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Following this comment in another thread from f1yer:

"of course vettel is more valuable than newey... its just fanboys ofother drivers who think otherwise."

Who in your opinion is more valuable, Vettel or Newey?

I know that if I had the choice to sign one or the other, it would definitely be Newey.

Surely not again? We've had this before.

Lol I'm a Vettel fan and I still would pick Newey

Vettel ...

Remember - Newey was with the team for 2-3 years and they didnt win a race until Vettel came along.
Also if Newey was that much more valuable , he wouldnt be paid half of Vettel. based on a speculative post that he gets around 10 mill which I very much doubt.

Also, we have seen that Newey sometimes designs cars which dont suit the drivers very well - early 2012.
But Vettel still managed to adapt and bring home the title.

Even this year, RB9 isnt the faster than Merc in Qualy which is what Newey focusses on.

In fact its a disrespect to other team designers that they dont get that much attention just because their drivers OR strategy team screws up.

With this iteration of regulations Newey has been more valuable than any driver on the grid, not just Vettel.

He hasn't been king with every iteration of the regulations though.

Thinking about it, the poll could at least have offered something extra.
Who's the driver if you pick Newey, who's the CTO if you pick Vettel? Where does the one that you don't pick end up?

What if Byrne next year proves to be able to create a better car than Newey (like he did during a period of intense Ferrari domination a decade ago)?

What if the poll said "Byrne and Vettel" vs "Newey and Alonso" after a year of RBR being nowhere and Alonso taking the title with a dominant Ferrari designed by Byrne?

This is daft. If choosing Newey means getting Karthikeyan as driver, and Vettel getting a seat in the Ferrari or Merc, I'm sure as hell choosing Vettel. If choosing Vettel means seeing Newey at Ferrari with Alonso, I might choose Newey. Then again if choosing Vettel means Newey would be gone or at Marussia with the Marussia budget, I would choose Vettel once again.

Sorry. Threads like this are gratuitous.

on the basis that a great driver can't do anything with a mediocre car, yet a mediocre driver can still get a positive result with a great car, I'd have to say Newey. Even the drivers say performance is 80% car (I think it was Lewis or Alonso who said that). Top teams - with top designers -have been known to gamble on less experienced or unproven drivers, but it's rare for a top driver to willingly go to a lower team, and on the rare occasions they do it's invariably the slippery slope to obscurity.

But it's still a symbiotic relationship. To get the best out of a great car you still need a good driver. As Lewis said recently: that's why they're paid the big bucks

Both. How many cars have won championships without a great driver? How many drivers have won championships without a great car?

Looks like f1yer is on his own, bless!

mds wrote:Thinking about it, the poll could at least have offered something extra.
Who's the driver if you pick Newey, who's the CTO if you pick Vettel? Where does the one that you don't pick end up?

What if Byrne next year proves to be able to create a better car than Newey (like he did during a period of intense Ferrari domination a decade ago)?

What if the poll said "Byrne and Vettel" vs "Newey and Alonso" after a year of RBR being nowhere and Alonso taking the title with a dominant Ferrari designed by Byrne?

This is daft. If choosing Newey means getting Karthikeyan as driver, and Vettel getting a seat in the Ferrari or Merc, I'm sure as hell choosing Vettel. If choosing Vettel means seeing Newey at Ferrari with Alonso, I might choose Newey. Then again if choosing Vettel means Newey would be gone or at Marussia with the Marussia budget, I would choose Vettel once again.

Sorry. Threads like this are gratuitous.

You can blame f1yer's statement for the poll.

And Byrne is only working in a consulting role.

He contributed to the F2012 to.

For all we know, it's his design team that is actually doing the real work. I know he has a decent track record of wherever he goes a very strong car springs up within a short time, but he is still just one man.

If you eliminated Vettel from existence, and everyone who finished behind him moved up a space, would Webber have won 3 WDC? Webber has never come second in the WDC (and I'm too lazy to recalculate the points) so how can we really say it is Newey making a dominant car that Vettel just drives rather than Newey and co. making a strong car that Vettel is able to dominate in because he is that good?

Note - I'm not a Vettel fan, I'd rather see other guys winning but I do think he is a VERY fast driver.


I'd probably come down on keeping Newey but I am not sure. I think I'd pay Newey even if I wanted rid of him just to keep him out of the hands of a rival.

Gun to my head, I'd always pick a top designer over a top driver. Look at Adrian Newey; he spent six years at Williams, eight years at McLaren, and seven years (so far) at Red Bull. It feels like the successful ones tend to stick around longer at one team than successful drivers. Of course, with Newey being towards the end of his F1 career and Seb being closer to the start of his (I assume) I might re-consider that if I knew Adrian was retiring in a couple of years.

Saying that, plenty of drivers have had Newey cars and not won the WDC. And plenty of good/great drivers have not won the WDC in any given season because their car wasn't good enough. Both (Newey and Vettel) are going to make any team better.

Horner seems to think Newey:

Indeed, Christian Horner, Red Bull's Red Bull Racing team principal proclaimed that they would rather have Newey than Michael Schumacher on their strength. "It was a massive recruitment for us," he said. "Given the choice of Adrian Newey or Michael Schumacher, I'd go for Adrian every time. It's of that kind of magnitude."

This was from an article written in 2011. Although it compares to Schumacher, not Vettel, it shows the store CH sets in having someone like Newey aboard

mac_d wrote:For all we know, it's his design team that is actually doing the real work. I know he has a decent track record of wherever he goes a very strong car springs up within a short time, but he is still just one man.

If you eliminated Vettel from existence, and everyone who finished behind him moved up a space, would Webber have won 3 WDC? Webber has never come second in the WDC (and I'm too lazy to recalculate the points) so how can we really say it is Newey making a dominant car that Vettel just drives rather than Newey and co. making a strong car that Vettel is able to dominate in because he is that good?

Note - I'm not a Vettel fan, I'd rather see other guys winning but I do think he is a VERY fast driver.


I'd probably come down on keeping Newey but I am not sure. I think I'd pay Newey even if I wanted rid of him just to keep him out of the hands of a rival.

Without Vettel, webber would have been champion in 2010.

TheThirdTenor wrote: You can blame f1yer's statement for the poll.

And Byrne is only working in a consulting role.

He contributed to the F2012 to.

Yeah, and Newey "contributed" to the RB4 too. It was not a great car.

Like I said, you could have made the poll far more valuable.

mds wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote: You can blame f1yer's statement for the poll.

And Byrne is only working in a consulting role.

He contributed to the F2012 to.

Yeah, and Newey "contributed" to the RB4 too. It was not a great car.

Like I said, you could have made the poll far more valuable.

You're free to make your own poll.

You'd have Newey before any driver in the current grid.

TheThirdTenor wrote:Looks like f1yer is on his own, bless!

Bless you too ..
Its lovely to see you scamper off to hurriedly open a stupid poll every time you hear something positive about Vettel.

F1yer wrote:Vettel ...

Remember - Newey was with the team for 2-3 years and they didnt win a race until Vettel came along.

Actually Vettel has only driven one car NOT designed by Newey, only at his debut with BMW at USA. He qualified 7th and in race was 8th, wich was very good for a debut, but not asthonising (Heidfield and Kubicar were 5th and 6th in WDC, with 2 podiums)

His first win was Monza 08. Adrian Newey start desgining RB cars in 2007, and 2008 STR car was a copy of RB, so even the victory at Monza 08 was due to Newey design (and Ferrari engine btw)

Anything wich cannot be discussed is RB perfomance made a huge step forward in 2009, Webber joined RB in 2007 so his results are clarifying...

12th (2007)
11th (2008)
4th (2009)
3th (2010)....

That was the year Vettel joined RB, but also the year of the huge regulations change (slicks, banned most aerodynamical devices...)

Designing a winning car is not a matter of one year as you try to translate... but if there are new regulations its doable, and that´s exactly what happened with Brawn (Ross Brawn) and RB (Newey). They both improved quite a lot in 2009 , only problem for Newey car was called Ross Brawn, the only one who managed to beat him, not by far btw (Button/Brawn 95 points vs Vettel/RB 84, Brawn 172 vs RB 153.5). That was also the same year Vettel joined RB, but if you take a look to Brawn and RB perfomance that year you can easily see how Vettel was not the key factor, in 2009 Brawn and Newey made the difference. Webber results posted above prove this to be true. Then Brawn sold the team to Mercedes (perfect business) and from that point Newey car stood as the reference

So if you say Newey car didn´t win until Vettel came along, it´s the same as if you say Brawn car didn´t win until Button came along

It´s Newey, Vettel is very good, but not the key factor

Andres125sx wrote: His first win was Monza 08. Adrian Newey start desgining RB cars in 2007, and 2008 STR car was a copy of RB

The STR3 was a copy of the RB4 which was a midfield car. Newey's genius wasn't working that great yet for STR/RBR.

So if you say Newey car didn´t win until Vettel came along, it´s the same as if you say Brawn car didn´t win until Button came along

It's true though. Barichello couldn't come second in the WDC, just like Webber never got in second in the WDC (and in 2009 didn't come in third behind Vettel).

The car is more important because with a bad car nobody will win - that goes for any driver. But the driver still is a differentiating factor.

mds wrote:Barichello couldn't come second in the WDC

Uh... ya he could

Jenson's Understeer wrote:Gun to my head, I'd always pick a top designer over a top driver. Look at Adrian Newey; he spent six years at Williams, eight years at McLaren, and seven years (so far) at Red Bull. It feels like the successful ones tend to stick around longer at one team than successful drivers. Of course, with Newey being towards the end of his F1 career and Seb being closer to the start of his (I assume) I might re-consider that if I knew Adrian was retiring in a couple of years.

Saying that, plenty of drivers have had Newey cars and not won the WDC. And plenty of good/great drivers have not won the WDC in any given season because their car wasn't good enough. Both (Newey and Vettel) are going to make any team better.

This

mcdo wrote:

mds wrote:Barichello couldn't come second in the WDC

Uh... ya he could

Re-read the part I quoted please... It was about Brawn, 2009, and Barichello didn't come in second.

mds wrote:Thinking about it, the poll could at least have offered something extra.
Who's the driver if you pick Newey, who's the CTO if you pick Vettel? Where does the one that you don't pick end up?

What if Byrne next year proves to be able to create a better car than Newey (like he did during a period of intense Ferrari domination a decade ago)?

What if the poll said "Byrne and Vettel" vs "Newey and Alonso" after a year of RBR being nowhere and Alonso taking the title with a dominant Ferrari designed by Byrne?

This is daft. If choosing Newey means getting Karthikeyan as driver, and Vettel getting a seat in the Ferrari or Merc, I'm sure as hell choosing Vettel. If choosing Vettel means seeing Newey at Ferrari with Alonso, I might choose Newey. Then again if choosing Vettel means Newey would be gone or at Marussia with the Marussia budget, I would choose Vettel once again.

Sorry. Threads like this are gratuitous.

This is probably the only answer on here I agree with. I didn't vote. This debate is asinine.

mds wrote:

Andres125sx wrote: His first win was Monza 08. Adrian Newey start desgining RB cars in 2007, and 2008 STR car was a copy of RB

The STR3 was a copy of the RB4 which was a midfield car. Newey's genius wasn't working that great yet for STR/RBR.

It was at Monza, look at Bourdais perfomance there. He qualified 4th with that STR, he was a rookie and he was fired mid-next seasson, so he wasn´t a great driver in STR´s owners eyes and even so he qualifyied 4th. STR was a great car in Monza.

mds wrote:

So if you say Newey car didn´t win until Vettel came along, it´s the same as if you say Brawn car didn´t win until Button came along

It's true though. Barichello couldn't come second in the WDC, just like Webber never got in second in the WDC (and in 2009 didn't come in third behind Vettel).

The car is more important because with a bad car nobody will win - that goes for any driver. But the driver still is a differentiating factor.

So in your opinion Brawn GP won 2009 WDC and WCC because of Button, he was the differentiantin factor, not the car...

Ok, each one with his opinion

tamalon55 wrote; This debate is asinine.

Hey, enough with the big words thanks mate.

We have Vettel fans on here you know.

Andres125sx wrote: It was at Monza, look at Bourdais perfomance there. He qualified 4th with that STR, he was a rookie and he was fired mid-next seasson, so he wasn´t a great driver in STR´s owners eyes and even so he qualifyied 4th. STR was a great car in Monza.

Even if it was great, Vettel was nearly a second faster in qualifying. That's a big, big difference.

mds wrote: The car is more important because with a bad car nobody will win - that goes for any driver. But the driver still is a differentiating factor.

So in your opinion Brawn GP won 2009 WDC and WCC because of Button, he was the differentiantin factor, not the car...

Ok, each one with his opinion

You could start citing me right. I said the driver is "a" differentiating factor. Or what else, to you, constitutes the difference between the "Button-BGP" combination and the "Barichello-BGP" combination? The driver, I take it?

Andres125sx wrote:

F1yer wrote:Vettel ...
Remember - Newey was with the team for 2-3 years and they didnt win a race until Vettel came along.

Actually Vettel has only driven one car NOT designed by Newey, only at his debut with BMW at USA. He qualified 7th and in race was 8th, wich was very good for a debut, but not asthonising (Heidfield and Kubicar were 5th and 6th in WDC, with 2 podiums)

So, What does that prove?
Only if you are starting from a wrong assumption that Newey is the Greatest designer and anyone can win in that car. , then the statement that Vettel hasnt driven anything other than Newey holds any significance.

But I have proven the first assumption wrong by saying that Newey hasnt always designed a winning car without a super fast driver.

Newey designed the car in 2007 & 2008 - What happened?
Newey designed the car for McLaren earlier ? What happened?
Newey designed the car in 2009 and the car started winning - came close to WDC when Brawn was mighty. But something else happened too that year - Vettel came onboard

SO there is a logical fallacy in your statement itself because the assumption is faulty.

His first win was Monza 08. Adrian Newey start desgining RB cars in 2007, and 2008 STR car was a copy of RB, so even the victory at Monza 08 was due to Newey design (and Ferrari engine btw)

Oft repeated but bullshit.
He won because the conditions were right and Vettel took advantage of the situation and grabbed the opportunity as best as he could.
Neither 2008 RBR or STR were that spectacular. ie Newey doesnt always design a winning car.
Thats the 2nd year in row he had produced duds for RBR.

Anything wich cannot be discussed is RB perfomance made a huge step forward in 2009, Webber joined RB in 2007 so his results are clarifying...

12th (2007)
11th (2008)
4th (2009)
3th (2010)....

That was the year Vettel joined RB, but also the year of the huge regulations change (slicks, banned most aerodynamical devices...)

Designing a winning car is not a matter of one year as you try to translate... but if there are new regulations its doable, and that´s exactly what happened with Brawn (Ross Brawn) and RB (Newey). They both improved quite a lot in 2009 , only problem for Newey car was called Ross Brawn, the only one who managed to beat him, not by far btw (Button/Brawn 95 points vs Vettel/RB 84, Brawn 172 vs RB 153.5). That was also the same year Vettel joined RB, but if you take a look to Brawn and RB perfomance that year you can easily see how Vettel was not the key factor, in 2009 Brawn and Newey made the difference. Webber results posted above prove this to be true. Then Brawn sold the team to Mercedes (perfect business) and from that point Newey car stood as the reference

A bit hard to understand the argument here but if the genral gist is how Reg changes in 2009 help , actually that only weakens your argument because Brawn got much better out of Reg CHange with much less money. IE Newey is NOT genius again.

This is the 3rd year Newey failed to produce a title winning car !! in a Reg Change year. Not so good a record !

So if you say Newey car didn´t win until Vettel came along, it´s the same as if you say Brawn car didn´t win until Button came along :]

It´s Newey, Vettel is very good, but not the key factor

Yes you could say that. Not sure how it will effect the argument that Vettel made Newey the winning designer that he is now!

Moreover both Button and Brawn were at Honda with the same team the previous year and they did pretty much nothing.
More correct statement would be Brawn didnt do much until Double Diffuser came along (which Newey the genius missed btw). DD was the only change that year - right? Button didnt sign up in 2009 and started wining?

IMO only from the Newey's time at RBR , its quite clear if you look closely that Vettel is the real reason why Newey is rated so high and any other driver may not have done that to his reputation.
If we go further back to McLaren days , there is more evidence that having Newey doesnt guarantee titles. In fact he wasnt really that well known until he got his recent success at RBR with Vettel.
Newey knows that as well and that s why he is sticking up for Vettel.

I will finish with saying that Newey is a terrific guy and a hell of a designer and my post is not to undermine his achievements. He is probably the only guy who I would take at face value. Others are a bunch of political cronies.
I just wanted to set the matters straight as far as the myth of Newey is concerned.

BTW no wonder this myth was started by Alonso in earnest and perpetuated by the media (mainly UK) and the motivation is quite simple to understand if you are a logical person. The driver is hatred of Vettel.
Fans will lap up any explanation as long as it doesnt disturb their set beleifs. They can be quite self contradictory and even hypocritical like that. (Multi 21 , suddenly loving Team Orders etc)

I take Newey without a doubt. Any top driver is going to want to join a Newey-led team. But I agree with what mds says, it depends on what happens at other teams.

I still think you need a great driver to win a title. You don't necessarily need Lewis, Alonso or Kimi, but at the very least I would want Button or Rosberg as my #1 driver.

If I can't have a combination of Newey and one of those other six drivers, I pick Vettel, so I know I have a driver who gets the best out of the car.

F1yer wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:Looks like f1yer is on his own, bless!

Bless you too ..
Its lovely to see you scamper off to hurriedly open a stupid poll every time you hear something positive about Vettel.

This thread has proved you wrong. I think you have some egg on your face.

Newey.

He can build a car that any of the top 5-10 drivers could challenge for the championship. I'm not convinced Sebastian could challenge for a title in a car like the Lotus, or Mercedes.

You do have to love the delusion of f1yer. Vettel made Newey

Newey was designing the all conquering Williams cars while Vettel was still in potty training. To say that Newey was not known before red bull is completely untrue.

Vettel has only won in Newey cars. Newey on the other hand gas won with many different drivers.

TheThirdTenor wrote:

F1yer wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:Looks like f1yer is on his own, bless!

Bless you too ..
Its lovely to see you scamper off to hurriedly open a stupid poll every time you hear something positive about Vettel.

This thread has proved you wrong. I think you have some egg on your face.

Well not really! You cant place too much importance to the collective opinion of the fans of the original (but now defunct) order which Vettel destroyed.
I know that this board is overflowing with Lewis / Alonso fans whose only refuge is the Newey argument. In fact if the poll results would have been any other way , I would have been highly surprised.

F1yer wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:

F1yer wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:Looks like f1yer is on his own, bless!

Bless you too ..
Its lovely to see you scamper off to hurriedly open a stupid poll every time you hear something positive about Vettel.

This thread has proved you wrong. I think you have some egg on your face.

Well not really! You cant place too much importance to the collective opinion of the fans of the original (but now defunct) order which Vettel destroyed.
I know that this board is overflowing with Lewis / Alonso fans whose only refuge is the Newey argument. In fact if the poll results would have been any other way , I would have been highly surprised.

You claimed that only fanboys of other drivers think Newey is more valuable than Vettel, yet one of the first responses to my thread was from a Vettel fan who said Newey is more valuable.

Therefore you are wrong.

TheThirdTenor wrote:You do have to love the delusion of f1yer. Vettel made Newey

Newey was designing the all conquering Williams cars while Vettel was still in potty training.

Vettel has only won in Newey cars. Newey on the other hand gas won with many different drivers.

Vettel hasn't also driven for any other designers if that has missed your attention.
If he did and did not win the TITLE that year, you may have some argument. Right now you dont have one.

Another logical hole is that there are many more drivers who have driven for Newey and NOT won the title as opposed to ones who have won with Newey!

Lastly , I am not saying that Newey was a bad designer before Vettel just that he wasnt the God like persona we are made to beleive currently.
The current lofty pedestal Newey is deliberately placed ON inspite of his own wishes is definitely due to Vettel and the hate he has generated among rival fans (including some media people) .

Newey has designed cars that have won 9 Constructors Titles with three different teams.

Newey has won titles in CART when it was at its peak.

Vettel has only EVER won in cars designed by Newey.

Poll: 81% to 19%.

Horner has stated that he'd rather have a top designer than a top driver, which pretty much says its the car doing the winning more than the driver.

F1yer, you have been completely and utterly shot down on this one. Your infatutation is clouding your judgement, bless.

And this is exactly the reason Vettel needs to move teams, away from Newey and the protective skirt of Red Bull, if he is to be regarded as one of the greats.

Its kinda like those boxers who only pick fighters they know they can beat. They could rack up a count of 45-0, yet if you only fight taxi drivers your credibility wont stand.

Rack up as many WDC and wins as you like, but it will only be credited to Newey.

Just another thread where those that dislike Vettel have chance to make him look bad.

If Newey is better than Vettel, then why Webber does not deliver with that super-duper Newey car? He is really not that bad!

If Newey is better than Vettel, then why Webber does not deliver with that super-duper Newey car? He is really not that bad!

Because the team is geared towards Vettel. Wing swap, Multi21 etc etc etc.

TheThirdTenor wrote:

F1yer wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:

F1yer wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:Looks like f1yer is on his own, bless!

Bless you too ..
Its lovely to see you scamper off to hurriedly open a stupid poll every time you hear something positive about Vettel.

This thread has proved you wrong. I think you have some egg on your face.

Well not really! You cant place too much importance to the collective opinion of the fans of the original (but now defunct) order which Vettel destroyed.
I know that this board is overflowing with Lewis / Alonso fans whose only refuge is the Newey argument. In fact if the poll results would have been any other way , I would have been highly surprised.

You claimed that only fanboys of other drivers think Newey is more valuable than Vettel, yet one of the first responses to my thread was from a Vettel fan who said Newey is more valuable.

Therefore you are wrong.

LOL - yes I am wrong because some Vettel fan said he would value Newey more.

BTW why dont you ask the rest of the sheep who they are fan of? That will give you a good idea if they answer honestly.

ChopSchuey wrote:

If Newey is better than Vettel, then why Webber does not deliver with that super-duper Newey car? He is really not that bad!

Because the team is geared towards Vettel. Wing swap, Multi21 etc etc etc.

What's your explanation for 2009?

And mentioning multi21 doesn't make sense as it was RBR NOT benefiting Vettel.