The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:46 pm
That's the sort of progression you'd be looking at with Hamilton as well. Nobody rates Verstappen above him yet, because Max hasn't won anything. But there's a good chance he -- or Leclerc, or Russell, or someone we don't even know about yet -- will win plenty after Hamilton retires, and will in time be rated at a similar level or even higher.
I'm open-minded that Verstappen may be quicker than Hamilton in the same car, we have seen a few duels between the two and both have had their victories. I think don't think that assessment flatters either driver, Hamilton is clearly in the all-time top ten and Verstappen looks to be very much a potential all-time great. His victories over Sainz and Ricciardo in the same car distinguish him from Vettel who never truly experienced that level of competition rising through Red Bull's ranks.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
[fbvid][/fbvid]
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:53 pm

Given there is more performance variance in the cars then that's a bigger factor in what's fair for the drivers themselves, but apparently the bigger issue is the engines.
Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....
In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?
I'm not interested in teams I'm only interested in the drivers like I believe you are, It's curious the concern for the teams or perhaps for Red Bull and their driver, I have to wonder when F1 was ever a level playing field?

That doesn't mean F1 has to remain the same and a closing of the performance has to be seen as a good thing, but Mercedes aren't always winning because of the engine, not in 2018 and certainly in 2019 then the engine was no factor at all but Red Bull were nowhere and for me it's beyond doubt that Mercedes had the best car in 2020.

Like I said before engine parity is not that simple and Mercedes got taken down that rabbit hole before with Renault coming out laughing taking advantage of their right to catch up, you can read this in what Wolff had to say on the matter.
I'm not suggesting Mercedes are only winning because of their engines. I never have. I'm suggesting that teams being locked out of success for years due to not being able to buy a part that will let them be competitive is not a good thing. And I don't really care about Red Bull winning. I want to see an interesting formula. I would be much more excited about McLaren, Renault and Williams back at the front.
Last edited by mikeyg123 on Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:46 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:13 pm
I think this is just your version of how both Mercedes and Hamilton will be remembered, I've not seen one driver ranking that places Verstappen above Hamilton.
Hamilton at the moment is analogous to Schumacher from around 2004. Nobody rated Alonso higher than him at the time. Fast forward a couple years to when he had been beaten, and people started to show up rating Alonso (or Raikkonen, at the time) higher.

Fast forward now more than a decade, and while Schumacher is still universally rated quite highly there is a very substantial number who don't rate him as #1 anymore.

That's the sort of progression you'd be looking at with Hamilton as well. Nobody rates Verstappen above him yet, because Max hasn't won anything. But there's a good chance he -- or Leclerc, or Russell, or someone we don't even know about yet -- will win plenty after Hamilton retires, and will in time be rated at a similar level or even higher.
Schumacher lost in 2005 because Bridgestone made some terrible tyres, in 2006 he lost on points to Alonso but it was seen as a close loss, it didn't define Alonso as being better than him but certainly on the same level, then who came along a year later and did similar to Alonso and at that he was just a rookie, that defines his legacy as well.

Going back to Schumacher I never saw his 7 titles and his legacy lessened because of 2005 and 2006, likewise in the scenario you put forward for Hamilton why would that lessen his standing if someone goes on to great things after he retires this being the kind of thing proposed by KingVoid.

In respect to Verstappen I was just showing to KingVoid that his views are not shared on here by the majority, as for me I didn't mean it as being defining that in the long run Hamilton will be seen as being better than Verstappen.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
[fbvid][/fbvid]
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 am


Nobody is arguing that and you know it. Why be so disingenuous?

Still no reasons why varying engine performance is desirable either I note....
In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?
I'm not interested in teams I'm only interested in the drivers like I believe you are, It's curious the concern for the teams or perhaps for Red Bull and their driver, I have to wonder when F1 was ever a level playing field?

That doesn't mean F1 has to remain the same and a closing of the performance has to be seen as a good thing, but Mercedes aren't always winning because of the engine, not in 2018 and certainly in 2019 then the engine was no factor at all but Red Bull were nowhere and for me it's beyond doubt that Mercedes had the best car in 2020.

Like I said before engine parity is not that simple and Mercedes got taken down that rabbit hole before with Renault coming out laughing taking advantage of their right to catch up, you can read this in what Wolff had to say on the matter.
I'm not suggesting Mercedes are only winning because of their engines. I never have. I'm suggesting that teams being locked out of success for years due to not being able to buy a part that will let them be competitive is not a good thing. And I don't really care about Red Bull winning. I want to see an interesting formula. I would be much more excited about McLaren, Renault and
I would say that Red Bull were locked out of success from 2014-2018, Ferrari from 2014-2016, these were the only teams, Red Bull were the worse affected, it's so obvious a Red Bull affected point of view and can't be of little coincidence that Verstappen fans are the most vocerus.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:04 pm
Schumacher lost in 2005 because Bridgestone made some terrible tyres, in 2006 he lost on points to Alonso but it was seen as a close loss, it didn't define Alonso as being better than him but certainly on the same level, then who came along a year later and did similar to Alonso and at that he was just a rookie, that defines his legacy as well.
The whole Ferrari team was utterly blindsided by the late tyre rule changes as a knee jerk response to 2004. Ferrari's entire operational strategy with Bridgestone was about peak performance over a shorter tyre life. The farce of of the Indianapolis Grand Prix 2005 was the chickens coming to roost for the FIAs efforts to ensure Schumacher and Ferrari weren't competitive.

2007 is a useful barometer for Hamilton. I think the only season's he came close to that form before his current brilliance from 2018- was maybe 2012 where relaibility and McLaren operational performance hobbled him. It's also important to remember 2007 was probably Alonso's worst season in F1 on par with 2004 and he only lost to Hamilton on countback.

I think that supports my hypothesis that Hamilton is one of the finest drivers to grace the sport but for most of his career has lacked than last 3% to make him a true contender for the best F1 driver ever.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
[fbvid][/fbvid]
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 pm

In fairness to the drivers neither is desirable but F1 is not a spec series, I would question the motives to spec one particular variable in particular when coming from Verstappen fans.

Also moving on from that I would question just how easy it is to make different engines identical without one getting the upper hand, you can have a situation were you handicap the best engine and another engine is able to gain certain advantage in the design of the engine whilst crying under performance in order to be given a performance uplift like we will give you a higher fuel flow limit, the engine then being more robust and reliable, this was explained by Wolff.

We have a practical application of this during the V8's when Red Bull/Renault cried under performance so were allowed a performance increase but what they really wanted was to design the engine to allow for cold blowing which others were not able to copy because of a thing called an engine freeze.
Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?
I'm not interested in teams I'm only interested in the drivers like I believe you are, It's curious the concern for the teams or perhaps for Red Bull and their driver, I have to wonder when F1 was ever a level playing field?

That doesn't mean F1 has to remain the same and a closing of the performance has to be seen as a good thing, but Mercedes aren't always winning because of the engine, not in 2018 and certainly in 2019 then the engine was no factor at all but Red Bull were nowhere and for me it's beyond doubt that Mercedes had the best car in 2020.

Like I said before engine parity is not that simple and Mercedes got taken down that rabbit hole before with Renault coming out laughing taking advantage of their right to catch up, you can read this in what Wolff had to say on the matter.
I'm not suggesting Mercedes are only winning because of their engines. I never have. I'm suggesting that teams being locked out of success for years due to not being able to buy a part that will let them be competitive is not a good thing. And I don't really care about Red Bull winning. I want to see an interesting formula. I would be much more excited about McLaren, Renault and
I would say that Red Bull were locked out of success from 2014-2018, Ferrari from 2014-2016, these were the only teams, Red Bull were the worse affected, it's so obvious a Red Bull affected point of view and can't be of little coincidence that Verstappen fans are the most vocerus.
I'm not a Verstappen fan. I just think he's a good driver. He'd be a long way down my list of drivers I'd like to see win the 2021 WDC.

All teams without a Merc engine for 2014-16 and without a Merc or Ferrari engine 2014-18 were locked out of success. That isn't a good thing. You've not been able to come up with any reasons why it's a good thing. With that in mind why on earth are you trying to claim those pointing out into isn't a good thing as biased? What are you trying to achieve by that? You aren't even putting up an argument for it.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:19 am
Financial spending has never guaranteed success in F1. The top spending team has only won the WCC about 40% of the time. Toyota and BMW spent fortunes in the early 2000s for a single win and some pole positions.
Not every team that spent big money dominated, but every team that dominates spent big money. Right now in Formula 1, the only team with equal resources and spending power to Mercedes is Ferrari. All the others are not even competing in the same sport.
Hamilton's records might be more easily broken in a more level playing field where four drivers consistently win 5 races a year. A career from 18-38 at 5 wins a year would put a driver in Hamilton's ballpark.
That would result in a far lower win percentage. Hamilton winning 95 out of 266 races he competed in is a ratio that is impossible to achieve in a sport where every team operates on the same budget. That kind of ratio cannot be achieved unless you spend a very large chunk of your career with a superteam, like Hamilton has.
Anyone who re-watches 2008 or 2018 will see that he prevailed in a field with multiple teams competing for the title and arguably over both seasons he had a small car disadvantage relative to Ferrari.
Hamilton did make the difference against the Ferrari drivers in 2008 and 2018, but those seasons are far from a level playing field. His cars in those seasons were still clear from anyone apart from Ferrari. In 2018 Mercedes were still outspending everyone bar Ferrari by a large margin. His only competition in those seasons were Vettel, Massa and Kimi.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:13 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:01 pm
I disagree with your conclusion. In recent times the big reg changes 2014, 2009, 2005, 1998 and 1994 have given us much closer fields. 2009 being the closest field ever, 2005 ended the Ferrari dominance and 98 and 94 both ending Williams dominance. Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that. The theory of convergence has always been a myth. Largely because F1 is full of positive feedback loops.
This is very true. The huge differential in prize money distribution is why in the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The top teams attract more sponsors, the rich teams attract the best engineers, and the gulf continues to increase. Right now, the difference in resources and manpower between Mercedes and Haas is so large that it’s borderline impossible for Haas to compete with Mercedes even if the rules were changed.

In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.

That is one of the main reasons why I do not believe that any team will ever dominate like Mercedes 2014-2021 ever again.

This is both good and bad news for Hamilton. The good news is that the records he will set will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him drive will use Mercedes dominance to diminish his accomplishments and hype up the future superstars who win championships on a level playing field.
I think this is just your version of how both Mercedes and Hamilton will be remembered, I've not seen one driver ranking that places Verstappen above Hamilton.
Every driver ranking in 2013 placed Vettel above Hamilton by several positions.

Opinions in F1 can change very quickly.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:14 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:04 pm
Schumacher lost in 2005 because Bridgestone made some terrible tyres, in 2006 he lost on points to Alonso but it was seen as a close loss, it didn't define Alonso as being better than him but certainly on the same level, then who came along a year later and did similar to Alonso and at that he was just a rookie, that defines his legacy as well.
The whole Ferrari team was utterly blindsided by the late tyre rule changes as a knee jerk response to 2004. Ferrari's entire operational strategy with Bridgestone was about peak performance over a shorter tyre life. The farce of of the Indianapolis Grand Prix 2005 was the chickens coming to roost for the FIAs efforts to ensure Schumacher and Ferrari weren't competitive.
Well, you can tell the story also the way that Schumacher won in 2004 because of the tailor-made tyres for Ferrari only - and benefited massively from this in the years before.

Actually, in 2004, the Michelin tyres became very competitive over few laps but the long-runs were the Bridgestone domain. Thus, many expected the rule change for 2005 would benefit Bridgestone and harm Michelin - 2003-midseason-rule-change style. I think also Ferrari expected to benefit from the tyre-rules change for 2005 - hence, they were caught out when Michelin surprisingly and unexpectedly produced the better long-runners.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:16 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:13 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:01 pm
I disagree with your conclusion. In recent times the big reg changes 2014, 2009, 2005, 1998 and 1994 have given us much closer fields. 2009 being the closest field ever, 2005 ended the Ferrari dominance and 98 and 94 both ending Williams dominance. Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that. The theory of convergence has always been a myth. Largely because F1 is full of positive feedback loops.
This is very true. The huge differential in prize money distribution is why in the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The top teams attract more sponsors, the rich teams attract the best engineers, and the gulf continues to increase. Right now, the difference in resources and manpower between Mercedes and Haas is so large that it’s borderline impossible for Haas to compete with Mercedes even if the rules were changed.

In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.

That is one of the main reasons why I do not believe that any team will ever dominate like Mercedes 2014-2021 ever again.

This is both good and bad news for Hamilton. The good news is that the records he will set will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him drive will use Mercedes dominance to diminish his accomplishments and hype up the future superstars who win championships on a level playing field.
I think this is just your version of how both Mercedes and Hamilton will be remembered, I've not seen one driver ranking that places Verstappen above Hamilton.
Every driver ranking in 2013 placed Vettel above Hamilton by several positions.

Opinions in F1 can change very quickly.
In the case of Max and Lewis, it seems the opinion will change very slowly. Max matured and put in an excellent season in 2019 and was seen as 2nd to Lewis generally, and both have maintained position for 2020. Perhaps 2021 will finally see Max overhaul Lewis in public perception after chipping away at his supremacy for 3 or so years.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by KingVoid »

Invade wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:03 am
In the case of Max and Lewis, it seems the opinion will change very slowly. Max matured and put in an excellent season in 2019 and was seen as 2nd to Lewis generally, and both have maintained position for 2020. Perhaps 2021 will finally see Max overhaul Lewis in public perception after chipping away at his supremacy for 3 or so years.
Most Formula 1 fans are not very good at separating driver ability from the quality of their cars, so this is very unlikely. As long as Mercedes have the best car, Hamilton will maintain his image as the best driver on the grid.

Let’s not forget that prior to Sakhir, Bottas was ranked as a top 6 driver on the grid by many. It was not until Russell schooled him with zero experience in the W11 when the average fan finally realized just how much Mercedes flatter Bottas.

We need to wait another 15 years to have a truly accurate discussion on Verstappen vs Hamilton. That’s when we will get a proper picture. Right now, we haven't seen what Verstappen can do in great cars.

At the moment, all we know is what Verstappen can do with a car that is vastly inferior to the best one. All I will say on that note is that Verstappen’s 2019 and 2020 seasons compare very favourably to Hamilton’s performances from 2009 to 2013.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:07 am
Invade wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:03 am
In the case of Max and Lewis, it seems the opinion will change very slowly. Max matured and put in an excellent season in 2019 and was seen as 2nd to Lewis generally, and both have maintained position for 2020. Perhaps 2021 will finally see Max overhaul Lewis in public perception after chipping away at his supremacy for 3 or so years.
Most Formula 1 fans are not very good at separating driver ability from the quality of their cars, so this is very unlikely. As long as Mercedes have the best car, Hamilton will maintain his image as the best driver on the grid.

Let’s not forget that prior to Sakhir, Bottas was ranked as a top 6 driver on the grid by many. It was not until Russell schooled him with zero experience in the W11 when the average fan finally realized just how much Mercedes flatter Bottas.

We need to wait another 15 years to have a truly accurate discussion on Verstappen vs Hamilton. That’s when we will get a proper picture. Right now, we haven't seen what Verstappen can do in great cars.

At the moment, all we know is what Verstappen can do with a car that is vastly inferior to the best one. All I will say on that note is that Verstappen’s 2019 and 2020 seasons compare very favourably to Hamilton’s performances from 2009 to 2013.
But everywhere I look there's an army saying Verstappen would beat Hamilton in equal machinery.

Generally, polls and ratings are close across a whole host of websites. Many of the 'casual' fans who can't be bothered to do more than watch a few races a year just assume 'it's the car'. From what I can gather, looking at opinion all across the webosphere, Hamilton has a close but clear advantage over the last two seasons, but many already pair the two up as being in their own special bracket. On the whole, media outlets haven't been kind in giving Verstappen the nod - it's very much a close but no cigar set of conclusions for driver of the year and such.

Also, though Max has been excellent, I get the impression that he lost some of his new shine and lustre this year and Hamilton gained some of his own due to the gravitas of his achievements in tying or eclipsing the most important records in F1.

This seems like a close-run thing and not an insurmountable landslide.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:14 am
Not every team that spent big money dominated, but every team that dominates spent big money. Right now in Formula 1, the only team with equal resources and spending power to Mercedes is Ferrari. All the others are not even competing in the same sport.
Did you read my graph? Most successful teams spend double the mean team budget because they have a solid focus and efficiency. Biggers spends often net diminishing returns.

Also note that Red Bull spent more in 2014 than Mercedes. How that has changed since I don't know.
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:14 am
That kind of ratio cannot be achieved unless you spend a very large chunk of your career with a superteam, like Hamilton has.
Hamilton's win ratio is actually worse than Schumacher's from 1991-2006 which proves it can be done if you are a truly standout driver for most of your career.

I think Schumacher was peerless between 1994-2002 while Hamilton has competed with an all time great such as Alonso and great drivers such as Vettel, Raikkonen (who with favourable machinery are two of the fastest) and Button.
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:59 am
I think also Ferrari expected to benefit from the tyre-rules change for 2005 - hence, they were caught out when Michelin surprisingly and unexpectedly produced the better long-runners.
My take on it largely comes from Ross Brawn who is almost certainly biased. According to him, Ferrari were targeted and single-handedly nullified by the FIA. Perhaps your version is more accurate!
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:07 am
Let’s not forget that prior to Sakhir, Bottas was ranked as a top 6 driver on the grid by many.
I'm of the opinion that Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo and Vettel (on-form) would beat Bottas consistently which funnily enough puts him in the top 6. I think Sainz-Bottas would be a tasty and unpredictable match-up.

One stellar race on a weird track doesn't make Russell superior to Bottas. Although, he could possibly be a superstar.
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:07 am
At the moment, all we know is what Verstappen can do with a car that is vastly inferior to the best one. All I will say on that note is that Verstappen’s 2019 and 2020 seasons compare very favourably to Hamilton’s performances from 2009 to 2013.
Vastly inferior is overstating it, consistently inferior is fairer. On the rare occasion the Red Bull has looked the better car, Verstappen has prevailed, Hungary 2019 and Turkey 2020 notwithstanding.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:14 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:04 pm
Schumacher lost in 2005 because Bridgestone made some terrible tyres, in 2006 he lost on points to Alonso but it was seen as a close loss, it didn't define Alonso as being better than him but certainly on the same level, then who came along a year later and did similar to Alonso and at that he was just a rookie, that defines his legacy as well.
The whole Ferrari team was utterly blindsided by the late tyre rule changes as a knee jerk response to 2004. Ferrari's entire operational strategy with Bridgestone was about peak performance over a shorter tyre life. The farce of of the Indianapolis Grand Prix 2005 was the chickens coming to roost for the FIAs efforts to ensure Schumacher and Ferrari weren't competitive.

2007 is a useful barometer for Hamilton. I think the only season's he came close to that form before his current brilliance from 2018- was maybe 2012 where relaibility and McLaren operational performance hobbled him. It's also important to remember 2007 was probably Alonso's worst season in F1 on par with 2004 and he only lost to Hamilton on countback.

I think that supports my hypothesis that Hamilton is one of the finest drivers to grace the sport but for most of his career has lacked than last 3% to make him a true contender for the best F1 driver ever.
Alonso fell apart because of the teammate he was up against, and I would go against 2007 as being up there with his finest seasons at McLaren because he clearly failed to win the title because of inexperience, Hamilton today wins that title no problem, he even has said that himself.

2008 there was too many errors, 2009 was on the car not Hamilton, 2010 he made no more errors than 2007, 2011 let's forget that one, and 2012 you have up there with one of his best seasons, that covers the McLaren years, I would say you could only define 2008 and 2011 as being worse than 2007.
Last edited by pokerman on Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:18 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:11 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:05 pm
[fbvid][/fbvid]

Forget the motives. Doesn't matter. Although if you didn't have such a short memory you would remember some of us have been saying how awful these engines are for F1 since day dot.

You've still not said why having potentially winning teams taken out of contention due to an inability to get their hands on a competitive engine is a good thing? If you can't come up with a reason why that is good then perhaps it is bad? If it is bad then why not look for a way to change that?
I'm not interested in teams I'm only interested in the drivers like I believe you are, It's curious the concern for the teams or perhaps for Red Bull and their driver, I have to wonder when F1 was ever a level playing field?

That doesn't mean F1 has to remain the same and a closing of the performance has to be seen as a good thing, but Mercedes aren't always winning because of the engine, not in 2018 and certainly in 2019 then the engine was no factor at all but Red Bull were nowhere and for me it's beyond doubt that Mercedes had the best car in 2020.

Like I said before engine parity is not that simple and Mercedes got taken down that rabbit hole before with Renault coming out laughing taking advantage of their right to catch up, you can read this in what Wolff had to say on the matter.
I'm not suggesting Mercedes are only winning because of their engines. I never have. I'm suggesting that teams being locked out of success for years due to not being able to buy a part that will let them be competitive is not a good thing. And I don't really care about Red Bull winning. I want to see an interesting formula. I would be much more excited about McLaren, Renault and
I would say that Red Bull were locked out of success from 2014-2018, Ferrari from 2014-2016, these were the only teams, Red Bull were the worse affected, it's so obvious a Red Bull affected point of view and can't be of little coincidence that Verstappen fans are the most vocerus.
I'm not a Verstappen fan. I just think he's a good driver. He'd be a long way down my list of drivers I'd like to see win the 2021 WDC.

All teams without a Merc engine for 2014-16 and without a Merc or Ferrari engine 2014-18 were locked out of success. That isn't a good thing. You've not been able to come up with any reasons why it's a good thing. With that in mind why on earth are you trying to claim those pointing out into isn't a good thing as biased? What are you trying to achieve by that? You aren't even putting up an argument for it.
Once on my favourite F1 podcast they opinioned that there is no such thing as an unbiased F1 fan, the way you have continuously batted for Verstappen over the years how can I think otherwise, this year you was one of the 17% that voted for Verstappen as driver of the year as opposed to 80% that voted for Hamilton.

I think what you are saying is a bit of a nonsense, apart from Ferrari and Red Bull which teams post 2014 built a car capable of challenging Mercedes, McLaren? Renault? Really?

You keep asking me the question but I was first to question why are spec cars bad but spec engines good when in respect to the drivers themselves the biggest performance denominator are the cars and not the engines.

Also I repeat how practical is it and referenced Wolff, in Indycars we have 2 engine providers with supposedly equal engines yet in by far the biggest race of the year, the Indy500, either one or other of the engine providers dominate the race.

What you are suggesting is not that simple unless all the engines come from the same provider and like I say Wolff is aware of some of the pit falls in surrendering a sporting advantage, we freeze your engine while the others are given a leg up possibly to the detriment of Mercedes.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:14 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:19 am
Financial spending has never guaranteed success in F1. The top spending team has only won the WCC about 40% of the time. Toyota and BMW spent fortunes in the early 2000s for a single win and some pole positions.
Not every team that spent big money dominated, but every team that dominates spent big money. Right now in Formula 1, the only team with equal resources and spending power to Mercedes is Ferrari. All the others are not even competing in the same sport.
Hamilton's records might be more easily broken in a more level playing field where four drivers consistently win 5 races a year. A career from 18-38 at 5 wins a year would put a driver in Hamilton's ballpark.
That would result in a far lower win percentage. Hamilton winning 95 out of 266 races he competed in is a ratio that is impossible to achieve in a sport where every team operates on the same budget. That kind of ratio cannot be achieved unless you spend a very large chunk of your career with a superteam, like Hamilton has.
Anyone who re-watches 2008 or 2018 will see that he prevailed in a field with multiple teams competing for the title and arguably over both seasons he had a small car disadvantage relative to Ferrari.
Hamilton did make the difference against the Ferrari drivers in 2008 and 2018, but those seasons are far from a level playing field. His cars in those seasons were still clear from anyone apart from Ferrari. In 2018 Mercedes were still outspending everyone bar Ferrari by a large margin. His only competition in those seasons were Vettel, Massa and Kimi.
Honestly who cares about win percentages and which drivers ever won the WDC in the 3rd best car?
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:16 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:13 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:01 pm
I disagree with your conclusion. In recent times the big reg changes 2014, 2009, 2005, 1998 and 1994 have given us much closer fields. 2009 being the closest field ever, 2005 ended the Ferrari dominance and 98 and 94 both ending Williams dominance. Generally rule stability leads to one team stretching out in front of the others. I think your graph shows that. The theory of convergence has always been a myth. Largely because F1 is full of positive feedback loops.
This is very true. The huge differential in prize money distribution is why in the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The top teams attract more sponsors, the rich teams attract the best engineers, and the gulf continues to increase. Right now, the difference in resources and manpower between Mercedes and Haas is so large that it’s borderline impossible for Haas to compete with Mercedes even if the rules were changed.

In fairness, some of the planned regulation changes for 2021 are designed to tackle that problem. The budget cap will put an end to Mercedes outspending the midfield teams by $200m to $300m. The teams that finish further down the grid will be allowed more hours to develop their car in the windtunnel.

That is one of the main reasons why I do not believe that any team will ever dominate like Mercedes 2014-2021 ever again.

This is both good and bad news for Hamilton. The good news is that the records he will set will never be broken. The bad news is that younger fans who never saw him drive will use Mercedes dominance to diminish his accomplishments and hype up the future superstars who win championships on a level playing field.
I think this is just your version of how both Mercedes and Hamilton will be remembered, I've not seen one driver ranking that places Verstappen above Hamilton.
Every driver ranking in 2013 placed Vettel above Hamilton by several positions.

Opinions in F1 can change very quickly.
That's what can happen when the following year you get thrashed by your teammate, which teammate is going to thrash Hamilton?
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:07 am
Invade wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:03 am
In the case of Max and Lewis, it seems the opinion will change very slowly. Max matured and put in an excellent season in 2019 and was seen as 2nd to Lewis generally, and both have maintained position for 2020. Perhaps 2021 will finally see Max overhaul Lewis in public perception after chipping away at his supremacy for 3 or so years.
Most Formula 1 fans are not very good at separating driver ability from the quality of their cars, so this is very unlikely. As long as Mercedes have the best car, Hamilton will maintain his image as the best driver on the grid.

Let’s not forget that prior to Sakhir, Bottas was ranked as a top 6 driver on the grid by many. It was not until Russell schooled him with zero experience in the W11 when the average fan finally realized just how much Mercedes flatter Bottas.

We need to wait another 15 years to have a truly accurate discussion on Verstappen vs Hamilton. That’s when we will get a proper picture. Right now, we haven't seen what Verstappen can do in great cars.

At the moment, all we know is what Verstappen can do with a car that is vastly inferior to the best one. All I will say on that note is that Verstappen’s 2019 and 2020 seasons compare very favourably to Hamilton’s performances from 2009 to 2013.
Russell schooled Bottas, I guess if you exaggerate a point it helps to make a stronger point.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:39 pm
Alonso fell apart because of the teammate he was up against, and I would go against 2007 as being up there with his finest seasons at McLaren because he clearly failed to win the title because of inexperience, Hamilton today wins that title no problem, he even has said that himself.
Hamilton's relative inexperience against the calibre of teammate and a strong Ferrari lineup is precisely why 2007 is rated so highly. It cost him in the end but in those first nine races, Hamilton looked like the reigning double champion and Alonso looked the talented rookie. I'd say only his 2018 and 2020 and maybe 2019 are clearly better than his debut year.
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:39 pm
I would say you could only define 2008 and 2011 as being worse than 2007.
I see little evidence to suggest his 2009 or 2010 form was close to his 2007 form. Hamilton didn't overachieve with his car in the way he did against slightly superior Ferraris in 2007.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by f1madman »

Sir Lewis Hamilton!

According to planet F1 news, Hamilton is set to be getting a knighthood soon.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

f1madman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:20 pm
Sir Lewis Hamilton!

According to planet F1 news, Hamilton is set to be getting a knighthood soon.
But can they get that darn contract signed already...

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Now that his is a knight this means that he can move two grid spaces forwards and one to the side.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Option or Prime »

He has one now!

Lewis Hamilton Knighted

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Mod Aqua »

Thread title updated ;)

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Johnson »

Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Invade »

Johnson wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:53 am
Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.
I'd settle for just 'Sir'.

Also, Sir should change from '44' to 'S'.

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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:14 pm
Now that his is a knight this means that he can move two grid spaces forwards and one to the side.
Ha! Does that mean all rookies get to move forwards / backwards / sideways..? And I won't mention anyone being a queen.
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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by LBET »

S'Lewis! Time to put a jousting stick on keyar init!

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by MistaVega23 »

Well-overdue IMO, considering they handed out the same honour to the likes of Andy Murray (who simply won a tournament) and some cyclists who won a gold medal at an Olympics.

I really wish the MSM would drop the 'tax exile' comments though. It's getting so tiresome now.
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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

Johnson wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:53 am
Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.
Is it though?
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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

I look forward to Crofty saying "...and here come Sir Lewis Hamilton, down the Hamilton Straight to win his eighth British Grand Prix!"

(I'm only joking, I never look forward to anything Crofty says)

When Sir Lewis finally retires, I'm sure Silverstone and F1 will rename the British race the Hamilton Grand Hamilton. x(
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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Harpo »

Is Toto demoted to footman or butler ?
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:10 am
Johnson wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:53 am
Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.
I'd settle for just 'Sir'.

Also, Sir should change from '44' to 'S'.
And it will be SLH, not just LH in the name designation!

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Siao7 »

Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:27 am
Is Toto demoted to footman or butler ?
Squire?

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:24 am
I look forward to Crofty saying "...and here come Sir Lewis Hamilton, down the Hamilton Straight to win his eighth British Grand Prix!"

(I'm only joking, I never look forward to anything Crofty says)

When Sir Lewis finally retires, I'm sure Silverstone and F1 will rename the British race the Hamilton Grand Hamilton. x(
It may be nice to hear a new Alex Jacques on Channel 4 in the UK call Hamilton this as he is their replacement for Ben Edwards, but Crofty will be annoying as ever and probably talk about this while he is missing other things happening on screen. That is almost guaranteed.

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:00 am
Johnson wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:53 am
Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.
Is it though?
Many ways of looking at that. In my opinion yes. It's inline with what other sportsmen get honoured for.

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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Harpo »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:34 am
Harpo wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:27 am
Is Toto demoted to footman or butler ?
Squire?
Hasn't Bottas already been hired for the job ?
I'd rather call Toto the grey eminence if footman doesn't look enough (and you can be footman and grey eminence at the same time - One King of France had his barber as trustworthy counsellor...).
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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:52 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:00 am
Johnson wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:53 am
Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.
Is it though?
Many ways of looking at that. In my opinion yes. It's inline with what other sportsmen get honoured for.
I assume any question of the justification for Lewis' knighthood would also question any other sporting figure receiving the honor. If you accept that sporting achievement is worthy of knighthood, I think it's clear Lewis has done enough.
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Re: The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by tootsie323 »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:33 am
Invade wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:10 am
Johnson wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:53 am
Sir Lewis. Well earned. I hope the commentators don’t call him that though.
I'd settle for just 'Sir'.

Also, Sir should change from '44' to 'S'.
And it will be SLH, not just LH in the name designation!
Isn't it presently HAM? Quite ironic, considering his diet.
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Re: The Official Lewis Hamilton thread

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:43 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:39 pm
Alonso fell apart because of the teammate he was up against, and I would go against 2007 as being up there with his finest seasons at McLaren because he clearly failed to win the title because of inexperience, Hamilton today wins that title no problem, he even has said that himself.
Hamilton's relative inexperience against the calibre of teammate and a strong Ferrari lineup is precisely why 2007 is rated so highly. It cost him in the end but in those first nine races, Hamilton looked like the reigning double champion and Alonso looked the talented rookie. I'd say only his 2018 and 2020 and maybe 2019 are clearly better than his debut year.
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:39 pm
I would say you could only define 2008 and 2011 as being worse than 2007.
I see little evidence to suggest his 2009 or 2010 form was close to his 2007 form. Hamilton didn't overachieve with his car in the way he did against slightly superior Ferraris in 2007.
I wouldn't say what Hamilton did as a rookie wasn't exceptional just that a later version of Hamilton does better, I guess you are weighting the circumstances of his inexperience to the level of his performance, it certainly was game changing.
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