planetf1.com

Reading twitter comments. Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:15 pm

Someone on twitter is claiming the wrong person won and that they don't care if people call him racist for that opinion. They said Rashford should have one instead!

Rashford is black......

Mmmm... Rashford won the Expert Special Panel Award. He has done nothing special of sporting achievement, No national or European titles no World or European cup. He did campaign for kids meals though and that's what he got the award for.

Hamilton on the other hand won the World Drivers Championship for a record equalling 7th time.

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:15 pm

Someone on twitter is claiming the wrong person won and that they don't care if people call him racist for that opinion. They said Rashford should have one instead!

Rashford is black......

Oh, you'd be surprised; plenty will call him racist for that opinion. Reminds me of the US open final a couple of years ago when Serena accused the umpire of being sexist for giving decisions against her, even though she was playing another woman.

Anyway, back on topic; fair play to Lewis. Can't argue it's not deserved, although I did personally vote for Fury. Glad to see Rashford get recognised too, he seems like a genuinely humble person who is willing to put his money where his mouth is, working at food banks in his spare time and petitioning the government to do something worthwhile for disadvantaged children.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Reading twitter comments. Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

Just as an aside; I don't have a problem with any driver or indeed celebrity leaving the UK for tax reasons. Hell, I'd do it if I were that rich, so it would be massively hypocritical to sit here and criticise someone like Lewis for living in Monte Carlo.

What I do take issue with is a person leaving the UK for tax reasons, then continuously lecturing everyone else on how we've got to do something to help underprivileged people in the UK. The kind of people who require the most support from the services tax is supposed to provide.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:24 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Reading twitter comments. Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

Just as an aside; I don't have a problem with any driver or indeed celebrity leaving the UK for tax reasons. Hell, I'd do it if I were that rich, so it would be massively hypocritical to sit here and criticise someone like Lewis for living in Monte Carlo.

What I do take issue with is a person leaving the UK for tax reasons, then continuously lecturing everyone else on how we've got to do something to help underprivileged people in the UK. The kind of people who require the most support from the services tax is supposed to provide.

Hamilton is in the top 5,000 of income tax payers in the UK, and travels the world and pays tax accordingly.

There is no doubt that in his early career Hamilton did do what all the other F1 drivers did - move to Monaco / Switzerland / Isle of Man and avoid the tax, have a private jet etc... but he's sold the jet and pays income tax to the UK Government.

On the other hand, Jacob Rees Moggs, for example, is resident in the UK, earns more money and pays zero tax due to having it funnelled through the Cayman Islands.

Ah. What an unfortunate result for Tyson Fury. He was hoping to not see an official vote reveal to him how he isn't quite the People's Champion after all. LOL.

(And I'll be rooting for Fury vs Joshua when it happens.)

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:24 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Reading twitter comments. Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

Just as an aside; I don't have a problem with any driver or indeed celebrity leaving the UK for tax reasons. Hell, I'd do it if I were that rich, so it would be massively hypocritical to sit here and criticise someone like Lewis for living in Monte Carlo.

What I do take issue with is a person leaving the UK for tax reasons, then continuously lecturing everyone else on how we've got to do something to help underprivileged people in the UK. The kind of people who require the most support from the services tax is supposed to provide.

Hamilton does pay a lot of tax in the UK though. Buying the private jet with money going through the Isle of Man to avoid VAT was worse but I doubt Hamilton actually was aware of what was happening. He probably just has someone who deals with all that kind of thing for him.

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:08 am

Ah. What an unfortunate result for Tyson Fury. He was hoping to not see an official vote reveal to him how he isn't quite the People's Champion after all. LOL.

(And I'll be rooting for Fury vs Joshua when it happens.)

Basically the opposite for me. As much of a kn*b head as Fury can be, and he has said some unsavoury stuff in the last, I do respect him for battling his demons and fighting against his alcohol and drug abuse and depression. However if we do see a fight with Joshua, I’ll be 100% team AJ.

Back on Lewis, obviously he does pay some tax in the UK but he has also clearly avoided quite a lot across his whole career. If you’re going to lecture other people on an issue, you’ve got to be squeaky clean yourself.

An no, I’m not going to make any defence of JRM, who I regard as something of a caricature for the wealthy and privileged.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:02 pm

Hamilton has won BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2020.

A fabulous achievement, although I might have voted for Jordan Henderson. It was a hard choice for a Hamilton/Liverpool supporter!

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Reading twitter comments.

This was your first mistake. Never Twitter. It's lizard brain heaven.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

It's not just right wing types. I was on the Liverpool FC subreddit and the number of Scousers coming out of the woodwork calling him a tax-dodger. I had to correct them... I find that a bit rich given many of my Scouse relatives haven't worked a day after the age of 35.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:24 am

What I do take issue with is a person leaving the UK for tax reasons, then continuously lecturing everyone else on how we've got to do something to help underprivileged people in the UK. The kind of people who require the most support from the services tax is supposed to provide.

The real issue is that Britons want world class welfare state without paying for it. They think they can just fleece the richest 5% to pay for everything. Nobody in their right mind is going to stay here if the government is just going to take most of their stuff, it's why governments deliberately create tax loopholes so the rich can pay a "fairer" (in oligarch's opinion) tax contribution.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Reading twitter comments. Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

Unfortunately he's always been targeted above others for some reason.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:24 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm

Reading twitter comments. Interesting how so many right wing types seem to have socialist values when a black man has used perfectly legal tax avoidance to reduce his tax burden.

Just as an aside; I don't have a problem with any driver or indeed celebrity leaving the UK for tax reasons. Hell, I'd do it if I were that rich, so it would be massively hypocritical to sit here and criticise someone like Lewis for living in Monte Carlo.

What I do take issue with is a person leaving the UK for tax reasons, then continuously lecturing everyone else on how we've got to do something to help underprivileged people in the UK. The kind of people who require the most support from the services tax is supposed to provide.

I'm sure I heard somewhere that Hamilton is among either the top 500 or top 5000 UK tax payers.

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:08 am

Ah. What an unfortunate result for Tyson Fury. He was hoping to not see an official vote reveal to him how he isn't quite the People's Champion after all. LOL.

(And I'll be rooting for Fury vs Joshua when it happens.)

Do you think that's why he did it, interesting take, I never thought of that.

Regarding the fight they're both brits so for me may the best man win, as a prediction I would go for Fury, he's bigger and more skilled.

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

This result is excellent, if only for the racist idiots on social media throwing their toys out of their prams in record numbers.

You love to see it.

+1

pokerman wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:12 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:08 am

Ah. What an unfortunate result for Tyson Fury. He was hoping to not see an official vote reveal to him how he isn't quite the People's Champion after all. LOL.

(And I'll be rooting for Fury vs Joshua when it happens.)

Do you think that's why he did it, interesting take, I never thought of that.

Regarding the fight they're both brits so for me may the best man win, as a prediction I would go for Fury, he's bigger and more skilled.

I'm very sure. I've watched hour upon hour of interviews involving Tyson Fury. A big part of his bout with depression was the backlash he received from the public and since then he's often spoken up unprovoked about how he's the champion of the people. He wanted no part of some official marker of popularity, and he didn't even come out with a bronze medal.

This can be fixed as soon as he fights (and beats) AJ. Whoever wins the fight, I think they'll win SPOTY in 2021 (assuming the fight happens next year, which seems likely). Then again, Carl Davidson might have #8 by then.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

This result is excellent, if only for the racist idiots on social media throwing their toys out of their prams in record numbers.

You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Also, I'd like to start an official petition to get Lewis Hamilton to go by Carl Davidson just so we can have a different World Champion in 2021.


Who's with me...

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:18 pm

Also, I'd like to start an official petition to get Lewis Hamilton to go by Carl Davidson just so we can have a different World Champion in 2021.


Who's with me...

I'm hearing a seat has opened up at Haas. Go on Lewis, you know you want to!

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

The endgame is obvious to me! Kick racists out of the closet, identify them and apply aggressive social censure to railroad them out of respectable professions and economic opportunities.

A stupid shortsighted endgame considering the current theories of racism are both inaccessible and patronising to the majority of the population in western countries.

They will then turn against you and short of killing them en masse in a Soviet style purge (which most of the anarchist left can't contemplate) you then shore up centre-right and hard-right voter blocks with swing voters.

For me, the solution is a broad consensus and economic solutions which will disproportionately affect disadvantaged demographics and improve the lives of everybody.

Instead they play a religious game of demonisation and polarisation.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

There is definitely an element of this and wanting to feel like a victim. Social media allows pseudo-anonymous rudeness that no-one would dare say in person as they would be punched in the face.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:12 am

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:08 am

Ah. What an unfortunate result for Tyson Fury. He was hoping to not see an official vote reveal to him how he isn't quite the People's Champion after all. LOL.

(And I'll be rooting for Fury vs Joshua when it happens.)

Basically the opposite for me. As much of a kn*b head as Fury can be, and he has said some unsavoury stuff in the last, I do respect him for battling his demons and fighting against his alcohol and drug abuse and depression. However if we do see a fight with Joshua, I’ll be 100% team AJ.

Back on Lewis, obviously he does pay some tax in the UK but he has also clearly avoided quite a lot across his whole career. If you’re going to lecture other people on an issue, you’ve got to be squeaky clean yourself.

An no, I’m not going to make any defence of JRM, who I regard as something of a caricature for the wealthy and privileged.

People have put Fury's vile past comments down to depression, but I honestly think it came from his father. John Fury is very dogmatic in his religious beliefs and is clearly extremely bigoted. I always give boxers a bit more leeway when it comes to stupid comments though seeing as they get punched in the head for a living.

What a great ending for a very weird year for the champ. He did deserve it, for his actions on and off the track. I didn't agree with his methods, but his heart is in the right place. I'm not even going to talk about achievements, the numbers talk themselves.

I will admit that I always find it funny when F1 drivers participate/win (same for the superbikes). To me it sounds like they should not be eligible: "the recipient must either be British or reside and play a significant amount of their sport in the United Kingdom". 1 out of 20 races is not a significant amount of the sport in the UK. Semantics of course, but always makes me giggle.

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:12 am

I will admit that I always find it funny when F1 drivers participate/win (same for the superbikes). To me it sounds like they should not be eligible: "the recipient must either be British or reside and play a significant amount of their sport in the United Kingdom". 1 out of 20 races is not a significant amount of the sport in the UK. Semantics of course, but always makes me giggle.

That's an 'or', not an 'and'. Hamilton is British.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:25 am

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:12 am

I will admit that I always find it funny when F1 drivers participate/win (same for the superbikes). To me it sounds like they should not be eligible: "the recipient must either be British or reside and play a significant amount of their sport in the United Kingdom". 1 out of 20 races is not a significant amount of the sport in the UK. Semantics of course, but always makes me giggle.

That's an 'or', not an 'and'. Hamilton is British.

Yeah, I misread that. Thanks!

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:12 am

What a great ending for a very weird year for the champ. He did deserve it, for his actions on and off the track. I didn't agree with his methods, but his heart is in the right place. I'm not even going to talk about achievements, the numbers talk themselves.

I will admit that I always find it funny when F1 drivers participate/win (same for the superbikes). To me it sounds like they should not be eligible: "the recipient must either be British or reside and play a significant amount of their sport in the United Kingdom". 1 out of 20 races is not a significant amount of the sport in the UK. Semantics of course, but always makes me giggle.

Surely it's more significant to be a world champion than a national champion, it would also rule out all the Olympians who win their medals on a world stage unless I'm missing the context of what was said.

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:29 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:18 pm

Also, I'd like to start an official petition to get Lewis Hamilton to go by Carl Davidson just so we can have a different World Champion in 2021.


Who's with me...

I'm hearing a seat has opened up at Haas. Go on Lewis, you know you want to!

Please don't! I'm still recovering from when some thought Schumacher would win races in a Minardi.

Fiki wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:12 pm

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:29 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:18 pm

Also, I'd like to start an official petition to get Lewis Hamilton to go by Carl Davidson just so we can have a different World Champion in 2021.


Who's with me...

I'm hearing a seat has opened up at Haas. Go on Lewis, you know you want to!

Please don't! I'm still recovering from when some thought Schumacher would win races in a Minardi.

Nah, Hamilton won't pull a Fittipaldi, he's cleverer than that!

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

This result is excellent, if only for the racist idiots on social media throwing their toys out of their prams in record numbers.

You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

This result is excellent, if only for the racist idiots on social media throwing their toys out of their prams in record numbers.

You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I don't buy the racist angle myself either (not that it doesn't happen), where were the racist idiots throwing toys out of the pram when Mo Farah won a few years ago?

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:54 pm

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!



You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I don't buy the racist angle myself either (not that it doesn't happen), where were the racist idiots throwing toys out of the pram when Mo Farah won a few years ago?

Here's a couple I found after about 15 seconds of searching, which given how long ago it was, I was expecting it to be harder:

https://twitter.com/jordanvine1/status/ ... 7285089282
https://twitter.com/dirtybraces/status/ ... 2782729217

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:40 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:54 pm

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I don't buy the racist angle myself either (not that it doesn't happen), where were the racist idiots throwing toys out of the pram when Mo Farah won a few years ago?

Here's a couple I found after about 15 seconds of searching, which given how long ago it was, I was expecting it to be harder:

https://twitter.com/jordanvine1/status/ ... 7285089282
https://twitter.com/dirtybraces/status/ ... 2782729217

Yes, I found some others in a matter of seconds too.

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable.

Only because everybody involved is talking at cross purposes. It's about pwning your opponents rather than having a meaningful discussion. Twitter became intolerable because I try to build consensus and be pragmatic and I ended up in no-man's land being shot at from everywhere.

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

There is a rather fickle irony in you calling a superficial solution like the Hamilton Commission the most constructive given BLM has been highlighting the multi-factoral causes of BAME under-representation. These communities are poorer due to a combination of historical colonialism and racism which forced them into insular communities. They then succumbed to the downward spiral within all poor communities of being overworked, underpaid, domestic and community violence (including police and judicial violence), mental health problems, drug misuse, alcohol misuse which massively impacts educational outcomes.

The people who escape poverty traps like that in the vast majority of cases have both worked far harder than their white British counterparts and have been far luckier.

The only long term solution would be to invest heavily in poorer communities (regardless of demographics) with a focus on education. However, there is a broad reluctance for this as it would disproportionately benefit BAME people so called "reverse racism". Sadly, Liz Truss is charging headfirst for the latter.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:40 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:54 pm

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I don't buy the racist angle myself either (not that it doesn't happen), where were the racist idiots throwing toys out of the pram when Mo Farah won a few years ago?

Here's a couple I found after about 15 seconds of searching, which given how long ago it was, I was expecting it to be harder:

https://twitter.com/jordanvine1/status/ ... 7285089282
https://twitter.com/dirtybraces/status/ ... 2782729217

This is why I wrote that in the brackets. Of course you'll always have some idiots ranting on Twitter without knowledge; for example the twitt about him not even living in the UK is not valid in my view, as he used to live in the US as part of his training. Ranters will rant, he got abused for wishing Merry Christmas to everyone that year, nothing shocking there.

The whole idea is that I would expect someone with some basic logic and understanding to be able to distinguish between some few bigots that nowadays get their opinions voiced through the social media and generalisations like Asphalt's statement. Asphalt being a member that I really do value in here even if we have locked horns in the past, just to be clear.

So, while I'm kind of happy that you felt compelled to do some research on this, do you agree or not with what was said before my post? That's the point and not the quantity of Mo Farah's detractors

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

This result is excellent, if only for the racist idiots on social media throwing their toys out of their prams in record numbers.

You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

I think you're reading too much into it. Firstly, I was in agreement that Hamilton deserved the award, and secondly, it's also a big F you to those who may have used racist slurs while attempting to discredit Hamilton's achievements (Note, I've not been on Twitter myself, but understand the viewpoints taken by AW and JN).

I've read recently that the Snooker player guy didn't think Hamilton deserved to win because he considered F1 to be too easy, which is just laughable at best. So when these guys get the result they don't want, I don't see why some of us should have to hold back our amusement of their displaced anger.

And I really fail to see how we are childishly sniping and as a consequence of that think we are morally superior. It's not nice to see any racist backlash, but it's nice that those who may have been racist previously now have to swallow the fact that their most hated sportsman won the competition.

Twitter cannot be the gauge for judging society. Literally anyone can post literally anything, anonymously and without reprisal. Finding racism on twitter is like finding an example of murder somewhere in the world. Of course you're going to find it, it's a default level at the bottom of society. It's like going to the sex offenders wing of a prison and proclaiming yourself better than all the pedophiles. Well great, what's your point, do you want a medal?

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:40 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:54 pm

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I don't buy the racist angle myself either (not that it doesn't happen), where were the racist idiots throwing toys out of the pram when Mo Farah won a few years ago?

Here's a couple I found after about 15 seconds of searching, which given how long ago it was, I was expecting it to be harder:

https://twitter.com/jordanvine1/status/ ... 7285089282
https://twitter.com/dirtybraces/status/ ... 2782729217

This is why I wrote that in the brackets. Of course you'll always have some idiots ranting on Twitter without knowledge; for example the twitt about him not even living in the UK is not valid in my view, as he used to live in the US as part of his training. Ranters will rant, he got abused for wishing Merry Christmas to everyone that year, nothing shocking there.

The whole idea is that I would expect someone with some basic logic and understanding to be able to distinguish between some few bigots that nowadays get their opinions voiced through the social media and generalisations like Asphalt's statement. Asphalt being a member that I really do value in here even if we have locked horns in the past, just to be clear.

So, while I'm kind of happy that you felt compelled to do some research on this, do you agree or not with what was said before my post? That's the point and not the quantity of Mo Farah's detractors

You used weasel words to try and imply that racism is not a factor in the backlash against Hamilton. Your part in parenthesis followed the part about it not being a racist angle, NOT the part about there not being any racism towards Mo Farah. That is an attempt to try and justify the argument that racism is not the predominant issue with Hamilton, by setting the narrative it didn't happen with Mo Farah.

Mo Farah won Sports Personality of the year three years ago, so the social media discourse is completely forgotten. If a statement of 'where was the racism with Mo Farah' is made, that implies that - factually - there was no racism to most reading the statement. Searching tweets from 2017 is a very difficult thing to do, as Twitter gives prominence to current activity in its search engine as the whole platform is about 'now' - in order to find those tweets I had to think of search terms that would very specifically bring up racist moaning from 3 years ago.

Was there as much moaning about Mo Farah as there is about Hamilton? No, and it would have been much smaller. Were all of the people annoyed about Hamilton winning annoyed because they are racist? No, there are many who don't like Formula 1, don't consider motor racing a sport etc etc. However, Hamilton is far more high profile than Mo Farah, Mo Farah is far less outspoken on issues surrounding racism than Hamilton is. Hamilton's award also came during the year of Black Lives Matter. Had the BLM incidences from 2020 happened in 2017, I am certain that there would have been far more complaining on social media about Farah's win, even though he is not as a vocal about the problems black people face in Britain.

There is no doubt that Hamilton's activism contributes to the people complaining on social media, but just because there are many who dislike his win for other reasons (I mean, whoever would have won would have had a ton of naysayers) doesn't mean that racism isn't the root cause for a majority of the excess to the norm.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:41 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!

Asphalt_World wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:07 pm

This result is excellent, if only for the racist idiots on social media throwing their toys out of their prams in record numbers.

You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

I think you're reading too much into it. Firstly, I was in agreement that Hamilton deserved the award, and secondly, it's also a big F you to those who may have used racist slurs while attempting to discredit Hamilton's achievements (Note, I've not been on Twitter myself, but understand the viewpoints taken by AW and JN).

I've read recently that the Snooker player guy didn't think Hamilton deserved to win because he considered F1 to be too easy, which is just laughable at best. So when these guys get the result they don't want, I don't see why some of us should have to hold back our amusement of their displaced anger.

And I really fail to see how we are childishly sniping and as a consequence of that think we are morally superior. It's not nice to see any racist backlash, but it's nice that those who may have been racist previously now have to swallow the fact that their most hated sportsman won the competition.

Bit off topic, but this is not exactly what he said. He said that F1 is not a level playing field, he felt that Hamilton having the best car in the field had an advantage. While other sports rely purely on the skills of the athletes, F1 is the combination of skill and machinery. Of course this happens to other sports and it is much more behind it, but he has at least backed his opinion and didn't just spout drivel

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:45 pm

Twitter cannot be the gauge for judging society. Literally anyone can post literally anything, anonymously and without reprisal. Finding racism on twitter is like finding an example of murder somewhere in the world. Of course you're going to find it, it's a default level at the bottom of society. It's like going to the sex offenders wing of a prison and proclaiming yourself better than all the pedophiles. Well great, what's your point, do you want a medal?

I honestly fail to see what your point is.

Can we not celebrate the fact that an F1 driver, who has been an activist for BLM this year, has achieved recognition by the public as the SPOTY? It shows that the majority of the UK have voted for a driver that they believe deserved such a title, and that the racists, the anti-F1 fans, etc represent a small minority. I think it's a success story for a lot of reasons.

People can complain all the like on social media, but we know they just represent a small, loud minority. The fact their complaints are empty and not representative of society should be something to celebrate.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:08 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:45 pm

Twitter cannot be the gauge for judging society. Literally anyone can post literally anything, anonymously and without reprisal. Finding racism on twitter is like finding an example of murder somewhere in the world. Of course you're going to find it, it's a default level at the bottom of society. It's like going to the sex offenders wing of a prison and proclaiming yourself better than all the pedophiles. Well great, what's your point, do you want a medal?

I honestly fail to see what your point is.

Can we not celebrate the fact that an F1 driver, who has been an activist for BLM this year, has achieved recognition by the public as the SPOTY? It shows that the majority of the UK have voted for a driver that they believe deserved such a title, and that the racists, the anti-F1 fans, etc represent a small minority. I think it's a success story for a lot of reasons.

People can complain all the like on social media, but we know they just represent a small, loud minority. The fact their complaints are empty and not representative of society should be something to celebrate.

My point is basically your last paragraph, racist abuse on Twitter should basically be ignored. It's worthless, meaningless and could be posted by anyone in any country. It wasn't a comment on Lewis' achievements at all.

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:01 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:41 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

JN23 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Well done to Lewis, absolutely deserved!



You love to see it.

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

I think you're reading too much into it. Firstly, I was in agreement that Hamilton deserved the award, and secondly, it's also a big F you to those who may have used racist slurs while attempting to discredit Hamilton's achievements (Note, I've not been on Twitter myself, but understand the viewpoints taken by AW and JN).

I've read recently that the Snooker player guy didn't think Hamilton deserved to win because he considered F1 to be too easy, which is just laughable at best. So when these guys get the result they don't want, I don't see why some of us should have to hold back our amusement of their displaced anger.

And I really fail to see how we are childishly sniping and as a consequence of that think we are morally superior. It's not nice to see any racist backlash, but it's nice that those who may have been racist previously now have to swallow the fact that their most hated sportsman won the competition.

Bit off topic, but this is not exactly what he said. He said that F1 is not a level playing field, he felt that Hamilton having the best car in the field had an advantage. While other sports rely purely on the skills of the athletes, F1 is the combination of skill and machinery. Of course this happens to other sports and it is much more behind it, but he has at least backed his opinion and didn't just spout drivel

That's true, but it's also a huge over-simplification. For anyone to think that F1 drivers don't deserve recognition for achievement because it's man and machine clearly doesn't understand the underlying mechanics of the sport. F1 drivers don't win because of their car, they win because they had the talent to demonstrate they should be in the top car (Oh and also win against other top drivers, sometimes in equal or better machinery than them).

He also compared it to smoking a cigarette and one hand on the wheel. As an F1 fan, I just think that's a bit insulting.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:55 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:40 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:54 pm

j man wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Well said. The quality of debate around this sort of thing is utterly lamentable. Now I haven't read any of the comments being referenced (outside of this forum I personally don't use social media as it's mostly poisonous drivel), but I struggle to believe this idea that there are swathes of people expressing their disgust at a black person winning SPOTY. Or is this based on an assumption that anyone who disagrees with Lewis winning it must be a racist?

Anyway a well deserved award for Lewis, he got my vote as well. Not just for his sporting achievements, but for some of his off-track actions too. The Hamilton Commission that he set up this year to encourage more black children into STEM subjects is perhaps the single most constructive action that has come out of the 2020 BLM movement, and as someone who works in engineering and can see with my own eyes the under-representation of black people in the field I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it.

I don't buy the racist angle myself either (not that it doesn't happen), where were the racist idiots throwing toys out of the pram when Mo Farah won a few years ago?

Here's a couple I found after about 15 seconds of searching, which given how long ago it was, I was expecting it to be harder:

https://twitter.com/jordanvine1/status/ ... 7285089282
https://twitter.com/dirtybraces/status/ ... 2782729217

This is why I wrote that in the brackets. Of course you'll always have some idiots ranting on Twitter without knowledge; for example the twitt about him not even living in the UK is not valid in my view, as he used to live in the US as part of his training. Ranters will rant, he got abused for wishing Merry Christmas to everyone that year, nothing shocking there.

The whole idea is that I would expect someone with some basic logic and understanding to be able to distinguish between some few bigots that nowadays get their opinions voiced through the social media and generalisations like Asphalt's statement. Asphalt being a member that I really do value in here even if we have locked horns in the past, just to be clear.

So, while I'm kind of happy that you felt compelled to do some research on this, do you agree or not with what was said before my post? That's the point and not the quantity of Mo Farah's detractors

You used weasel words to try and imply that racism is not a factor in the backlash against Hamilton. Your part in parenthesis followed the part about it not being a racist angle, NOT the part about there not being any racism towards Mo Farah. That is an attempt to try and justify the argument that racism is not the predominant issue with Hamilton, by setting the narrative it didn't happen with Mo Farah.

Mo Farah won Sports Personality of the year three years ago, so the social media discourse is completely forgotten. If a statement of 'where was the racism with Mo Farah' is made, that implies that - factually - there was no racism to most reading the statement. Searching tweets from 2017 is a very difficult thing to do, as Twitter gives prominence to current activity in its search engine as the whole platform is about 'now' - in order to find those tweets I had to think of search terms that would very specifically bring up racist moaning from 3 years ago.

Was there as much moaning about Mo Farah as there is about Hamilton? No, and it would have been much smaller. Were all of the people annoyed about Hamilton winning annoyed because they are racist? No, there are many who don't like Formula 1, don't consider motor racing a sport etc etc. However, Hamilton is far more high profile than Mo Farah, Mo Farah is far less outspoken on issues surrounding racism than Hamilton is. Hamilton's award also came during the year of Black Lives Matter. Had the BLM incidences from 2020 happened in 2017, I am certain that there would have been far more complaining on social media about Farah's win, even though he is not as a vocal about the problems black people face in Britain.

There is no doubt that Hamilton's activism contributes to the people complaining on social media, but just because there are many who dislike his win for other reasons (I mean, whoever would have won would have had a ton of naysayers) doesn't mean that racism isn't the root cause for a majority of the excess to the norm.

Weasel words? I had to google that! Haha, no, I can assure you that I didn't do that (avoiding to be fortright), at least not on purpose. I agree with most things in your post above actually.

What I wanted to say (perhap with different words) is that not everyone who disagreed with Mo Farah or Lewis Hamilton getting the award is a racist idiot. The examples you brought up about Farah talked about him being born in another country and residing in another country, they didn't talk about his skin colour. Similarly with Hamilton. So no, calling people racists for not agreeing with Hamilton getting the award feels like painting everyone with a very broad brush.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:19 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:01 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:41 pm

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:13 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:25 pm

+1

I really dislike this kind of attitude; all it does for me is confirm that some people care more about point scoring and getting one over against ‘the other side’ of their viewpoint. Is that seriously what you guys all want; to see racists get as angry as possible? What do you all think an angry racist is going to do? What’s the end game here, you get all the racists as angry as possible and then.... suddenly they just become tolerant?

Whatever your views on the situation, I can’t stand the idea that people think this kind of childish sniping is somehow morally superior. Don’t kid yourselves, what you’re implying is that you WANT more racist abuse so you can all be sanctimonious about it.

I think you're reading too much into it. Firstly, I was in agreement that Hamilton deserved the award, and secondly, it's also a big F you to those who may have used racist slurs while attempting to discredit Hamilton's achievements (Note, I've not been on Twitter myself, but understand the viewpoints taken by AW and JN).

I've read recently that the Snooker player guy didn't think Hamilton deserved to win because he considered F1 to be too easy, which is just laughable at best. So when these guys get the result they don't want, I don't see why some of us should have to hold back our amusement of their displaced anger.

And I really fail to see how we are childishly sniping and as a consequence of that think we are morally superior. It's not nice to see any racist backlash, but it's nice that those who may have been racist previously now have to swallow the fact that their most hated sportsman won the competition.

Bit off topic, but this is not exactly what he said. He said that F1 is not a level playing field, he felt that Hamilton having the best car in the field had an advantage. While other sports rely purely on the skills of the athletes, F1 is the combination of skill and machinery. Of course this happens to other sports and it is much more behind it, but he has at least backed his opinion and didn't just spout drivel

That's true, but it's also a huge over-simplification. For anyone to think that F1 drivers don't deserve recognition for achievement because it's man and machine clearly doesn't understand the underlying mechanics of the sport. F1 drivers don't win because of their car, they win because they had the talent to demonstrate they should be in the top car (Oh and also win against other top drivers, sometimes in equal or better machinery than them).

He also compared it to smoking a cigarette and one hand on the wheel. As an F1 fan, I just think that's a bit insulting.

Of course it is an over-simplification. The opposite is also true; people think that say football is just 11 vs 11 with just talent on the field, ignoring that a bigger team has better facilities, personnel, doctors, etc. It is not easy to have a level playing field.

As for his last comment, I think from his point of view it feels like THAT kind of advantage. But it was his own, humorous way of saying it.