planetf1.com

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

tmzxaar wrote:

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.


Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

What about spa? I'm sure I remember Jenson having a half decent weekend there

tmzxaar wrote:

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

I bet he forgot to mention to Mercedes that he's a car breaker... (Just kidding! I think. )

Fiki wrote:

tmzxaar wrote:

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

I bet he forgot to mention to Mercedes that he's a car breaker... (Just kidding! I think. )

Well to be fair to MW that was only used as ammo in the Hamilton/Button threads

It must feel their drivers with confidence that they merely got lucky last year

I get the feeling with McLaren that they just love over analysing things with all their super computors

Solari12 wrote:
"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Really dont want to go too far into this, but a car cannot outperform its capabilities, regardless of who is driving it. Martin refers to the car outperforming its expectations from the wind tunnel.
A very simplified version of all this is that the wind tunnel only showed say 90% of what the car was capable of. Not that the drivers performed to over 100% of what the car is capable of.

Whatever hotshot...

So McLaren also has wind tunnel gremlins. Not very reliable those nowadays.

Already this is turning into a Button vs Hamilton thread, despite no mention of either driver in the article.

It doesn't exactly reflect well on Mclaren when the TP says that the 1 time they built the fastest car in this era of technical regulations, they basically lucked into it.

TheThirdTenor wrote:Already this is turning into a Button vs Hamilton thread, despite no mention of either driver in the article.

It doesn't exactly reflect well on Mclaren when the TP says that the 1 time they built the fastest car in this era of technical regulations, they basically lucked into it.

And look which driver was mentioned first, in the first post after the OP, with the image in the posters avatar and the first driver in the posters sig!

Not pointing the finger, but it's odd how these things always happen when there is even the slightest hint that a certain driver can be shown in a good way to be nothing short of flawless and amazing. Funny how we rarely see that with Kimi, Alonso, Button, Webber, Rosberg or Massa and not much with Seb either

Anyway, what Black Flag said! And this is surely another reason to bring back more in season testing as either the teams don;t understand how to read the wind tunnel data or don't know how to use them properly. If 2 big teams like Ferrari and McLaren are having problems with their cars because the wind tunnel is providing inaccurate data, then it must be a good thing to allow testing, even if it is just for 1 year so the teams can understand how the wind tunnel data can be transferred to track times.

TheThirdTenor wrote:Already this is turning into a Button vs Hamilton thread, despite no mention of either driver in the article.

It doesn't exactly reflect well on Mclaren when the TP says that the 1 time they built the fastest car in this era of technical regulations, they basically lucked into it.

Well, at least they've not yet accused me for being biased against a certain driver... and how i'm trying to undermine his achievements here...

minchy wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:Already this is turning into a Button vs Hamilton thread, despite no mention of either driver in the article.

It doesn't exactly reflect well on Mclaren when the TP says that the 1 time they built the fastest car in this era of technical regulations, they basically lucked into it.

And look which driver was mentioned first, in the first post after the OP, with the image in the posters avatar and the first driver in the posters sig!

Not pointing the finger, but it's odd how these things always happen when there is even the slightest hint that a certain driver can be shown in a good way to be nothing short of flawless and amazing. Funny how we rarely see that with Kimi, Alonso, Button, Webber, Rosberg or Massa and not much with Seb either

Anyway, what Black Flag said! And this is surely another reason to bring back more in season testing as either the teams don;t understand how to read the wind tunnel data or don't know how to use them properly. If 2 big teams like Ferrari and McLaren are having problems with their cars because the wind tunnel is providing inaccurate data, then it must be a good thing to allow testing, even if it is just for 1 year so the teams can understand how the wind tunnel data can be transferred to track times.

Thing is, models are restricted to 60% of original, so not all information may accurately transfer, then there's the issue of real world dynamics like head/ tail wind etc., track surface and more...

I wonder whether Mercedes hired some more "technical directors" to mess with everybody elses windtunnels...

Seriously though, I do hope some more testing will help teams like McLaren, Ferrari and Williams sort their cars out and get back to where they should be

Windtunnel no good? Maybe we should go with CFD. - Oh, wait...

Solari12 wrote:Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.

The same driver who get less points than his much older teammate over 3 years?

Driver known recently mostly for the sad state of his dog who gets more love from competing teams?

Or maybe it was driver who despite his teammate getting ban on overtaking him got less victories for his team?

It seems that aerodynamics are so advanced and fine tuned now that small marginal errors in the wind tunnel calibration are having large effects on track. This must have been masked 10 years ago because I don't remember so many teams having so many issues with wind tunnels. It is the first time I've heard of a team getting more than they expected. Accidentally designed a rocket ship.

Irbis wrote:

Solari12 wrote:Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.

The same driver who get less points than his much older teammate over 3 years? But wins 2-1

Driver known recently mostly for the sad state of his dog who gets more love from competing teams? True that Kimi joke was fun, Especially when he was asked about it at the last thursday press conference and was sweating peas when he couldn't find an answer. Then he pointed at the Lotus marketing guy.

Or maybe it was driver who despite his teammate getting ban on overtaking him got less victories for his team? Seems you forgot that Silverstone tyre blow out.

lamo wrote:It seems that aerodynamics are so advanced and fine tuned now that small marginal errors in the wind tunnel calibration are having large effects on track. This must have been masked 10 years ago because I don't remember so many teams having so many issues with wind tunnels. It is the first time I've heard of a team getting more than they expected. Accidentally designed a rocket ship.

10 years ago teams could use full scale wind tunnel models which eliminates errors that may occur now with an inaccurate 50%/60% model. Also, 10 years teams could test when they wanted so would be able to fine tune everything outside race weekends.

TheThirdTenor wrote:

lamo wrote:It seems that aerodynamics are so advanced and fine tuned now that small marginal errors in the wind tunnel calibration are having large effects on track. This must have been masked 10 years ago because I don't remember so many teams having so many issues with wind tunnels. It is the first time I've heard of a team getting more than they expected. Accidentally designed a rocket ship.

10 years ago teams could use full scale wind tunnel models which eliminates errors that may occur now with an inaccurate 50%/60% model. Also, 10 years teams could test when they wanted so would be able to fine tune everything outside race weekends.

To my knowledge no team has ever had a 100% wind tunnel?
There are only 1 or 2 in the world, I know there is one in America that is big enough for a full sized F1 car. The tunnel size and price grows exponentially with scale.

Irbis wrote:

Solari12 wrote:Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.

The same driver who get less points than his much older teammate over 3 years?

Driver known recently mostly for the sad state of his dog who gets more love from competing teams?

Or maybe it was driver who despite his teammate getting ban on overtaking him got less victories for his team?

I hope that made you feel really good?

lamo wrote:

TheThirdTenor wrote:

lamo wrote:It seems that aerodynamics are so advanced and fine tuned now that small marginal errors in the wind tunnel calibration are having large effects on track. This must have been masked 10 years ago because I don't remember so many teams having so many issues with wind tunnels. It is the first time I've heard of a team getting more than they expected. Accidentally designed a rocket ship.

10 years ago teams could use full scale wind tunnel models which eliminates errors that may occur now with an inaccurate 50%/60% model. Also, 10 years teams could test when they wanted so would be able to fine tune everything outside race weekends.

To my knowledge no team has ever had a 100% wind tunnel?
There are only 1 or 2 in the world, I know there is one in America that is big enough for a full sized F1 car. The tunnel size and price grows exponentially with scale.

Yes it seems you are right. After a quick bit of research, it seems only Sauber and another tunnel in Windshear are the only 100% scale wind tunnels which can be used commercially. It seems that the energy bill is too big for it to be viable. I guess teams used to use 50% scale models coupled with constant speed aero tests?

pokerman wrote:

Irbis wrote:

Solari12 wrote:Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.

The same driver who get less points than his much older teammate over 3 years?

Driver known recently mostly for the sad state of his dog who gets more love from competing teams?

Or maybe it was driver who despite his teammate getting ban on overtaking him got less victories for his team?

I hope that made you feel really good?

Why don't you say something chiding the other guy too??? for the sake of being even handed and balanced, as that particular poster took this threat off topic.

McLaren building a quick car, i should have known something was wrong

Watching Mclaren at the Hungaroring, they looked like a midfield team but I didn't expect them to be. There was a lot of Button fans at the track, I kept a bit quiet as I support Lewis but it was a good weekend for me but the Button fans looked a bit fedup. I just wish Mclaren would actually do some kind of technical reshuffle. Sure what he is saying is fine (MW), but why did they change the wheel base when it was working perfectly fine the year before. I remember the days when Mclaren used to be a fighting force, against Ferrari now I fear they may end up like Williams. Williams have a lot of technical resource, infrastructure etc, is Mclaren going the same way? Lets hope Mclaren sort out their act next year as they should be a top team.

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

I only remembered Canada where Lewis lapped Button.

tmzxaar wrote:

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

It was simply Hamilton that made the car looked better then it actually was, the same is happening at Mercedes-Benz, but people will come with excuse after excuse why McL is poor this year

Robbo-92 wrote:

tmzxaar wrote:

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.


Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

What about spa? I'm sure I remember Jenson having a half decent weekend there

The team mislead Lewis.

@ Jim i just checked you might be right.

The Mp27 was the worst yet the 28 was the best?

Jim wrote: It was simply Hamilton that made the car looked better then it actually was, the same is happening at Mercedes-Benz, but people will come with excuse after excuse why McL is poor this year

Really, Hamilton is making the Mercedes look better than it is? If you said, Hamilton is outperforming Rosberg, that is another matter... I thought 7 pole positions (Rosberg scored 3, 4 for Hamilton) out of 10 races so far, the 3 wins (2 for Rosberg and 1 for Lewis) and being second in the WCC is evidence enough that car is good, well at least as of now...

garagetinkerer wrote:

Jim wrote: It was simply Hamilton that made the car looked better then it actually was, the same is happening at Mercedes-Benz, but people will come with excuse after excuse why McL is poor this year

Really, Hamilton is making the Mercedes look better than it is? If you said, Hamilton is outperforming Rosberg, that is another matter... I thought 7 pole positions (Rosberg scored 3, 4 for Hamilton) out of 10 races so far, the 3 wins (2 for Rosberg and 1 for Lewis) and being second in the WCC is evidence enough that car is good, well at least as of now...

Had i said it about Alonso i doubt you would argue that, despite it's clear that Alonso can't direct a team in the right direction for 4 years now

Jim wrote:

tmzxaar wrote:

Robbo-92 wrote:

Solari12 wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109224



I sincerely wish Ferrari had such luck

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...

It was simply Hamilton that made the car looked better then it actually was, the same is happening at Mercedes-Benz, but people will come with excuse after excuse why McL is poor this year

Rosberg has more points than he did this time last year, and Button has less points than he did this time last year. I think that tells you what you need to know about the respective cars. Hamilton is a great driver, but lets use our brains a little bit.

Jim wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:

Jim wrote: It was simply Hamilton that made the car looked better then it actually was, the same is happening at Mercedes-Benz, but people will come with excuse after excuse why McL is poor this year

Really, Hamilton is making the Mercedes look better than it is? If you said, Hamilton is outperforming Rosberg, that is another matter... I thought 7 pole positions (Rosberg scored 3, 4 for Hamilton) out of 10 races so far, the 3 wins (2 for Rosberg and 1 for Lewis) and being second in the WCC is evidence enough that car is good, well at least as of now...

Had i said it about Alonso i doubt you would argue that, despite it's clear that Alonso can't direct a team in the right direction for 4 years now

Well Alonso is not team principal !

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh feels 2012 car 'overperformed'"

Might have been the driver he let go that overperformed.
Funny the Merc this year seems to have the same ' problem'

The only way a car can "overperform" is if the human behind the wheel has the ability to compensate on the fly for the cars' deficiencies.

Some driver can do this. Others need to have the car set up perfectly or they are lost.

Lets not forget that Jenson got lapped three times last season by Lewis in the same car.

Lets not also forget that although Lewis got 4 wins in that car, Jenson also won 3 times as well.[/quote]

Lets nit also forget that Lewis retired 3 times from the lead due to mech fails/other drivers + started from the back in Spain and finished in front of Jenson...[/quote]

It was simply Hamilton that made the car looked better then it actually was, the same is happening at Mercedes-Benz, but people will come with excuse after excuse why McL is poor this year [/quote]

Rosberg has more points than he did this time last year, and Button has less points than he did this time last year. I think that tells you what you need to know about the respective cars. Hamilton is a great driver, but lets use our brains a little bit.[/quote]

Don't forget that the MP4-28 is build around Button and with his input. The Mercedes on the hand had the potential but was not unlocked, Schumacher never liked simulator something Hamilton likes. Lewis knew how a good car feels so he was the one to do much of simulator work. Even Schumacher himself said that he was surprised with the current form of the Mercedes-Benz so don't pretend that Hamilton had nothing to do with it.

I dare say the 2013 McLaren was unitially based around Lewis. He was their lead driver when they'd have started design, so he'd have been the person they had in mind when developing the vehicle. Alterations may have occurred later, after the announcement he'd be leaving, but it's still fundamentally a Lewis car.

TheThirdTenor wrote: Rosberg has more points than he did this time last year, and Button has less points than he did this time last year. I think that tells you what you need to know about the respective cars. Hamilton is a great driver, but lets use our brains a little bit.

I'm quoting this for one reason - this post can't be repeated enough. That's the actual situation described in simple terms.

The problem with the 2013 Mclaren isnt the driver in it, put Schumacher in his prime in that car and it wouldnt be doing much better.

Button made a lot of comments about being exited to drive the new car before the season, so that tells us it is really a good car and he is just making it look bad? please.

IMO Button is doing a fantastic job this year and im not sure anyone could have done much better, Button lost a wheel in Malaysia, if he hadnt I think he would have finished 4th. Had he not been held up by the caterhams in Germany he would have finished 5th. Im not a Button fan but he is doing a brilliant job in that Mclaren this year, I think he could be fighting at the very top again come 2014/15.

Toby. wrote:I dare say the 2013 McLaren was unitially based around Lewis. He was their lead driver when they'd have started design, so he'd have been the person they had in mind when developing the vehicle. Alterations may have occurred later, after the announcement he'd be leaving, but it's still fundamentally a Lewis car.

Indeed but McLaren scrapped that and build a complete new car without Hamilton's input.