The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

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Banana Man
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Banana Man »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:17 am
Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:51 am
You’re kidding right? I mean... The West Indies, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, South Africa....
Sorry, I look very stupid...

I meant much diversity in the England team. We've had a handful of players from ethnic minority backgrounds but not very many. Not to mention they get treated much more harshly when they don't perform.
I don’t agree with any of that either. The population of the UK is 86% white, so in a team of 11 players you’d expect either 9 or 10 of them to be white. Depending on which discipline you watch, there’s often Archer, Rashid, Jordan and Moeen Ali in the squad.

The last sentence is pure conjecture too, you have no way of quantifying that. When the whole Pietersen/Cook/testing saga was going on it caused a huge media stink which one for ages and was detrimental to the team.
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F1Tyrant
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:34 am
The population of the UK is 86% white, so in a team of 11 players you’d expect either 9 or 10 of them to be white.
I actually looked this up to prove you wrong but you were actually vindicated. Of England Test caps since 1990, 21 out of 153 have been BAME players (13.7%).

So as a proportion of the population its about right but one could argue that there are structural barrier to entry that disproportionately affect BAME people who tend to live in urban enviornments with more socioeconomic disadvantage. Hence, less to spend on equipment and less cricketing facilities than in the countryside.

Of course, these effects are supercharged in F1 given the equipment costs are that much higher and facilities much fewer.
Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:34 am
The last sentence is pure conjecture too, you have no way of quantifying that.
I see tired lazy stereotypes, especially when Archer's pace is the topic of discussion. It happens all the time with black athletes, people always describe their talent as natural and downplay their intelligence and guile (of which Archer has plenty given what we've seen in this year's IPL).
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Banana Man »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:25 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:48 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:34 pm
It's a good job your first time of watching Hamilton wasn't the Italian GP one year earlier or you would be convinced you were now in a parallel universe.
I presume that was the year he crashed in a rather undignified way at one of the Lesmos! I think 2011 was the year he decided to dial down the inner Senna and dial up the inner Prost.
That was 2 years prior, and more forgiveable because he was giving it everything to snatch a 2nd place to keep up the slim chance of remaining in contention for the 2009 title. In Monza 2010 he didn't complete a lap after attempting a clumsy move on the inside of Massa at turn 4. It was the prologue to his 2011 season.
Didn’t he have a similar DNF with Webber at the next race in Singapore? A couple of average finishes, say 2x 4th place, would have given him a much better shot at the title in Abu Dhabi.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by JN23 »

Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:05 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:25 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:48 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:34 pm
It's a good job your first time of watching Hamilton wasn't the Italian GP one year earlier or you would be convinced you were now in a parallel universe.
I presume that was the year he crashed in a rather undignified way at one of the Lesmos! I think 2011 was the year he decided to dial down the inner Senna and dial up the inner Prost.
That was 2 years prior, and more forgiveable because he was giving it everything to snatch a 2nd place to keep up the slim chance of remaining in contention for the 2009 title. In Monza 2010 he didn't complete a lap after attempting a clumsy move on the inside of Massa at turn 4. It was the prologue to his 2011 season.
Didn’t he have a similar DNF with Webber at the next race in Singapore? A couple of average finishes, say 2x 4th place, would have given him a much better shot at the title in Abu Dhabi.
Two fourth places would have won him the title if you just give him those points, but obviously things would have played out differently had Hamilton finished both of those races in fourth.

I think by Singapore Hamilton realised the need to take risks as Ferrari/Red Bull were ahead and that’s why he tried to get passed Webber on the safety car restart. They were different incidents, I think Monza was definitely Hamilton’s fault but Singapore wasn’t.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:05 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:25 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:48 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:34 pm
It's a good job your first time of watching Hamilton wasn't the Italian GP one year earlier or you would be convinced you were now in a parallel universe.
I presume that was the year he crashed in a rather undignified way at one of the Lesmos! I think 2011 was the year he decided to dial down the inner Senna and dial up the inner Prost.
That was 2 years prior, and more forgiveable because he was giving it everything to snatch a 2nd place to keep up the slim chance of remaining in contention for the 2009 title. In Monza 2010 he didn't complete a lap after attempting a clumsy move on the inside of Massa at turn 4. It was the prologue to his 2011 season.
Didn’t he have a similar DNF with Webber at the next race in Singapore? A couple of average finishes, say 2x 4th place, would have given him a much better shot at the title in Abu Dhabi.
His problem was that in the closing stages of the season he only had the 3rd fastest car.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:31 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:05 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:25 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:48 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:34 pm
It's a good job your first time of watching Hamilton wasn't the Italian GP one year earlier or you would be convinced you were now in a parallel universe.
I presume that was the year he crashed in a rather undignified way at one of the Lesmos! I think 2011 was the year he decided to dial down the inner Senna and dial up the inner Prost.
That was 2 years prior, and more forgiveable because he was giving it everything to snatch a 2nd place to keep up the slim chance of remaining in contention for the 2009 title. In Monza 2010 he didn't complete a lap after attempting a clumsy move on the inside of Massa at turn 4. It was the prologue to his 2011 season.
Didn’t he have a similar DNF with Webber at the next race in Singapore? A couple of average finishes, say 2x 4th place, would have given him a much better shot at the title in Abu Dhabi.
Two fourth places would have won him the title if you just give him those points, but obviously things would have played out differently had Hamilton finished both of those races in fourth.

I think by Singapore Hamilton realised the need to take risks as Ferrari/Red Bull were ahead and that’s why he tried to get passed Webber on the safety car restart. They were different incidents, I think Monza was definitely Hamilton’s fault but Singapore wasn’t.
Yeah the 2 incidents were similar but one were Hamilton was behind going into the corner and one were Hamilton was in front, you can hardly blame Hamilton for both, quite unlucky that Hamilton's car got damaged twice while the other 2 cars received no damage.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by tootsie323 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:31 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:05 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:25 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:48 pm


I presume that was the year he crashed in a rather undignified way at one of the Lesmos! I think 2011 was the year he decided to dial down the inner Senna and dial up the inner Prost.
That was 2 years prior, and more forgiveable because he was giving it everything to snatch a 2nd place to keep up the slim chance of remaining in contention for the 2009 title. In Monza 2010 he didn't complete a lap after attempting a clumsy move on the inside of Massa at turn 4. It was the prologue to his 2011 season.
Didn’t he have a similar DNF with Webber at the next race in Singapore? A couple of average finishes, say 2x 4th place, would have given him a much better shot at the title in Abu Dhabi.
Two fourth places would have won him the title if you just give him those points, but obviously things would have played out differently had Hamilton finished both of those races in fourth.

I think by Singapore Hamilton realised the need to take risks as Ferrari/Red Bull were ahead and that’s why he tried to get passed Webber on the safety car restart. They were different incidents, I think Monza was definitely Hamilton’s fault but Singapore wasn’t.
Yeah the 2 incidents were similar but one were Hamilton was behind going into the corner and one were Hamilton was in front, you can hardly blame Hamilton for both, quite unlucky that Hamilton's car got damaged twice while the other 2 cars received no damage.
Probably nit-picking here but I felt that Hamilton was going for a closing gap in Italy - that was a bit of an impatient move for me. I did feel that he was unlucky in Singapore - had the move pretty much done but Webber kept the car in. A DNF from that just rubbed salt into that bad luck.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:51 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 pm
JN23 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:31 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:05 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:25 am

That was 2 years prior, and more forgiveable because he was giving it everything to snatch a 2nd place to keep up the slim chance of remaining in contention for the 2009 title. In Monza 2010 he didn't complete a lap after attempting a clumsy move on the inside of Massa at turn 4. It was the prologue to his 2011 season.
Didn’t he have a similar DNF with Webber at the next race in Singapore? A couple of average finishes, say 2x 4th place, would have given him a much better shot at the title in Abu Dhabi.
Two fourth places would have won him the title if you just give him those points, but obviously things would have played out differently had Hamilton finished both of those races in fourth.

I think by Singapore Hamilton realised the need to take risks as Ferrari/Red Bull were ahead and that’s why he tried to get passed Webber on the safety car restart. They were different incidents, I think Monza was definitely Hamilton’s fault but Singapore wasn’t.
Yeah the 2 incidents were similar but one were Hamilton was behind going into the corner and one were Hamilton was in front, you can hardly blame Hamilton for both, quite unlucky that Hamilton's car got damaged twice while the other 2 cars received no damage.
Probably nit-picking here but I felt that Hamilton was going for a closing gap in Italy - that was a bit of an impatient move for me. I did feel that he was unlucky in Singapore - had the move pretty much done but Webber kept the car in. A DNF from that just rubbed salt into that bad luck.
I think that kind of tallies with what I said, In Singapore Hamilton even went wide at the apex but Webber went and stuck his nose in.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Italy was all Hamilton. He just hung a wheel in sort of half heartedly in a space Massa was never going to leave.

In Singapore it was more 50/50 he overtook Webber on the outside and could have easily left more room. It's always a risk to squeeze your opponent that tightly.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by babararacucudada »

A good interview of Lewis Hamilton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHIPmon91o

He's always been a top driver on the track.
I'm impressed that he seems to have improved himself off the track - attitude to life and having more purpose - plus he speaks well and doesn't seem to be trying to be someone - more trying to be a better version of himself - and succeeding.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

A reminder of Hamilton's F1 debut, in Q3 he was carrying more race fuel than Alonso which was the tendency in the first part of the season, how I hate race fuelled qualifying.

https://streamable.com/k4boot
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JN23
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by JN23 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:38 pm
A reminder of Hamilton's F1 debut, in Q3 he was carrying more race fuel than Alonso which was the tendency in the first part of the season, how I hate race fuelled qualifying.

https://streamable.com/k4boot
Where did you find this?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Option or Prime »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:38 pm
A reminder of Hamilton's F1 debut, in Q3 he was carrying more race fuel than Alonso which was the tendency in the first part of the season, how I hate race fuelled qualifying.

https://streamable.com/k4boot
Great watch! Treaded dry tyres?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:38 pm
A reminder of Hamilton's F1 debut, in Q3 he was carrying more race fuel than Alonso which was the tendency in the first part of the season, how I hate race fuelled qualifying.

https://streamable.com/k4boot
Where did you find this?
It was posted on another site.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

Lewis Hamilton #44

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

I've been doing some comparisons between Hamilton and Schumacher and one major difference between them was their success in the fallow periods between their titles: 1996-1999 for Schumacher and 2009-2013 for Hamilton.

In those years, Schumacher achieved 3rd, 2nd (later DSQ), 2nd and 5th often driving inferior machinery. Meanwhile, Hamilton alternated between 4th and 5th with very competitive cars intermittently but hampered by poor reliability, a hapless McLaren team or Mercedes high rear tyre degradation.

While Schumacher is valourised for his efforts in the late 90s (especially in 1996 Spanish victory in an "armchair"), Hamilton was often considered in the wilderness.

However, I feel one can argue that only 2011 was a wilderness year (and a rather bipolar one at that) and he otherwise would have strongly challenged for the title into the final race of both 2010 and 2012 if not for McLaren's unreliability.

One could also argue that the 1996-1999 driver's grid was one of the weakest for a long while before or since while the 2009-2013 grid was one of the strongest. The likes of Hill, Villeneuve, Frentzen, Hakkinen and Coulthard vs Alonso, Raikkonen, Vettel, Rosberg, Button and Webber.

Is this a fair assessment, or optimistic revisionism to bring Hamilton up to Schumacher's level?
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

"Currently the salary cap is supposed to be implemented... probably when I'm not even here."

Taking that at face value, that gives Hamilton 2021 and 2022 and then he's out. Not that I believe that, mind.

The driver soft cap might be implemented into the salary cap starting from 2023.


Also, Hamilton answered to the topic in the press conference in response to Franz Tost's comments on how drivers should just be grateful that they're driving F1 cars and shouldn't earn more than $10 million per year in salary. Quite hilariously, perhaps embarrassingly, Hamilton didn't know who Franz Tost is.

8O

Do we really buy that?

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:16 pm
"Currently the salary cap is supposed to be implemented... probably when I'm not even here."

Taking that at face value, that gives Hamilton 2021 and 2022 and then he's out. Not that I believe that, mind.

The driver soft cap might be implemented into the salary cap starting from 2023.


Also, Hamilton answered to the topic in the press conference in response to Franz Tost's comments on how drivers should just be grateful that they're driving F1 cars and shouldn't earn more than $10 million per year in salary. Quite hilariously, perhaps embarrassingly, Hamilton didn't know who Franz Tost is.

8O

Do we really buy that?
I thought Hamilton just mentioned that he wasn't aware that this was being discussed, not that he wasn't aware of Tost.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:40 pm
Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:16 pm
"Currently the salary cap is supposed to be implemented... probably when I'm not even here."

Taking that at face value, that gives Hamilton 2021 and 2022 and then he's out. Not that I believe that, mind.

The driver soft cap might be implemented into the salary cap starting from 2023.


Also, Hamilton answered to the topic in the press conference in response to Franz Tost's comments on how drivers should just be grateful that they're driving F1 cars and shouldn't earn more than $10 million per year in salary. Quite hilariously, perhaps embarrassingly, Hamilton didn't know who Franz Tost is.

8O

Do we really buy that?
I thought Hamilton just mentioned that he wasn't aware that this was being discussed, not that he wasn't aware of Tost.
".. and Franz Tost said recently [salary cap stuff]..."

"... who said that?"

"... Franz Tost."

"Who's that?"

"..err.. team principal of Alpha Tauri, Franz Tost."

"Ahhh..."

Siao7
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:43 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:40 pm
Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:16 pm
"Currently the salary cap is supposed to be implemented... probably when I'm not even here."

Taking that at face value, that gives Hamilton 2021 and 2022 and then he's out. Not that I believe that, mind.

The driver soft cap might be implemented into the salary cap starting from 2023.


Also, Hamilton answered to the topic in the press conference in response to Franz Tost's comments on how drivers should just be grateful that they're driving F1 cars and shouldn't earn more than $10 million per year in salary. Quite hilariously, perhaps embarrassingly, Hamilton didn't know who Franz Tost is.

8O

Do we really buy that?
I thought Hamilton just mentioned that he wasn't aware that this was being discussed, not that he wasn't aware of Tost.
".. and Franz Tost said recently [salary cap stuff]..."

"... who said that?"

"... Franz Tost."

"Who's that?"

"..err.. team principal of Alpha Tauri, Franz Tost."

"Ahhh..."
Do you have a link for that? Not that I don't believe you, but I couldn't find this article, only ones with what I mentioned above.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:28 pm
Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:43 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:40 pm
Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:16 pm
"Currently the salary cap is supposed to be implemented... probably when I'm not even here."

Taking that at face value, that gives Hamilton 2021 and 2022 and then he's out. Not that I believe that, mind.

The driver soft cap might be implemented into the salary cap starting from 2023.


Also, Hamilton answered to the topic in the press conference in response to Franz Tost's comments on how drivers should just be grateful that they're driving F1 cars and shouldn't earn more than $10 million per year in salary. Quite hilariously, perhaps embarrassingly, Hamilton didn't know who Franz Tost is.

8O

Do we really buy that?
I thought Hamilton just mentioned that he wasn't aware that this was being discussed, not that he wasn't aware of Tost.
".. and Franz Tost said recently [salary cap stuff]..."

"... who said that?"

"... Franz Tost."

"Who's that?"

"..err.. team principal of Alpha Tauri, Franz Tost."

"Ahhh..."
Do you have a link for that? Not that I don't believe you, but I couldn't find this article, only ones with what I mentioned above.
Actually was the first thing that appeared on Youtube for me lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZUkz1 ... =TheShessa

Seemed like he didn't like the question, and said, 'who?', as if to say who's spewing this bull****
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:37 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:28 pm
Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:43 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:40 pm
Invade wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:16 pm
"Currently the salary cap is supposed to be implemented... probably when I'm not even here."

Taking that at face value, that gives Hamilton 2021 and 2022 and then he's out. Not that I believe that, mind.

The driver soft cap might be implemented into the salary cap starting from 2023.


Also, Hamilton answered to the topic in the press conference in response to Franz Tost's comments on how drivers should just be grateful that they're driving F1 cars and shouldn't earn more than $10 million per year in salary. Quite hilariously, perhaps embarrassingly, Hamilton didn't know who Franz Tost is.

8O

Do we really buy that?
I thought Hamilton just mentioned that he wasn't aware that this was being discussed, not that he wasn't aware of Tost.
".. and Franz Tost said recently [salary cap stuff]..."

"... who said that?"

"... Franz Tost."

"Who's that?"

"..err.. team principal of Alpha Tauri, Franz Tost."

"Ahhh..."
Do you have a link for that? Not that I don't believe you, but I couldn't find this article, only ones with what I mentioned above.
Actually was the first thing that appeared on Youtube for me lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZUkz1 ... =TheShessa

Seemed like he didn't like the question, and said, 'who?', as if to say who's spewing this bull****
Ah, thank you. I thought he may have been joking in the same way as you describe above, but he seems genuinely baffled. And the journo's hesitation makes it even worse!

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Rotax Max 125 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:36 am
I've been doing some comparisons between Hamilton and Schumacher and one major difference between them was their success in the fallow periods between their titles: 1996-1999 for Schumacher and 2009-2013 for Hamilton.

In those years, Schumacher achieved 3rd, 2nd (later DSQ), 2nd and 5th often driving inferior machinery. Meanwhile, Hamilton alternated between 4th and 5th with very competitive cars intermittently but hampered by poor reliability, a hapless McLaren team or Mercedes high rear tyre degradation.

While Schumacher is valourised for his efforts in the late 90s (especially in 1996 Spanish victory in an "armchair"), Hamilton was often considered in the wilderness.

However, I feel one can argue that only 2011 was a wilderness year (and a rather bipolar one at that) and he otherwise would have strongly challenged for the title into the final race of both 2010 and 2012 if not for McLaren's unreliability.

One could also argue that the 1996-1999 driver's grid was one of the weakest for a long while before or since while the 2009-2013 grid was one of the strongest. The likes of Hill, Villeneuve, Frentzen, Hakkinen and Coulthard vs Alonso, Raikkonen, Vettel, Rosberg, Button and Webber.

Is this a fair assessment, or optimistic revisionism to bring Hamilton up to Schumacher's level?
I agree that's 2011 was the one and only season where Lewis performed below his ability. That season it seemed phyclogically things got to him and this effected his performance. Ever since he has been on it every year and at every race. I think he learnt a lot that year.

da4an1qu1
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by da4an1qu1 »

He knew who Franz Tost is. He was just being petulant.

Even if he didn't know, when the realisation came that he was being disrespectful, even inadvertently, he should have owned that immediately. Apologised, claimed a moment of brain fade or something.

It's a disappointing lack of humility.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

da4an1qu1 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:00 am
He knew who Franz Tost is. He was just being petulant.

Even if he didn't know, when the realisation came that he was being disrespectful, even inadvertently, he should have owned that immediately. Apologised, claimed a moment of brain fade or something.

It's a disappointing lack of humility.
The only one being disrepectful was Franz Tost, he's not even responsible for what his drivers get paid yet he thinks he should be abke to determine what someone like Hamilton should be paid, did he not determine that drivers should get paid no more than $10M a year.

Hamilton even said that it wouldn't effect him, I believe it's not been proposed until 2023, Hamilton also made a valid point how other top sportsman don't have their earning potential capped.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by da4an1qu1 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:15 am
da4an1qu1 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:00 am
He knew who Franz Tost is. He was just being petulant.

Even if he didn't know, when the realisation came that he was being disrespectful, even inadvertently, he should have owned that immediately. Apologised, claimed a moment of brain fade or something.

It's a disappointing lack of humility.
The only one being disrepectful was Franz Tost, he's not even responsible for what his drivers get paid yet he thinks he should be abke to determine what someone like Hamilton should be paid, did he not determine that drivers should get paid no more than $10M a year.

Hamilton even said that it wouldn't effect him, I believe it's not been proposed until 2023, Hamilton also made a valid point how other top sportsman don't have their earning potential capped.
I make no judgement on Tost's character. That's irrelevant. Based on what you are saying, you are agreeing Hamilton knew who Tost is, and this was his way of "negging" him.

That's just childish. If it was the case that Hamilton was annoyed, he should have just explicitly disparaged Tost.

We are all human... say he didn't recall that Tost is Alpha Tauri's team principal. As soon as he became aware... "oh, okay" he should have addressed that. Again, we are all human. If he comes out and admits it was silly of him to have either a) forgotten Tost or b) failed to acknowledge the moment, he'd get a pass from me.

Hamilton has these blindspots, and it's really disappointing. I guess you take the good with the bad from all champions (Schumacher, Senna, Prost, etc), but come on man... it's frustrating.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:15 am
The only one being disrepectful was Franz Tost, he's not even responsible for what his drivers get paid yet he thinks he should be abke to determine what someone like Hamilton should be paid, did he not determine that drivers should get paid no more than $10M a year.
What a bizarre thing to say. How is suggesting a $10m (!) salary cap for drivers being disrespectful? Is he somehow insulting the drivers by saying that if there's a budget cap it makes sense for there to be a salary cap as well?

As for the figure suggested, $10m isn't exactly a starvation wage. There are only -- at a guess -- three drivers making more than $10m a year right now. Of those three, all of them are overpaid and at least two aren't making a commensurate difference to their team: Mercedes would be winning without Hamilton, and Red Bull clearly isn't winning even with Verstappen. Only Ricciardo is potentially making a difference to his team's actual WCC position with his talent.

I think F1 drivers -- like all sportsmen -- are already hugely overpaid, and it's pretty ridiculous to imply that a suggestion to limit their salary to $10m is somehow disrespecting them. I don't think any other member of the team makes close to that, but the team principal and chief engineer are at least as important as the driver -- and you don't see them mouthing off to the media about how little they're paid.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Badgeronimous »

Drivers are worth what somebody is willing to pay them.

Doesn't mean to say I don't think the very top ones are not massively overpaid - but I wouldn't be for a salary cap - as said a driver is worth what somebody will pay.

For every Lewis Hamilton there are 1000 families who spent a fortune and got nowhere in karts and 1000 club racers who dream of making it big and sink a fortune into going nowhere. Could easily have been Lewis as well if his hand was dealt different.

Even a series as high up the ladder as the British Touring Cars, none of the drivers are getting paid from the teams. Surprisingly few racing drivers making serious money out of being a racing driver (although a fair chunk already have a silver spoon in their mouth).

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Exediron »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:48 am
For every Lewis Hamilton there are 1000 families who spent a fortune and got nowhere in karts and 1000 club racers who dream of making it big and sink a fortune into going nowhere. Could easily have been Lewis as well if his hand was dealt different.

Even a series as high up the ladder as the British Touring Cars, none of the drivers are getting paid from the teams. Surprisingly few racing drivers making serious money out of being a racing driver (although a fair chunk already have a silver spoon in their mouth).
That's not a great situation, I'd agree. But I don't see it as being an argument in favor of paying the ones at the peak of the period absurd salaries to compensate.

As for drivers being worth what someone is willing to pay for them, that means Leclerc is worth quite a few million less than Ricciardo or Vettel (this year). Doesn't seem right.

Top athletes, much like teams, have always been and will likely always be able to leverage their image and success for additional income through sponsorship and endorsements. I don't see any reason they should also be paid an unreasonable amount more by their teams, particularly for a less funded team where that money is directly weakening the team as a result.

The bottom line for me is that drivers are paid as if they're the ones responsible for the success of their teams, when it's actually the other way around.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:15 am
The only one being disrepectful was Franz Tost, he's not even responsible for what his drivers get paid yet he thinks he should be abke to determine what someone like Hamilton should be paid, did he not determine that drivers should get paid no more than $10M a year.
What a bizarre thing to say. How is suggesting a $10m (!) salary cap for drivers being disrespectful? Is he somehow insulting the drivers by saying that if there's a budget cap it makes sense for there to be a salary cap as well?

As for the figure suggested, $10m isn't exactly a starvation wage. There are only -- at a guess -- three drivers making more than $10m a year right now. Of those three, all of them are overpaid and at least two aren't making a commensurate difference to their team: Mercedes would be winning without Hamilton, and Red Bull clearly isn't winning even with Verstappen. Only Ricciardo is potentially making a difference to his team's actual WCC position with his talent.

I think F1 drivers -- like all sportsmen -- are already hugely overpaid, and it's pretty ridiculous to imply that a suggestion to limit their salary to $10m is somehow disrespecting them. I don't think any other member of the team makes close to that, but the team principal and chief engineer are at least as important as the driver -- and you don't see them mouthing off to the media about how little they're paid.
Absolutely. And a good example is the NBA, where they have a cap and the top players although paid very well, they still make loads of money outside the sport from sponsors anyway. Famously, Jordan made only something like $100m from Bulls (the biggest star in the sport was making only like $2-4m in his first stint with them). But teaming up with Nike, he is now worth over $1.5b.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

Curry is on for a cool $43 million this season.

Nice.

And then he makes many more millions through Under Armour and the like.

Dame Lillard is currently on a lukewarm $257 million guaranteed over the course of his current contract. We'll see how that pans out.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

I'd definitely be opposed to driver salary caps. I think a salary should be negotiated between the team and driver, not decided by an external body.

If Mercedes cannot persuade Lewis to drive for them for $10 million, then that's their problem. A driver salary cap in this instance could potentially mean Lewis would walk out of F1 because he doesn't justify racing for such a (relatively) low salary. Do we really want an F1 where the best drivers consider hanging up their boots because they're not getting paid enough?

It's a free market, and any cap would reduce the negotiating powers of drivers and teams, creating an inefficient market.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:04 pm
I'd definitely be opposed to driver salary caps. I think a salary should be negotiated between the team and driver, not decided by an external body.

If Mercedes cannot persuade Lewis to drive for them for $10 million, then that's their problem. A driver salary cap in this instance could potentially mean Lewis would walk out of F1 because he doesn't justify racing for such a (relatively) low salary. Do we really want an F1 where the best drivers consider hanging up their boots because they're not getting paid enough?

It's a free market, and any cap would reduce the negotiating powers of drivers and teams, creating an inefficient market.
I agree. What is actually gained from this cap? The teams paying the big money are the teams that can afford to anyway.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:04 pm
I'd definitely be opposed to driver salary caps. I think a salary should be negotiated between the team and driver, not decided by an external body.

If Mercedes cannot persuade Lewis to drive for them for $10 million, then that's their problem. A driver salary cap in this instance could potentially mean Lewis would walk out of F1 because he doesn't justify racing for such a (relatively) low salary. Do we really want an F1 where the best drivers consider hanging up their boots because they're not getting paid enough?

It's a free market, and any cap would reduce the negotiating powers of drivers and teams, creating an inefficient market.
I agree, but think of an alternative scenario; the drivers getting additional money from sponsors and Merc spends the £20m they save helping lower tier drivers or low paid factory personnel. That would also make some sense

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

Rotax Max 125 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:11 pm
Ever since he has been on it every year and at every race. I think he learnt a lot that year.
A lot of people don't rate Andrew Phillips statistical model but it rates his career as follows.

Image

The model shows consistent excellence. The only drivers considered by the model to have a better season than him are:

Alonso - 2008-2014, 2016
Barrichello - 2008
Massa - 2008
Button - 2011
Vettel - 2011, 2013, 2015, 2017
Rosberg - 2013
Ricciardo - 2017
Verstappen - 2019

Only Alonso comes close according to the model.
Image

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

Yeh. I don't take the model seriously. Some strange cooking in there.


Hilariously, the 2019 rankings almost had Vettel ahead of Hamilton, and rates Vettel's season as, for example, better than Hamilton's 2012.

The model was close to putting Vettel ahead of Hamilton in 2015, 2017 and 2019. 2017 is already a stretch. Yet, by comparison to the gap Hamilton has over Vettel for 2019, Vettel crushes Hamilton in 2017.

The model bakes in some quite rigid baselines for performance which don't adjust well to changing performance. A score of 8+ basically means you've put in a VERY good season. But that's a laughable notion for Vettel in 2019 (Leclerc was scored slightly lower than Vettel BTW). This is one example of many which are miasmic in the model.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

Invade wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:14 pm
Yeh. I don't take the model seriously. Some strange cooking in there.
I think theoretically it's reasonably valid although most people including myself scoff at Button (11), Sainz (13), Perez (14), Hulk (17) and Rosberg (18) being rated higher than Senna (21) and Prost (20).

I think his list of the top 7 ATGs (Schumacher, Stewart, Alonso, Fangio, Ascari, Clark and Hamilton) is pretty spot on but I'd add Senna and Prost.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:24 pm
Invade wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:14 pm
Yeh. I don't take the model seriously. Some strange cooking in there.
I think theoretically it's reasonably valid although most people including myself scoff at Button (11), Sainz (13), Perez (14), Hulk (17) and Rosberg (18) being rated higher than Senna (21) and Prost (20).

I think his list of the top 7 ATGs (Schumacher, Stewart, Alonso, Fangio, Ascari, Clark and Hamilton) is pretty spot on but I'd add Senna and Prost.
I think a well informed and honest 'eye test' complemented with basic stats would arrive at conclusions with less glaring inadequacies than this model has done. Also, the way the model treats the Senna Prost era, and Andrew's justifications and defence for it really don't hold up to any less myopic and more well considered theorising on the dynamics of eras and sports anomalies in general, across sports.

The model is so bound up in itself that it has serious big picture problems, it creates an image which suggests Senna and Prost weren't that good and that their era was weak and presumably it does so by the consistent use of its own integral parameters, and this view is then paraded as being conclusive and providing penetrating insight on the truth of that era. By any measure the model is applied it arrives to the same results, and constant tweaks providing the consistent outlook has given Andrew a quite unshakeable belief in the results.

There are so many variables and such a volatile range of influence in those variables for any model to hope to provide any real sort of 'objective' portrayal of driver ability and competitiveness. But common sense prevails when one considers the sort of massive advantages Prost and Senna often enjoyed, thus separating themselves generally from the field. So what flies, that the ENTIRE era and grid was weak and so this gap in performance must be completely absurd for Senna and Prost to score more highly, or that a couple of anomalies (Senna, Prost) were outstanding enough to separate amid a field which, more or less, remains quite stable in overall ability with slow arcs of average performance variance over time. The basic dynamics of sports and performance which can be analogically drawn across sports simply shows the outcome of this model to be a red flag. It doesn't mean it's definitely 'false', but far more serious thought needs to go into how such an atypical conclusion could be reached, in terms of far-reaching outside factors and moments of significant dynamical change which somehow unseated the model's baseline for the period.

My basic view is that the transitory carryover from driver to driver as to continuously calibrate ongoing driver performance measurement isn't so transitory after all. Rather, it builds in seriously obdurate judgment which causes the model to be maladaptive to unusually impactful 'outside' variables (as well as sudden drops or gains in performance), and that performance is judged with far too great a weight on a diachronic context rather than shorter windows of more synchronic, self contained performance which doesn't rely on the weight of huge strings and stretches of driver comparison across eras. That's my intuition on the biggest pitfall of the model. Because the '80s era 'in and of itself' ,relationally, would not yield such an outlook for Prost and Senna.

There's a strange connectivity in transitory performance between drivers which has handicapped the Prost/Senna era so profoundly that it demanded unprecedented dominance from them if they were to score in the same bracket as the likes of Alonso, Schumacher, Stewart, and even Hamilton, who scores lower than those three.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

da4an1qu1 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:27 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:15 am
da4an1qu1 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:00 am
He knew who Franz Tost is. He was just being petulant.

Even if he didn't know, when the realisation came that he was being disrespectful, even inadvertently, he should have owned that immediately. Apologised, claimed a moment of brain fade or something.

It's a disappointing lack of humility.
The only one being disrepectful was Franz Tost, he's not even responsible for what his drivers get paid yet he thinks he should be abke to determine what someone like Hamilton should be paid, did he not determine that drivers should get paid no more than $10M a year.

Hamilton even said that it wouldn't effect him, I believe it's not been proposed until 2023, Hamilton also made a valid point how other top sportsman don't have their earning potential capped.
I make no judgement on Tost's character. That's irrelevant. Based on what you are saying, you are agreeing Hamilton knew who Tost is, and this was his way of "negging" him.

That's just childish. If it was the case that Hamilton was annoyed, he should have just explicitly disparaged Tost.

We are all human... say he didn't recall that Tost is Alpha Tauri's team principal. As soon as he became aware... "oh, okay" he should have addressed that. Again, we are all human. If he comes out and admits it was silly of him to have either a) forgotten Tost or b) failed to acknowledge the moment, he'd get a pass from me.

Hamilton has these blindspots, and it's really disappointing. I guess you take the good with the bad from all champions (Schumacher, Senna, Prost, etc), but come on man... it's frustrating.
Hamilton at that moment didn't know who he was, you can say that's bad on him, what Tost had to say I didn't agree with.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:15 am
The only one being disrepectful was Franz Tost, he's not even responsible for what his drivers get paid yet he thinks he should be abke to determine what someone like Hamilton should be paid, did he not determine that drivers should get paid no more than $10M a year.
What a bizarre thing to say. How is suggesting a $10m (!) salary cap for drivers being disrespectful? Is he somehow insulting the drivers by saying that if there's a budget cap it makes sense for there to be a salary cap as well?

As for the figure suggested, $10m isn't exactly a starvation wage. There are only -- at a guess -- three drivers making more than $10m a year right now. Of those three, all of them are overpaid and at least two aren't making a commensurate difference to their team: Mercedes would be winning without Hamilton, and Red Bull clearly isn't winning even with Verstappen. Only Ricciardo is potentially making a difference to his team's actual WCC position with his talent.

I think F1 drivers -- like all sportsmen -- are already hugely overpaid, and it's pretty ridiculous to imply that a suggestion to limit their salary to $10m is somehow disrespecting them. I don't think any other member of the team makes close to that, but the team principal and chief engineer are at least as important as the driver -- and you don't see them mouthing off to the media about how little they're paid.
In a free market you don't limit what sportsmen are being paid, people that pay them see value in it, also in F1 it's different because I believe the commercial rights of the drivers is owned by the teams and they can earn money from that, money that other sportsmen keep for themselves.
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Podiums: 165 (1st)


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