Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

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Covalent
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Covalent »

I think it's better than a cash fine.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by JohnnyGuitar »

mikeyg123 wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:At last, a meaningful penalty that'll make the teams take this issue more seriously.

Expect Red Bull's propensity for wheels to drop off to suddenly be cured.


You don't think retirement from the race is a penalty? Or at least a huge time loss.


I certainly don't think a derisory fine is a suitable penalty.

They obviously need a bit more motivation to make sure they get the pitstops done correctly and safely.


As I said they do not only receive a fine. Usually a mistake like that means you are out of the race. That is a pretty big penalty and if that is not big enough then I don't see why a ten place grid drop would be.


Red Bull have failed to properly attach one of Webber's wheels twice this season already. Clearly the knowledge they will be out of the race isn't enough to make them ensure their pitstop procedure and systems are safe enough to ensure it doesn't happen.

Maybe the threat of a sporting penalty as well will concentrate minds ar RBR - and other teams too.

ALESI
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by ALESI »

Peter McG. wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23454803

First the reduce in speed in the pits and now this.

Personally I feel the incident in Germany was an extremely rare mishap and I fear now pit stops will be too slow and less spectacular.


They won't, I bet it won't make a bit of difference. Do you seriously think Red Bull are going to take their time in the pits? It's not a deterrent at all, just another penalty that has to be taken if it happens...
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by pokerman »

Classic wrote:A driver shouldn't be punished for a pit crew error, the only way to really punish the team and not the driver is to give a WCC points penalty. A set number of WCC points could be deducted for team errors. I don't know how this would work with the teams that have no points though.

Well if they had minus points it would put them behind other teams with no points
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by seandean41 »

This is an absolutely ludicrous penalty.

As with most everyone else here, things that are the teams fault should cost only the team.

What next? DQ for stalling on the grid?
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by wolfticket »

seandean41 wrote:This is an absolutely ludicrous penalty.

As with most everyone else here, things that are the teams fault should cost only the team.

What next? DQ for stalling on the grid?

Should driver mistakes only cost the driver?
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by vlad_t »

AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by donr »

Maybe a stinging percentage of FOM money at the end of the year. The fine doubles for each subsequent penalty. The penalty money gets divided up amongst all the teams who did not have an unsafe release penalty that year.

Big fines hurt, giving that money to your competitors is salt in the wound.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by vlad_t »

Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


They do care about wheels. The don't care about releasing in front of incoming car. They will release the car as soon as all four corners are ready. No regards for incoming cars whatsoever. Then, if release happened to be too close, they'll routinely pay laughable fine. That's why we get near-collisions in pits EVERY race. They essentially continue to race in pits with 100s of people on the "track". Crazy.

You think that would happen if fine was a cool 1 mil?
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by mikeyg123 »

vlad_t wrote:
Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


They do care about wheels. The don't care about releasing in front of incoming car. They will release the car as soon as all four corners are ready. No regards for incoming cars whatsoever. Then, if release happened to be too close, they'll routinely pay laughable fine. That's why we get near-collisions in pits EVERY race. They essentially continue to race in pits with 100s of people on the "track". Crazy.

You think that would happen if fine was a cool 1 mil?


Clear evidence the teams are capable of judging it perfectly as there are a hell of a lot more near collisions than collisions.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

vlad_t wrote:
Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


They do care about wheels. The don't care about releasing in front of incoming car. They will release the car as soon as all four corners are ready. No regards for incoming cars whatsoever. Then, if release happened to be too close, they'll routinely pay laughable fine. That's why we get near-collisions in pits EVERY race. They essentially continue to race in pits with 100s of people on the "track". Crazy.

You think that would happen if fine was a cool 1 mil?

Why stop at $1M? Why not $5M? $10M? And why not ban them for 5 races while you're at it?

You can always make a punishment sufficiently draconian that teams will go completely out of their way to avoid it. In the above scenario the effect of such a crippling fine would be to make stops so slow that you could probably do an oil change and service while you're at it. Is that the aim?

But even with that, you will still get the odd individual making mistakes. It is a human thing to do. Especially in a racing environment where speed is of the utmost essence and every millisecond counts. Fining people or teams won't change that; if anything it will just end up putting even more pressure on the shoulders of the pit crews, as if they don't have enough already, leading to potentially more errors, etc.

If they truly want to stop accidents happening, then they need to analyse ways of minimising the chances of them happening, by either removing the pressure environment (e.g. minimum times etc) or coming up with failsafe (in as much as that is possible) ways of ensuring that cars cannot be released before certain conditions have been met (e.g. sensors on wheels linked to drive etc). I don't have the answer, but punishing teams is just wallpapering over the cracks and won't tackle the cause. Neither will grid drops.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by painless »

Fines, be they cash, driver points or constructor points do not remove the danger and they fuel the argument over "fairness" (see pretty much everything above).
The elements that go into an unsafe release (wheels not secure, another car exiting/entering pits) are well understood. The desire of the team to get their car out in the shortest time is also recognized.
The factors that make the consequences worse are known: "innocent" victims.
The decision to impose a penalty is much less clear and open to interpretation. It is also debatable whether or not the penalty should reflect the fact of the unsafe release or the consequences (Tyre flies off, hits no-one = slap on wrist. Tyre flies off decks half a dozen bystanders = three race ban)
I think all here can agree that the Webber wheel/cameraman incident could have resulted in a fatality (watching it live I thought it had) and that doing nothing is not a viable option. So what can be done?
Reduce the number of "targets" - severely restrict the number of non-essential people in the pitlane
Reduce the possibilities for a wheel to be poorly attached and the car to move. I know electrical and mechanical devices can fail but to add a layer of security does not make a wheel gun man less keen to perform at his best. Essentially you would need some kind of lock out in the transmission to prevent the wheels spinning unless they are all fully seated (In best Clarksonese "How difficult can it be?")
Reduce the need for pitstops (Thorny subject for the entertainment-minded lobby)
Automated pit stop machine? - a little pricey. You drive in, machine jacks up car takes off old tyres and fits new all robotically (May be EVEN FASTER than man)
Physically alter the pits themselves (catch fence screens? drive-through garages?)
Independent observer to OK release (ever seen the number of officials in a NASCAR pit area?)

Two things are clear; one, a whole load of people will not be happy with the FIA for whatever rules are formulated and two, some wally will find a way of screwing up any fail-safe system

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Biffa »

It’s all about balance, and at the moment the teams appear to be pushing too close to the limits of safety, maybe they believe that the odd mistake is a risk worth taking for super-quick stops. But introduce a harsh penalty and they will reassess where that risk-reward line lies and will no doubt manage the stops accordingly.

As I said in another thread I think this is far better than messing about with sensors, re-engineered wheelnuts and fancy release mechanisms to paste over the cracks – the teams will just have to adjust.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

Biffa wrote:It’s all about balance, and at the moment the teams appear to be pushing too close to the limits of safety, maybe they believe that the odd mistake is a risk worth taking for super-quick stops. But introduce a harsh penalty and they will reassess where that risk-reward line lies and will no doubt manage the stops accordingly.

As I said in another thread I think this is far better than messing about with sensors, re-engineered wheelnuts and fancy release mechanisms to paste over the cracks – the teams will just have to adjust.

not really, because every team will have a different interpretation of exactly where the risk/reward line lies. Fining after the fact is papering over the cracks and is at best a temporary measure as teams gradually try to push the envelope further. Tackling the root cause is the only effective way of dealing with the problem, not handing out punishments for genuine human error

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by vlad_t »

Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


They do care about wheels. The don't care about releasing in front of incoming car. They will release the car as soon as all four corners are ready. No regards for incoming cars whatsoever. Then, if release happened to be too close, they'll routinely pay laughable fine. That's why we get near-collisions in pits EVERY race. They essentially continue to race in pits with 100s of people on the "track". Crazy.

You think that would happen if fine was a cool 1 mil?

Why stop at $1M? Why not $5M? $10M? And why not ban them for 5 races while you're at it?

You can always make a punishment sufficiently draconian that teams will go completely out of their way to avoid it. In the above scenario the effect of such a crippling fine would be to make stops so slow that you could probably do an oil change and service while you're at it. Is that the aim?

But even with that, you will still get the odd individual making mistakes. It is a human thing to do. Especially in a racing environment where speed is of the utmost essence and every millisecond counts. Fining people or teams won't change that; if anything it will just end up putting even more pressure on the shoulders of the pit crews, as if they don't have enough already, leading to potentially more errors, etc.


If they truly want to stop accidents happening, then they need to analyse ways of minimising the chances of them happening, by either removing the pressure environment (e.g. minimum times etc) or coming up with failsafe (in as much as that is possible) ways of ensuring that cars cannot be released before certain conditions have been met (e.g. sensors on wheels linked to drive etc). I don't have the answer, but punishing teams is just wallpapering over the cracks and won't tackle the cause. Neither will grid drops.


I don't have the answer to all problems, but NASCAR kind of racing in a pitlane is one of those things that need to be stopped. Currently teams DO NOT give a damn about releasing cars into incoming cars. It's simply not one of their concerns. Now when pitstops are in 2.x territory - it looks like they mostly concerned about not making driver unhappy with lollypop/front jack man being slow on release.

The lack of big accident so far is just a lucky coincidence. If things go wrong, the accident can take 20 mechanics out. They job is extremely dangerous as it is. So it really should be much bigger concern than really any issue on the rest of the track. Just because of number of people endangered.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by vlad_t »

Zoue wrote:
Biffa wrote:It’s all about balance, and at the moment the teams appear to be pushing too close to the limits of safety, maybe they believe that the odd mistake is a risk worth taking for super-quick stops. But introduce a harsh penalty and they will reassess where that risk-reward line lies and will no doubt manage the stops accordingly.

As I said in another thread I think this is far better than messing about with sensors, re-engineered wheelnuts and fancy release mechanisms to paste over the cracks – the teams will just have to adjust.

not really, because every team will have a different interpretation of exactly where the risk/reward line lies. Fining after the fact is papering over the cracks and is at best a temporary measure as teams gradually try to push the envelope further. Tackling the root cause is the only effective way of dealing with the problem, not handing out punishments for genuine human error


They can do all interpretation they want, but there can be simple parameters that automatically incur fines. Like release car so it drives parallel to another car - half a mil. Release car into another car diving into next stall, no matter if they collided or not - a mil.

Of course that brings whole another can of worms - there is no set of automatic panishment mechanism in F1. Every friking case is handled differently and every punishment is different, even if case mirrors something that happened just two races ago. Like punishment/level being random and unpredictable is something they strive for...
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by vlad_t »

painless wrote:Fines, be they cash, driver points or constructor points do not remove the danger and they fuel the argument over "fairness" (see pretty much everything above).
The elements that go into an unsafe release (wheels not secure, another car exiting/entering pits) are well understood. The desire of the team to get their car out in the shortest time is also recognized.
The factors that make the consequences worse are known: "innocent" victims.
The decision to impose a penalty is much less clear and open to interpretation. It is also debatable whether or not the penalty should reflect the fact of the unsafe release or the consequences (Tyre flies off, hits no-one = slap on wrist. Tyre flies off decks half a dozen bystanders = three race ban)
I think all here can agree that the Webber wheel/cameraman incident could have resulted in a fatality (watching it live I thought it had) and that doing nothing is not a viable option. So what can be done?
Reduce the number of "targets" - severely restrict the number of non-essential people in the pitlane
Reduce the possibilities for a wheel to be poorly attached and the car to move. I know electrical and mechanical devices can fail but to add a layer of security does not make a wheel gun man less keen to perform at his best. Essentially you would need some kind of lock out in the transmission to prevent the wheels spinning unless they are all fully seated (In best Clarksonese "How difficult can it be?")
Reduce the need for pitstops (Thorny subject for the entertainment-minded lobby)
Automated pit stop machine? - a little pricey. You drive in, machine jacks up car takes off old tyres and fits new all robotically (May be EVEN FASTER than man)
Physically alter the pits themselves (catch fence screens? drive-through garages?)
Independent observer to OK release (ever seen the number of officials in a NASCAR pit area?)

Two things are clear; one, a whole load of people will not be happy with the FIA for whatever rules are formulated and two, some wally will find a way of screwing up any fail-safe system


I'd think reducing number of people in the pitlane is a good place to start. Make it four people + automated jacks on the ground + jack operator watching carefully in the garage. It'll take them significantly longer, and when pitstop is back to 10 seconds - they won't be in such a hurry over 0.1.

Hell, I just had an idea - leave it to just two people in the pitlane. On garage side. Automated jack/lift on the ground. Car drives in, guy in the garage pushes a button - car raises. Mechanics on the garage side change two wheels. Guy in the garage pushes a button. Car rotates. Antoher two wheel changes. Rotate the car again, release. In this case if something happens - there is very few people around to get hurt. But of course, in this case it's not much more work to just make the whole thing automatic, so nobody has to stand 1 feet from the f1 cars going 80 kph.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by feric »

Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


Exactly, accidents can be avoided if you do it properly and if you give both the team's drivers a grid penalty they will fix the problems themselves. It might also help if there was more than one nut holding the Wheel on (four or five should do it), and if they still can't get that right the wheel should not fall off.
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

vlad_t wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Biffa wrote:It’s all about balance, and at the moment the teams appear to be pushing too close to the limits of safety, maybe they believe that the odd mistake is a risk worth taking for super-quick stops. But introduce a harsh penalty and they will reassess where that risk-reward line lies and will no doubt manage the stops accordingly.

As I said in another thread I think this is far better than messing about with sensors, re-engineered wheelnuts and fancy release mechanisms to paste over the cracks – the teams will just have to adjust.

not really, because every team will have a different interpretation of exactly where the risk/reward line lies. Fining after the fact is papering over the cracks and is at best a temporary measure as teams gradually try to push the envelope further. Tackling the root cause is the only effective way of dealing with the problem, not handing out punishments for genuine human error


They can do all interpretation they want, but there can be simple parameters that automatically incur fines. Like release car so it drives parallel to another car - half a mil. Release car into another car diving into next stall, no matter if they collided or not - a mil.

Of course that brings whole another can of worms - there is no set of automatic panishment mechanism in F1. Every friking case is handled differently and every punishment is different, even if case mirrors something that happened just two races ago. Like punishment/level being random and unpredictable is something they strive for...

But that approach doesn't really solve the problem, since nothing has really changed. It's a short term solution at best. All fines do is make the FIA rich, but they don't really prevent any repeat situation. After all, drivers get fined for speeding in the pit lane but it doesn't stop them doing it occasionally. So can one really argue that the fines are an effective deterrent?

And once again, penalising a driver for a mechanic fumbling a wheel under pressure doesn't really seem to be a satisfactory solution IMO. Surely it's far better to collectively tackle the causes of the mistakes than to hand out penalties which affect the outcome of a following race? Who wins there?

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

feric wrote:
Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


Exactly, accidents can be avoided if you do it properly and if you give both the team's drivers a grid penalty they will fix the problems themselves. It might also help if there was more than one nut holding the Wheel on (four or five should do it), and if they still can't get that right the wheel should not fall off.

No I don't agree that will be the case. And both drivers for one incident? Wow :(

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by moby »

I think it needs to be divided into two (or more) categories and re examined as that.

I see a distinct difference between unsafe release of a car and releasing an unsafe car.

It would be relatively easy to install a system that gave an allow/disallow signal to release as they are timed and positioned to the 1000th of a second and are all doing the same speed in the pitlane. I think each pit is currently given a virtual mark where it is safe to release before an approaching car but left to the pit boss. A red/green light could remove any doubt from this.

Releasing an unsafe car is far more difficult to fence off. If the engineer looks at body damage and decides it is safe to let it continue, and it later flies off for instance? A wheel that is insecure when the car is released must be treated as an offense in its own right. I think there is a good case to disqualify a car that loses a wheel on the lap following a stop (unless there is an accident of course)

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Juzzy82 »

hittheapex wrote:One thing is clear, fines are meaningless, but agree with several comments posted already that call into question the grid penalties. Give the drivers bigger mirrors or don't make them liable for dangerous pit stops.

WCC points docked makes sense, but only if they find some way of making it consistent. If they only dock the points when there is an actual collision in the pits, it will be tempting for teams to take the chance just in case the driver behind manages to take avoiding action. Brundle had a good idea about painting lines in the pit lane, and if another car is past that line when a team releases their car, they get a penalty. Easy to monitor and implement. Few pots of paint and some cameras. Teams sloppiness should not be overlooked because of other drivers quick reactions, as it has been in the past. It is the "close the door after the horse has bolted" mentality.


Even then, what counts as a "release" - when the car starts rolling, when the lollipop man tells the driver to go, etc? The painted line idea assumes that both cars take-off and enter the pits at a set speed which often isn't the case and could still cause accidents depending on how slow or fast each car is going.

feric
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by feric »

Zoue wrote:
feric wrote:
Zoue wrote:
vlad_t wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:No. Anything dangerous should be met with sporting penalties to discourage it from happening again.

Fines just aren't a deterrent.


Fines are a deterrent. Just the right fines. Fining an F1 team $50k or something - is like fining me $20. I simply do not care about amount like that once in a while...

Right now teams do not care about penalties. They simply release the car ASAP, with no concern about incoming cars, etc. You fine them a million for each unsafe relese, and the'll start to care real soon and will come up with procedures for that.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


Exactly, accidents can be avoided if you do it properly and if you give both the team's drivers a grid penalty they will fix the problems themselves. It might also help if there was more than one nut holding the Wheel on (four or five should do it), and if they still can't get that right the wheel should not fall off.

No I don't agree that will be the case. And both drivers for one incident? Wow :(


The best to get them focussed is to make them focus. If the releases are that dangerous why give them some silly fine when you can really make them pay attention. You wouldn't need to do it for long.

And do pay attention to what is written below.
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maxtnt
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by maxtnt »

what the hell this could decide the championships

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RacingFan1
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by RacingFan1 »

That's completely unfair for the driver.

I'd say increase the fine for the team up to 500% or something.

Just imagine poor Webber being given a poor pitstop with a loose tyre and also being given a grid penalty and all of this by doing nothing wrong.

bimmeric
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by bimmeric »

It's a stupid idea because it won't have any effect.

Does anyone actually think that a pitcrew will take an extra tenth or two more than they do now to ensure the tire is attached? There already is in an incentive not to release the car with the tire not attached (most likely DNF, or super long stop like in Webber's case), an extra punishment on top won't actively prevent it from happening just punish it twice when it does.

Zoue
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

feric wrote:
Zoue wrote:
feric wrote:
Zoue wrote:I think that's a bit simplistic. Teams do care, if only for the fact that by sending a driver out with three wheels they have compromised his entire race anyway.

I agree with others that fines will not make the slightest bit of difference. Accidents will always happen in a sport where speed is a priority. And human error will mess up the best laid plans. The only way to stop accidents altogether is to put a layer of checks in before release, but this will severely compromise speed and make pit stops something to be avoided.

The fines are a sop to public opinion IMO, nothing more


Exactly, accidents can be avoided if you do it properly and if you give both the team's drivers a grid penalty they will fix the problems themselves. It might also help if there was more than one nut holding the Wheel on (four or five should do it), and if they still can't get that right the wheel should not fall off.

No I don't agree that will be the case. And both drivers for one incident? Wow :(


The best to get them focussed is to make them focus. If the releases are that dangerous why give them some silly fine when you can really make them pay attention. You wouldn't need to do it for long.

And do pay attention to what is written below.

thanks for the condescending remark, but I didn't think what was written below was relevant. I was commenting on the punishment aspects you were advocating, which I thought were extreme

beanchimp
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by beanchimp »

I think I have changed my mind now and it is fair to punish the Team and that includes the driver

Reason is, whenever anyone has ever gone on about Drivers, we are constantly told it is a team sport, and the individual drivers are insignificant. So much so that for many years team orders were banned much to the annoyance of the teams (especially after being punished for 'team order implementation' so the FIA dropped the ban and stated that Team Orders are now fine because it is actually a Team

So by the same token if the 'team' makes a mistake, then it is the 'team' that get the penalty

How many times does a driver make a mistake and the team get penalised through no fault of their own

JohnnyGuitar
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by JohnnyGuitar »

This tweet from F1 photographer Darren Heath caught my eye this morning:

Interesting to see every #F1 team pit stop practicing this #HungarianGP am except the team that needs to!


No prizes for guessing which team he was referring to!

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Biffa
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Biffa »

Zoue wrote:
Biffa wrote:It’s all about balance, and at the moment the teams appear to be pushing too close to the limits of safety, maybe they believe that the odd mistake is a risk worth taking for super-quick stops. But introduce a harsh penalty and they will reassess where that risk-reward line lies and will no doubt manage the stops accordingly.

As I said in another thread I think this is far better than messing about with sensors, re-engineered wheelnuts and fancy release mechanisms to paste over the cracks – the teams will just have to adjust.

not really, because every team will have a different interpretation of exactly where the risk/reward line lies. Fining after the fact is papering over the cracks and is at best a temporary measure as teams gradually try to push the envelope further. Tackling the root cause is the only effective way of dealing with the problem, not handing out punishments for genuine human error


Yes of course every team will have a different interpretation of where the line lies, but some teams step too close to the line to shave a few tenths - that is the problem, which is presumably what the penalty aims to address.

But yes I do agree with you that fining a team after the event is not good enough and I am not advocating a fine but rather a stiff penalty (which won’t be ‘after the fact' when they know before-hand the penalty is in place as a deterrent).

As far as tackling the root cause…..if the stops are dangerous because they are too quick then tackling the root cause is not achieved by allowing them to just carry on regardless but stick a gizmo somewhere in the process to hopefully stop accidents. No you stop the teams by making it very disadvantageous for them to do something dangerous in the first place and they will adjust.

Zoue
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

Biffa wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Biffa wrote:It’s all about balance, and at the moment the teams appear to be pushing too close to the limits of safety, maybe they believe that the odd mistake is a risk worth taking for super-quick stops. But introduce a harsh penalty and they will reassess where that risk-reward line lies and will no doubt manage the stops accordingly.

As I said in another thread I think this is far better than messing about with sensors, re-engineered wheelnuts and fancy release mechanisms to paste over the cracks – the teams will just have to adjust.

not really, because every team will have a different interpretation of exactly where the risk/reward line lies. Fining after the fact is papering over the cracks and is at best a temporary measure as teams gradually try to push the envelope further. Tackling the root cause is the only effective way of dealing with the problem, not handing out punishments for genuine human error


Yes of course every team will have a different interpretation of where the line lies, but some teams step too close to the line to shave a few tenths - that is the problem, which is presumably what the penalty aims to address.

But yes I do agree with you that fining a team after the event is not good enough and I am not advocating a fine but rather a stiff penalty (which won’t be ‘after the fact' when they know before-hand the penalty is in place as a deterrent).

As far as tackling the root cause…..if the stops are dangerous because they are too quick then tackling the root cause is not achieved by allowing them to just carry on regardless but stick a gizmo somewhere in the process to hopefully stop accidents. No you stop the teams by making it very disadvantageous for them to do something dangerous in the first place and they will adjust.

I do understand your point. I guess we're just tackling it from different ends. I'd like to see an effort by the FIA to reduce the ability of individuals to make an error, rather than put the fear of god into them if they do. There's only so much care an individual can take when speed is of the essence, and as we've seen from the past even when pit stops were longer (e.g,. when refuelling) mistakes were still made when wheel nuts got stuck etc.

I don't have the answer, but it can't be beyond the wit of these guys to come up with either different wheel locking mechanisms or pit procedures to reduce the risk of human error. And that would probably have to be mandated / directed by the FIA because if one team comes up with a solution that causes, say, a couple of extra second's delay in the pits, then which team is going to do that if their rivals don't? IMO that's what the FIA should be investigating, rather than penalties which won't really change much overall apart from affect the results of the next race.

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moby
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by moby »

No amount of cash fines will have any effect at all. As with speeding and parking tickets on the road, it just becomes another running expense and will b factored in and written off as consumables.

There has to be a weight added, as with points for speeding, that can not just be paid and forgotten.

What about extending the drivers points system that is being brought in?

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by RacingFan1 »

moby wrote:No amount of cash fines will have any effect at all. As with speeding and parking tickets on the road, it just becomes another running expense and will b factored in and written off as consumables.

There has to be a weight added, as with points for speeding, that can not just be paid and forgotten.

What about extending the drivers points system that is being brought in?

Don't agree, fine a team with something like 1 million euros and I think they will make sure they do proper pitstops everytime.

Zoue
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by Zoue »

RacingFan1 wrote:
moby wrote:No amount of cash fines will have any effect at all. As with speeding and parking tickets on the road, it just becomes another running expense and will b factored in and written off as consumables.

There has to be a weight added, as with points for speeding, that can not just be paid and forgotten.

What about extending the drivers points system that is being brought in?

Don't agree, fine a team with something like 1 million euros and I think they will make sure they do proper pitstops everytime.

somewhat disproportionate to other fines and punishments. Doubt the teams would accept such an idea

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by RacingFan1 »

Zoue wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
moby wrote:No amount of cash fines will have any effect at all. As with speeding and parking tickets on the road, it just becomes another running expense and will b factored in and written off as consumables.

There has to be a weight added, as with points for speeding, that can not just be paid and forgotten.

What about extending the drivers points system that is being brought in?

Don't agree, fine a team with something like 1 million euros and I think they will make sure they do proper pitstops everytime.

somewhat disproportionate to other fines and punishments. Doubt the teams would accept such an idea

Still more fair than giving the driver a grid penalty, as he isn't to blame.

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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by seandean41 »

wolfticket wrote:
seandean41 wrote:This is an absolutely ludicrous penalty.

As with most everyone else here, things that are the teams fault should cost only the team.

What next? DQ for stalling on the grid?

Should driver mistakes only cost the driver?


Driver is a part of the team, however the team, is not a part of the driver. Doesn't work both ways. Your driver's chamionship standings should not be hampered by things that are clearly our of your personal control as a DRIVER.
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wolfticket
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by wolfticket »

seandean41 wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
seandean41 wrote:This is an absolutely ludicrous penalty.

As with most everyone else here, things that are the teams fault should cost only the team.

What next? DQ for stalling on the grid?

Should driver mistakes only cost the driver?


Driver is a part of the team, however the team, is not a part of the driver. Doesn't work both ways. Your driver's chamionship standings should not be hampered by things that are clearly our of your personal control as a DRIVER.

I don't see how it is possible that it works one way but not the other.

The way F1 works there are any number of things the rest of team do that outside of the drivers control that effect the driver's standing, and vice versa. F1 has always been a team sport and it is basically impossible to penalise the team without penalising the driver. Ultimately even a fine has a tiny effect on the spending power to the team, which has a tiny effect on the performance of the car, which has a tiny effect on the speed of both drivers. It's just so tiny that most teams don't see it as a real punishment.

While there is a drivers championship, it doesn't change the fact that the driver is a part of the team, and you win and lose as a team.
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beanchimp
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by beanchimp »

seandean41 wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
seandean41 wrote:This is an absolutely ludicrous penalty.

As with most everyone else here, things that are the teams fault should cost only the team.

What next? DQ for stalling on the grid?

Should driver mistakes only cost the driver?


Driver is a part of the team, however the team, is not a part of the driver. Doesn't work both ways. Your driver's chamionship standings should not be hampered by things that are clearly our of your personal control as a DRIVER.


Does that include your team mate moving over for you to gain extra points to help you win a championship, what about the driver of that same team then when he has been unfairly punished then?

Team sport, team rules, team penalty

raceman
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Re: Grid Penalty for dangerous pit stops. Too far?

Post by raceman »

IMO it is ridiculous to punish a driver for something beyond his control. This is akin to a grid drop for mechanical failures (i.e. gearbox change is a 5 place drop), which was recently discussed as being "too harsh". A better solution would be to forfeit constructor points for the driver or team as this punishes the team for a team error without interfering with the driver's standings.

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