Did RBR make a conscience decision?

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ChopSchuey
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Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by ChopSchuey »

....after Turkey 2010?

Had some spare time and thought i would have a look at the stats, and it surprised me somewhat.

From the beginning of the 2009 season and up to and including Turkey 2010, the following;

Webber 162.5 pts, 4 wins, 8 podiums.
Vettel 162.0 pts, 5 wins, 6 podiums.

So in all, pretty damn even. Webber actually ahead on points, and wins podiums combined.

From Turkey 2010 to the end of 2011, the following;

Vettel 570pts, 16 wins, 11 podiums.
Webber 407 pts, 3 wins, 11 podiums.

A huge difference.

Now, just 3 races after Turkey came the British GP, famous for the "not bad for a number 2 driver" comment and wing swap saga. Was this a sign that the 2 drivers had been told and Webber was letting out his frustration?

Do you think RBR made a conscience decision from the Turkish GP onwards to support Vettel in every way, the wing swap being the first such move?

Think its a coincidence that all was very even, Webber slightly ahead, yet after Turkey Webber has gotten belted on track in every way including mechanical failures?

Interesting.......................

F1yer
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by F1yer »

Hmm - Interesting tidbit and play of numbers.
I am loathe to assign it to the same basket (now overflowing) of other tinfoil theories. But thats probably where it belongs.

Trouble is that you dont see the individual races rather simply look at season end totals. If you look at the races, you would see that Webber jumped Seb in title points and was leading him after Turkey and even Silverstone .

The real change in Seb came after Spa - He simply stepped up a gear. We all have Martin Whitmarsh to thank for that (or NOT !)
He put his head down - ignored anyone around him - including his rivals and his teammate. Drove each race as best as he could.
Won the title all by himself and moved on to 2011 on a high. Hence the points differential between him and Webber.


- - In case I am wrong , I guess we dont ahve very long to wait for Webber's tell-all book now that he is free from the clutches of the empire !

DisaterX47
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by DisaterX47 »

Red Bull will become the new Ferrari when it comes to their drivers next year. They chose Ricciardo because he's not as fiery as Mark Webber and won't slag the team off if he has to move out the way for Vettel. This is also why they didn't sign on Raikkonen and Alonso.
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bbobeckyj
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by bbobeckyj »

Is it not most probable that no matter who did what to who, and when, and why,...that Vettel has simply got better during this time.

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Black_Flag_11
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

ChopSchuey wrote:
From Turkey 2010 to the end of 2011, the following;

Shouldnt really compare across the two seasons, should show points after Turker 2010 till the end of the year, then 2011 seperate.

Red Bull didnt have to make any decisions in 2011, Webber was struggling with the EBD effects combined with the new Pirelli's. Vettel was managing a 10 second gap to the rest because he mastered the driving style.

In 2012 they could have left the cars how they were and it probably would have been similar to 2010.... but they wouldnt have won the championship. Yes the changes favored Vettels style, but they were faced with losing the title with a car which suited Mark or winning with a car which suited Vettel. Ultimately they just made the car faster and Vettel responded.

Its pretty clear that Vettel has more support like Alonso at Ferrari and although seems a bit early to say, Hamilton at Mercedes. But like with those two teams Red Bull are not out to deliberately make one driver lose, they are out to win and it makes no difference to them who does win.

pokerman
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by pokerman »

ChopSchuey wrote:....after Turkey 2010?

Had some spare time and thought i would have a look at the stats, and it surprised me somewhat.

From the beginning of the 2009 season and up to and including Turkey 2010, the following;

Webber 162.5 pts, 4 wins, 8 podiums.
Vettel 162.0 pts, 5 wins, 6 podiums.

So in all, pretty damn even. Webber actually ahead on points, and wins podiums combined.

From Turkey 2010 to the end of 2011, the following;

Vettel 570pts, 16 wins, 11 podiums.
Webber 407 pts, 3 wins, 11 podiums.

A huge difference.

Now, just 3 races after Turkey came the British GP, famous for the "not bad for a number 2 driver" comment and wing swap saga. Was this a sign that the 2 drivers had been told and Webber was letting out his frustration?

Do you think RBR made a conscience decision from the Turkish GP onwards to support Vettel in every way, the wing swap being the first such move?

Think its a coincidence that all was very even, Webber slightly ahead, yet after Turkey Webber has gotten belted on track in every way including mechanical failures?

Interesting.......................

No it was mainly close upto the middle of 2010 because of Vettel's inexperience, mistakes and mechanical breakdowns, with better luck at the beginning of 2010 i believe Vettel would have walked away with the WDC, similar to 2011, Webber was thrown a lifeline in 2010 which kept him in contention
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Kev627
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Kev627 »

bbobeckyj wrote:Is it not most probable that no matter who did what to who, and when, and why,...that Vettel has simply got better during this time.

I've always been amazed that people would rather other peoples misfortunes etc are the reason Vettel has done so well over last couple of seasons than he might actually be a bloody good driver who is just getting better!

ferdinand
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by ferdinand »

ChopSchuey wrote:From the beginning of the 2009 season and up to and including Turkey 2010, the following;

Webber 162.5 pts, 4 wins, 8 podiums.
Vettel 162.0 pts, 5 wins, 6 podiums.

So in all, pretty damn even. Webber actually ahead on points, and wins podiums combined.

From Turkey 2010 to the end of 2011, the following;

Vettel 570pts, 16 wins, 11 podiums.
Webber 407 pts, 3 wins, 11 podiums.

A huge difference.

Remember that the situation before Turkey 2010 happened because of Vettel's many mechanical gremlins while Webber didn't have any, costing Vettel so many points, even denying him several potential wins.

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by TheThirdTenor »

F1yer wrote:Hmm - Interesting tidbit and play of numbers.
I am loathe to assign it to the same basket (now overflowing) of other tinfoil theories. But thats probably where it belongs.

Trouble is that you dont see the individual races rather simply look at season end totals. If you look at the races, you would see that Webber jumped Seb in title points and was leading him after Turkey and even Silverstone .

The real change in Seb came after Spa - He simply stepped up a gear. We all have Martin Whitmarsh to thank for that (or NOT !)
He put his head down - ignored anyone around him - including his rivals and his teammate. Drove each race as best as he could.
Won the title all by himself and moved on to 2011 on a high. Hence the points differential between him and Webber.


- - In case I am wrong , I guess we dont ahve very long to wait for Webber's tell-all book now that he is free from the clutches of the empire !


Having the fastest car in the field didn't help him one bit :uhoh:

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by A2jdl »

That's right and not forgetting turkey was a team order to let Vettel through so it actually started there

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bourbon19
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by bourbon19 »

TheThirdTenor wrote:
F1yer wrote:Hmm - Interesting tidbit and play of numbers.
I am loathe to assign it to the same basket (now overflowing) of other tinfoil theories. But thats probably where it belongs.

Trouble is that you dont see the individual races rather simply look at season end totals. If you look at the races, you would see that Webber jumped Seb in title points and was leading him after Turkey and even Silverstone .

The real change in Seb came after Spa - He simply stepped up a gear. We all have Martin Whitmarsh to thank for that (or NOT !)
He put his head down - ignored anyone around him - including his rivals and his teammate. Drove each race as best as he could.
Won the title all by himself and moved on to 2011 on a high. Hence the points differential between him and Webber.


- - In case I am wrong , I guess we dont ahve very long to wait for Webber's tell-all book now that he is free from the clutches of the empire !


Having the fastest car in the field didn't help him one bit :uhoh:


Help who? Mark or Seb, or both?

oz_karter
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by oz_karter »

F1yer wrote:In case I am wrong , I guess we dont ahve very long to wait for Webber's tell-all book now that he is free from the clutches of the empire !


He is still going to have personal sponsorship from Red Bull when he goes to Porsche sportscars, so we might have to wait a while for that one ;).

Even as a Webber fan, I don't believe there was a deliberate change in 2010 to shift all support to Vettel. I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?

Mark may have been better off at Renault or as lead driver somewhere else, but he has had a good run at Red Bull. It hasn't exactly been the Barrichello under Schumacher situation.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Andres125sx »

oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Mizanthropic »

Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Then again Schumi has never had team orders go against him. When he joined Ferrari there was always a clear pecking order. Vettel didn't have that luxury in Malaysia. Red Bull proved that they are willing to back whoever is in front and Vettel was not having it.
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F1yer
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by F1yer »

Mizanthropic wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Then again Schumi has never had team orders go against him. When he joined Ferrari there was always a clear pecking order. Vettel didn't have that luxury in Malaysia. Red Bull proved that they are willing to back whoever is in front and Vettel was not having it.


Or Alonso / Lewis & Kimi
Its amazing that people think that Seb is having an easier time wrt to the teammate situation.
All the while supporting Alonso and Lewis who both have actual #2s supporting their bid for the title.

When in reality the only top driver who has been given an team order NOT favoring him is Sebastian.

I think its about time RBR levelled the playing field and gave Vettel a #2 as well.
He will be beating the competition out of the park every season
Last edited by F1yer on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by F1yer »

Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Aha .. very big of him to gift lil Rubens a victory. . . but only as a return gift for one he was gifted himself to secure the title but didnt have the beans to turn down when he was 3 wins ahead of the rest in title battle.

Very good team player - Mr Schumacher - NOT!

mikeyg123
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Vettel just improved. remember at the start of 2010 he was still inexperienced and extremely young for a front running driver. In reality that 2010 Red Bull is probably the car with the biggest advantage over the field that Vettel has driven.

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Yellowbin74 »

Mizanthropic wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Then again Schumi has never had team orders go against him. When he joined Ferrari there was always a clear pecking order. Vettel didn't have that luxury in Malaysia. Red Bull proved that they are willing to back whoever is in front and Vettel was not having it.


Didn't Schumi have to move over to give Irvine a win in the '99 (I think it was '99) season?
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Mizanthropic »

Yellowbin74 wrote:
Mizanthropic wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Then again Schumi has never had team orders go against him. When he joined Ferrari there was always a clear pecking order. Vettel didn't have that luxury in Malaysia. Red Bull proved that they are willing to back whoever is in front and Vettel was not having it.


Didn't Schumi have to move over to give Irvine a win in the '99 (I think it was '99) season?


That was Malaysia '99. Schumacher had pole and let Irvine pass at the start of the race to hold up the Macca's. The only reason he did this was because Irvine was the WDC contender because Schumacher missed most of the season due to a broken leg.
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Prema »

Andres125sx wrote:When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO


And now Vettel supposedly doing whatever he wants since Sepang, do you think such a situation has been benefitting RBR's and Vettel's concurrence, such as Ferrari and Alonso, or not? Looks to me that both the WCC and WDC titles are on the way to... (you got one opportunity only to make a guess).

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Andres125sx
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Andres125sx »

Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O


They win, yes, but that does not justify anything...

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Andres125sx
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Andres125sx »

F1yer wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Aha .. very big of him to gift lil Rubens a victory. . . but only as a return gift for one he was gifted himself to secure the title but didnt have the beans to turn down when he was 3 wins ahead of the rest in title battle.

Very good team player - Mr Schumacher - NOT!


I never said he is, but even Schumacher obey team orders, while Vettel didn´t....

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Andres125sx wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Aha .. very big of him to gift lil Rubens a victory. . . but only as a return gift for one he was gifted himself to secure the title but didnt have the beans to turn down when he was 3 wins ahead of the rest in title battle.

Very good team player - Mr Schumacher - NOT!


I never said he is, but even Schumacher obey team orders, while Vettel didn´t....


Who can blame him? Red Bull set the example when they didn't punish Webber after Silverstone.

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Prema »

Andres125sx wrote:Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O


They win, yes, but that does not justify anything...


But it was you complaining "Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed". So what are you complaining about? RBR and Vettel are doing just perfect. They got no issues, apparently. They lead both championships and are in control of it. The only one here who appears to still have an issue with it, and how RBR is being managed, is you.

Try to understand that disobeying some team order is not a criminal act that calls for a punishment. It is not about breaking some religious principles either. It is the matter of a relationship between the involved parties, and it is up to them how to resolve it. If the team decided that no punishment was needed, then that's it. If the owner of the team decides that it is fine with him if Vettel "now can do whatever he wants", then that's it. Then it all is justified.

Maybe you can write a letter to Mr. Mateschitz and explain him all about "how an F1 team should be managed"??? :lol:

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mds »

Andres125sx wrote:Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O


Well, his lead is what is is thanks to disobeying the TO's. Else his advantage would be 7 points smaller.

It's easy to talk for Alonso-fans on this matter, when Alonso doesn't and wouldn't get TO's against him in the first place.
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Beschy »

I presume we are working on RBR making a conscious decision and not a conscience decision?
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Andres125sx »

Prema wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O


They win, yes, but that does not justify anything...


But it was you complaining "Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed". So what are you complaining about? RBR and Vettel are doing just perfect. They got no issues, apparently. They lead both championships and are in control of it. The only one here who appears to still have an issue with it, and how RBR is being managed, is you.

Try to understand that disobeying some team order is not a criminal act that calls for a punishment. It is not about breaking some religious principles either. It is the matter of a relationship between the involved parties, and it is up to them how to resolve it. If the team decided that no punishment was needed, then that's it. If the owner of the team decides that it is fine with him if Vettel "now can do whatever he wants", then that's it. Then it all is justified.

Maybe you can write a letter to Mr. Mateschitz and explain him all about "how an F1 team should be managed"??? :lol:


If you like ill-bred and misbehaving drivers, then it´s up to you to support him

To me drivers must have some education and respect to his rivals, and specially with his team mate, what Vettel has proved to lack. Yes your team mate is your first rival, but that is compatible with some education and respect

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Andres125sx »

mds wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O

Well, his lead is what is is thanks to disobeying the TO's. Else his advantage would be 7 points smaller.


His advantage would be 7 point smaller and still would be a consistent leader..... and he wouldn´t look like a childish

mds wrote:It's easy to talk for Alonso-fans on this matter, when Alonso doesn't and wouldn't get TO's against him in the first place.

And Vettel killed his parents.....

Without any prove, evidence, link or anything to prove it, that is just bu####it from someone who can´t get Vettel doesn´t have any respect to his team mate, boss and team

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mds »

Andres125sx wrote:His advantage would be 7 point smaller and still would be a consistent leader..... and he wouldn´t look like a childish


To me he doesn't look childish. Selfish, yes.

And Vettel killed his parents.....


He does bring them success though. Now, I can't say I have never had quarrels with my parents, even if our relationship is very good. Falling out does not mean everything is broken.

Without any prove, evidence, link or anything to prove it, that is just bu####it from someone who can´t get Vettel doesn´t have any respect to his team mate, boss and team


Prove what? That Alonso doesn't and wouldn't get TO's against him? Well, the past is easy: do you have one example of the opposite?
The future, that much is true: that's a guess on my behalf.

But I can just as well make the point only including the past. No problem :)

About the respect part: well, if Webber doesn't show Vettel respect, why should Vettel be crucified for acting the same?
And I'm pretty sure Vettel is very thankful for what he can accomplish through the hard work of the team, and thus respectful for them. He's known for being at the factory and working with them a lot. Red mist moments do not negate all that.
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Andres125sx »

mds wrote:
Without any prove, evidence, link or anything to prove it, that is just bu####it from someone who can´t get Vettel doesn´t have any respect to his team mate, boss and team


Prove what? That Alonso doesn't and wouldn't get TO's against him? Well, the past is easy: do you have one example of the opposite?
The future, that much is true: that's a guess on my behalf.

Things don´t work that way mds, if you accuse someone of something, you must preset proves. I did with Vettel to say he´s a childish (Webber and karthykeyan), but you didn´t with Alonso so I must think you don´t have any evidence and it´s only your hostility with Alonso.... :thumbdown:


mds wrote:About the respect part: well, if Webber doesn't show Vettel respect, why should Vettel be crucified for acting the same?


Again, any prove about that? If my memory serves me well, it was a fair battle, no team orders there


It´s very easy to say wathever you want, the difficult part is to prove it.... And you´re proving nothing

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Andres125sx wrote:
Prema wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O


They win, yes, but that does not justify anything...


But it was you complaining "Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed". So what are you complaining about? RBR and Vettel are doing just perfect. They got no issues, apparently. They lead both championships and are in control of it. The only one here who appears to still have an issue with it, and how RBR is being managed, is you.

Try to understand that disobeying some team order is not a criminal act that calls for a punishment. It is not about breaking some religious principles either. It is the matter of a relationship between the involved parties, and it is up to them how to resolve it. If the team decided that no punishment was needed, then that's it. If the owner of the team decides that it is fine with him if Vettel "now can do whatever he wants", then that's it. Then it all is justified.

Maybe you can write a letter to Mr. Mateschitz and explain him all about "how an F1 team should be managed"??? :lol:


If you like ill-bred and misbehaving drivers, then it´s up to you to support him

To me drivers must have some education and respect to his rivals, and specially with his team mate, what Vettel has proved to lack. Yes your team mate is your first rival, but that is compatible with some education and respect



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWJCGInsVUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY

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mds
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mds »

Andres125sx wrote:Things don´t work that way mds, if you accuse someone of something, you must preset proves.


Wait, back up a little. What did I accuse Alonso of exactly?

My alleged hostility against Alonso is only in your head. You mistake "not being a fan(boy)" for "being hostile".
But I'll just use your words: if you accuse me of being hostile towards Alonso, I'd like to give me some actual proof of it.


mds wrote:Again, any prove about that? If my memory serves me well, it was a fair battle, no team orders there


Webber directly disobeyed TO's at Silverstone a few years ago.
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mac_d
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by mac_d »

Is the Turkey 2010 comparison not a little bit bias as Vettel had had a race win taken to retirement in Australia and in Bahrain was lucky to end up 4th from a potential easy win losing another 13 points. That is a 38 point loss. Webber makes up 2 points as it raised him from 9th to 8th.

Then again Webber probably had bad luck I've forgotten. Vettel seems to only ever have catastrophic bad luck, usually losing him a win. Webber seems to just have a consistent gremlim slowing him down a little every race.

Anyway, I don't believe RBR have attempted to directly hinder Webber or benefit Vettel specifically. If they have done, it's because something that made the car faster happened to suit Vettel more.

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by jono794 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
Prema wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Do you really think that is because Vettel did disobey team orders and didn´t get any punishment??? 8O


They win, yes, but that does not justify anything...


But it was you complaining "Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed". So what are you complaining about? RBR and Vettel are doing just perfect. They got no issues, apparently. They lead both championships and are in control of it. The only one here who appears to still have an issue with it, and how RBR is being managed, is you.

Try to understand that disobeying some team order is not a criminal act that calls for a punishment. It is not about breaking some religious principles either. It is the matter of a relationship between the involved parties, and it is up to them how to resolve it. If the team decided that no punishment was needed, then that's it. If the owner of the team decides that it is fine with him if Vettel "now can do whatever he wants", then that's it. Then it all is justified.

Maybe you can write a letter to Mr. Mateschitz and explain him all about "how an F1 team should be managed"??? :lol:


If you like ill-bred and misbehaving drivers, then it´s up to you to support him

To me drivers must have some education and respect to his rivals, and specially with his team mate, what Vettel has proved to lack. Yes your team mate is your first rival, but that is compatible with some education and respect



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWJCGInsVUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY

That's incredibly unfair on Webber. To even suggest those two situations are comparable says more about you than anything else. No comment on Vettel's 'be wise boys' comment? All that clip shows is who really calls the shots on race day, and it ain't Horner.
"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
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jono794
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by jono794 »

mds wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Things don´t work that way mds, if you accuse someone of something, you must preset proves.


Wait, back up a little. What did I accuse Alonso of exactly?

My alleged hostility against Alonso is only in your head. You mistake "not being a fan(boy)" for "being hostile".
But I'll just use your words: if you accuse me of being hostile towards Alonso, I'd like to give me some actual proof of it.


mds wrote:Again, any prove about that? If my memory serves me well, it was a fair battle, no team orders there


Webber directly disobeyed TO's at Silverstone a few years ago.

No he didn't.
"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
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Toby.
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Toby. »

Well.. he tried to.
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specdecible
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by specdecible »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
oz_karter wrote:I do think that at times they have favoured Seb, but can you blame them?


YES

When a driver disobey team orders you HAVE to pusnish him. Do you think Vettel will obey any more team orders after ignoring his boss and not receiving any penalty?

Now he can do whatever he wants, that´s not how an F1 team should be managed IMHO

I´m not saying they should give the same chances to the two drivers, but even if he´s the #1 he have to obey team orders.


BTW, I´ve never seen Michael Schumacher ignoring team orders, and I´ve seen him gifting Rubens a victory, so yes you´re right, not the same case ;)


Aha .. very big of him to gift lil Rubens a victory. . . but only as a return gift for one he was gifted himself to secure the title but didnt have the beans to turn down when he was 3 wins ahead of the rest in title battle.

Very good team player - Mr Schumacher - NOT!


I never said he is, but even Schumacher obey team orders, while Vettel didn´t....


Who can blame him? Red Bull set the example when they didn't punish Webber after Silverstone.

That's because before that race Red Bull said they would never use team orders, making a big deal out of Ferrari and the Germany incident, then at the first opportunity Webber looked to challenge Vettel they used them. tiddled off a lot of fans at how hypocritical Red Bull management were being and of course Webber who was told team orders would not take place.

You can't really use Silverstone to justify Malaysia.
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Fr33m3
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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by Fr33m3 »

The more reasonable explanation that doesn't require pure conjecture regarding a conspiracy theory would be: Webber is over the hill while Vettel is still climbing it. If you look at any athelete's numbers in their respective sport, there will be a time where there numbers stop going up, year on year, and start going down. The unfortunate thing for Webber is:

1) He only got a real contender of a car when he was approaching the top of his hill
2) He was placed with a teammate, during the period where he was approaching his crest, that was superior to him

I know people like Webber and I can understand why they do, but people, for whatever reason, want to be entirely dismissive of the obvious conclusion to the last three seasons: Vettel is better than Webber. Why is that so impossibly hard to believe? It's not just one lap, one race, one season sample size -- Vettel is consistently able to outdrive Webber. Why must there be some conspiracy where Red Bull decided that they would inhibit one driver just to boost the other? Use your head because there's one simple explanation and one explanation that would require a great deal of people being in on a very big secret that's never managed to get out.

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Re: Did RBR make a conscience decision?

Post by jono794 »

Toby. wrote:Well.. he tried to.

Yes probably... I still think he showed that he could if he wanted to, but didn't. When he was on the outside he gave a BIG lift, but that could have been because he thought Vettel wouldn't leave room.

I shouldn't have said anything... But specdecible's post highlights how frustrating it is to see that incident compared to Malaysia this year, or to Alonso in Hungary 2007. He went against the team's wishes yes, but the circumstances were vastly different.
"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
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