Vettel or Newey?

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Vettel or Newey?

Vettel
32
28%
Newey
81
72%
 
Total votes: 113

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Blake
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Blake »

As it appears that you read my post on it, Prema, you also know that I credited all members of the team for their success. Of course, it takes more than one man.

Why don't you see that same approach being applied to other teams... quite simple really. What other current team designer has had the success that Newey is enjoying. It has been posted about the success Newey has had for a couple of decades now... no other current designer can make the same claims. That is why some feel that Newey is a bigger part of Red Bull's success than the drivers. As has been said, Newey has won with other teams, with other drivers...and over a long period of time. Vettel has not.

My question is... who do some feel so threatened by Newey's recognition for his role in Red Bull's success? There is seemingly but one answer... a feeling that Vettel does not get enough credit.

Personally, and I know I will be flamed for this, I feel that there are a few other drivers (Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi in particular) who would also have great success in the Red Bulls of the last few years. And I do not think that if you could somehow put Seb in the cars of those other drivers that he would do any better than they have, perhaps in some cases not even as well.

Now, I know that opinion is probably going to have me labeled as yet another Vettel "hater", though that is far from the truth. I respect what Vettel has accomplished, he has earned it. However, that is usually not enough for some............... so be it.
Last edited by Blake on Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zoue
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Zoue »

Blake wrote:As it appears that you read my post on it, Prema, you also know that I credited all members of the team for their success. Of course, it takes more than one man.

Why don't you see that same approach being applied to other teams... quite simple really. What other current team designer has had the success that Newey is enjoying. It has been posted about the success Newey has had for a couple of decades now... no other current designer can make the same claims. That is why some feel that Newey is a bigger part of Red Bull's success than the drivers. As has been said, Newey has won with other teams, with other drivers...and over a long period of time. Vettel has not.

My question is... who do some feel so threatened by Newey's recognition for his role in Red Bull's success? There is seemingly but one answer... a feeling that Vettel does not get enough credit.

Personally, and I know I will be flamed for this, I feel that there are a few other drivers (Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi in particular) who would also have great success in the Red Bulls of the last few years. And I do not think that if you could somehow put Seb in the cars of those other drivers that he would do any better than they have, perhaps in some cases not even as well.

Now, I know that opinion is going to have me labeled as yet another Vettel "hater", though that is far from the truth. I respect what Vettel has accomplished, he has earned it. However, that is usually not enough for some............... so be it.

:thumbup:

jono794
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by jono794 »

Blake wrote:As it appears that you read my post on it, Prema, you also know that I credited all members of the team for their success. Of course, it takes more than one man.

Why don't you see that same approach being applied to other teams... quite simple really. What other current team designer has had the success that Newey is enjoying. It has been posted about the success Newey has had for a couple of decades now... no other current designer can make the same claims. That is why some feel that Newey is a bigger part of Red Bull's success than the drivers. As has been said, Newey has won with other teams, with other drivers...and over a long period of time. Vettel has not.

My question is... who do some feel so threatened by Newey's recognition for his role in Red Bull's success? There is seemingly but one answer... a feeling that Vettel does not get enough credit.

Personally, and I know I will be flamed for this, I feel that there are a few other drivers (Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi in particular) who would also have great success in the Red Bulls of the last few years. And I do not think that if you could somehow put Seb in the cars of those other drivers that he would do any better than they have, perhaps in some cases not even as well.

Now, I know that opinion is going to have me labeled as yet another Vettel "hater", though that is far from the truth. I respect what Vettel has accomplished, he has earned it. However, that is usually not enough for some............... so be it.

:thumbup:
Preach it Blake!
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Zoue
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Zoue »

Covalent wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:A wise man in a music shop once told me that a great guitar will always sounds mediocre when played through a mediocre amp. A mediocre guitar, however, can sound great through a great amp. I'm sure that's somehow applicable here.

I think he was trying to sell you an amp ;)

:lol:

aryaputhra
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by aryaputhra »

Newey of course. The man is from another planet. Trust me. He brings alien technology or something.

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mds
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by mds »

ChopSchuey wrote:
MDS wrote; What's your explanation for 2009?


Ok, here's something for you to check out.

Gather the number of points scored, race wins and podiums between Vettel and Webber pre Turkish GP of 2010, and post 2010.

I know what they are, and let me tell you there is a distinct pattern between the two.

I believe after the Turkish GP of 2010, to prevent a repeat, RBR made a decision to support Vettel and treat Mark as a number 2 driver.

Gather those figures yourself, and explain that!!!


You can't change my question to make it suit your point. In 2009, their first year together, Vettel scored 4 wins to Webbers 2, and came in second in the WDC to Webber's fourth. The difference in the WDC was 1.5 race wins, which accounts for 40 points in current money. It's a clear difference considering Vettel didn't finish way more often. Most self-inflicted, I know, but when he finished, he did a lot better than Webber.

So you're saying the team made a decision to support Vettel first and foremost in 2010, which means you don't believe they were doing that in 2009 already. Which makes sense, because he was still quite new to F1 and Webber was much more of a known quantity.
Yet Vettel still had the better of Webber in 2009.

So your answer "because the team is geared towards Vettel" to the question "why isn't Webber delivering" seems off. I'll agree it accounts for a part of the difference, but 2009 has shown that's not at all the complete answer.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

mikeyg123 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
Zoue wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:I can't begin to address the ignorance of it all... though ATH was very polite, i guess my patience is wearing thin for various reasons, so excuse me if i sound too curt at times :P

RBR is a all hail the mods team, a team which is all hail the mods led by a very capable man in Horner. As much as some here will claim otherwise, the fact that he could keep Webbo and Vettel together and working under the same roof, which is nothing short of excellent. They also have a great technical team in place, which is not entirely run by Newey but various other geniuses (reminds me and fondly so, of good old days from 2000-2004 at Ferrari) as ATH has correctly pointed out. Then let us get to the men who run the race team over the weekends, who incidentally have been very very good, save an odd mistake every now and then. Let us face it, it all boils down to making less mistakes than others and RBR have been good like that. Last piece of the puzzle is the driver and they had two very capable drivers doing their bidding. However as we've seen one driver is much more capable than the other. Vettel's genius is in how he opens up gap in the first two laps and it is baffling how some here don't get how he has turned it almost into an art-form. He speeds out at front, gets out of the DRS zone... he does it with such aplomb that most of his detractors really don't think much of it, and that to me only underlines the extent of his talent. Yes he has a very capable car, but how many times have we seen the other driver in the car do the same? Newey is of course going to be remembered as a great in F1, but Newey has never won this much with a driver if i'm not mistaken and that is something some of us here should consider.

I think you're looking at this all wrong. The question wasn't is Vettel any good, or could anybody have done what he did in the RBR? It was just asking if you had to pick one or the other who would you choose (and by implication give you the best chance of success). Essentially, what has the greatest impact, car or driver? It's just harmless fun.

And saying Newey isn't disrespectful to Vettel or questioning his contribution. Several posters have mentioned it's a combination of the two, but the weighting is more likely down to the car. Again, this is not a reflection on Seb but more on the fact that as a non-spec series the right equipment is crucial to success. All drivers want to drive in a good car, so if you have a good designer - and few would argue that Newey isn't one of the best out there - then you have a greater chance of attracting a top driver.

You mention that Newey has not one this much with one driver, which is true. But look at this another way: Newey has won several titles with multiple drivers, which tends to support the argument that his cars are top class and are less reliant on whichever driver to make them a success.

I'm looking at the OP who's been at it more than once to suggest that what he does, yet again in this thread... so my reply

Intellectual exercise? Surely... why not? Aero is not what it is used to be sometimes in early 90's. Most of the teams do a competent job when it comes to aero. The evidence of that exists in the times when Newey didn't win with his cars. Others did a better job than him for most of the '00s. While at the same time, aero is where most of the gains could be had till this year. Everything changes for next year (may be a couple of years or so), but it will soon fall back to aero. Aero and integration i think as there are many more things being added to the car. While Newey's been great, a decade without a title proves as much needs to be proven. He needs a competent team around him to win something, as does any other designer.

A driver like Alonso who did what he could last year in what was clearly a car which was not going to be able to win (but was a solid car for solid points every race) many races last year... However, a better car always helps mount a better challenge. Similarly Schumacher did what he did in '96 and winning as many races as he did that year and at one race, made the rest of the field look like muppets. From '97 he was always in contention... till '05 when rule changes to disadvantage Ferrari finally caught them up to slow them down. Vettel has been in contention for 5 years on a row... now with a good chance to win his 4th title on the trot. The talent, it shows...

A team like Benetton which won all that lay before them in '95 then went on to win not so much in '96. The designer of the car was the same... the very same Rory Byrne who humbled Newey for most of the '00s. So what did change? The team around the designer...

If i was a team principal... of course having a competent car will matter to me. However, a competent will matter to me even more, as without competent people to run it about, it means nothing. A good case study will be the year 2000. McLaren overall was a much better car... it was more powerful, more efficient than Ferrari, more compliant on kerbs. Ferrari were much better on strategy and Schumacher was one man who mastered that better than any one in the refuelling era. Brawn was one man who could come up with some ideas which were out of this world, or so it seemed. How many times they won races which they shouldn't have had? This is what wins you races, this is what wins you titles. McLaren has lost titles with the best car around... as recently as last year and quite spectacularly so.



Hard to disagree with this or your previous quoted post. Benetton in 1996 is a very good example as well. You could argue that having a top driver (Schumacher) caused a swing of 11 wins from 95 to 96. 9 less for Benneton and 2 more for Ferrari.


96 and 95 cars were different. According to Ross Brawn, the B196 had some fundamental flaws.

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Prema wrote:
Turbo Guaman wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:
Blake wrote:grow up, F1yer. You are making yourself look quite foolish


:thumbup:


:thumbdown: He is not the one that started a poll just to ridicule Vettel and a member of the forum.


Agree. That was obviously the agenda behind OP, as he (TTT) even confirmed that by his cheering over his success to teach "f1yer" his lesson which would hopefully make him a better person now. To me, it feels like a sort of a (group) mobbing. Never mind the Vettel agenda (that's entertainment part), but it feels fairy cakes to see it being done against a fellow forum member. Low class.

So I think we've established that its not just fanboys of other drivers that think Newey is more valuable than Vettel.

Hopefully f1yer has learnt his lesson and is a better person for it.


If a certain member wants to label everyone who disagrees with his opinion as a fanboy of other drivers, and also wants to make outrageous statements which turn out not to be true, then that certain has brought the ridicule upon himself.

Hopefully f1yer has learnt his lesson and will not be so narrow minded in future.

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

As for the people saying that Newey is no guarantee of success due to the drought he went through in the early 00s, this is true. Though no designer is a guarantee of success. However Newey has the best record of any designer in the modern day, and with 3 different teams and multiple drivers. If you were to hire anyone in the hope of getting instant success, it would be him.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Andres125sx »

Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Andres125sx wrote:Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I dont think people like the thread being specific to Vettel & Newey, and consider it a "bash thread", reasonable considering some of the opinions that a thread with such a title will produce.
Hence why I said there should be a both option as its a specific to Red Bull's success.

I think it should be made less specific, driver vs designer.
No matter where you look on the grid a designer/engineer is more valuable than a driver... doesnt matter how much fans of the drivers dont want to believe it.

Bob Bell is more valuable to Mercedes than Hamilton
Pat Fry is more valuable to Ferrari than Alonso
Adrian Newey is more valuable to Red Bull than Vettel

Designer > Driver
Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

F1yer
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by F1yer »

TheThirdTenor wrote:
Prema wrote:
Turbo Guaman wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:
Blake wrote:grow up, F1yer. You are making yourself look quite foolish


:thumbup:


:thumbdown: He is not the one that started a poll just to ridicule Vettel and a member of the forum.


Agree. That was obviously the agenda behind OP, as he (TTT) even confirmed that by his cheering over his success to teach "f1yer" his lesson which would hopefully make him a better person now. To me, it feels like a sort of a (group) mobbing. Never mind the Vettel agenda (that's entertainment part), but it feels fairy cakes to see it being done against a fellow forum member. Low class.

So I think we've established that its not just fanboys of other drivers that think Newey is more valuable than Vettel.

Hopefully f1yer has learnt his lesson and is a better person for it.


If a certain member wants to label everyone who disagrees with his opinion as a fanboy of other drivers, and also wants to make outrageous statements which turn out not to be true, then that certain has brought the ridicule upon himself.

Hopefully f1yer has learnt his lesson and will not be so narrow minded in future.


I promise to be a better person and not be so narrow minded from now on. ;)

F1yer
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by F1yer »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I dont think people like the thread being specific to Vettel & Newey, and consider it a "bash thread", reasonable considering some of the opinions that a thread with such a title will produce.
Hence why I said there should be a both option as its a specific to Red Bull's success.

I think it should be made less specific, driver vs designer.
No matter where you look on the grid an designer/engineer is more valuable than a driver... doesnt matter how much fans of the drivers dont want to believe it.

Bob Bell is more valuable to Mercedes than Hamilton
Pat Fry is more valuable to Ferrari than Alonso
Adrian Newey is more valuable to Red Bull than Vettel

Designer > Driver


Bingo. Thats a great way to put it.
But something tells me that OP wont agree to Pat Fry being more valuable than Alonso.

Zoue
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Zoue »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I dont think people like the thread being specific to Vettel & Newey, and consider it a "bash thread", reasonable considering some of the opinions that a thread with such a title will produce.
Hence why I said there should be a both option as its a specific to Red Bull's success.

I think it should be made less specific, driver vs designer.
No matter where you look on the grid an designer/engineer is more valuable than a driver... doesnt matter how much fans of the drivers dont want to believe it.

Bob Bell is more valuable to Mercedes than Hamilton
Pat Fry is more valuable to Ferrari than Alonso
Adrian Newey is more valuable to Red Bull than Vettel

Designer > Driver

:thumbup:

Nice summary

Irbis
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Irbis »

Zoue wrote:on the basis that a great driver can't do anything with a mediocre car, yet a mediocre driver can still get a positive result with a great car, I'd have to say Newey.

Yeah, like certain Webber, that was never WDC 2nd even in dominant 2011 RBR car, even his 3rd was result of win Vettel gifted him by slowing down? :lol:

Unless you qualify Webbo far below 'mediocre', of course.

Newey might be good, but I bet if you swapped 2010 and 2012 Alonso and Vettel, Vettel would still take both WDCs. Webber single-handedly proves what results most other drivers would get in RB - unless of course Ricciardo beats his results massively next year, then I guess 'just below mediocre' will be proven.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I ran this poll, but extended to four drivers and four designers, back in February.

Thread: You can only hire one

Code: Select all

Alonso:    ======== 16%
Hamilton:  ========= 18%
Vettel:    ===== 10%
Raikkonen: ====== 12%
Newey:     ================= 34%
Byrne:     ==== 8%
Lowe:      = 1%
Brawn:     = 2%

Zoue
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Zoue »

Irbis wrote:
Zoue wrote:on the basis that a great driver can't do anything with a mediocre car, yet a mediocre driver can still get a positive result with a great car, I'd have to say Newey.

Yeah, like certain Webber, that was never WDC 2nd even in dominant 2011 RBR car, even his 3rd was result of win Vettel gifted him by slowing down? :lol:

Unless you qualify Webbo far below 'mediocre', of course.

Newey might be good, but I bet if you swapped 2010 and 2012 Alonso and Vettel, Vettel would still take both WDCs. Webber single-handedly proves what results most other drivers would get in RB - unless of course Ricciardo beats his results massively next year, then I guess 'just below mediocre' will be proven.

Not sure I'd agree with that. On what basis? What makes him the barometer?

Besides, I never mentioned any driver could win the WDC in a Newey car. I was just pointing out that from a team's perspective they need a good car first, then a good driver in the car. Webber has had positive results in the RBR every year: he's had poles and podiums, after all, but he never really did much before 2009, which shows that he, like most drivers, needs a decent car in order to perform.

Why does every top driver want an RBR seat? Because they acknowledge the car is the best out there.

It's not about Newey being better than Vettel or anything like that, just in which order a team's priorities are IMO. Black_Flag_11 summed it up best above

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Irbis wrote:
Zoue wrote:on the basis that a great driver can't do anything with a mediocre car, yet a mediocre driver can still get a positive result with a great car, I'd have to say Newey.

Yeah, like certain Webber, that was never WDC 2nd even in dominant 2011 RBR car, even his 3rd was result of win Vettel gifted him by slowing down? :lol:

Unless you qualify Webbo far below 'mediocre', of course.

Newey might be good, but I bet if you swapped 2010 and 2012 Alonso and Vettel, Vettel would still take both WDCs. Webber single-handedly proves what results most other drivers would get in RB - unless of course Ricciardo beats his results massively next year, then I guess 'just below mediocre' will be proven.


Alonso came close to winning the 10 and 12 titles in cars that were inferior to the red bull. Give him the red bull and he it is logical to think that he would have won both titles comfortably.

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I dont think people like the thread being specific to Vettel & Newey, and consider it a "bash thread", reasonable considering some of the opinions that a thread with such a title will produce.
Hence why I said there should be a both option as its a specific to Red Bull's success.

I think it should be made less specific, driver vs designer.
No matter where you look on the grid a designer/engineer is more valuable than a driver... doesnt matter how much fans of the drivers dont want to believe it.

Bob Bell is more valuable to Mercedes than Hamilton
Pat Fry is more valuable to Ferrari than Alonso
Adrian Newey is more valuable to Red Bull than Vettel

Designer > Driver


I don't think fry or bell are the equivalent of Newey. More like costa and tombazis.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

TheThirdTenor wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I dont think people like the thread being specific to Vettel & Newey, and consider it a "bash thread", reasonable considering some of the opinions that a thread with such a title will produce.
Hence why I said there should be a both option as its a specific to Red Bull's success.

I think it should be made less specific, driver vs designer.
No matter where you look on the grid a designer/engineer is more valuable than a driver... doesnt matter how much fans of the drivers dont want to believe it.

Bob Bell is more valuable to Mercedes than Hamilton
Pat Fry is more valuable to Ferrari than Alonso
Adrian Newey is more valuable to Red Bull than Vettel

Designer > Driver


I don't think fry or bell are the equivalent of Newey. More like costa and tombazis.

Fair enough, replace names as you will, but high ranking members of the technical team are more important to any team than drivers, Fry/Tombazis, or Costa/Bell/Willis etc. etc.

They are all more important to an F1 team than any specific drivers. Same applies to every team.
Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

angrypirate
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by angrypirate »

Zoue wrote:
Irbis wrote:
Zoue wrote:on the basis that a great driver can't do anything with a mediocre car, yet a mediocre driver can still get a positive result with a great car, I'd have to say Newey.

Yeah, like certain Webber, that was never WDC 2nd even in dominant 2011 RBR car, even his 3rd was result of win Vettel gifted him by slowing down? :lol:

Unless you qualify Webbo far below 'mediocre', of course.

Newey might be good, but I bet if you swapped 2010 and 2012 Alonso and Vettel, Vettel would still take both WDCs. Webber single-handedly proves what results most other drivers would get in RB - unless of course Ricciardo beats his results massively next year, then I guess 'just below mediocre' will be proven.

Not sure I'd agree with that. On what basis? What makes him the barometer?

Besides, I never mentioned any driver could win the WDC in a Newey car. I was just pointing out that from a team's perspective they need a good car first, then a good driver in the car. Webber has had positive results in the RBR every year: he's had poles and podiums, after all, but he never really did much before 2009, which shows that he, like most drivers, needs a decent car in order to perform.

Why does every top driver want an RBR seat? Because they acknowledge the car is the best out there.

It's not about Newey being better than Vettel or anything like that, just in which order a team's priorities are IMO. Black_Flag_11 summed it up best above

I wouldnt call Webber a mediocre driver. And yes, some drivers would have performed like him, others better, others worse. On his day and in the right conditions Webber has every right to be mixing it with the big boys and the champs.

Webber has struggled to adjust his driving style to maximise the potential of the EBD / Coander exhuast. Thats why we see him challenging Vettel in races such as Monaco, where its benefit is limited, not to mention at Silverstone the other year when there was a one off race ban on EBDs.

Its counter-intuitive - by getting on the throttle earlier after a corner, flow from the exhaust increases in turn increasing downforce produced by the diffuser. It really plants the rear of the car coming out of a corner under acceleration but the flip side is that it doesnt really favour drivers who are really late brakers and who like oversteer. It favours those drivers who brake slightly earlier, but have the confidence in getting on the throttle a lot earlier - almost daringly early.

Adrian Newey has done wonders with the diffuser to maximise the engineering potential and in turn Vettel has nailed this technique. Massive credit to the both of them. It just goes to show that it is the combination of the two that have won these titles. I do believe, however, there are other drivers who would have successfully nailed this technique in a RBR like Vettel given the chance - Hamilton and Alonso are probably the two best drivers on the grid right now who are renowned for their ability to change their driving style to maximise the potential of the car and driver around car issues.

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Are you guys really questioning Newey talent in this thread? 8O


That´s like questioning if Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are any good drivers.... absurd!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

I dont think people like the thread being specific to Vettel & Newey, and consider it a "bash thread", reasonable considering some of the opinions that a thread with such a title will produce.
Hence why I said there should be a both option as its a specific to Red Bull's success.

I think it should be made less specific, driver vs designer.
No matter where you look on the grid a designer/engineer is more valuable than a driver... doesnt matter how much fans of the drivers dont want to believe it.

Bob Bell is more valuable to Mercedes than Hamilton
Pat Fry is more valuable to Ferrari than Alonso
Adrian Newey is more valuable to Red Bull than Vettel

Designer > Driver


I don't think fry or bell are the equivalent of Newey. More like costa and tombazis.

Fair enough, replace names as you will, but high ranking members of the technical team are more important to any team than drivers, Fry/Tombazis, or Costa/Bell/Willis etc. etc.

They are all more important to an F1 team than any specific drivers. Same applies to every team.


Yes, but Newey moreso because of his track record.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

TheThirdTenor wrote:Yes, but Newey moreso because of his track record.

Well not really moreso, perhaps he is more valuable than other designers..... but all top designers are more valuable than drivers, even the great ones.

So who is the most valuable designer is a different debate & hardly a straight forward one IMO as its the collective team of designers, not an individual, which makes the difference.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Designers who are not Newey can be easily replaced (see costa being
Replaced by fry at Ferrari). However Newey can not be easily replaced. Look at how Williams fell off the map after he left.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheThirdTenor wrote:Designers who are not Newey can be easily replaced (see costa being
Replaced by fry at Ferrari). However Newey can not be easily replaced. Look at how Williams fell off the map after he left.


But then look at Mclaren - The cars they are producing have not been any slower than they were in the last 5 years or so Newey was there. In fact they even won a world championship shortly after. Something Newey had not given them since 1999.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

We saw how Newey turned Mclaren around when he joined. Most of the paddock were shocked at Melbourne 98.

Now look at Mclaren. No podiums this season.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by RacingFan1 »

garagetinkerer wrote:
GordonSmith wrote:Newey for sure, Vettel can be replaced by any middle field driver and redbull still can get WDC.

:uhoh:

LOL!
I've been taking a look at it, and I would bet that, without Vettel, and each driver as number one, probably half of the grid would be capable of wining the WDC with the Red Bull.
Last edited by RacingFan1 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

TheThirdTenor wrote:Designers who are not Newey can be easily replaced (see costa being
Replaced by fry at Ferrari). However Newey can not be easily replaced. Look at how Williams fell off the map after he left.

And look how Mclaren faltered afterward, they had a top car in 07/08/half of 09/10/11/12.

Newey is an amazing designer and he is certainly one of the best of all time, but take him out of Red Bull and put another strong designer in and they would still be a top team.

He is one of the most talented designers in the business, but the belief that he is head and shoulders above the other top designers isnt true IMO. Its close at the front.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

RacingFan1 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
GordonSmith wrote:Newey for sure, Vettel can be replaced by any middle field driver and redbull still can get WDC.

:uhoh:

LOL!
I've been taking a look at it, and I would bet that, without Vettel, and each driver as number one, probably half of the grid would be capable of wining the WDC with the Red Bull.

Well id rate only 4/5 drivers above Webber on the grid including Vettel and he hasnt done it..... so id say your formula has gone wrong somewhere mate ;)

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by mds »

RacingFan1 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
GordonSmith wrote:Newey for sure, Vettel can be replaced by any middle field driver and redbull still can get WDC.

:uhoh:

LOL!
I've been taking a look at it, and I would bet that, without Vettel, and each driver as number one, probably half of the grid would be capable of wining the WDC with the Red Bull.


I don't believe half the field would have gotten 3 consecutive WDC's though.
Go Vandoorne :( - Verstappen - Vettel!

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:Designers who are not Newey can be easily replaced (see costa being
Replaced by fry at Ferrari). However Newey can not be easily replaced. Look at how Williams fell off the map after he left.

And look how Mclaren faltered afterward, they had a top car in 07/08/half of 09/10/11/12.

Newey is an amazing designer and he is certainly one of the best of all time, but take him out of Red Bull and put another strong designer in and they would still be a top team.

He is one of the most talented designers in the business, but the belief that he is head and shoulders above the other top designers isnt true IMO. Its close at the front.


No designer has a record that matches up to his. Byrne is the closest but he is in a part time role these days and only won with 1 driver.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by F1yer »

TheThirdTenor wrote:
No designer has a record that matches up to his. Byrne is the closest but he is in a part time role these days and only won with 1 driver.



All right - Tell me one thing - Who would you value more Alonso or Newey?

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

F1yer wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:
No designer has a record that matches up to his. Byrne is the closest but he is in a part time role these days and only won with 1 driver.



All right - Tell me one thing - Who would you value more Alonso or Newey?


No brainier - Newey.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Laura23 »

F1yer wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:
No designer has a record that matches up to his. Byrne is the closest but he is in a part time role these days and only won with 1 driver.



All right - Tell me one thing - Who would you value more Alonso or Newey?

Any sane person would pick the designer over the driver any time. The driver can't do anything about the car he's driving once the designer (design team) has designed it. It's the designer who makes the big difference to a team's performance, in all the teams. Not just Red Bull.

So the design team at Ferrari are far more important to the team's performance than Alonso is, same at Red Bull, McLaren etc. It doesn't mean the driver is useless, of course the top drivers are still top drivers but they rely on a design team for their performance as much as the next driver.
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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by henners88 »

Newey is more valuable than Vettel I would say and probably Red Bull think so too as his yearly wage is more than Vettels. There are a handful of drivers in F1 right now who are on par with Vettel, but in terms of technical ability, nobody appears to be adapting as well as Adrian Newey IMO. I think more talent goes into developing an F1 car with such a brilliant aero package, than having the ability to drive it to victory. Just my opinion.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Zoue »

mds wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
GordonSmith wrote:Newey for sure, Vettel can be replaced by any middle field driver and redbull still can get WDC.

:uhoh:

LOL!
I've been taking a look at it, and I would bet that, without Vettel, and each driver as number one, probably half of the grid would be capable of wining the WDC with the Red Bull.


I don't believe half the field would have gotten 3 consecutive WDC's though.

I'm not even sure half the grid would have had a WDC with the RBR, though. The title was very close in 2010 and 2012 and I think only a top driver would have been able to achieve the same. The usual suspects maybe - Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton - along with possibly Button if he felt comfortable in the car, but not sure about anybody else. 2011 IMO was as much to do with the car and driver('s style) being a perfect match as anything else, which is why I feel Webber was so far behind.

I think more than half the grid would be capable of winning races in the RBR, but not so sure about titles

edit: spelling
Last edited by Zoue on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by benmc »

Irbis wrote:
Zoue wrote:on the basis that a great driver can't do anything with a mediocre car, yet a mediocre driver can still get a positive result with a great car, I'd have to say Newey.

Yeah, like certain Webber, that was never WDC 2nd even in dominant 2011 RBR car, even his 3rd was result of win Vettel gifted him by slowing down? :lol:

Unless you qualify Webbo far below 'mediocre', of course.

Newey might be good, but I bet if you swapped 2010 and 2012 Alonso and Vettel, Vettel would still take both WDCs. Webber single-handedly proves what results most other drivers would get in RB - unless of course Ricciardo beats his results massively next year, then I guess 'just below mediocre' will be proven.


Take a look at Webber's results since the start of 2011. He isn't that good.
- He has scored 62.6% of Vettel's points.
- He has just 58.5% of Vettel's points this season.
- For comparison, Rosberg has 73.8% of Hamilton's points this year. Is Seb that much better than Lewis or is Nico that much better than Mark?
- He has just 3 wins compared to Vettel's 22. That is 3 wins in 51 races.
- If you want to go back to Hungary 2010, that is 3 wins in 58 races.
- Wins for other drivers in the last 58 races: Alonso & Hamilton 9, Button 6, Rosberg 3, Raikkonen 2. Consider that Button has had a slow car for 12 of those, Rosberg for many more, and Raikkonen only entered 32 of those races.

If I had one, I'd bet my house that Ricciardo will score more than 58.5% of Vettel's points next year. I'd also bet that, if the Red Bull remains a title-winning car, Ricciardo will score more than 3 wins in his first 58 Red Bull races.

I don't buy the idea that Webber proves what 'most other drivers' would do in the RBR. IMO there are 7-10 drivers who would do a better job.
I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by pokerman »

F1yer wrote:
pokerman wrote:Obviously you think that but Ferrari clearly don't


No, they DO think that being titleless for the last 5 years is something not acceptable.
They are bringing changes in form of Kimi even over Alonso's attempts to block it.

I am sure if Vettel was available , he would have been Ferrari's #1 choice for the seat.
Perhaps ThirdTenor can do a poll to confirm my feelings with PF1Forum :)

Vettel was available but he extended his contract with Red Bull
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

benmc wrote:If I had one, I'd bet my house that Ricciardo will score more than 58.5% of Vettel's points next year. I'd also bet that, if the Red Bull remains a title-winning car, Ricciardo will score more than 3 wins in his first 58 Red Bull races.

I have high hopes for Daniel...... but if I were you I wouldn't bet that much on a driver we don't know much about yet, 58.5% of a 3, possibly 4 time champion wouldn't be too bad for a driver in his first season at the front of the grid.

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Re: Vettel or Newey?

Post by RacingFan1 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
GordonSmith wrote:Newey for sure, Vettel can be replaced by any middle field driver and redbull still can get WDC.

:uhoh:

LOL!
I've been taking a look at it, and I would bet that, without Vettel, and each driver as number one, probably half of the grid would be capable of wining the WDC with the Red Bull.

Well id rate only 4/5 drivers above Webber on the grid including Vettel and he hasnt done it..... so id say your formula has gone wrong somewhere mate ;)

Please read well. I've said WITHOUT VETTEL and as a NUMBER ONE of the team. Webber in those circumstances would've won at least two WDC (2010-2011)
Last edited by RacingFan1 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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