Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

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flyboy10
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by flyboy10 »

How does that photograph work? It looks like Webber going in to the pits with his tyre already off!?

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runningman67
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by runningman67 »

Yes, weird, it does needs some explaining. Is it fake? Or from another incident I wonder.


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tmzxaar
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by tmzxaar »

How can you not understand this? :D

When the tyre fell of Webber kept going and came to a stop at the end of the pitlane + the tyre was bouncing, hit the reporter end then kept bouncing to the pitwall.

This photo was taken at the moment he was going to stop and the tyre was heading to the pitwall.
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runningman67
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by runningman67 »

tmzxaar wrote:How can you not understand this? :D



:blush: Don't let anyone else know, will you. ;)

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Toby.
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by Toby. »

I do believe he's passed the wheel by this point (if that wasn't obvious enough!) and the mechanic we can see actually works for Toro Rosso. He was then pushed down the pits back to the Red Bull box at the entry.
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runningman67
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by runningman67 »

I thought it was a new secret wing design.

One things for sure. The cameraman it hit, didn't get such a view of it. :-|

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Peter McG.
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Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Peter McG. »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23454803

First the reduce in speed in the pits and now this.

Personally I feel the incident in Germany was an extremely rare mishap and I fear now pit stops will be too slow and less spectacular.

scuderia_stevie
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by scuderia_stevie »

Peter McG. wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23454803

First the reduce in speed in the pits and now this.

Personally I feel the incident in Germany was an extremely rare mishap and I fear now pit stops will be too slow and less spectacular.

In many ways pit stops shouldn't be spectacular, the good stuff stays on the track.

Harsh to punish a driver for mechanics' mistakes, I'd still be in favour of loss of constructors points.
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wire2004
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by wire2004 »

As I've stated in another thread.

Germany was a unfortunate incident. There is so much over reaction to the incident. The last time we had a incident was when. San Marino 94. With the minardi losing his.wheel hitting the Ferrari pit crew.

flyboy10
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by flyboy10 »

tmzxaar wrote:How can you not understand this? :D

When the tyre fell of Webber kept going and came to a stop at the end of the pitlane + the tyre was bouncing, hit the reporter end then kept bouncing to the pitwall.

This photo was taken at the moment he was going to stop and the tyre was heading to the pitwall.


But isn't that his pit crew that he's heading for?

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AFCTUJacko
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by AFCTUJacko »

No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by pokerman »

I don't like the idea of drivers being punished for mistakes in the pitlane, for instance wasn't Webber punished enough for the mistake itself so they end up getting a double punishment?

I would be happier with loss of constructors points.
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Peter McG.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Peter McG. »

pokerman wrote:I don't like the idea of drivers being punished for mistakes in the pitlane, for instance wasn't Webber punished enough for the mistake itself so they end up getting a double punishment?

I would be happier with loss of constructors points.


Good point. How must it feel to be a completely not responsible for your team's errors and yet you're the one that is punished. I guess it's the same for gear box changes, but that's the reliability of the car.

sandybbq
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Re: Hmmm Pressure from the paymasters?

Post by sandybbq »

flyboy10 wrote:
tmzxaar wrote:How can you not understand this? :D

When the tyre fell of Webber kept going and came to a stop at the end of the pitlane + the tyre was bouncing, hit the reporter end then kept bouncing to the pitwall.

This photo was taken at the moment he was going to stop and the tyre was heading to the pitwall.


But isn't that his pit crew that he's heading for?


That is a Toro Rosso mechanic you see - they are much further down the pit-lane due to not scoring many points :p

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Lt. Drebin »

This is ridiculous and way too far!
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by lamo »

One small pit lane error out of the drivers hands and potentially 2 races ruined :thumbdown:

That could literally destroy a title challenge in a split second mistake.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Formula1Fan. »

I despise grid penalties for instances where a driver is generally not at fault e.g. gearbox changes, unsafe releases etc.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Pedrosa_4_Ever »

Drivers get DQed for small errors by their teams (like Sauber in Australia a couple of years ago), I don't see how this is much different...
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runningman67
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by runningman67 »

It's the fans that suffer. Surely thats more important.
Constructors Points would be better.

beanchimp
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by beanchimp »

The cameraman suffered last time

Germany wasn't a rare mishap, a wheel coming off / not being secured properly has happened twice this year by the same team, the same pit crew, the same driver, the same car, the same wheel

Gearbox changes can be the result of a driver pushing too hard, same with tyres etc

It is a difficult one on who to punish, but I do agree with others that the team should be punished if it is the teams fault by way of constructor point deductions

mikeyg123
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Too far for me. There are much better ways to ensure pit lane safety.

wolfticket
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by wolfticket »

Not far enough.

Sending a car out without a wheel attached is dangerous and usually avoidable, and there is precedent prior to the Webber incident. The reason it happens is because teams are sacrificing safety for speed. Potentially injuring (or worse) someone completely uninvolved for the sake of a couple of tenths really isn't on.

In my opinion (excepting unforeseeable technical errors), the penalty for sending out a car with a loose wheel should be very draconian. If you make the penalty hurt enough the advantage gained from taking risks wont be worth it and the teams will find a way to stop it from happening.

And as for it penalising the blameless driver, well, as the old adage goes: You win as a team you lose as a team.
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Zoue
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

Bad idea IMO. Penalising a driver for something the pit crew may have done - I see no sense in that. Odds are his race will be ended anyway and then he also suffers a grid penalty next race? Very poorly thought out :thumbdown:

cucoloco
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by cucoloco »

wolfticket wrote:You win as a team you lose as a team.


:thumbup:

mikeyg123
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

lamo wrote:One small pit lane error out of the drivers hands and potentially 2 races ruined :thumbdown:

That could literally destroy a title challenge in a split second mistake.


:thumbup: I agree its ridiculous to penalize a driver for something out of his control.

mikeyg123
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Surely if this kind of deterrent worked then we would never see cars released without wheels as it has a much greater penalty than a 10 place grid drop already.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by JohnnyGuitar »

At last, a meaningful penalty that'll make the teams take this issue more seriously.

Expect Red Bull's propensity for wheels to drop off to suddenly be cured.

mikeyg123
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

JohnnyGuitar wrote:At last, a meaningful penalty that'll make the teams take this issue more seriously.

Expect Red Bull's propensity for wheels to drop off to suddenly be cured.


You don't think retirement from the race is a penalty? Or at least a huge time loss.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by jpmoroney »

wolfticket wrote:You win as a team you lose as a team.
:thumbup:

F1 is a team sport. It takes something like 70 crew members at the track to grid a top car (Sauber quotes 47 operational and 20 press, catering, etc). Every one of these people owns a portion of a win and, in the event of a mistake, a portion of blame.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by JohnnyGuitar »

mikeyg123 wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:At last, a meaningful penalty that'll make the teams take this issue more seriously.

Expect Red Bull's propensity for wheels to drop off to suddenly be cured.


You don't think retirement from the race is a penalty? Or at least a huge time loss.


I certainly don't think a derisory fine is a suitable penalty.

They obviously need a bit more motivation to make sure they get the pitstops done correctly and safely.

mikeyg123
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

JohnnyGuitar wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:At last, a meaningful penalty that'll make the teams take this issue more seriously.

Expect Red Bull's propensity for wheels to drop off to suddenly be cured.


You don't think retirement from the race is a penalty? Or at least a huge time loss.


I certainly don't think a derisory fine is a suitable penalty.

They obviously need a bit more motivation to make sure they get the pitstops done correctly and safely.


As I said they do not only receive a fine. Usually a mistake like that means you are out of the race. That is a pretty big penalty and if that is not big enough then I don't see why a ten place grid drop would be.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by tlux »

lamo wrote:One small pit lane error out of the drivers hands and potentially 2 races ruined :thumbdown:

That could literally destroy a title challenge in a split second mistake.


A stop go, or drive through isn't really a penalty because generally the driver stops on track, or ends up being last anyway after a tyre comes off. Mark got lucky with the SC in Germany. But generally, if your tyre comes off, you're not going to get points/finish anyway. So there needs to be a penalty.

Im ok with grid penalty. Monetary fines are pointless.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Aussie Grit »

AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.

What sporting penalty can you give that doesn't effect webber?
It wasn't Webber's fault the tyre fell off.
I think a fine is.............. fine lol but perhaps a heftier one next time?
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

tlux wrote:
lamo wrote:One small pit lane error out of the drivers hands and potentially 2 races ruined :thumbdown:

That could literally destroy a title challenge in a split second mistake.


A stop go, or drive through isn't really a penalty because generally the driver stops on track, or ends up being last anyway after a tyre comes off. Mark got lucky with the SC in Germany. But generally, if your tyre comes off, you're not going to get points/finish anyway. So there needs to be a penalty.

Im ok with grid penalty. Monetary fines are pointless.

I disagree. Sometimes an accident is just that, an accident. There doesn't need to be a penalty for everything, especially when the original act doesn't benefit a team in any way.


If they do need their pound of flesh, then I should have thought WCC points would be an effective deterrent. Most of the teams have gone on record at some point to say that the WCC is important to them, so it would hurt. I don't see how affecting the outcome of the next race is rational or desirable.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

tlux wrote:
lamo wrote:One small pit lane error out of the drivers hands and potentially 2 races ruined :thumbdown:

That could literally destroy a title challenge in a split second mistake.


A stop go, or drive through isn't really a penalty because generally the driver stops on track, or ends up being last anyway after a tyre comes off. Mark got lucky with the SC in Germany. But generally, if your tyre comes off, you're not going to get points/finish anyway. So there needs to be a penalty.

Im ok with grid penalty. Monetary fines are pointless.


Surely that is the penalty?

angrypirate
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by angrypirate »

Doesnt go far enough. I agree that it is an accident in that the tyre wasnt on correctly, but it is as a result of rushing the pit stops. Make the punishment harsh and it makes it worthwhile the team spending an extra second in checking the tyres are on.

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minchy
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by minchy »

I'm with most people here, a grid drop at the next race is not a good penalty. Loss of the teams total WCC points from both drivers for the current race would sit better with me, the drivers could still keep their WDC points. So the team is punished, not the drivers.
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hittheapex
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by hittheapex »

One thing is clear, fines are meaningless, but agree with several comments posted already that call into question the grid penalties. Give the drivers bigger mirrors or don't make them liable for dangerous pit stops.

WCC points docked makes sense, but only if they find some way of making it consistent. If they only dock the points when there is an actual collision in the pits, it will be tempting for teams to take the chance just in case the driver behind manages to take avoiding action. Brundle had a good idea about painting lines in the pit lane, and if another car is past that line when a team releases their car, they get a penalty. Easy to monitor and implement. Few pots of paint and some cameras. Teams sloppiness should not be overlooked because of other drivers quick reactions, as it has been in the past. It is the "close the door after the horse has bolted" mentality.
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Classic
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Classic »

A driver shouldn't be punished for a pit crew error, the only way to really punish the team and not the driver is to give a WCC points penalty. A set number of WCC points could be deducted for team errors. I don't know how this would work with the teams that have no points though.

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