which I can assume are probably ignorant.

See prejudism and not being heard and ignored are hurtful isn't it? Glad I can provide some life lessons to the both of you

Subtext...

I can't put together a cohesive counter argument to your points but I'm too scared to examine my woke dogma to consider if i could be wrong about anything.

I know, if I can just write off the people expressing these views as prejudiced then I don't have to bother trying to counter them. Now just to sign off with some supercilious, condescending passive aggression and I'm all good with my dogmatic opinions intact and virtue intact.

[Banana Man]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

[mikeyg123]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

I've said all along that Lewis' activism will stop at things that cost him personally. See how he is happy to work with Tommy despite them having their clothes made in Uighur Muslim forced labour camps for example.

That being said in this case I do see his point here in that this is boycott/strike of sport in America to deal with an American issue. A British athlete striking in Belgium does not really fit with that.

[Banana Man]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

I've said all along that Lewis' activism will stop at things that cost him personally. See how he is happy to work with Tommy despite them having their clothes made in Uighur Muslim forced labour camps for example.

That being said in this case I do see his point here in that this is boycott/strike of sport in America to deal with an American issue. A British athlete striking in Belgium does not really fit with that.

Seriously? If anybody else had said to him they’re not interested in BLM because it’s, "an American issue,"he’d have flipped his lid. He has been quite ferocious in making this an ongoing issue for everyone in the paddock, so for him to suddenly turn around and say it doesn’t actually matter is somewhat hypocritical.

[Option or Prime]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

I've said all along that Lewis' activism will stop at things that cost him personally. See how he is happy to work with Tommy despite them having their clothes made in Uighur Muslim forced labour camps for example.

That being said in this case I do see his point here in that this is boycott/strike of sport in America to deal with an American issue. A British athlete striking in Belgium does not really fit with that.

Agree with the second point, this is very much an American issue now, DT hasn't even mentioned a black man was shot in the back just the protest following the shooting.
I can see why the police might need force as in this instance the man had a knife. But what is it all about when the shooting is in the back and SEVEN shots are fired.

[JN23]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

I've said all along that Lewis' activism will stop at things that cost him personally. See how he is happy to work with Tommy despite them having their clothes made in Uighur Muslim forced labour camps for example.

That being said in this case I do see his point here in that this is boycott/strike of sport in America to deal with an American issue. A British athlete striking in Belgium does not really fit with that.

Seriously? If anybody else had said to him they’re not interested in BLM because it’s, "an American issue,"he’d have flipped his lid. He has been quite ferocious in making this an ongoing issue for everyone in the paddock, so for him to suddenly turn around and say it doesn’t actually matter is somewhat hypocritical.

He hasn’t said it doesn’t actually matter though has he. He said he doesn’t think him doing anything here (Belgium) will have any effect. He’s probably right as NBA players boycotting en masse won’t necessarily have an impact either, although that has a damn sight more chance of having an impact than one F1 driver boycotting a race.

[Banana Man]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

I've said all along that Lewis' activism will stop at things that cost him personally. See how he is happy to work with Tommy despite them having their clothes made in Uighur Muslim forced labour camps for example.

That being said in this case I do see his point here in that this is boycott/strike of sport in America to deal with an American issue. A British athlete striking in Belgium does not really fit with that.

Seriously? If anybody else had said to him they’re not interested in BLM because it’s, "an American issue,"he’d have flipped his lid. He has been quite ferocious in making this an ongoing issue for everyone in the paddock, so for him to suddenly turn around and say it doesn’t actually matter is somewhat hypocritical.

He hasn’t said it doesn’t actually matter though has he. He said he doesn’t think him doing anything here (Belgium) will have any effect. He’s probably right as NBA players boycotting en masse won’t necessarily have an impact either, although that has a damn sight more chance of having an impact than one F1 driver boycotting a race.

Yes, apologies, that was badly worded on my part. What I meant was that he thinks it won’t matter if he boycotts a race (that’s Lewis Hamilton, championship leader, 6 times WDC and most well known racing driver of all time) whilst simultaneously berating some nobody drivers who’ve never scored a point, in a Williams or Alfa, for not posting a black photo on Instagram because they aren’t doing enough.

[JN23]

Lewis quoted as saying he won’t boycott the Belgian GP because it, "won’t particularly have any effect."

What a bizarre leap in logic from a man who has been somewhat irate about other drivers not posting a plain black picture on Instagram, or kneeling before a race for ten seconds.

I've said all along that Lewis' activism will stop at things that cost him personally. See how he is happy to work with Tommy despite them having their clothes made in Uighur Muslim forced labour camps for example.

That being said in this case I do see his point here in that this is boycott/strike of sport in America to deal with an American issue. A British athlete striking in Belgium does not really fit with that.

Seriously? If anybody else had said to him they’re not interested in BLM because it’s, "an American issue,"he’d have flipped his lid. He has been quite ferocious in making this an ongoing issue for everyone in the paddock, so for him to suddenly turn around and say it doesn’t actually matter is somewhat hypocritical.

He hasn’t said it doesn’t actually matter though has he. He said he doesn’t think him doing anything here (Belgium) will have any effect. He’s probably right as NBA players boycotting en masse won’t necessarily have an impact either, although that has a damn sight more chance of having an impact than one F1 driver boycotting a race.

Yes, apologies, that was badly worded on my part. What I meant was that he thinks it won’t matter if he boycotts a race (that’s Lewis Hamilton, championship leader, 6 times WDC and most well known racing driver of all time) whilst simultaneously berating some nobody drivers who’ve never scored a point, in a Williams or Alfa, for not posting a black photo on Instagram because they aren’t doing enough.

Ah ok, fair enough. I get what you meant now.

[da4an1qu1]

I can take the BLM writing on the helmet, I can take the activism... but the political slogan at a podium ceremony is not activism. It is a stunt. It's boneheaded. And I am not a white male. *edit* not white at all.

Can we please, please, leave the overt politics out of at least the podium ceremonies?

[Rockie]

I can take the BLM writing on the helmet, I can take the activism... but the political slogan at a podium ceremony is not activism. It is a stunt. It's boneheaded. And I am not a white male.

Can we please, please, leave the overt politics out of at least the podium ceremonies?

So appealing to have a woman who was killed on her bed sleeping get justice served to her killers (murderers) is now considered politics?

[mikeyg123]

I can take the BLM writing on the helmet, I can take the activism... but the political slogan at a podium ceremony is not activism. It is a stunt. It's boneheaded. And I am not a white male.

Can we please, please, leave the overt politics out of at least the podium ceremonies?

So appealing to have a woman who was killed on her bed sleeping get justice served to her killers (murderers) is now considered politics?

I don't have an issue with Hamilton wearing the T-shirt but it is definitely a political statement.

[Azi]

I'm glad he uses his power and influence to make a statement.

[da4an1qu1]

I don't know what happened to my other post, but the T-Shirt... *in a podium ceremony* is definitely a political statement.

I am actually warm to Hamilton. I know he absolutely means well. But this is a misguided move by him. Very distasteful.

[Rockie]

I can take the BLM writing on the helmet, I can take the activism... but the political slogan at a podium ceremony is not activism. It is a stunt. It's boneheaded. And I am not a white male.

Can we please, please, leave the overt politics out of at least the podium ceremonies?

So appealing to have a woman who was killed on her bed sleeping get justice served to her killers (murderers) is now considered politics?

I don't have an issue with Hamilton wearing the T-shirt but it is definitely a political statement.

It is not a political statement, how exactly is it?

It's crazy as we have more access to information we don't seem to want to use that information.

[mac_d]

I don't particularly like mixing politics with sport but I don't have any issue with what Hamilton did. I expect he got more eyes on that shirt than he would have done if he wore the shirt tomorrow, or called a press conference tomorrow or posted on whatever social media he uses. I do think that he should be free to stand up for whatever he believes until such times as he is shown to be hurting someone.

My only issue is perhaps semantics depending on your own stance. There is a significant difference between "Justice for...." and "Arrest the cops who shot....". To me, one implies you want the court to decide guilt, one implies you have decided guilt. Even in the most open and shut case, I believe society needs to respect the innocent until proven guilty and the chance to say your piece in court to a jury of your peers.

[Alienturnedhuman]

I don't particularly like mixing politics with sport but I don't have any issue with what Hamilton did. I expect he got more eyes on that shirt than he would have done if he wore the shirt tomorrow, or called a press conference tomorrow or posted on whatever social media he uses. I do think that he should be free to stand up for whatever he believes until such times as he is shown to be hurting someone.

My only issue is perhaps semantics depending on your own stance. There is a significant difference between "Justice for...." and "Arrest the cops who shot....". To me, one implies you want the court to decide guilt, one implies you have decided guilt. Even in the most open and shut case, I believe society needs to respect the innocent until proven guilty and the chance to say your piece in court to a jury of your peers.

Erm, arresting is not sentencing. He isn't saying jail or execute the cops. Arresting is what happens to people who are suspected of a crime - and then they get tried in a court of law. The issue is that they haven't been arrested.

[F1nut]

I can take the BLM writing on the helmet, I can take the activism... but the political slogan at a podium ceremony is not activism. It is a stunt. It's boneheaded. And I am not a white male.

Can we please, please, leave the overt politics out of at least the podium ceremonies?

So appealing to have a woman who was killed on her bed sleeping get justice served to her killers (murderers) is now considered politics?

She was NOT sleeping on her bed - she was standing in the hallway of her apartment behind her current boyfriend (Kenneth Walker). Her ex-boyfriend, (Jamarcus Glover) had been getting UPS package deliveries of drugs there at that apartment, according to police (backed up by the local UPS office providing Taylor's apt. address on the packages delivered multiple times apparently prior to Ms Taylor changing BFs to Kenneth Walker).

This is a confusing mess with many incorrect reports, stories and versions...., it's getting worse as time passes.

IMHO - and given the 100 of photo's online of the carnage of police blind firing into Taylor's apartment, the police broke a "primary" Firearm safety rule - "MAKE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT" - as several rounds ended up in adjacent apartments. Ms Taylor was struck 5 times, not the 8 reported (according to the coroner) and again IMHO should not have followed Mr. Walker out into that hallway, but should have taken cover in the bedroom. Mr Walker more than likely thought the ex-boyfriend (Jamarcus Glover) was the one breaking into the apartment, (and here is another violation of the firearm safety rule listed above - as it appears neither the police nor the boyfriend acted appropriately).

Firearms Safety Rules Matter!

Unfortunately Kentucky’s castle doctrine has explicit protection exceptions for situations in which “a peace officer . . . enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties, and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law.” Neighbors to Ms Taylor's apt. claim that the police did not Knock and Identify themselves and given that Mr Walker has been cleared of charges - it appears the police lied about the fact they did a Knock and Inform, even though they had a No-Knock Warrant.

There is no way at this point to ascertain the real truth - as Taylor's side and the LEO side are both "covering their derrieres"

Though no drugs or illicit money were found in Taylo's apt. after this fiasco, there does appear to be a number of UPS drug deliveries at that address and Jamarcus was observed exiting the apt. on several occasions having received packages there, only to transport them to a known drug house, by undercover officer's reports that appear to pre-date the warrant for Taylor's apartment. Seems prudent to me someone with the police should have interviewed Jamarcus Glover, who was in custody prior to No-Knocking Taylor's apartment - which IMHO again casts doubt on police actions in this case.

[mac_d]

Erm, arresting is not sentencing. He isn't saying jail or execute the cops. Arresting is what happens to people who are suspected of a crime - and then they get tried in a court of law. The issue is that they haven't been arrested.

I do know that. I also think that there is a strong distinction between a lawyer saying "they should be arrested" compared to the colloquial usage. I still think there are always things we aren't told, things we might not fully understand and that the "Justice For..." statement is "neater". I did not expect this reaction to what I said. I am going to stay out of this as I expected this to happen. Really wasn't out for everyone to make me out to be some kind of dick.

[Banana Man]

Lewis doesn’t have any evidence, he’s just going with a bunch of press stories and social media rumours. If anything he’s just doing damage as lawyers will use stunts like this as evidence that the media is prejudicial and may get any case thrown out.

Let’s be honest though, what all this is really about is him. What he can be seen to be doing in the press.

[Asphalt_World]

Lewis doesn’t have any evidence, he’s just going with a bunch of press stories and social media rumours. If anything he’s just doing damage as lawyers will use stunts like this as evidence that the media is prejudicial and may get any case thrown out.

Let’s be honest though, what all this is really about is him. What he can be seen to be doing in the press.

You claim Lewis has no evidence and is just going on about things he's read in the media. You then claim, I guess without any evidence, that he's just doing this for himself.

If you believe the first part of what you wrote, you may want to rethink the second part. Unless you have evidence for the second part, of course.

[Jezza13]

Well you certainly can't say he's wasting an opportunity to champion his cause ( If it is indeed the real Lewis Hamilton)

https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FEhym_9PW ... ame%3Dorig

He needs to be careful criticizing other teams for, as he perceives them, their social shortcomings.

I do wonder how many black Italians of suitable age, qualifications & aptitude are sitting around coffee shops in Rome or Venice cursing the white supremacy tendencies of Italy's favorite team that has so cruelly denied them the opportunity to fulfill their life long dream. My guess would be it'd be closer to 0 than it would 5.

Even if Ferrari wanted to employ a black person, it's not like there'd be a long list of suitable candidates to choose from would there?

[Asphalt_World]

If you want to know why the anti-racism message need more and more coverage, just step over to Twitter and search Lewis Hamilton. It's full of racism. Although the t-shirt worn today is no problem for me, I have no problem with people not wanting this kind of thing mixed into sport and that Lewis should find other times to spread his message. However, the amount of comments I found in a matter of about 60 seconds, that are simply racist, is incredible. These aren't people who don't like the way he's trying to spread his message. These are people who hate him because of his race and skin colour and disagree with any attempts to to ensure people of any race are treated equally.

[Rockie]

I can take the BLM writing on the helmet, I can take the activism... but the political slogan at a podium ceremony is not activism. It is a stunt. It's boneheaded. And I am not a white male.

Can we please, please, leave the overt politics out of at least the podium ceremonies?

So appealing to have a woman who was killed on her bed sleeping get justice served to her killers (murderers) is now considered politics?

She was NOT sleeping on her bed - she was standing in the hallway of her apartment behind her current boyfriend (Kenneth Walker). Her ex-boyfriend, (Jamarcus Glover) had been getting UPS package deliveries of drugs there at that apartment, according to police (backed up by the local UPS office providing Taylor's apt. address on the packages delivered multiple times apparently prior to Ms Taylor changing BFs to Kenneth Walker).

This is a confusing mess with many incorrect reports, stories and versions...., it's getting worse as time passes.

IMHO - and given the 100 of photo's online of the carnage of police blind firing into Taylor's apartment, the police broke a "primary" Firearm safety rule - "MAKE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT" - as several rounds ended up in adjacent apartments. Ms Taylor was struck 5 times, not the 8 reported (according to the coroner) and again IMHO should not have followed Mr. Walker out into that hallway, but should have taken cover in the bedroom. Mr Walker more than likely thought the ex-boyfriend (Jamarcus Glover) was the one breaking into the apartment, (and here is another violation of the firearm safety rule listed above - as it appears neither the police nor the boyfriend acted appropriately).

Firearms Safety Rules Matter!

Unfortunately Kentucky’s castle doctrine has explicit protection exceptions for situations in which “a peace officer . . . enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties, and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law.” Neighbors to Ms Taylor's apt. claim that the police did not Knock and Identify themselves and given that Mr Walker has been cleared of charges - it appears the police lied about the fact they did a Knock and Inform, even though they had a No-Knock Warrant.

There is no way at this point to ascertain the real truth - as Taylor's side and the LEO side are both "covering their derrieres"

Though no drugs or illicit money were found in Taylo's apt. after this fiasco, there does appear to be a number of UPS drug deliveries at that address and Jamarcus was observed exiting the apt. on several occasions having received packages there, only to transport them to a known drug house, by undercover officer's reports that appear to pre-date the warrant for Taylor's apartment. Seems prudent to me someone with the police should have interviewed Jamarcus Glover, who was in custody prior to No-Knocking Taylor's apartment - which IMHO again casts doubt on police actions in this case.

The ex boyfriend was in police custody, they got a no knock warrant and went into that house for no reason.

They knew he had not lived there in a long time, they were hoping to find cash there as when they are recovered like that they go into the police coffers.

So no reason for them to still be walking around free.

[Banana Man]

Lewis doesn’t have any evidence, he’s just going with a bunch of press stories and social media rumours. If anything he’s just doing damage as lawyers will use stunts like this as evidence that the media is prejudicial and may get any case thrown out.

Let’s be honest though, what all this is really about is him. What he can be seen to be doing in the press.

You claim Lewis has no evidence and is just going on about things he's read in the media. You then claim, I guess without any evidence, that he's just doing this for himself.

If you believe the first part of what you wrote, you may want to rethink the second part. Unless you have evidence for the second part, of course.

The evidence is how he is behaving with ever increasing aggression and decreasing rationality. Constantly criticising others for not championing his cause, whilst he ignores hundreds of others which are equally valid.

Everyone wearing ‘End Racism’ T-shirts? Not Lewis, he has to be different and wear one which specifically excludes everyone except black victims of racism. He has to be the one seen hanging out with Justin Beiber, or Neymar, or skiing with Lindsey Vonn, or rapping with Christina Aguillera. Or there was that GP when he said, "yeah, I was just thinking about Muhammad Ali the whole race."

I used to really like him at McLaren, I was going mental when, "is that Glock?!" Happened but these days I just can’t stand him as an individual. He’s a self obsessed a*se-hat who will jump on any bandwagon which promotes Lewis Hamilton the brand.

[Rockie]

If you want to know why the anti-racism message need more and more coverage, just step over to Twitter and search Lewis Hamilton. It's full of racism. Although the t-shirt worn today is no problem for me, I have no problem with people not wanting this kind of thing mixed into sport and that Lewis should find other times to spread his message. However, the amount of comments I found in a matter of about 60 seconds, that are simply racist, is incredible. These aren't people who don't like the way he's trying to spread his message. These are people who hate him because of his race and skin colour and disagree with any attempts to to ensure people of any race are treated equally.

You are just realising this, MLK they all love quoting was killed for fighting for racial equality and was the most hated man in America even with a negative approval rating.

[JN23]

Lewis doesn’t have any evidence, he’s just going with a bunch of press stories and social media rumours. If anything he’s just doing damage as lawyers will use stunts like this as evidence that the media is prejudicial and may get any case thrown out.

Let’s be honest though, what all this is really about is him. What he can be seen to be doing in the press.

You claim Lewis has no evidence and is just going on about things he's read in the media. You then claim, I guess without any evidence, that he's just doing this for himself.

If you believe the first part of what you wrote, you may want to rethink the second part. Unless you have evidence for the second part, of course.

The evidence is how he is behaving with ever increasing aggression and decreasing rationality. Constantly criticising others for not championing his cause, whilst he ignores hundreds of others which are equally valid.

Everyone wearing ‘End Racism’ T-shirts? Not Lewis, he has to be different and wear one which specifically includes everyone except black victims of racism. He has to be the one seen hanging out with Justin Beiber, or Neymar, or skiing with Lindsey Vonn, or rapping with Christina Aguillera. Or there was that GP when he said, "yeah, I was just thinking about Muhammad Ali the whole race."

I used to really like him at McLaren, I was going mental when, "is that Glock?!" Happened but these days I just can’t stand him as an individual. He’s a self obsessed a*se-hat who will jump on any bandwagon which promotes Lewis Hamilton the brand.

What’s up with hanging out with Justin Beiber, Neymar/the others you mention if that’s what LH/those people want to do?

I’m sure you hang out with whoever you want to, like I do, like Lewis Hamilton can.

[Asphalt_World]

If you want to know why the anti-racism message need more and more coverage, just step over to Twitter and search Lewis Hamilton. It's full of racism. Although the t-shirt worn today is no problem for me, I have no problem with people not wanting this kind of thing mixed into sport and that Lewis should find other times to spread his message. However, the amount of comments I found in a matter of about 60 seconds, that are simply racist, is incredible. These aren't people who don't like the way he's trying to spread his message. These are people who hate him because of his race and skin colour and disagree with any attempts to to ensure people of any race are treated equally.

You are just realising this, MLK they all love quoting was killed for fighting for racial equality and was the most hated man in America even with a negative approval rating.

I'm not just realising this, but pointing out how prevalent racism is. It's none stop. I'm sure some people only think it happens in a few places around the world.

[Banana Man]

If you want to know why the anti-racism message need more and more coverage, just step over to Twitter and search Lewis Hamilton. It's full of racism. Although the t-shirt worn today is no problem for me, I have no problem with people not wanting this kind of thing mixed into sport and that Lewis should find other times to spread his message. However, the amount of comments I found in a matter of about 60 seconds, that are simply racist, is incredible. These aren't people who don't like the way he's trying to spread his message. These are people who hate him because of his race and skin colour and disagree with any attempts to to ensure people of any race are treated equally.

You are just realising this, MLK they all love quoting was killed for fighting for racial equality and was the most hated man in America even with a negative approval rating.

I'm not just realising this, but pointing out how prevalent racism is. It's none stop. I'm sure some people only think it happens in a few places around the world.

You’re on Twitter. Literally any of the 7.8bn people on this planet could be posting on there and I hate to break it to you but some of them aren’t very nice. If you think a few T-shirts are going to change that, I fear you are being incredibly naive. I can’t see this being any more effective that wearing a T-shirt saying, "no more murders!" Or "nonces out!"

[Banana Man]

Lewis doesn’t have any evidence, he’s just going with a bunch of press stories and social media rumours. If anything he’s just doing damage as lawyers will use stunts like this as evidence that the media is prejudicial and may get any case thrown out.

Let’s be honest though, what all this is really about is him. What he can be seen to be doing in the press.

You claim Lewis has no evidence and is just going on about things he's read in the media. You then claim, I guess without any evidence, that he's just doing this for himself.

If you believe the first part of what you wrote, you may want to rethink the second part. Unless you have evidence for the second part, of course.

The evidence is how he is behaving with ever increasing aggression and decreasing rationality. Constantly criticising others for not championing his cause, whilst he ignores hundreds of others which are equally valid.

Everyone wearing ‘End Racism’ T-shirts? Not Lewis, he has to be different and wear one which specifically includes everyone except black victims of racism. He has to be the one seen hanging out with Justin Beiber, or Neymar, or skiing with Lindsey Vonn, or rapping with Christina Aguillera. Or there was that GP when he said, "yeah, I was just thinking about Muhammad Ali the whole race."

I used to really like him at McLaren, I was going mental when, "is that Glock?!" Happened but these days I just can’t stand him as an individual. He’s a self obsessed a*se-hat who will jump on any bandwagon which promotes Lewis Hamilton the brand.

What’s up with hanging out with Justin Beiber, Neymar/the others you mention if that’s what LH/those people want to do?

I’m sure you hang out with whoever you want to, like I do, like Lewis Hamilton can.

So you think it’s a coincidence that he so often hangs out with the most famous people he can tag in his Instagram story.