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KingVoid wrote:I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Yes and your rating is to be placed above all. You are totally informed and you are totally objective right? Let's not pretend that your every post regarding Hamilton isn't primarily designed to take away from him.

At the end of the day, the strength of Barrichello is irrelevant anyway. The fact is that he was never in competition with Michael. The most glaring proof of this was Austria 2002; when Rubens was 20 seconds up the road and was ordered to pull over to let Michael by. It was the 6th race of the season and Michael had won the first 5 and Ferrari still wouldn't allow Rubends to win. Michael had first dibs on parts, strategy and the bottom line was that he was a true #1 driver. Not like the silly claims we see today. Both cars were used to help Michael win and not just late in the year; from round 1.

JN23 wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:It's not Hamilton's fault. He is hardly going to say ''no I don't want a car that is capable of winning >10 races a season - every season'' - and he is absolutely capitalising on it.

I think unlike 2004, and this is the big difference for me, there is a feeling that we've been denied a truely great era simply by the way things have been. Money, or rather the balance of money, has ruined the sport. It's became stale, boring, predictable.

We've had a crop of some fantastic drivers over the last decade, but we haven't seen that much legendary action. Indeed the 2010's has IMHO been the worst decade - and by quite a margin.

TBH, a bit like the money has ruined football, and the internet has taken away any wonder. Maybe I am just becoming old, but I generally do think the fun has been sapped out things in general and things were more enjoyable in the pre-internet (or rather smart phone) era.

2010 we had four drivers going into the final race able to win, 2012 was exciting generally and a thrilling decider between Alonso and Vettel in Brazil, a couple of great battles between Hamilton and Rosberg in 2014 and 2016. It's a shame that the 2017/18 battles didn't play out over a full season as they looked like they could be crackers going into the summer break.

I don't think it's been that bad has it? I get that we've only had three world champions and two constructors champions but I don't quite get all the negativity.

2014 onward is the biggest period of stability the sport has ever had. Back in 2004 I couldn't predict the 3 fastest cars for the next race. In 2019 I can tell you what the 3 fastest cars will be in 12 months time with almost absolute certainty.

It's not just one thing TBF. If you wrote a list of all the things that caused excitement in F1 20 years ago you would see that a lot of those things have now been watered down or are gone completely. Not racing in the wet, tracks being made far less punishing, cars not being able to follow each other closely, ebb and flow of team performance, unpredictability with reliability, new teams coming regularly to the grid. Sadly I could go on and on.

sandman1347 wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:It's not Hamilton's fault. He is hardly going to say ''no I don't want a car that is capable of winning >10 races a season - every season''.

I think unlike 2004, there is a feeling that we've been denied a truely great era simply by the way things have been. Money, or rather the balance of money, has ruined the sport. It's became stale, boring, predictable.

We've had a crop of some fantastic drivers over the last decade, but we haven't seen that much legendary action. Indeed the 2010's has IMHO been the worst decade - and by quite a margin.

TBH, a bit like the money has ruined football, and the internet has taken away any wonder. Maybe I am just becoming old, but I generally do think the fun has been sapped out things in general and things were more enjoyable in the pre-internet (or rather smart phone) era.

You've got a fuzzy memory. Back in 2004 there was even more backlash and claims of boredom and the sport being ruined. You didn't have overtaking back then because it was pre-DRS and, unlike Hamilton, Michael did not have to compete with his teammates. So years where the Ferrari was dominant meant that the WDC was 100% a foregone conclusion. The only difference is that we are now in the drama-queen era of fans who overreact to pretty much everything.

2004 was an awful season in terms of sport, I'm close between that and 2013 as the worst of my time watching F1 (this is season 28). I probably would give it to 2004 simply down to the fact it was a foregone conclusion early on, rather than 2013 which was a bit of a mirror image - although equally as dull. I think this season has the potential to be running them close as well, but we will see how it goes - I can't help but feel Hamilton is finding his stride and Bottas purple patch is over.

I don't think it's a case of being a drama queen for many - I think many think F1 is in a bad way and has been in a bad way for a long long time. The issues aren't getting better and consistently being failed to be addressed. TBH the rot stems way back, certainly encompassing Schumachers era - yip a few sticking plaster solutions that fixed things for a bit, but the trends and ever tightening circle and something has to give or this sport will die.

I don't blame Hamilton or any driver - they are only drivers - and Hamilton is a fantastic one.

sandman1347 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Yes and your rating is to be placed above all. You are totally informed and you are totally objective right? Let's not pretend that your every post regarding Hamilton isn't primarily designed to take away from him.

Yeah, and I would say my rating is fairly accurate. Bottas is probably a bit quicker in qualifying. Barrichello had better wheel-to-wheel racecraft and was better in the rain.

At the end of the day, the strength of Barrichello is irrelevant anyway. The fact is that he was never in competition with Michael. The most glaring proof of this was Austria 2002; when Rubens was 20 seconds up the road and was ordered to pull over to let Michael by. It was the 6th race of the season and Michael had won the first 5 and Ferrari still wouldn't allow Rubends to win. Michael had first dibs on parts, strategy and the bottom line was that he was a true #1 driver. Not like the silly claims we see today. Both cars were used to help Michael win and not just late in the year; from round 1.

You were talking about 2004, not 2002. Team orders were banned in 2004. I don't recall a single race in 2004 where Rubens had to let Michael through (if you remember one, let me know).

KingVoid wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

KingVoid wrote:I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Yes and your rating is to be placed above all. You are totally informed and you are totally objective right? Let's not pretend that your every post regarding Hamilton isn't primarily designed to take away from him.

Yeah, and I would say my rating is fairly accurate. Bottas is probably a bit quicker in qualifying. Barrichello had better wheel-to-wheel racecraft and was better in the rain.

At the end of the day, the strength of Barrichello is irrelevant anyway. The fact is that he was never in competition with Michael. The most glaring proof of this was Austria 2002; when Rubens was 20 seconds up the road and was ordered to pull over to let Michael by. It was the 6th race of the season and Michael had won the first 5 and Ferrari still wouldn't allow Rubends to win. Michael had first dibs on parts, strategy and the bottom line was that he was a true #1 driver. Not like the silly claims we see today. Both cars were used to help Michael win and not just late in the year; from round 1.

You were talking about 2004, not 2002. Team orders were banned in 2004. I don't recall a single race in 2004 where Rubens had to let Michael through (if you remember one, let me know).

Again; it's not just about team orders. Rubens was not actually in competition with Michael. So long as they were teammates, he was never going to win a title. The allocation of parts, the strategy and every single aspect of Ferrari's approach was focused on Michael winning the title. Did you not watch F1 back then?

KingVoid wrote:I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Not only was Schumacher quicker than Barrichello but Schumacher always had the bulletproof Ferrari, that made him impossible to beat over a season for Rubens. If the reliability/luck was switched in 2002, Rubens likely would have been World Champion. He had 4 mechanical DNFs and one none fault DNF collision at the start in Australia when he got rear ended from the lead. Schumachers had 0 all season.

The same way Rosberg battled - although he was a lot closer pace wise than Rubens - for a title in 2014 and took one in 2016.

Bottas can likewise fight for the title if Hamilton starts to break down again like 2016.

I wonder for how long Lewis can remain this motivated. He seems to want it just as badly as ever and is maintaining top focus and fine form. He certainly wants to maximise a very rare window of huge opportunity. Who stops Hamilton/Mercedes?

Invade wrote:I wonder for how long Lewis can remain this motivated. He seems to want it just as badly as ever and is maintaining top focus and fine form. He certainly wants to maximise a very rare window of huge opportunity. Who stops Hamilton/Mercedes?

Both good questions. To the first question I would say that he will probably remain motivated so long as he has the team and car to fight for the championship. From here on out though, the next time he finds himself in a car that is nowhere relative to the leaders, he will almost certainly decide to walk away.

To the second question; I think you should start a poll. It's honestly a good question. Who will be the next WDC not named Hamilton? In 2017, I would have said Vettel. It seemed that Ferrari had come back into form and that he would eventually find himself at the top of the pile again. Now I'm not so sure about that. Ferrari have taken a step backwards this year and even when they had the car to win; he didn't get it done.

Perhaps Max. His driving is certainly top notch and Red Bull are actually struggling with their chassis right now more than their engine! I have to imagine that his time is almost here. Even if Red Bull don't get there; I have to believe that both Ferrari and Mercedes have an interest in securing his services. Maybe Charles. He has certainly shown flashes of brilliance (in addition to newby mistakes). Personally I don't see Bottas winning the title. He's not within the margin of Lewis to where luck can get him there.

Perhaps an even better question is; when will someone else win the title? It certainly isn't looking like this year and next year, with stable regs, would you bet against Hamilton to be WDC? I woudln't. Most people point to 2021 btu they pointed to this year and they also pointed to 2017. Mercedes have form when it comes to getting the new regs right. I almost hope that Lewis decides to shake things up and try going to Ferrari, if for no reason other than that it would be interesting.

Badgeronimous wrote: 2004 was an awful season in terms of sport

Imagine this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Form ... ampionship

Button was best of the rest and his best position was 2nd - only 4 times. I don't remember the specifics but out of those 4 times.. the Ferrari drivers had: Retired, 6th, 12th, 12th under their belts.... which usually translates to mistakes/problems.

People really don't know what a boring season is if they forget about this year.

Teddy007 wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote: 2004 was an awful season in terms of sport

Imagine this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Form ... ampionship

Button was best of the rest and his best position was 2nd - only 4 times. I don't remember the specifics but out of those 4 times.. the Ferrari drivers had: Retired, 6th, 12th, 12th under their belts.... which usually translates to mistakes/problems.

People really don't know what a boring season is if they forget about this year.

2004 actually wasn't too bad IMO. There were a few really decent races. I found 2002 much worse.

Monaco
USA
France
Belgium
Italy
China

All good grand prix's.

I found the actual races in 2015 and 2016 much more dull even if the championship battle was actually more exciting.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote: 2004 was an awful season in terms of sport

Imagine this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Form ... ampionship

Button was best of the rest and his best position was 2nd - only 4 times. I don't remember the specifics but out of those 4 times.. the Ferrari drivers had: Retired, 6th, 12th, 12th under their belts.... which usually translates to mistakes/problems.

People really don't know what a boring season is if they forget about this year.

2004 actually wasn't too bad IMO. There were a few really decent races. I found 2002 much worse.

Monaco
USA
France
Belgium
Italy
China

All good grand prix's.

I found the actual races in 2015 and 2016 much more dull even if the championship battle was actually more exciting.

The British and US GPs in 2015 were actually classics. Races like Austria and Silverstone in 2016 were also very entertaining. 2004, for me, was not an exciting season at all.

At this point I'd almost be surprised if Hamilton doesn't at least equal the record for wins in a season this year. He has the measure of Bottas by a fairly comfortable margin and Mercedes seem to have the measure of the rest of the field comfortably as well. Austria will be another power circuit so we'll see if Ferrari can challenge them there but it's looking like this season will be a breeze for Lewis.

sandman1347 wrote:At this point I'd almost be surprised if Hamilton doesn't at least equal the record for wins in a season this year. He has the measure of Bottas by a fairly comfortable margin and Mercedes seem to have the measure of the rest of the field comfortably as well. Austria will be another power circuit so we'll see if Ferrari can challenge them there but it's looking like this season will be a breeze for Lewis.

Only 12 behind.

Its only a matter of time.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote: 2004 was an awful season in terms of sport

Imagine this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Form ... ampionship

Button was best of the rest and his best position was 2nd - only 4 times. I don't remember the specifics but out of those 4 times.. the Ferrari drivers had: Retired, 6th, 12th, 12th under their belts.... which usually translates to mistakes/problems.

People really don't know what a boring season is if they forget about this year.

2004 actually wasn't too bad IMO. There were a few really decent races. I found 2002 much worse.

Monaco
USA
France
Belgium
Italy
China

All good grand prix's.

I found the actual races in 2015 and 2016 much more dull even if the championship battle was actually more exciting.

The British and US GPs in 2015 were actually classics. Races like Austria and Silverstone in 2016 were also very entertaining. 2004, for me, was not an exciting season at all.

Sure, they were the odd good races in 2015 and 2016. 2004 in my opinion had more.

Clarky wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:At this point I'd almost be surprised if Hamilton doesn't at least equal the record for wins in a season this year. He has the measure of Bottas by a fairly comfortable margin and Mercedes seem to have the measure of the rest of the field comfortably as well. Austria will be another power circuit so we'll see if Ferrari can challenge them there but it's looking like this season will be a breeze for Lewis.

Only 12 behind.

Its only a matter of time.

I was referring to 13 wins in a season; not 91 wins in a career. The career mark is almost a formality at this point.

Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Not sure I'm following shoot999. Were Lauda/Hunt ever team mates?

I think he means all great athletes / sportsmen thrive on a legendary rivalry.

Hamilton is adding WDCs without any real fight. Not entirely his fault, but it robs us from some entertainment and we could use a proper F1 rivalry.

We haven't had one for a while...

FrusEldar wrote:I think he means all great athletes / sportsmen thrive on a legendary rivalry.

Hamilton is adding WDCs without any real fight. Not entirely his fault, but it robs us from some entertainment and we could use a proper F1 rivalry.

We haven't had one for a while...

Siao7 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Not sure I'm following shoot999. Were Lauda/Hunt ever team mates?

I think that shoot999 was referring to the subject that Hamilton does not have real rival to be compared to, which is not necessarily a team mate.

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Who can forget Hamilton/Alonso 2007 and let's not forget Vettel is a 4 times WDC, the fight for five last year was a situation we may never see again?

Apologies, I took it as having a strong team mate in the same car.

If that's the case, then I am perplexed a bit, as Schumacher had (arguably I guess) Hakkinen as a main rival for years and also the super Williams's in the 90's (in whoever's hands!).

And who did Clark have as a great rival? He's also rated as a GOAT.

I'm sorry if I'm going off topic in the wrong thread, it is a very interesting discussion

pokerman wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Who can forget Hamilton/Alonso 2007 and let's not forget Vettel is a 4 times WDC, the fight for five last year was a situation we may never see again?

The fight in the last five years was between Hamilton and a guy driving like a newbie in fairness... You can't really say that Vettel gave Hamilton a proper race for his money, he spun every time Hamilton was within 2m of his car!

pokerman wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Who can forget Hamilton/Alonso 2007 and let's not forget Vettel is a 4 times WDC, the fight for five last year was a situation we may never see again?

Not denying its an impressive CV, not least the three WDCs as teammates. And I don't think Hamilton has anything more to prove. But still I and I expect many others are still hankering to see two great rivals fighting a season long battle at the front. Unfortunately I don't see Seb now filling that spot. Leclerc or Max? The old guard v the new?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Who can forget Hamilton/Alonso 2007 and let's not forget Vettel is a 4 times WDC, the fight for five last year was a situation we may never see again?

The fight in the last five years was between Hamilton and a guy driving like a newbie in fairness... You can't really say that Vettel gave Hamilton a proper race for his money, he spun every time Hamilton was within 2m of his car!

History might play out differently though, didn't the Hunt/Lauda itself only really last 1 year, the only year that Hunt was in contention for the title?

Then we have the Alonso/Hamilton rivalry in 2007 including spygate, they might make a film about that as well?

shoot999 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Who can forget Hamilton/Alonso 2007 and let's not forget Vettel is a 4 times WDC, the fight for five last year was a situation we may never see again?

Not denying its an impressive CV, not least the three WDCs as teammates. And I don't think Hamilton has anything more to prove. But still I and I expect many others are still hankering to see two great rivals fighting a season long battle at the front. Unfortunately I don't see Seb now filling that spot. Leclerc or Max? The old guard v the new?

Well like I've said the Hunt/Lauda rivalry only lasted 1 year in terms of fighting for the title.

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Who can forget Hamilton/Alonso 2007 and let's not forget Vettel is a 4 times WDC, the fight for five last year was a situation we may never see again?

The fight in the last five years was between Hamilton and a guy driving like a newbie in fairness... You can't really say that Vettel gave Hamilton a proper race for his money, he spun every time Hamilton was within 2m of his car!

History might play out differently though, didn't the Hunt/Lauda itself only really last 1 year, the only year that Hunt was in contention for the title?

Then we have the Alonso/Hamilton rivalry in 2007 including spygate, they might make a film about that as well?

I don't know. And I wasn't the one who mentioned the Hunt/Lauda example. If I'm not mistaken though it was a "rivalry" that lasted a few years, since they raced before F1, wasn't it?

Hamilton is making me more nostalgic for Schumacher every time he keys his microphone to complain about the great challenges he faces driving the best car on the same tires and track as his competitors. He's a superb driver, but not much of a man. How I long for the days when Ross Brawn could tell Michael Schumacher that he needed to make up 25 seconds in 19 laps and Schumacher simply responded, "Ok." What would Hamilton do if he were ever asked to outdrive his opponents with an inferior car and strategy when he cries like a baby over having to merely not drive worse than his competition?

Todd wrote:Hamilton is making me more nostalgic for Schumacher every time he keys his microphone to complain about the great challenges he faces driving the best car on the same tires and track as his competitors. He's a superb driver, but not much of a man. How I long for the days when Ross Brawn could tell Michael Schumacher that he needed to make up 25 seconds in 19 laps and Schumacher simply responded, "Ok." What would Hamilton do if he were ever asked to outdrive his opponents with an inferior car and strategy when he cries like a baby over having to merely not drive worse than his competition?

I agree with you to a point, and I'm sure others will too. But I suspect that this is not a topic to be discussed in the official Hamilton thread

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

Todd wrote:Hamilton is making me more nostalgic for Schumacher every time he keys his microphone to complain about the great challenges he faces driving the best car on the same tires and track as his competitors. He's a superb driver, but not much of a man. How I long for the days when Ross Brawn could tell Michael Schumacher that he needed to make up 25 seconds in 19 laps and Schumacher simply responded, "Ok." What would Hamilton do if he were ever asked to outdrive his opponents with an inferior car and strategy when he cries like a baby over having to merely not drive worse than his competition?

This is an extremely bitter and salty comment. So we're now making Michael into the perfect driver, is that it? We're also going to suggest that he had better character? Really? What Hamilton would NOT do is have his teammate moved out of his way during the 6th race of the season when he had already won the first 5. He also wouldn't intentionally take his opponents out of a race in order to try to win the championship as Michael did multiple times.

You seem to want to claim that Michael was stronger mentally, yet Michael struggled quite badly under pressure; almost cost himself the title in 2003 and, again, would resort to cheating when under pressure in the last race rather than trusting in his ability to win fair and square. Hamilton has handled pressure extremely well in his prime years and has never resorted to cheating/dirty driving in order to try to win.

Laughable comment.

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

I disagree, firstly the rivalries are not between team mates (and Schumacher's team mates were allowed to race him on that). And secondly, if you think that Vettel gave Hamilton a better rivalry the last few years than the fights that Schumacher had with the Williams's or with Hakkinen, then I think we can't have a serious conversation really.

Shumacher had major rivalries with Hill and Hakkinen. With a lot more intensity than Hamilton has had with Vettel. It's not Hamilton's fault at all but the great rivalry for him should have been Vettel but for various reasons it's just not materialised. They haven't had a season long championship battle since 2010.

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

Got to love the way you go off on one when you completely miss the point, and refute statements that nobody has made in the first place. And why would I name you who has had stronger teammates? When I said he has an impressive CV, not least 3 WDC teammates; did not that give you a clue how high I rate him in that regard?

But hell, if you think Hamilton has had a singular rivalry to match the Hunt/Lauda one, or the Prost/Senna one, I can't wait to see the inevitably movie. Now who is the other driver in this movie that everyone will want to see?

Siao7 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

I disagree, firstly the rivalries are not between team mates (and Schumacher's team mates were allowed to race him on that). And secondly, if you think that Vettel gave Hamilton a better rivalry the last few years than the fights that Schumacher had with the Williams's or with Hakkinen, then I think we can't have a serious conversation really.

No they were not. There is no real debate about whether Michael's teammates were racing him. They were not. Both at Benetton and Ferrari, both cars were used to help Michael win. He always had the better fuel strategy and preference on parts, etc. None of Michael's teammates had equal status until Rosberg where literally all of Hamilton's teammates (except Kovaleinen) had equal status.

As for the idea that rivalries cannot be between teammates; I don't understand what you mean there. The most intense rivalries are between teammates. The greatest rivalry in F1 history was between Senna and Prost at McLaren. What makes for a better rivalry than having two elite drivers in identical machinery? Maybe you can explain what you mean by that?

Hamilton has been in many close battles for the championship that came down to the wire. His first two years at McLaren were decided in the final race by a single point. He was also still alive going into Abu Dhabi in 2010. Then you have the battles with Rosberg in 2014 and 2016.

You want to claim that Michael had better rivalries with Williams but he ended two of those years by intentionally crashing his opponent out of the race. Are we supposed to put that on a pedestal? Against Mika, there was never a title that came down to the last race (although I did appreciate this battle).

shoot999 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

Got to love the way you go off on one when you completely miss the point, and refute statements that nobody has made in the first place. And why would I name you who has had stronger teammates? When I said he has an impressive CV, not least 3 WDC teammates; did not that give you a clue how high I rate him in that regard?

But hell, if you think Hamilton has had a singular rivalry to match the Hunt/Lauda one, or the Prost/Senna one, I can't wait to see the inevitably movie. Now who is the other driver in this movie that everyone will want to see?

First of all, calm down. I wasn't trying to criticize you; just the idea that Hamilton didn't face strong rivals. I think I understand what you meant a lot better now. You are suggesting that there is no single driver who you immediately think of as a main rival to Lewis. That's somewhat true, although I think most people would generally say that it's Vettel.

Todd wrote:Hamilton is making me more nostalgic for Schumacher every time he keys his microphone to complain about the great challenges he faces driving the best car on the same tires and track as his competitors. He's a superb driver, but not much of a man. How I long for the days when Ross Brawn could tell Michael Schumacher that he needed to make up 25 seconds in 19 laps and Schumacher simply responded, "Ok." What would Hamilton do if he were ever asked to outdrive his opponents with an inferior car and strategy when he cries like a baby over having to merely not drive worse than his competition?

You long for the days when Schumacher drove around 1.3 seconds off the pace? Just cruising around until Ross told him to go faster.

sandman1347 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

I disagree, firstly the rivalries are not between team mates (and Schumacher's team mates were allowed to race him on that). And secondly, if you think that Vettel gave Hamilton a better rivalry the last few years than the fights that Schumacher had with the Williams's or with Hakkinen, then I think we can't have a serious conversation really.

No they were not. There is no real debate about whether Michael's teammates were racing him. They were not. Both at Benetton and Ferrari, both cars were used to help Michael win. He always had the better fuel strategy and preference on parts, etc. None of Michael's teammates had equal status until Rosberg where literally all of Hamilton's teammates (except Kovaleinen) had equal status.

As for the idea that rivalries cannot be between teammates; I don't understand what you mean there. The most intense rivalries are between teammates. The greatest rivalry in F1 history was between Senna and Prost at McLaren. What makes for a better rivalry than having two elite drivers in identical machinery? Maybe you can explain what you mean by that?

Hamilton has been in many close battles for the championship that came down to the wire. His first two years at McLaren were decided in the final race by a single point. He was also still alive going into Abu Dhabi in 2010. Then you have the battles with Rosberg in 2014 and 2016.

You want to claim that Michael had better rivalries with Williams but he ended two of those years by intentionally crashing his opponent out of the race. Are we supposed to put that on a pedestal? Against Mika, there was never a title that came down to the last race (although I did appreciate this battle).

All his team mates were allowed to prove they were faster. All of them, they just couldn't hold a candle to him. It's like saying that poor Kova wasn't allowed to race Hamilton when in reality he was never good enough. Irvine has confirmed this, there was nothing in his contract to say that he wasn't allowed to. Nor Rubens's, and Rubens was not a guy that would stay quiet...

Regarding the bold part that is my fault, I confused what you said, until I re-read it now.

Now, why is winning on the last race constituting a rivalry with someone for you? No one said a rivalry is only for the last race, Jesus, you are reaching so much here...

Also, the intentional crashes did not take anything from the rivalry with the Williamses; if nothing else, you yourself mention Prost/Senna as the greatest rivalry ever and they had 2 intentional crashes of their own. Are you sure you are not just anti-Schumacher?

By the way, with Mika it came to the last race in 1998, so no idea why you say they never had a last race showdown.

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

f1madman wrote:Wow Hamilton keeps getting better. Best driver on the grid and one of the greatest of all time, surely.

He ticks all the boxes apart from one. And like Schumacher he has no control over that one. Hunt/Lauda; Senna/Prost. Hamilton/????

Hunt and Lauda were really only direct title rivals for two seasons. Senna and Prost for three. Hamilton has had a rivalry with Alonso as a rookie and Vettel throughout several seasons. He's also had multiple strong teammates like Alonso, Button and Rosberg. I think he has faced more direct challenges from other top drivers than any of the greats. Name me one all-time great driver who has had stronger teammates throughout their career.

No, suggesting that his time has been similar to Schumacher is just not accurate. Michael did his damage with teammates who were not permitted to really race him and without strong rivals in the other teams most of the time. The 3-4 years where he battled with Hakkinen were probably the most intense rivalry that Michael had and I do have fond memories of it but I'd say it was similar to Hamilton's battles with Vettel the last two years. Again, the main thing is that Michael never had a teammate who was given equal status until he came back and faced Rosebrg (who beat him three straight years).

Got to love the way you go off on one when you completely miss the point, and refute statements that nobody has made in the first place. And why would I name you who has had stronger teammates? When I said he has an impressive CV, not least 3 WDC teammates; did not that give you a clue how high I rate him in that regard?

But hell, if you think Hamilton has had a singular rivalry to match the Hunt/Lauda one, or the Prost/Senna one, I can't wait to see the inevitably movie. Now who is the other driver in this movie that everyone will want to see?

First of all, calm down. I wasn't trying to criticize you; just the idea that Hamilton didn't face strong rivals. I think I understand what you meant a lot better now. You are suggesting that there is no single driver who you immediately think of as a main rival to Lewis. That's somewhat true, although I think most people would generally say that it's Vettel.

First of all I am calm. I am zen like. And secondly I think these days its more accurate to say most people generally thought it would be Vettel. And I don't say that with any pleasure. We are at the stage now where it is not out of line to argue that Hamilton maybe the GOAT. (Personally it will always be Clark for me); and I just wish that box was ticked. But as I initially said, that's not in his hands.