The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

[j man]

So 92 to choose from, which is Hamilton's best win?

Silverstone 2008, China 2011, Germany 2011, Bahrain 2014, Germany 2018, Italy 2018 all stand out to me. I'm sure I've missed some though, there's a lot to remember

All very good suggestions that would go at the top of my list. It's easy to forget that 2011 contained two of his best wins. Silverstone 2008 has to be at the top though, not just for the performance but also because for me it was the race that really marked Lewis out as a future all-time great. It was the sort of drive we used to see from Schumacher and Senna.

Other notable races that come to mind:
Japan 2007 in the pouring rain.
Hungary 2013, his first win for Mercedes in a car that was not the quickest on the day and had a horrible tendency to munch through its tyres. After his struggles in 2011 it showed that he had mastered the Pirelli rubber.
Monaco 2016. People might scoff at this one as he only got the win after Mercedes ordered Rosberg to let him past and Red Bull messed up Ricciardo's pitstop. But posting competitive lap times on worn out wet tyres when everyone else had swapped to inters and saving a pitstop by switching straight to slicks was something that stuck in my mind.

[Exediron]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

[mikeyg123]

I would also mention the US GP in 2012. He out raced Vettel that day with a car deficit.

[bonecrasher]

Hockenheim 2008 was also a standout. Although he started from pole there was a safety car deployed eroding all of Hamilton’s advantage he had built up but to compound it all McLaren pitwall had the bright idea not to pit him whilst all the other leaders pitted. Hamilton had to put in qualifying laps after that to build a gap but when he did pit for his final pitstop it was not big enough and he had lost position to Massa and Picquet and had to chase them down and pass them on track for the win.

[Asphalt_World]

I've loved watching lots of Lewis' driving masterclasses in F1, but to some extent, I'm more impressed by some of his drives in GP2. That double pass into Becketts was astonishing and his comeback drive in Turkey was something else.

[pokerman]

So 92 to choose from, which is Hamilton's best win?

Silverstone 2008, China 2011, Germany 2011, Bahrain 2014, Germany 2018, Italy 2018 all stand out to me. I'm sure I've missed some though, there's a lot to remember

Silverstone 2008, he won by over a minute, sadly today it would be a safety car bonanza.

[pokerman]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

Yes that was very significant in the title race and the mental affect it must have had on Vettel.

[Siao7]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

I am not so convinced about this one. Hamilton had really bad luck in the quali and started from P14, but with that Mercedes he was in P5 within a couple of laps. In the race itself he was quite lucky actually; Vettel had a brain fart and Bottas got a botched 20 second pit stop, plus the SC that bunched the field up. The biggest threat was Bottas attacking on the re-start, something that was dealt with a team order. So while the effect was huge in the sense that it got the WDC momentum back in Lewis's favour, it was not so much down to a meteoric drive as such, rather a combination of good driving and a fair chunk of luck. I think he's had better drives is all I'm saying.

[pokerman]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

I am not so convinced about this one. Hamilton had really bad luck in the quali and started from P14, but with that Mercedes he was in P5 within a couple of laps. In the race itself he was quite lucky actually; Vettel had a brain fart and Bottas got a botched 20 second pit stop, plus the SC that bunched the field up. The biggest threat was Bottas attacking on the re-start, something that was dealt with a team order. So while the effect was huge in the sense that it got the WDC momentum back in Lewis's favour, it was not so much down to a meteoric drive as such, rather a combination of good driving and a fair chunk of luck. I think he's had better drives is all I'm saying.

You read the race totally wrong Hamilton had caught the back of Bottas and Kimi in the wet conditions, he was on the reverse tyre strategy having started 14th, he pitted later and was on fresher and better compound of tyre for the wet conditions, see the race start last time out.

In a few laps he would have passed both Bottas and Kimi but Vettel then crashed bringing out the SC, this allowed both Bottas and Kimi to pit for fresher tyres, the same compound as Hamilton, Hamilton stayed out.

So Hamilton then had the lead for the restart but was disadvantaged on older tyres, so no the SC helped Bottas and not Hamilton.

[Siao7]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

I am not so convinced about this one. Hamilton had really bad luck in the quali and started from P14, but with that Mercedes he was in P5 within a couple of laps. In the race itself he was quite lucky actually; Vettel had a brain fart and Bottas got a botched 20 second pit stop, plus the SC that bunched the field up. The biggest threat was Bottas attacking on the re-start, something that was dealt with a team order. So while the effect was huge in the sense that it got the WDC momentum back in Lewis's favour, it was not so much down to a meteoric drive as such, rather a combination of good driving and a fair chunk of luck. I think he's had better drives is all I'm saying.

You read the race totally wrong Hamilton had caught the back of Bottas and Kimi in the wet conditions, he was on the reverse tyre strategy having started 14th, he pitted later and was on fresher and better compound of tyre for the wet conditions, see the race start last time out.

In a few laps he would have passed both Bottas and Kimi but Vettel then crashed bringing out the SC, this allowed both Bottas and Kimi to pit for fresher tyres, the same compound as Hamilton, Hamilton stayed out.

So Hamilton then had the lead for the restart but was disadvantaged on older tyres, so no the SC helped Bottas and not Hamilton.

If we are talking about coulda woulda shoulda, then yes, you may be right. But it didn't play like that and in the end a team order ensured that win. I am not trying to downplay it, just that as a drive I think he has had better ones.

[pokerman]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

I am not so convinced about this one. Hamilton had really bad luck in the quali and started from P14, but with that Mercedes he was in P5 within a couple of laps. In the race itself he was quite lucky actually; Vettel had a brain fart and Bottas got a botched 20 second pit stop, plus the SC that bunched the field up. The biggest threat was Bottas attacking on the re-start, something that was dealt with a team order. So while the effect was huge in the sense that it got the WDC momentum back in Lewis's favour, it was not so much down to a meteoric drive as such, rather a combination of good driving and a fair chunk of luck. I think he's had better drives is all I'm saying.

You read the race totally wrong Hamilton had caught the back of Bottas and Kimi in the wet conditions, he was on the reverse tyre strategy having started 14th, he pitted later and was on fresher and better compound of tyre for the wet conditions, see the race start last time out.

In a few laps he would have passed both Bottas and Kimi but Vettel then crashed bringing out the SC, this allowed both Bottas and Kimi to pit for fresher tyres, the same compound as Hamilton, Hamilton stayed out.

So Hamilton then had the lead for the restart but was disadvantaged on older tyres, so no the SC helped Bottas and not Hamilton.

If we are talking about coulda woulda shoulda, then yes, you may be right. But it didn't play like that and in the end a team order ensured that win. I am not trying to downplay it, just that as a drive I think he has had better ones.

I think you need to look at the lap times.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton pits on lap 42, on lap 44 he is 16 seconds behind Bottas, by lap 51 he's only 3 seconds behind Bottas. Vettel crashes and the SC is called, Bottas pits for fresh tyres, your claim that Hamilton needed a SC to bunch the field up is unfounded, it was Bottas that benefitted from the SC.

Claims of Bottas losing 20 seconds at his pitstop seem a bit unfounded given that he was 2 seconds in front of Kimi when he pitted and didn't lose position, of course he was always going to lose position to Hamilton.

You clearly started out saying that Hamilton was lucky, Vettel crashed, a lucky SC, Bottas lost 20 seconds in the pits and we're left with Hamilton won because of a team order.

[Mort Canard]

Well I guess that will have to happen in the next 3 years, I can't see Bottas turning the tables next year, so then we're down to 2 years with Hamilton pushing towards 40 which can be a nice get out.

Well, Lewis could get out at the top of his game or at least before his results have begun to significantly diminish. Michael Schumacher picked about the right time for his first retirement. Lewis may do the same. A slow fade into mediocrity doesn't do much for a champion's place in history.

This is partly what I think about Vettel. I don't think Hamilton now is a whole lot better than Vettel was at his best. Vettel's consecutive number of race wins is still to be beaten. But by a lot of people, (not everyone) They seem to judge Vettel as simply not being able to go against Hamilton without breaking down. In that era, Vettel a great deal of the time looked so dominant and one of the years just happened to be a bad year for Hamilton.

Vettel currently is not anywhere near his best and I just hope he can do a turn around like he did in 2015. Maybe not at his best ever level, but still very good.

The only reason I've been disagreeing with some people's views on it being impossible for Bottas to have a chance on beating hamilton is that I still see one and only chance that is small, but possible. And that is only if Hamilton starts to fade (could be any time in the next few years), mercedes continue to dominate and Bottas is kept for a few more seasons. That wouldn't be impossible. But it wouldn't look great and if Hamilton stays as long as Vettel after his peak and something like this happens, he may also be remembered for similar things to Vettel despite his records.

Vettel was never as devastatingly good in every department as Hamilton is now. The way the safety car has been used in the last few years (and latterly red flags) it's pretty much impossible to rack up a long string of wins. Personally I think Hamilton was a bit better than Vettel 2010-13 and Hamilton is now a much better driver than he was then.

Bottas' trouble is that Hamilton would have to have a huge drop off. Hamilton, with his skill set, I think could afford to be slower than Bottas and still beat him over a season. He can manage race far better and has near perfect risk/reward analysis.

[TheGiantHogweed]

I'd say Germany 2018 is hard to beat for the total mix of driving and the importance of the drive.

Coming from the back to win is one thing, but coming from the back to win a race your title rival was leading comfortably -- and reversing the momentum of the championship in so doing -- is the realm of the greatest drive for an all-time great driver.

I am not so convinced about this one. Hamilton had really bad luck in the quali and started from P14, but with that Mercedes he was in P5 within a couple of laps. In the race itself he was quite lucky actually; Vettel had a brain fart and Bottas got a botched 20 second pit stop, plus the SC that bunched the field up. The biggest threat was Bottas attacking on the re-start, something that was dealt with a team order. So while the effect was huge in the sense that it got the WDC momentum back in Lewis's favour, it was not so much down to a meteoric drive as such, rather a combination of good driving and a fair chunk of luck. I think he's had better drives is all I'm saying.

You read the race totally wrong Hamilton had caught the back of Bottas and Kimi in the wet conditions, he was on the reverse tyre strategy having started 14th, he pitted later and was on fresher and better compound of tyre for the wet conditions, see the race start last time out.

In a few laps he would have passed both Bottas and Kimi but Vettel then crashed bringing out the SC, this allowed both Bottas and Kimi to pit for fresher tyres, the same compound as Hamilton, Hamilton stayed out.

So Hamilton then had the lead for the restart but was disadvantaged on older tyres, so no the SC helped Bottas and not Hamilton.

If we are talking about coulda woulda shoulda, then yes, you may be right. But it didn't play like that and in the end a team order ensured that win. I am not trying to downplay it, just that as a drive I think he has had better ones.

I think you need to look at the lap times.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton pits on lap 42, on lap 44 he is 16 seconds behind Bottas, by lap 51 he's only 3 seconds behind Bottas. Vettel crashes and the SC is called, Bottas pits for fresh tyres, your claim that Hamilton needed a SC to bunch the field up is unfounded, it was Bottas that benefitted from the SC.

Claims of Bottas losing 20 seconds at his pitstop seem a bit unfounded given that he was 2 seconds in front of Kimi when he pitted and didn't lose position, of course he was always going to lose position to Hamilton.

You clearly started out saying that Hamilton was lucky, Vettel crashed, a lucky SC, Bottas lost 20 seconds in the pits and we're left with Hamilton won because of a team order.

As I have recorded every race for the past few years, I took a look at this and Bottas was stationary for 15.9 seconds and yes, that actually didn't effect him as the safety car then helped him close back up to Hamilton.

But I don't think Hamilton's "weekend" on the whole was perfect. In qualifying, he triggered the problem himself. He bounced the car very heavily over the kerbs in turn 1 and Toto said after qualifying that most of the time, this sort of thing would be caused by a hydraulic leak, but this time after looking at the data, the problem occurred after the jump. With a team boss saying that, I don't think there is much to be denied that Hamilton's mistake triggered his unfortunate starting position. It can be said it was unfortunate, certainly, but it was a fairly bit wallop under the car. Mandonado had the exact same thing happen to his car in Spa 2015 that was caused by driving over a kerb very quickly so this sort of thing can happen.

I also think that he was his win was a little less impressive than it could have been had Bottas not been told to hold back. Many get the impression that Bottas had already fallen too far back to be able to have another chance, but that is partly because the "official" f1 channel seem to delay the radio messages by a huge margin for some reason. Even on the live broadcast which I recorded, I don't think they will be live either. Even on this coverage, the message was broadcast about 4 corners sooner than it was on the F1 channel and it likely will have been announced to Bottas sooner still when he looked to back off. Based on what Coulthard explained with the restart, with Bottas on fresher tyres that were more prepared for the conditions and had more ability to get the heat into them. And this was all before DRS. I think this was quite possibly one of Bottas's missed 2 wins due to team orders this season. But we obviously can't be certain about that.


I would say he was the best driver that day quite easily, but it certainly wasn't his most impressive win, probably not even close to it IMO.

[JN23]

F1 did a youtube video of Hamilton's five greatest wins, four mentioned in the discussion of his best wins on here over the last day or so. The other was Monaco 2019:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWkMevY ... b_err_woyt

[Exediron]

The other was Monaco 2019:

Why Monaco 2019?

I suppose it will be for holding Verstappen off, but I continue to be unimpressed by drives like that or Senna's much-ballyhooed defense from Mansell. It's so hard to overtake around Monaco that I just don't think it takes a masterful drive to hold your position.

[JN23]

The other was Monaco 2019:

Why Monaco 2019?

I suppose it will be for holding Verstappen off, but I continue to be unimpressed by drives like that or Senna's much-ballyhooed defense from Mansell. It's so hard to overtake around Monaco that I just don't think it takes a masterful drive to hold your position.

I’d consider it a good win but agree with you pretty much and wouldn’t put it up with his best.

[TheGiantHogweed]

The other was Monaco 2019:

Why Monaco 2019?

I suppose it will be for holding Verstappen off, but I continue to be unimpressed by drives like that or Senna's much-ballyhooed defense from Mansell. It's so hard to overtake around Monaco that I just don't think it takes a masterful drive to hold your position.

I’d consider it a good win but agree with you pretty much and wouldn’t put it up with his best.

I think that too, he also shouldn't really have had to worry about Verstappen getting by as Verstappen will have had to extend the gap by over 5 seconds to get the win anyway. So Hamilton really didn't need to try that hard.

I think the choice of that video having his 2 most recent of his 5 wins as Germany 2018 and Monaco 2019 is not the best of options to chose from. Nothing bad about his drives on race day, but he's had many better than them.

[Invade]

The other was Monaco 2019:

Why Monaco 2019?

I suppose it will be for holding Verstappen off, but I continue to be unimpressed by drives like that or Senna's much-ballyhooed defense from Mansell. It's so hard to overtake around Monaco that I just don't think it takes a masterful drive to hold your position.

I’d consider it a good win but agree with you pretty much and wouldn’t put it up with his best.

I think that too, he also shouldn't really have had to worry about Verstappen getting by as Verstappen will have had to extend the gap by over 5 seconds to get the win anyway. So Hamilton really didn't need to try that hard.

I think the choice of that video having his 2 most recent of his 5 wins as Germany 2018 and Monaco 2019 is not the best of options to chose from. Nothing bad about his drives on race day, but he's had many better than them.

I'm not so sure it would have been difficult for Max to build up a 5-second gap. He probably had way more speed than Hamilton given the tyre situation.

Maybe Ricciardo's Monaco win was quite a bit more impressive, though I'm not really sure why Vettel's effort was so mediocre. Was it overheating? Whatever - he couldn't nearly apply the pressure as Verstappen did. I remember was it Mexico 2019 where it seemed like he should be in a position to challenge Hamilton? He never got in range.


Anyway, how does Ricciardo's Monaco win compare to Hamilton's 2019 Monaco win?

[Invade]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

[pokerman]

I am not so convinced about this one. Hamilton had really bad luck in the quali and started from P14, but with that Mercedes he was in P5 within a couple of laps. In the race itself he was quite lucky actually; Vettel had a brain fart and Bottas got a botched 20 second pit stop, plus the SC that bunched the field up. The biggest threat was Bottas attacking on the re-start, something that was dealt with a team order. So while the effect was huge in the sense that it got the WDC momentum back in Lewis's favour, it was not so much down to a meteoric drive as such, rather a combination of good driving and a fair chunk of luck. I think he's had better drives is all I'm saying.

You read the race totally wrong Hamilton had caught the back of Bottas and Kimi in the wet conditions, he was on the reverse tyre strategy having started 14th, he pitted later and was on fresher and better compound of tyre for the wet conditions, see the race start last time out.

In a few laps he would have passed both Bottas and Kimi but Vettel then crashed bringing out the SC, this allowed both Bottas and Kimi to pit for fresher tyres, the same compound as Hamilton, Hamilton stayed out.

So Hamilton then had the lead for the restart but was disadvantaged on older tyres, so no the SC helped Bottas and not Hamilton.

If we are talking about coulda woulda shoulda, then yes, you may be right. But it didn't play like that and in the end a team order ensured that win. I am not trying to downplay it, just that as a drive I think he has had better ones.

I think you need to look at the lap times.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton pits on lap 42, on lap 44 he is 16 seconds behind Bottas, by lap 51 he's only 3 seconds behind Bottas. Vettel crashes and the SC is called, Bottas pits for fresh tyres, your claim that Hamilton needed a SC to bunch the field up is unfounded, it was Bottas that benefitted from the SC.

Claims of Bottas losing 20 seconds at his pitstop seem a bit unfounded given that he was 2 seconds in front of Kimi when he pitted and didn't lose position, of course he was always going to lose position to Hamilton.

You clearly started out saying that Hamilton was lucky, Vettel crashed, a lucky SC, Bottas lost 20 seconds in the pits and we're left with Hamilton won because of a team order.

As I have recorded every race for the past few years, I took a look at this and Bottas was stationary for 15.9 seconds and yes, that actually didn't effect him as the safety car then helped him close back up to Hamilton.

But I don't think Hamilton's "weekend" on the whole was perfect. In qualifying, he triggered the problem himself. He bounced the car very heavily over the kerbs in turn 1 and Toto said after qualifying that most of the time, this sort of thing would be caused by a hydraulic leak, but this time after looking at the data, the problem occurred after the jump. With a team boss saying that, I don't think there is much to be denied that Hamilton's mistake triggered his unfortunate starting position. It can be said it was unfortunate, certainly, but it was a fairly bit wallop under the car. Mandonado had the exact same thing happen to his car in Spa 2015 that was caused by driving over a kerb very quickly so this sort of thing can happen.

I also think that he was his win was a little less impressive than it could have been had Bottas not been told to hold back. Many get the impression that Bottas had already fallen too far back to be able to have another chance, but that is partly because the "official" f1 channel seem to delay the radio messages by a huge margin for some reason. Even on the live broadcast which I recorded, I don't think they will be live either. Even on this coverage, the message was broadcast about 4 corners sooner than it was on the F1 channel and it likely will have been announced to Bottas sooner still when he looked to back off. Based on what Coulthard explained with the restart, with Bottas on fresher tyres that were more prepared for the conditions and had more ability to get the heat into them. And this was all before DRS. I think this was quite possibly one of Bottas's missed 2 wins due to team orders this season. But we obviously can't be certain about that.


I would say he was the best driver that day quite easily, but it certainly wasn't his most impressive win, probably not even close to it IMO.

Well I wasn't making a claim for it being his most impressive drive but just disputing some incorrect opinion that Hamilton was lucky in particuar with the SC.

What happened in qualifying is immaterial to lessening the performance on race day.

[pokerman]

The other was Monaco 2019:

Why Monaco 2019?

I suppose it will be for holding Verstappen off, but I continue to be unimpressed by drives like that or Senna's much-ballyhooed defense from Mansell. It's so hard to overtake around Monaco that I just don't think it takes a masterful drive to hold your position.

Yeah Monaco is basically won on the Saturday.

[pokerman]

The other was Monaco 2019:

Why Monaco 2019?

I suppose it will be for holding Verstappen off, but I continue to be unimpressed by drives like that or Senna's much-ballyhooed defense from Mansell. It's so hard to overtake around Monaco that I just don't think it takes a masterful drive to hold your position.

I’d consider it a good win but agree with you pretty much and wouldn’t put it up with his best.

I think that too, he also shouldn't really have had to worry about Verstappen getting by as Verstappen will have had to extend the gap by over 5 seconds to get the win anyway. So Hamilton really didn't need to try that hard.

I think the choice of that video having his 2 most recent of his 5 wins as Germany 2018 and Monaco 2019 is not the best of options to chose from. Nothing bad about his drives on race day, but he's had many better than them.

You do realise that Verstappen was on much better tyres than Hamilton hence the need to hold him off, there was no guarantee that Verstappen would not have won the race if he had got past Hamilton.

[pokerman]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

Exactly which is why I was somewhat incensed at the suggestion that Hamilton was lucky, in particular with the SC which did him no favours at all.

[Siao7]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

Exactly which is why I was somewhat incensed at the suggestion that Hamilton was lucky, in particular with the SC which did him no favours at all.

Of course, incensed is the right word here.

The SC put him in front of Bottas and with Vettel crashing by himself, I referred to an element of luck. All in all there was an element of luck in that the rain came after his pitstop (some teams got it wrong in subsequent pitstops and fit the cars with intermediates, only to have to do another stop to change back), an element of luck in Vettel crashing out.

Also, Mercedes have actually gone on record to say how fortunate Hamilton was that he did not pit behind Bottas and making that last minute dive around the bollard. Bottas's botched pit stop highlights how Mercedes were not ready to pit Bottas, let alone stacking Hamilton behind him (that would have given 100% the race to Bottas). They were also considering to pit him the lap after to cover Kimi, but in the end decided to leave him out.

So if you think that there was no element of luck at all in that race, then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But I wasn't even arguing that as luck is needed everywhere; it was a great drive overall. All I was saying is that we've seen better drives from him.

[pokerman]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

Exactly which is why I was somewhat incensed at the suggestion that Hamilton was lucky, in particular with the SC which did him no favours at all.

Of course, incensed is the right word here.

The SC put him in front of Bottas and with Vettel crashing by himself, I referred to an element of luck. All in all there was an element of luck in that the rain came after his pitstop (some teams got it wrong in subsequent pitstops and fit the cars with intermediates, only to have to do another stop to change back), an element of luck in Vettel crashing out.

Also, Mercedes have actually gone on record to say how fortunate Hamilton was that he did not pit behind Bottas and making that last minute dive around the bollard. Bottas's botched pit stop highlights how Mercedes were not ready to pit Bottas, let alone stacking Hamilton behind him (that would have given 100% the race to Bottas). They were also considering to pit him the lap after to cover Kimi, but in the end decided to leave him out.

So if you think that there was no element of luck at all in that race, then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But I wasn't even arguing that as luck is needed everywhere; it was a great drive overall. All I was saying is that we've seen better drives from him.

Hamilton was 3 seconds behind Bottas after catching him at 1.5 seconds a lap, 3 more laps and he would have been in front but yet again it was the safety car that got Hamlton in front, it was Hamilton that was lucky with the safety car.

Mercedes had no intention of pitting Hamilton onto intermediates, they knew that rain was due but still pitted him onto slicks, they knew the rain wouldn't be enough for intermediates.

I forgot about the pitstop incident with Hamilton, yes Hamilton got lucky that the headless chicken approach when Mercedes need to make a quick decision this time didn't ruin his race, nominally you're deemed to be lucky when you gain advantage not when you narrowly avoid being disadvantaged, Hamilton in fact did well to stop out amongst the in,in,in,in,in, no,out,out,out,out,out,out, no,in,in,in,in,in.

As what's also been posted if not for the SC it could have been seen as Hamilton's greatest drive, the SC was not lucky for Hamilton.

[tootsie323]

Yup - (Germany 2018) it could have been Hamilton's greatest drive. Some may argue that it is his greatest. Some argue otherwise. That's the point - it's subjective.
Reasons stated as an argument against it being his greatest do not suddenly make it ordinary and any element of luck is there to be taken if one gives oneself the opportunity.
Being apparently incensed that some point out such elements of luck is a bit dramatic though. Personally, I felt that Hamilton out himself in a position where he could possibly put enough pressure on the leaders to come through and win. I also acknowledge that, on balance, elements did play out in his favour. Thoroughly deserved, nonetheless.

[Siao7]

Yup - (Germany 2018) it could have been Hamilton's greatest drive. Some may argue that it is his greatest. Some argue otherwise. That's the point - it's subjective.
Reasons stated as an argument against it being his greatest do not suddenly make it ordinary and any element of luck is there to be taken if one gives oneself the opportunity.
Being apparently incensed that some point out such elements of luck is a bit dramatic though. Personally, I felt that Hamilton out himself in a position where he could possibly put enough pressure on the leaders to come through and win. I also acknowledge that, on balance, elements did play out in his favour. Thoroughly deserved, nonetheless.

+1

[Siao7]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

Exactly which is why I was somewhat incensed at the suggestion that Hamilton was lucky, in particular with the SC which did him no favours at all.

Of course, incensed is the right word here.

The SC put him in front of Bottas and with Vettel crashing by himself, I referred to an element of luck. All in all there was an element of luck in that the rain came after his pitstop (some teams got it wrong in subsequent pitstops and fit the cars with intermediates, only to have to do another stop to change back), an element of luck in Vettel crashing out.

Also, Mercedes have actually gone on record to say how fortunate Hamilton was that he did not pit behind Bottas and making that last minute dive around the bollard. Bottas's botched pit stop highlights how Mercedes were not ready to pit Bottas, let alone stacking Hamilton behind him (that would have given 100% the race to Bottas). They were also considering to pit him the lap after to cover Kimi, but in the end decided to leave him out.

So if you think that there was no element of luck at all in that race, then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But I wasn't even arguing that as luck is needed everywhere; it was a great drive overall. All I was saying is that we've seen better drives from him.

Hamilton was 3 seconds behind Bottas after catching him at 1.5 seconds a lap, 3 more laps and he would have been in front but yet again it was the safety car that got Hamlton in front, it was Hamilton that was lucky with the safety car.

Mercedes had no intention of pitting Hamilton onto intermediates, they knew that rain was due but still pitted him onto slicks, they knew the rain wouldn't be enough for intermediates.

I forgot about the pitstop incident with Hamilton, yes Hamilton got lucky that the headless chicken approach when Mercedes need to make a quick decision this time didn't ruin his race, nominally you're deemed to be lucky when you gain advantage not when you narrowly avoid being disadvantaged, Hamilton in fact did well to stop out amongst the in,in,in,in,in, no,out,out,out,out,out,out, no,in,in,in,in,in.

As what's also been posted if not for the SC it could have been seen as Hamilton's greatest drive, the SC was not lucky for Hamilton.

I think I'll stop talking all things Hamilton with you, as you get such red mist that it is not even funny.

I didn't say it was only due to the SC that Hamilton got ahead of Bottas, his speed in the ultrasofts was amazing before the SC and everyone agrees to that. He would have caught and pass Bottas if not for the SC.

It was, however, what happened; Bottas was ahead when the SC came out and he pitted, putting Hamilton ahead. A factual statement and not a dig at Hamilton.

Glad that you used the word luck too, maybe you can see where I was coming from. Maybe

[pokerman]

Yup - (Germany 2018) it could have been Hamilton's greatest drive. Some may argue that it is his greatest. Some argue otherwise. That's the point - it's subjective.
Reasons stated as an argument against it being his greatest do not suddenly make it ordinary and any element of luck is there to be taken if one gives oneself the opportunity.
Being apparently incensed that some point out such elements of luck is a bit dramatic though. Personally, I felt that Hamilton out himself in a position where he could possibly put enough pressure on the leaders to come through and win. I also acknowledge that, on balance, elements did play out in his favour. Thoroughly deserved, nonetheless.

Yes it could have been his greatest drive if the safety car had not been called which took away him passing both Kimi and Bottas in the next few laps, I still fail to see how Hamilton was lucky.

[pokerman]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

Exactly which is why I was somewhat incensed at the suggestion that Hamilton was lucky, in particular with the SC which did him no favours at all.

Of course, incensed is the right word here.

The SC put him in front of Bottas and with Vettel crashing by himself, I referred to an element of luck. All in all there was an element of luck in that the rain came after his pitstop (some teams got it wrong in subsequent pitstops and fit the cars with intermediates, only to have to do another stop to change back), an element of luck in Vettel crashing out.

Also, Mercedes have actually gone on record to say how fortunate Hamilton was that he did not pit behind Bottas and making that last minute dive around the bollard. Bottas's botched pit stop highlights how Mercedes were not ready to pit Bottas, let alone stacking Hamilton behind him (that would have given 100% the race to Bottas). They were also considering to pit him the lap after to cover Kimi, but in the end decided to leave him out.

So if you think that there was no element of luck at all in that race, then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But I wasn't even arguing that as luck is needed everywhere; it was a great drive overall. All I was saying is that we've seen better drives from him.

Hamilton was 3 seconds behind Bottas after catching him at 1.5 seconds a lap, 3 more laps and he would have been in front but yet again it was the safety car that got Hamlton in front, it was Hamilton that was lucky with the safety car.

Mercedes had no intention of pitting Hamilton onto intermediates, they knew that rain was due but still pitted him onto slicks, they knew the rain wouldn't be enough for intermediates.

I forgot about the pitstop incident with Hamilton, yes Hamilton got lucky that the headless chicken approach when Mercedes need to make a quick decision this time didn't ruin his race, nominally you're deemed to be lucky when you gain advantage not when you narrowly avoid being disadvantaged, Hamilton in fact did well to stop out amongst the in,in,in,in,in, no,out,out,out,out,out,out, no,in,in,in,in,in.

As what's also been posted if not for the SC it could have been seen as Hamilton's greatest drive, the SC was not lucky for Hamilton.

I think I'll stop talking all things Hamilton with you, as you get such red mist that it is not even funny.

I didn't say it was only due to the SC that Hamilton got ahead of Bottas, his speed in the ultrasofts was amazing before the SC and everyone agrees to that. He would have caught and pass Bottas if not for the SC.

It was, however, what happened; Bottas was ahead when the SC came out and he pitted, putting Hamilton ahead. A factual statement and not a dig at Hamilton.

Glad that you used the word luck too, maybe you can see where I was coming from. Maybe

I clearly responded to your first post that said that Hamilton benefitted from the SC which bunched the field up when Hamilton in fact was only 3 seconds behind Bottas, you even threw in Bottas losing 20 seconds in the pits which had no affect on the race, all to paint a picture of Hamilton being fortunate, I suspect orginally that you didn't really know the circumstances of the race.

[Siao7]

Exactly which is why I was somewhat incensed at the suggestion that Hamilton was lucky, in particular with the SC which did him no favours at all.

Of course, incensed is the right word here.

The SC put him in front of Bottas and with Vettel crashing by himself, I referred to an element of luck. All in all there was an element of luck in that the rain came after his pitstop (some teams got it wrong in subsequent pitstops and fit the cars with intermediates, only to have to do another stop to change back), an element of luck in Vettel crashing out.

Also, Mercedes have actually gone on record to say how fortunate Hamilton was that he did not pit behind Bottas and making that last minute dive around the bollard. Bottas's botched pit stop highlights how Mercedes were not ready to pit Bottas, let alone stacking Hamilton behind him (that would have given 100% the race to Bottas). They were also considering to pit him the lap after to cover Kimi, but in the end decided to leave him out.

So if you think that there was no element of luck at all in that race, then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But I wasn't even arguing that as luck is needed everywhere; it was a great drive overall. All I was saying is that we've seen better drives from him.

Hamilton was 3 seconds behind Bottas after catching him at 1.5 seconds a lap, 3 more laps and he would have been in front but yet again it was the safety car that got Hamlton in front, it was Hamilton that was lucky with the safety car.

Mercedes had no intention of pitting Hamilton onto intermediates, they knew that rain was due but still pitted him onto slicks, they knew the rain wouldn't be enough for intermediates.

I forgot about the pitstop incident with Hamilton, yes Hamilton got lucky that the headless chicken approach when Mercedes need to make a quick decision this time didn't ruin his race, nominally you're deemed to be lucky when you gain advantage not when you narrowly avoid being disadvantaged, Hamilton in fact did well to stop out amongst the in,in,in,in,in, no,out,out,out,out,out,out, no,in,in,in,in,in.

As what's also been posted if not for the SC it could have been seen as Hamilton's greatest drive, the SC was not lucky for Hamilton.

I think I'll stop talking all things Hamilton with you, as you get such red mist that it is not even funny.

I didn't say it was only due to the SC that Hamilton got ahead of Bottas, his speed in the ultrasofts was amazing before the SC and everyone agrees to that. He would have caught and pass Bottas if not for the SC.

It was, however, what happened; Bottas was ahead when the SC came out and he pitted, putting Hamilton ahead. A factual statement and not a dig at Hamilton.

Glad that you used the word luck too, maybe you can see where I was coming from. Maybe

I clearly responded to your first post that said that Hamilton benefitted from the SC which bunched the field up when Hamilton in fact was only 3 seconds behind Bottas, you even threw in Bottas losing 20 seconds in the pits which had no affect on the race, all to paint a picture of Hamilton being fortunate, I suspect orginally that you didn't really know the circumstances of the race.

I didn't say that Bottas lost his place through a botched pit stop. I explained it, originally Hamilton was supposed to be stacked behind the botched pit stop from Bottas. It would have given the race to Bottas. But Hamilton was lucky not to pit in the end, so he stayed in front. That played in his hands, how is this difficult to understand?

Bottas's comments after the race:

"But unfortunately I was a bit unlucky as the Safety Car did not come at an ideal time for me in terms of tyre age.

That’s where I lost the race. Lewis had a great comeback and drove a mega race – probably one of his best. In the end he was a bit more lucky with the Safety Car timing than I was.”

Anyway, I've had enough of this, it is pointless to argue

[Alienturnedhuman]

Hamilton has won more races than the average F1 driver who has competed in at least 10 races has started. (Which is around 70 starts)

(I added this criteria to filter out all the people who technically count as an F1 racer because they competed in the Indy 500, and the drivers who temporarily filled in)

[Mort Canard]

As for Germany 2018, is it not possible that Hamilton was "robbed" of what otherwise would have been his most spectacular and iconic win due to Vettel's crash and the ensuing safety car? Was he on his way to destroying his competitors after starting 14th, with immense tyre management and pace?

Was the spectacle somewhat spoiled?

[KingVoid]

At Germany 2018 Hamilton benefited massively from not only being on the freshest tyres of the top 5, but on tyres that were two steps softer than the four drivers ahead of him. We saw what happened last weekend with Sainz, he overtook both Mercedes cars thanks to having softer tyres in the damp conditions. It’s always a massive advantage to be on a softer compound in conditions where keeping heat in your tyres is critical.

Monza 2018 was the more impressive drive

[Invade]

I was very impressed with Monza 2018 at the time but remember receiving pushback. Or it might just be my vague memory at, I think it was Fiki (can't remember), thinking Kimi had a better drive.

[pokerman]

Of course, incensed is the right word here.

The SC put him in front of Bottas and with Vettel crashing by himself, I referred to an element of luck. All in all there was an element of luck in that the rain came after his pitstop (some teams got it wrong in subsequent pitstops and fit the cars with intermediates, only to have to do another stop to change back), an element of luck in Vettel crashing out.

Also, Mercedes have actually gone on record to say how fortunate Hamilton was that he did not pit behind Bottas and making that last minute dive around the bollard. Bottas's botched pit stop highlights how Mercedes were not ready to pit Bottas, let alone stacking Hamilton behind him (that would have given 100% the race to Bottas). They were also considering to pit him the lap after to cover Kimi, but in the end decided to leave him out.

So if you think that there was no element of luck at all in that race, then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

But I wasn't even arguing that as luck is needed everywhere; it was a great drive overall. All I was saying is that we've seen better drives from him.

Hamilton was 3 seconds behind Bottas after catching him at 1.5 seconds a lap, 3 more laps and he would have been in front but yet again it was the safety car that got Hamlton in front, it was Hamilton that was lucky with the safety car.

Mercedes had no intention of pitting Hamilton onto intermediates, they knew that rain was due but still pitted him onto slicks, they knew the rain wouldn't be enough for intermediates.

I forgot about the pitstop incident with Hamilton, yes Hamilton got lucky that the headless chicken approach when Mercedes need to make a quick decision this time didn't ruin his race, nominally you're deemed to be lucky when you gain advantage not when you narrowly avoid being disadvantaged, Hamilton in fact did well to stop out amongst the in,in,in,in,in, no,out,out,out,out,out,out, no,in,in,in,in,in.

As what's also been posted if not for the SC it could have been seen as Hamilton's greatest drive, the SC was not lucky for Hamilton.

I think I'll stop talking all things Hamilton with you, as you get such red mist that it is not even funny.

I didn't say it was only due to the SC that Hamilton got ahead of Bottas, his speed in the ultrasofts was amazing before the SC and everyone agrees to that. He would have caught and pass Bottas if not for the SC.

It was, however, what happened; Bottas was ahead when the SC came out and he pitted, putting Hamilton ahead. A factual statement and not a dig at Hamilton.

Glad that you used the word luck too, maybe you can see where I was coming from. Maybe

I clearly responded to your first post that said that Hamilton benefitted from the SC which bunched the field up when Hamilton in fact was only 3 seconds behind Bottas, you even threw in Bottas losing 20 seconds in the pits which had no affect on the race, all to paint a picture of Hamilton being fortunate, I suspect orginally that you didn't really know the circumstances of the race.

I didn't say that Bottas lost his place through a botched pit stop. I explained it, originally Hamilton was supposed to be stacked behind the botched pit stop from Bottas. It would have given the race to Bottas. But Hamilton was lucky not to pit in the end, so he stayed in front. That played in his hands, how is this difficult to understand?

Bottas's comments after the race:

"But unfortunately I was a bit unlucky as the Safety Car did not come at an ideal time for me in terms of tyre age.

That’s where I lost the race. Lewis had a great comeback and drove a mega race – probably one of his best. In the end he was a bit more lucky with the Safety Car timing than I was.”

Anyway, I've had enough of this, it is pointless to argue

Your first statement wasn't contained within your original post, as for Bottas do you want to believe him or what was actually going to happen in the race without the safety car.

[pokerman]

At Germany 2018 Hamilton benefited massively from not only being on the freshest tyres of the top 5, but on tyres that were two steps softer than the four drivers ahead of him. We saw what happened last weekend with Sainz, he overtook both Mercedes cars thanks to having softer tyres in the damp conditions. It’s always a massive advantage to be on a softer compound in conditions where keeping heat in your tyres is critical.

Monza 2018 was the more impressive drive

Yes he did but he also created the tyre offset by driving the first 42 laps on the harder/slower tyre, that was always the race plan to come back faster later in the race.

[Siao7]

Hamilton was 3 seconds behind Bottas after catching him at 1.5 seconds a lap, 3 more laps and he would have been in front but yet again it was the safety car that got Hamlton in front, it was Hamilton that was lucky with the safety car.

Mercedes had no intention of pitting Hamilton onto intermediates, they knew that rain was due but still pitted him onto slicks, they knew the rain wouldn't be enough for intermediates.

I forgot about the pitstop incident with Hamilton, yes Hamilton got lucky that the headless chicken approach when Mercedes need to make a quick decision this time didn't ruin his race, nominally you're deemed to be lucky when you gain advantage not when you narrowly avoid being disadvantaged, Hamilton in fact did well to stop out amongst the in,in,in,in,in, no,out,out,out,out,out,out, no,in,in,in,in,in.

As what's also been posted if not for the SC it could have been seen as Hamilton's greatest drive, the SC was not lucky for Hamilton.

I think I'll stop talking all things Hamilton with you, as you get such red mist that it is not even funny.

I didn't say it was only due to the SC that Hamilton got ahead of Bottas, his speed in the ultrasofts was amazing before the SC and everyone agrees to that. He would have caught and pass Bottas if not for the SC.

It was, however, what happened; Bottas was ahead when the SC came out and he pitted, putting Hamilton ahead. A factual statement and not a dig at Hamilton.

Glad that you used the word luck too, maybe you can see where I was coming from. Maybe

I clearly responded to your first post that said that Hamilton benefitted from the SC which bunched the field up when Hamilton in fact was only 3 seconds behind Bottas, you even threw in Bottas losing 20 seconds in the pits which had no affect on the race, all to paint a picture of Hamilton being fortunate, I suspect orginally that you didn't really know the circumstances of the race.

I didn't say that Bottas lost his place through a botched pit stop. I explained it, originally Hamilton was supposed to be stacked behind the botched pit stop from Bottas. It would have given the race to Bottas. But Hamilton was lucky not to pit in the end, so he stayed in front. That played in his hands, how is this difficult to understand?

Bottas's comments after the race:

"But unfortunately I was a bit unlucky as the Safety Car did not come at an ideal time for me in terms of tyre age.

That’s where I lost the race. Lewis had a great comeback and drove a mega race – probably one of his best. In the end he was a bit more lucky with the Safety Car timing than I was.”

Anyway, I've had enough of this, it is pointless to argue

Your first statement wasn't contained within your original post, as for Bottas do you want to believe him or what was actually going to happen in the race without the safety car.

Oh give it up man, you are trying to be as pedantic as possible to win an argument that wasn't even an argument in the first place. I will actually follow my advice and stop talking about this now

[BMWSauber84]

Hamilton sounding not entirely sure that he'll be in formula one next year. Mischief making, contract negotiation tactics, or genuine possiblity?

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/01/ham ... year-2021/

[JN23]

Hamilton sounding not entirely sure that he'll be in formula one next year. Mischief making, contract negotiation tactics, or genuine possiblity?

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/01/ham ... year-2021/

90% negotiation, 5% mischief, 5% genuine possibility in my (often wrong) opinion.