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Asphalt_World wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote:May I just say that as a non American, I don't hold Donald Trump as a typical representation of your countries people.

Looking again at the OP I made some time ago, it's looking worryingly wrong. It would appear that a decent percentage of Americans do think along the same lines as Trump!

Although the numbers are concerning, it's not as scary as it seems.

The fact is that he doesn't pull a majority of the votes, yes he gets more than the others, but not much above 40% most of the time so not the majority of all primary votes cast. How many of Cruz or Rubio voters who vote for those two would switch to Trump if their guy dropped out is unclear but I doubt (hope) it would be enough to push Trump over the 50% mark.

Considering the groups he has denigrated over the last year I don't see how he pull in enough votes to win the general election regardless of who the Democratcs put up against him. Essentially the only people who would vote for him then are the ones who are now. So if he can only get ~40% of one party's primary's voters that would translate into maybe 20% in the general election which is an absolute shellacking by any measure.

The bigger risk for the GOP is that if Trump is their presidential candidate, regardless of whether he wins or not, they stand a chance to lose their majorities in at least the House if not both chambers of congress with 88% of those seats being on the ballot this year as well.

Now both sides are going nuts. Somebody tried to get to Trump at a rally. It's insane how low people on both sides are going. I may hate the idea of a Trump America but I don't want the guy to get hurt, and it's not just because he's a person, but because it will be a HUGE (or as he says it, YYUUUGE) boost to his cause, and because it will cause one of the many psychos supporting Trump to try to assault one of the other candidates. Trump thinks Bernie Sanders is sending people to his rallies to disrupt them, so now Trump is threatening to send his supporters to Bernie rallies, and because Trump is looking into paying the legal fees of a supporter who punched a handcuffed protester in the face at a rally a few days ago, the supporters may feel a bit emboldened to cross the line.

Even if Trump does not win the nomination or Presidency, I wonder what the lasting effects of his campaign will be. All of this feeling he has stirred up will not go away, and there's no getting around the fact that he has tapped into real emotions and ideas that genuinely concern a lot of people. I don't think Trump will just go away. Things have changed, but we won't know in what ways for a long time.

SnakeSVT2003 wrote:......
Even if Trump does not win the nomination or Presidency, I wonder what the lasting effects of his campaign will be.......

Exactly what I've been thinking for a while now. He was just dipping his toes the last time he pretended to compete, getting a feel of the electorate's sensitivities, then dropping out knowing there was no sizable support for his mindset. Contrast that to this time, he jumped in and stoked pent-up frustration, anger and xenophobia from the last two Presidents' terms - Bush Jr. can arguably be held responsible for a lot of anti-US world scenarios today, making existing ones worse if not creating new ones - and Trump suddenly finds his mindset a lot (relatively) more mainstream. Even if he fails this time, he's brought the dark side of American social fabric out in the open and is willingly stoking it further every half-chance he gets. All of this won't go away just because Trump (hopefully) fails in his Presidential bid. The fears, anger and xenophobia (among other things) are real, however misplaced, and Americans are unfortunately going to pay long-term for allowing such a mindset the time, effort and mind-space it needed to flourish in the mainstream.

I don't even want to imagine a world where Trump is POTUS, we're pretty much guaranteed WW-III before his term ends.

Trump is a divisive personality. What America needs is a leader who can bring people together. I don't think there is any way he can win, but as pointed out he is doing lasting damage.

I've been trying to think of a witty acronym for Trump. Something like Totally Reprehensible Untalented .... Can't seem to come up with a good one.

jimmyj wrote:Trump is a divisive personality. What America needs is a leader who can bring people together. I don't think there is any way he can win, but as pointed out he is doing lasting damage.

I've been trying to think of a witty acronym for Trump. Something like Totally Reprehensible Untalented .... Can't seem to come up with a good one.

Misogynistic Prat

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

jimmyj wrote: I've been trying to think of a witty acronym for Trump. Something like Totally Reprehensible Untalented .... Can't seem to come up with a good one.

Misogynistic Prat

You are being too kind.

I think his slogan should more properly be: "Make America Grate Again".

jimmyj wrote:Trump is a divisive personality. What America needs is a leader who can bring people together. I don't think there is any way he can win, but as pointed out he is doing lasting damage.

I've been trying to think of a witty acronym for Trump. Something like Totally Reprehensible Untalented .... Can't seem to come up with a good one.

Tanned RUMP.

Well hopefully yesterday was the beginning of the end for his candidacy.

jimmyj wrote:I've been trying to think of a witty acronym for Trump. Something like Totally Reprehensible Untalented .... Can't seem to come up with a good one.

Trichologically Restricted Untalented Media Parasite ?

painless wrote:

jimmyj wrote:I've been trying to think of a witty acronym for Trump. Something like Totally Reprehensible Untalented .... Can't seem to come up with a good one.

Trichologically Restricted Untalented Media Parasite ?

That's............that's.................BRILLIANT!

To be fair, Trump sound about right without needing to be an acronym!

For us in the US the 2016 election will be the choice between Bad and Worse than Bad. No matter who the candidates end up being.

I am not sure that I agree with you, mmi16. Of course we here that every election year, so it becomes kind of a standard catch phrase. At this point, the only one I am really ready to "write-off" is Trump, with a strong suspicion about Cruz as he represents the Tea Party, and they scare me.

Asphalt_World wrote:May I just say that as a non American, I don't hold Donald Trump as a typical representation of your countries people.

May I just say that as an American, I thank you.

It's a shame that this cycle of US politics had brought out a lot of the nasty and ugly. As someone living just north of the US border, I have many friends from the USA, wonderful and caring people with huge hearts.

The current politics do not represent the people of that wonderful nation.

Thanks, Blinky.... We're pretty fond of our Northern brothers too.

Whilst I hate to put a downer on this thread, the USA likes to paint a picture of just how terrible some of the regimes are in other counties in terms of religious hate, sexism etc. yet it would appear that a number of states are not only happy to instigate rules to allow companies and businesses to refuse to serve LGBT people, the government appears powerless to stop them doing so.

It's staggering.

(I'm not saying it's the only country with this problem though; in the UK we've had court cases over similar things although it's not a law in the same way)

On a much smaller scale our politics seems to have examples of extreme public reactions in the last while. In Alberta a long standing right wing establishment got ousted by the left, in Manitoba the exact opposite happened.

Seems many of us our disenchanted with the status quo and that fact opens up opportunities for "reactions" against established gov't even if it takes us into uncharted waters.

It's going to be very interesting to see where this ends up.

jimmyj wrote:On a much smaller scale our politics seems to have examples of extreme public reactions in the last while. In Alberta a long standing right wing establishment got ousted by the left, in Manitoba the exact opposite happened.

Seems many of us our disenchanted with the status quo and that fact opens up opportunities for "reactions" against established gov't even if it takes us into uncharted waters.

It's going to be very interesting to see where this ends up.

Sure, it happens all the time in Canada. Even here in Ontario we had a very extreme left-leaning government in the form of Bob Rae, to be toppled by the right-leaning Mike Harris. But in an almost perverse comedy, over time the wild swing of the political spectrum needle averages out, good laws are retained, bad laws are dropped, and reason prevails. IMO the multiple political party method is responsible for reason and sanity in politics.

If I was to lay the blame on anyone or anything, it starts with the US media. They are irresponsible and not accountable. In Canada the media are held accountable by various organizations. But in the USA, what may represent themselves as "News" may be nothing but opinions by a radical viewpoint. All media outlets are owned by someone, and all media outlets are fundamentally businesses competing with each other for viewers. So they are willing (and allowed) to put up graphic and misleading headlines for the sole purpose of attracting viewers or clicks.

The US political system is broken. Many aspects of the founding principles of this nation are truly inspirational and great (such as passages in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence) but over time what started out as a great social experiment has been taken over by money and big businesses. The Tea Party, Bernie Sanders, and even Donald Trump are a result of a nation where a great number of people believe the government is out of control, bloated and wasteful, and not accountable to the average voter.

Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

Blinky McSquinty wrote:

jimmyj wrote:On a much smaller scale our politics seems to have examples of extreme public reactions in the last while. In Alberta a long standing right wing establishment got ousted by the left, in Manitoba the exact opposite happened.

Seems many of us our disenchanted with the status quo and that fact opens up opportunities for "reactions" against established gov't even if it takes us into uncharted waters.

It's going to be very interesting to see where this ends up.

Sure, it happens all the time in Canada. Even here in Ontario we had a very extreme left-leaning government in the form of Bob Rae, to be toppled by the right-leaning Mike Harris. But in an almost perverse comedy, over time the wild swing of the political spectrum needle averages out, good laws are retained, bad laws are dropped, and reason prevails. IMO the multiple political party method is responsible for reason and sanity in politics.

If I was to lay the blame on anyone or anything, it starts with the US media. They are irresponsible and not accountable. In Canada the media are held accountable by various organizations. But in the USA, what may represent themselves as "News" may be nothing but opinions by a radical viewpoint. All media outlets are owned by someone, and all media outlets are fundamentally businesses competing with each other for viewers. So they are willing (and allowed) to put up graphic and misleading headlines for the sole purpose of attracting viewers or clicks.

The US political system is broken. Many aspects of the founding principles of this nation are truly inspirational and great (such as passages in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence) but over time what started out as a great social experiment has been taken over by money and big businesses. The Tea Party, Bernie Sanders, and even Donald Trump are a result of a nation where a great number of people believe the government is out of control, bloated and wasteful, and not accountable to the average voter.

Much of that can also describe the UK, and the thing that worries me at the moment is TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership), which is being forced into place by the establishment elite (despite the will of the public) and ths consolidates and gives big money and business even more of a strangle hold on a gloobal basis, it's really bad news.

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

A combination of scare tactics and the bigging up of 'America the great'. It a tactic that appeals to the less than intelligent imo.

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

Trump is presently competing for the nomination for the Republican party. So only those who are registered members of the Republican party have a say in this manner of voting. It definitely does not represent all of the voting citizens of that nation, just registered Republicans. It is an internal process with insane publicity.

Asphalt_World wrote:

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

A combination of scare tactics and the bigging up of 'America the great'. It a tactic that appeals to the less than intelligent imo.

Such a nice way to put it.

In my head there is a queue of obscenities, each more vulgar than the last, ready to describe a Trump supporter at a moment's notice.

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

Lack of choice, really (IMO). People who are qualified or who would do a great job don't want to go through the wringer of an 18-month election process for a thankless job. The whole time, your entire life and every past word and decision are picked apart to find bits that can be criticized. (This turns out to be on-the-job training for what one will face when eventually elected POTUS.) The only people with the fortitude to withstand the process are the idealists, the power-hungry, and the nutjobs. I won't add names to each category, as I suspect my categorization might vary from that of others, but I think the overall description fits.

Asphalt_World wrote:

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

A combination of scare tactics and the bigging up of 'America the great'. It a tactic that appeals to the less than intelligent imo.

So the majority are less than intelligent, that's almost as frightening as the prospect of Trump being the most powerful man on earth.

Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

Trump is presently competing for the nomination for the Republican party. So only those who are registered members of the Republican party have a say in this manner of voting. It definitely does not represent all of the voting citizens of that nation, just registered Republicans. It is an internal process with insane publicity.

I just thought the Republicans wouldn't all be idiots.

DaveStebbins wrote:

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

Lack of choice, really (IMO). People who are qualified or who would do a great job don't want to go through the wringer of an 18-month election process for a thankless job. The whole time, your entire life and every past word and decision are picked apart to find bits that can be criticized. (This turns out to be on-the-job training for what one will face when eventually elected POTUS.) The only people with the fortitude to withstand the process are the idealists, the power-hungry, and the nutjobs. I won't add names to each category, as I suspect my categorization might vary from that of others, but I think the overall description fits.

I quite like Obama and the work of his administration (excluding TTIP) and don't consider him idealist, power-hungry or a nutjob, but maybe that just applies to Republicans?

Covalent wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote:

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

A combination of scare tactics and the bigging up of 'America the great'. It a tactic that appeals to the less than intelligent imo.

So the majority are less than intelligent, that's almost as frightening as the prospect of Trump being the most powerful man on earth.

I couldn't quite work out how to put it! Hopefully people get my point though.

Covalent wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote:

Covalent wrote:Only been reading some headlines but how is Trump winning all those elections or pre-elections or whatever? What's wrong with the voters?

A combination of scare tactics and the bigging up of 'America the great'. It a tactic that appeals to the less than intelligent imo.

So the majority are less than intelligent, that's almost as frightening as the prospect of Trump being the most powerful man on earth.

Not the majority of Americans, nor even the majority of the Republican party. Just a frighteningly large, and vocal, plurality of people who are voting in the Republican primaries.

Trump was able to get a large block of people who are mad at the systems and recognize his name to vote for him in the early primaries where he could pull 30-40% while the other candidates split the rest. Now that the field has been winnowed down he's approaching 50% in most states and exceeding it in others but he and his mouth pieces act like it's a mandate from the populace at large when that is by far from the truth as it's still only the one party. (We'll ignore the arcane and wildly divergent primary rules that vary from state to state for now)

I'd like to think that as a whole we're not so far around the bend to elect this joker should he be the candidate in the general election, but then I thought there was no way George Bush the lesser would get a second term either.

Marine Le Pen / Le Front National looked like they were on course to cause a major political upset in France - until it actually came to the crunch...

Her brand of ultra right wing rhetoric isn't that dissimilar to the garbage spewed out by Trump, and it really did look like the FN was set to stick one over on the establishment, but when it came to the final crunch they were defeated right across the country. She / they were very loud and noisy and appeared to have gained a huge amount of popularity, but in the end million of moderates, who don't even normally bother to vote, turned out to make certain she didn't win a single region.

People who shout the loudest generally get the most attention, particularly when they're shouting about things people want to hear, and it does seems like a lot of 'ordinary' people are venting their frustration by voting Trump, but even if he did somehow become the Republicans' presidential candidate, I still can't seem him ever becoming president - common sense will prevail.

Anyway, most people who vote Trump aren't necessarily stupid, they must know that 99% of what comes out his mouth is garbage, but he is the perfect conduit to express their dissatisfaction with the current system / state of the country, and politicians' seeming inability to do anything about it.

Is anyone else getting the awful feeling Trump will win? I am and I think Michael Moore perfectly sums up why.

If you believe Hillary Clinton is going to beat Trump with facts and smarts and logic, then you obviously missed the past year of 56 primaries and caucuses where 16 Republican candidates tried that and every kitchen sink they could throw at Trump and nothing could stop his juggernaut.

I just don't think it matters that he is clearly out of his depth, that he has no actual concrete policy and will contradict himself and change his views constantly. It's about not voting for a "proper" politician.

I really hope I'm wrong but I'm beginning to feel that, as Moore says, logic won't win.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Is anyone else getting the awful feeling Trump will win? I am and I think Michael Moore perfectly sums up why.

If you believe Hillary Clinton is going to beat Trump with facts and smarts and logic, then you obviously missed the past year of 56 primaries and caucuses where 16 Republican candidates tried that and every kitchen sink they could throw at Trump and nothing could stop his juggernaut.

I just don't think it matters that he is clearly out of his depth, that he has no actual concrete policy and will contradict himself and change his views constantly. It's about not voting for a "proper" politician.

I really hope I'm wrong but I'm begging to feel that, as Moore says, logic won't win.

One would think a rude shock is sometimes the best treatment for delusion. I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but I wouldn't put Donald Trump in change of a lemonade stand at a garage sale, let alone a global superpower.

Given how many Americans genuinely seem to believe his divisive rhetoric, the only way they're going to find out the truth is when they actually get their wish and face its consequences. 'Be careful what you wish for' sounds appropriate but never sounded so ominous. I wouldn't usually care but then there's nothing that happens in the US that doesn't rock the world. Like it or not, when the US takes a dump, the whole world stinks and a Trump Presidency is going to make the stench unbearable.

I still hope Americans see sense and dump Trump, what else can a non-US citizen do?

Any American friends there?

Just how much power does the president have? Surely everything has to pass through other "houses" to become for real?

Regan got a lot of stick, but I far prefer him to be holding the gun than this guy.

moby wrote:Any American friends there?

Just how much power does the president have? Surely everything has to pass through other "houses" to become for real?

Regan got a lot of stick, but I far prefer him to be holding the gun than this guy.

Well I have no idea how true this is but I watch The Late Show clips on YouTube occasionally and they sourced one of Donald Trump's potential running mates that didn't get/take the job (or someone close to him) saying that Donald Trump Jr had offered him the role of "most powerful VP in history", as he would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. When asked what that would leave Trump to do, Trump Jr apparently said "making America great again".

I'll see if I can find the clip, I found it pretty amusing. If that story holds any weight then it seems Trump's plan is to leave all of the actual work to his VP Mike Pence. Now for your own sanity don't look into Mike Pence political views because you will want to jump off a bridge.

Edit: found a clip of it.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

moby wrote:Any American friends there?

Just how much power does the president have? Surely everything has to pass through other "houses" to become for real?

Regan got a lot of stick, but I far prefer him to be holding the gun than this guy.

Well I have no idea how true this is but I watch The Late Show clips on YouTube occasionally and they sourced one of Donald Trump's potential running mates that didn't get/take the job (or someone close to him) saying that Donald Trump Jr had offered him the role of "most powerful VP in history", as he would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. When asked what that would leave Trump to do, Trump Jr apparently said "making America great again".

I'll see if I can find the clip, I found it pretty amusing. If that story holds any weight then it seems Trump's plan is to leave all of the actual work to his VP Mike Pence. Now for your own sanity don't look into Mike Pence political views because you will want to jump off a bridge.

Edit: found a clip of it.
[youtube]clip

That is so right.

We used to have a TV show here (probably bombed off for being too close to the truth) called Yes, Prime minister. It more or less told what we all know to be true in that the Prime minister makes a decision, and it goes throughput secretaries and under secretaries and committee sessions and comes out looking little like it went in.

UK really is run by "The Mandarins". Ministers change, parties change, but the staff who do the work of running the country stay the same.


If you have the time, they are worth watching on youtube

Heads of State hardly have any REAL powers in representative governments, all the actual governance gets done by relatively anonymous power-centers and in a lot of cases, the people whose money drives the whole system (no, not the tax paying gen-pop if one's actually naive enough to believe that ).

Heads of state are usually ceremonial, it's the bureaucracy that counts and the dollars (swap currency of choice here) that drive it.

In terms of creating laws, budgeting, social programs, or essentially anything that involves interior matters that all has to pass through congress. He/she can set a tone for these things and make budget requests and submit legislation for the congress to vote on, but doesn't have as broad authority in internal affairs.

Where Trump can be huge problem is in the area of foreign policy where, although he has to go through congress to get funding for really large spending projects and approval for trade deals, he has a pretty free reign to do things short of declaring war. This is another thing that you can thank Reagan for with his expansion of the War Powers Act back in the 80's.

2nd amendment joke/comment.

I'm struggling for words!