COVID responses of different countries.

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IDFD
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by IDFD »

Pokitren wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:23 am
iano wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:50 am
myattitude wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:16 am

Interesting figures, but scientific data suggests lockdowns themselves have increased the excess deaths:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7952324/

Which is correct and why? Explain your conclusion.
Yes, lockdowns themselves have increased excess deaths.

Also, in similar news, the occurrence of fire when firefighters are in attendance is greater than when there are no firefighters around.
And what I've noticed is that the death rate from the flu is higher than from covid.
This is nonsense that undermines anything else you've said.

oz_karter
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by oz_karter »

Pokitren wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:23 am
And what I've noticed is that the death rate from the flu is higher than from covid.
Well that's not true. The death rate for COVID is magnitudes higher.

Interesting fact: Australia hasn't had any flu deaths in over a year.

That shows the restrictions have worked and that COVID is significantly more transmissible and deadly.

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Pokitren
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Pokitren »

oz_karter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:11 am
Pokitren wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:23 am
And what I've noticed is that the death rate from the flu is higher than from covid.
Well that's not true. The death rate for COVID is magnitudes higher.

Interesting fact: Australia hasn't had any flu deaths in over a year.

That shows the restrictions have worked and that COVID is significantly more transmissible and deadly.
What makes you think that?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7952324BP There's an article on a reliable source. Here the author writes that the death rate from influenza is higher than from covid. And he also writes about the uselessness of restrictions to build up collective immunity.
Last edited by Pokitren on Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

oz_karter
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by oz_karter »

Pokitren wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:31 pm
oz_karter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:11 am
Pokitren wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:23 am
And what I've noticed is that the death rate from the flu is higher than from covid.
Well that's not true. The death rate for COVID is magnitudes higher.

Interesting fact: Australia hasn't had any flu deaths in over a year.

That shows the restrictions have worked and that COVID is significantly more transmissible and deadly.
What makes you think that?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7952324/ There's an article on a reliable source. Here the author writes that the death rate from influenza is higher than from covid. And he also writes about the uselessness of restrictions to build up collective immunity.
As a scientist, reading that article made my brain hurt. It's based mostly on opinions and cherrypicks countries for its conclusions.

Many of these opinions have been floated in Australia, but soundly proven wrong. You can have a functioning economy AND low deaths. The long term effects of lockdowns are yet to be seen, but interestingly Australia has had lower suicides in 2020 and 2021 than in preceding years.

The author does not seem to take into account long term health effects of COVID (surviving it does not mean you aren't affected).

The article does not say anywhere that Influenza has a higher death rate. This is completely untrue.

The article reeks of someone who has a focus on economics and little care about the deaths of humans in a population.

I am very thankful that I live in a state and country which put health first. Our lives have not suffered. In QLD we've had only 7 COVID deaths and all of those were from overseas transmission (not local). We've had a few sporadic short lockdowns (3-7 days), but otherwise our lives have been generally normal. We've also been able to stop wearing face masks.

The one restriction that remains is state border closures, but those are lifting as vaccination rates increase. It is very much looking like a normal Australia heading into 2022 and we have lost very few people.

myattitude
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by myattitude »

oz_karter wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:33 am
Pokitren wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:31 pm
oz_karter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:11 am
Pokitren wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:23 am
And what I've noticed is that the death rate from the flu is higher than from covid.
Well that's not true. The death rate for COVID is magnitudes higher.

Interesting fact: Australia hasn't had any flu deaths in over a year.

That shows the restrictions have worked and that COVID is significantly more transmissible and deadly.
What makes you think that?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7952324/ There's an article on a reliable source. Here the author writes that the death rate from influenza is higher than from covid. And he also writes about the uselessness of restrictions to build up collective immunity.
As a scientist, reading that article made my brain hurt. It's based mostly on opinions and cherrypicks countries for its conclusions.

Many of these opinions have been floated in Australia, but soundly proven wrong. You can have a functioning economy AND low deaths. The long term effects of lockdowns are yet to be seen, but interestingly Australia has had lower suicides in 2020 and 2021 than in preceding years.

The author does not seem to take into account long term health effects of COVID (surviving it does not mean you aren't affected).

The article does not say anywhere that Influenza has a higher death rate. This is completely untrue.

The article reeks of someone who has a focus on economics and little care about the deaths of humans in a population.

I am very thankful that I live in a state and country which put health first. Our lives have not suffered. In QLD we've had only 7 COVID deaths and all of those were from overseas transmission (not local). We've had a few sporadic short lockdowns (3-7 days), but otherwise our lives have been generally normal. We've also been able to stop wearing face masks.

The one restriction that remains is state border closures, but those are lifting as vaccination rates increase. It is very much looking like a normal Australia heading into 2022 and we have lost very few people.
That's the short definition of a science paper, and indeed the short definition of the pro-covid publications too which is why it has been so easy to produce countering papers throughout this thread. An objective observer would find it all very inconclusive which is not the case with things like polio. Instead, the tribalism has made a mess of it all. I've read far to many of these papers as an agnostic and the subject is completely inconclusive. At this point in time, we don't actually have firm evidence of how many people this has affected and if the "it" is the actual virus in question - that is outrageous. The tribalists would vehemently disagree with that but ask them to produce proof and it's all second hand sources by either the institutions making the claims (or their associates like the ONS) or chancing scientists on the other side trying to make a name for themselves. The mod on page 1 said 4m have died - prove it. They can't. I can, however, prove that organisations like Ofcom in the UK are telling media outlets how to present the narrative (https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-o ... oronavirus). It's not a good look. So even if the virus is as lethal as the proponents say, the crime is that the propagandising cried wolf so much that it has put up people's BS meters and lost the trust of the masses. All that universal trust trust and goodwill in March 2020 has been majorly lost now, and that's the fault of the propaganda.

Australia hasn't disproven a single thing. Ask anyone from 4 years ago and they will say it's obvious that locking down a country would reduce a virus. We still have no way of knowing who does and doesn't have what virus.

Pokitren was referring to about halfway down the page that says flu is a bigger killer for under 50s than Covid (cherry picking again). This "fact" is actually accepted even by pro-narrative publishers - Covid affects the elderly and not nearly as badly the young who die more from the flu.

For ages 70+, Covid is 6.5 times more deadly than the flu
For ages 50-69, Covid is 8 times more deadly than the flu
For ages 20-49, the Flu is 3 times more deadly than Covid
For ages 0-19, the Flu is 3 times more deadly than Covid

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... arios.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... age-2020-6

Disclaimer: the above figures are from two official bodies and are hotly disputed by independent scientists who are highly qualified to dispute them.


Which therefore raises further questions about the massive vax push for the young when even the official data is all over the place, and another example of why trust and goodwill has been lost recently.

I said earlier in this thread that the only use all these second hand statistics serve for you and I as laymen is to ask questions about the claims - they are not evidence in of themselves. The longer this goes on and the longer people go on mass demos without actually dying in droves, the more it seems not as serious as we thought it could be in March 2020. I'm still agnostic to the fact that it's still a dangerous virus and that the governments just made a pig's ear of talking about it to us, but we can rule out certain things using primary observation:

- There are no hoards of dead homeless people scattered on the streets from a deadly airborne pandemic
- Masks block your breath about this much: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/351210470950465833/
- Or this much: https://media1.tenor.com/images/f21d79e ... d=12239249
- Or this much: https://eu-browse.startpage.com/av/anon ... 03de4d15d
- Objecting scientists have not been invited to contribute to government publications, even though they are eminently qualified to disagree with official claims (link earlier in this thread).
- By the blurry and disputed official figures, Covid is still not as big a killer other diseases (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... %3DApi&f=1) and quite small depending on the country (https://www.stat.fi/til/ksyyt/2020/ksyy ... en_001.gif) and yet the other causes of death are not a political argument warranting mandatory actions to lower them.
- Self-named fact check organisations are being outed as merely opinion pieces by journalists, as if that wasn't already obvious (1. https://nypost.com/2021/12/14/facebook- ... y-opinion/) (2. https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/ ... historical)

Again, this still could mean the virus is quite dangerous, but we have our own empirical information to go on nowadays that allows at least us to relax about it compared to March 2020.

All in all, the human condition for tribalism has made a right cockup of what should have been a rational debate, and the debate is now a caricature of itself, a global Brexit 2.0.

oz_karter
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by oz_karter »

myattitude wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:26 am
Again, this still could mean the virus is quite dangerous, but we have our own empirical information to go on nowadays that allows at least us to relax about it compared to March 2020.

All in all, the human condition for tribalism has made a right cockup of what should have been a rational debate, and the debate is now a caricature of itself, a global Brexit 2.0.
I would have thought it was beyond doubt that the virus has been proven dangerous, especially when you consider what the death rate was at the start of the pandemic and before we had widespread vaccines.

Without all the social and travel restrictions, masks, vaccines and other controls, COVID19 would easily have been the biggest cause of death in the last two years by a long long way.

I really struggle to understand how people still pull out the "but not that many people have died" argument when it's only been due to the restrictions, not anything to do with the virus not being deadly. We know it is.

If you form any view you will find support for it somewhere on the internet. That doesn't mean it is credible or true.

myattitude
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by myattitude »

oz_karter wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:37 am
myattitude wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:26 am
Again, this still could mean the virus is quite dangerous, but we have our own empirical information to go on nowadays that allows at least us to relax about it compared to March 2020.

All in all, the human condition for tribalism has made a right cockup of what should have been a rational debate, and the debate is now a caricature of itself, a global Brexit 2.0.
I would have thought it was beyond doubt that the virus has been proven dangerous, especially when you consider what the death rate was at the start of the pandemic and before we had widespread vaccines.

Without all the social and travel restrictions, masks, vaccines and other controls, COVID19 would easily have been the biggest cause of death in the last two years by a long long way.

I really struggle to understand how people still pull out the "but not that many people have died" argument when it's only been due to the restrictions, not anything to do with the virus not being deadly. We know it is.

If you form any view you will find support for it somewhere on the internet. That doesn't mean it is credible or true.
To your last point first, that definitely, definitely applies to government and media releases as well.

Objectively, have we yet to see any first hand proof at all? - literally everything we've been given has been 2nd hand information provided by the claimants or from bodies sanctioned by the claimants, while those who are highly qualified to dispute the claims were either censored, gaslighted or ostracised by the authorities and media. When I say highly qualified to dispute them, I mean people like PhD virologists, an ex-Pfizer scientist or a founder of mRNA technology. The ostracisation is all the way from the BBC through to Wikipedia. The censorship is from governments through to Twitter. Very dodgy behaviour.

But things are slowly changing. I was surprised this morning to see a mainstream article talking about the psychological propaganda the population was subjected to. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... our-covid/ . Such talk was usually the domain of the David Ikes before now but not any more. Something has definitely been turning in the past few months compared to 2020 and I expect more of this type of thing to come out going forward.

I'm happy to acknowledge a novel virus is out there, but I do so knowing I have no way of proving that. Squiggly lines can be drawn by anyone and the figures behind those squiggly lines can be contextualised by anyone (see lies, damned lies and statistics). What we have to go on is what we see empirically - We don't see rotting bodies on the streets of London from a deadly airborne pandemic, we do empirically see (above) masks don't stop a damn thing, most people who announce they've got Covid seem to get over it to tell us all about it. Media selected unicorns of healthy people dying is a technique that can be used for anything.

Lockdowns would reduce any virus, but how can you verify which viruses are which or what the figures are? The answer is we can't. We have to go on the figures of the institutions making the claims.

If for argument's sake the figures are true (and they are disputed, inconsistent and contradictory) that Covid is 8 times deadlier for the elderly than flu, what is 8x of a very tiny percentage? The answer is a still quite small number. The proof IS first hand though, that freedoms have been taken from us over this virus who's seriousness is disputed by people who are eminently qualified to dispute them.

More people might trust the narrative a bit more if they weren't full on Soviet style propaganda about it, which raises the question of why the Soviet style propaganda. Are we supposed to just enjoy our tracking passes now?

myattitude
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by myattitude »

This statement also requires more scrutiny:
oz_karter wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:37 am
Without all the social and travel restrictions, masks, vaccines and other controls, COVID19 would easily have been the biggest cause of death in the last two years by a long long way.
Can you actually prove that without citing figures provided by the claimants or their associates? It's a massive claim to make and it requires massively strong first hand evidence.

myattitude
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by myattitude »

It's new year and I'm back to work on the 2nd so I won't be spending my time procrastinating on this subject again, it's quite terrible that I spent part of my Christmas holidays on this. Happy new year and I hope we come out the other end of this in a good place.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

myattitude wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:14 pm
it's quite terrible that I spent part of my Christmas holidays on this.
No one forced you to.

myattitude
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by myattitude »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:27 am
myattitude wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:14 pm
it's quite terrible that I spent part of my Christmas holidays on this.
No one forced you to.
Meow. Happy new year to you too.

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Jezza13
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Jezza13 »

Interesting YT vid regarding the spread of the Omicron variant. This guy, Dr John Campbell, does a good job of breaking down medical research papers into the virus into straight forward, non bias reports.

Basically he's citing research from South African Universities & labs into the spread of Omicron, with promising findings.

Great Quotes of the 20th Century

"You think I know f**k all.... I know f**k nothing" - Anonymous Maltese construction worker's response to being told he doesn't know how to do his job.

Siao7
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Siao7 »

Great, Covid is now Soviet propaganda... I think we should leave it there.

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Jezza13
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Jezza13 »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
Great, Covid is now Soviet propaganda... I think we should leave it there.
Nah I don't think we should.

Care to expand on that comment so those of us who still have questions can get an idea why we should be disregarding this guy or the findings he presents?

If you've got Spotify, 2 podcasts I'd recommend.
  • Joe Rogan podcast interview with Dr Robert Malone, renowned virologist & immunologist & one of the people credited with inventing mrna technology
  • Lex Friedman podcast interview with Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla
Great Quotes of the 20th Century

"You think I know f**k all.... I know f**k nothing" - Anonymous Maltese construction worker's response to being told he doesn't know how to do his job.

Siao7
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:50 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
Great, Covid is now Soviet propaganda... I think we should leave it there.
Nah I don't think we should.

Care to expand on that comment so those of us who still have questions can get an idea why we should be disregarding this guy or the findings he presents?

If you've got Spotify, 2 podcasts I'd recommend.
  • Joe Rogan podcast interview with Dr Robert Malone, renowned virologist & immunologist & one of the people credited with inventing mrna technology
  • Lex Friedman podcast interview with Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla
Me? Expand? On someone calling the Covid measures Soviet propaganda?

Nah, pass, not interested. I'm not an expert and definitely not interested in trying to convince people that Gates doesn't want to control you, nor that all the governments collectively decided one that they will create a pandemic to try and vaccinate you and control you and make you lose your freedom while shattering their economies in the meantime, blah blah.

I'll trust the experts, the docs that say you should vaccinate and that's that.

I have no issue with people not wanting to vaccinate (though I find it a tad selfish, but hey ho). But similarly to vegans, I don't see their need to tell people about it all the time, educate yourself sheeple.

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Jezza13
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Jezza13 »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:01 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:50 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
Great, Covid is now Soviet propaganda... I think we should leave it there.
Nah I don't think we should.

Care to expand on that comment so those of us who still have questions can get an idea why we should be disregarding this guy or the findings he presents?

If you've got Spotify, 2 podcasts I'd recommend.
  • Joe Rogan podcast interview with Dr Robert Malone, renowned virologist & immunologist & one of the people credited with inventing mrna technology
  • Lex Friedman podcast interview with Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla
Me? Expand? On someone calling the Covid measures Soviet propaganda?

Nah, pass, not interested. I'm not an expert and definitely not interested in trying to convince people that Gates doesn't want to control you, nor that all the governments collectively decided one that they will create a pandemic to try and vaccinate you and control you and make you lose your freedom while shattering their economies in the meantime, blah blah.

I'll trust the experts, the docs that say you should vaccinate and that's that.

I have no issue with people not wanting to vaccinate (though I find it a tad selfish, but hey ho). But similarly to vegans, I don't see their need to tell people about it all the time, educate yourself sheeple.
Oh sorry Siao7, I thought you responded to the vid I posted. I didn't see myattitudes comment.

I sat through that bloody thing again waiting for a Soviet propaganda comment & wondering what the hell you were going on about,

My apologies for my slightly smartar$e response,
Great Quotes of the 20th Century

"You think I know f**k all.... I know f**k nothing" - Anonymous Maltese construction worker's response to being told he doesn't know how to do his job.

Siao7
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Re: COVID responses of different countries.

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:35 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:01 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:50 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:54 am
Great, Covid is now Soviet propaganda... I think we should leave it there.
Nah I don't think we should.

Care to expand on that comment so those of us who still have questions can get an idea why we should be disregarding this guy or the findings he presents?

If you've got Spotify, 2 podcasts I'd recommend.
  • Joe Rogan podcast interview with Dr Robert Malone, renowned virologist & immunologist & one of the people credited with inventing mrna technology
  • Lex Friedman podcast interview with Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla
Me? Expand? On someone calling the Covid measures Soviet propaganda?

Nah, pass, not interested. I'm not an expert and definitely not interested in trying to convince people that Gates doesn't want to control you, nor that all the governments collectively decided one that they will create a pandemic to try and vaccinate you and control you and make you lose your freedom while shattering their economies in the meantime, blah blah.

I'll trust the experts, the docs that say you should vaccinate and that's that.

I have no issue with people not wanting to vaccinate (though I find it a tad selfish, but hey ho). But similarly to vegans, I don't see their need to tell people about it all the time, educate yourself sheeple.
Oh sorry Siao7, I thought you responded to the vid I posted. I didn't see myattitudes comment.

I sat through that bloody thing again waiting for a Soviet propaganda comment & wondering what the hell you were going on about,

My apologies for my slightly smartar$e response,
Ah, yeah, I see, apologies from me too as I should have quoted what I replied to.

I also realise that I may have been slightly crap/cheeky in my response! But no harm no foul.

I was reading about that Dr Malone after you mentioned him and he is an interesting figure. Seems to be a disgruntled scientist that believes that he invented the mRNA jabs (he of course worked on them and did experiments). He keeps saying that "history forgot him" and his wife wrote an angry essay on that. But he's been debunked by a lot of his peers I believe, he is banned from the media for spreading misinformation on the vaccines (he did get vaccinated himself though, which is bizarre as he is an anti vaxer).

It seems that his biggest grudge is that the big pharma is out for the money. Which is true, they pour billions in research so they make billions as well. These things are not free. But it is a catchy thing with the conspiracy theorists, so he is getting a lot of attention. It seems to me that he is riding his newfound fame from his controversial statements somewhat.

But hey, he believes that Gates has put 0 microchips in them, so there's that!

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