Re: The Average Driver
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:21 am
But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
The names in the poll are in the same order as the current WDC standings. In hindsight I should probably have mixed them up a bit.Laura23 wrote:Best bit is he's even in the middle of the poll. Mr Average indeed.
How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.
How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
RaggedMan wrote:How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.
how can it be ? most of us think Di Resta is Mr average and he is leading the pollRace2win wrote:This poll is a complete failure....
Most polls have outliers. This poll is easy to interpret (on Wednesday morning at least). DiResta is the overwhelming choice for average. The rest is noise.Blake wrote:This is why virtually every poll on such forums is totally worthless. There are always those who think they are "cute" or are either so damn dumb that they do not know any better. Either way, it invalidates every poll,SilverstoneRegular wrote:Vettel and Alonso 1 vote each!
Lewis 2 votes!! Oh you crazy people lol how could anyone actually think them as average lol
While they are currently in 5th out of 11 teams in the constructors standings that's still firmly in the middle of the pack. Since 2010 when the new teams entered the field they've placed either 6th or 7th every year, while Williams and Sauber seem to be up or down every year so that is why I say say that they are probably the definition of the average team. They are steady year in and year out, and their drivers usually bring the cars in about where you would expect them to.BlueSharky wrote:RaggedMan wrote:How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.
McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.
That's just part of statistical sampling and it happens with everything unless the survey restricts the choices available in which case it can be accused of bias in the first place. There will also be people who vote for the most popular option simply based on the fact that it is the most popular option, which is no more valid. IMO having a couple of those apparently non-sensical answers actually improves the validity of the survey because the sample size is large enough to incorporate a properly wide-reaching range of views and it means the options presented do not have an initial slant that skews the overall result.Blake wrote:This is why virtually every poll on such forums is totally worthless. There are always those who think they are "cute" or are either so damn dumb that they do not know any better. Either way, it invalidates every poll,SilverstoneRegular wrote:Vettel and Alonso 1 vote each!
Lewis 2 votes!! Oh you crazy people lol how could anyone actually think them as average lol
By that reasoning does that make Button also average? And Massa below average?Warnzee wrote:I'd say Webber is average, as he's had the best car on the grid for the last three years and 'only' won a handful of races. Anyone on the grid should be able to win races in the Red Bull, unless they are rubbish. Vettel is obviously above average (slight understatement i s'pose!) having won many races.
Di Resta is below average, so not as good as Webber, but would still probably win a race in the Red Bull, like Heikki won a race in the McLaren.
That's my reasoning anyway.
This isn't just about this season. You can't really draw any conclusions just after 2 races. Also it isn't about absolute gap between backmakers and frontrunners. FI is clearly mid-pack since 2010. Never top team, nor the backmarker, look at standings since 2010 when they stopped being backmarker. It's 7th, 6th, 7th with 12 teams competing.BlueSharky wrote:RaggedMan wrote:How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.
McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.
Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.Race2win wrote:How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?
dizlexik wrote:This isn't just about this season. You can't really draw any conclusions just after 2 races. Also it isn't about absolute gap between backmakers and frontrunners. FI is clearly mid-pack since 2010. Never top team, nor the backmarker, look at standings since 2010 when they stopped being backmarker. It's 7th, 6th, 7th with 12 teams competing.BlueSharky wrote:RaggedMan wrote:How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.
McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.
That's just your opinion. Fact is Force India are bang in the middle of the order. They are the average joe of F1. Not great, not terrible, just good.BlueSharky wrote:dizlexik wrote:This isn't just about this season. You can't really draw any conclusions just after 2 races. Also it isn't about absolute gap between backmakers and frontrunners. FI is clearly mid-pack since 2010. Never top team, nor the backmarker, look at standings since 2010 when they stopped being backmarker. It's 7th, 6th, 7th with 12 teams competing.BlueSharky wrote:RaggedMan wrote:How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.
5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.
McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.
When we're talking about average in this poll, we don't mean the absolute middle of the pack. We mean someone who's skills are not bad, but neither are they good. THAT's called being average. A similar line of thought could be applied to the teams.
Let me clarify. If you somehow numerically give a rating to each team between 1 -5, where 1 is the best, and 5 is the worst, 3 being average, and then classify the teams like this :
1: RB, Ferrari, Lotus
2: Mercedes, Force India, McLaren
3: <empty>
4: Williams, Sauber, STR
5: Marussia, Caterham
You can see that FI is above average, while no team fits the numerical description of "average". Some teams are above average, and some teams are below. There is no team at the cusp of the fine line of being average. Of course, these ratings are pure fiction, and I just wanted to get the point across.
I agree with it. You made a relevant distinction between "average" in mathematical sense, and "average" in terms of qualities of a person. Put Paul di Resta in RBR or Ferrai and he won't be perceived as an average driver but rather as one of the top drivers. Put him in a Marussia or Caterham and he won't be perceived as an average driver but rather as one of the bottom drivers. And put him into Force India, that last year ended in the middle/average position, and both drivers will be perceived as - average drivers.BlueSharky wrote:When we're talking about average in this poll, we don't mean the absolute middle of the pack. We mean someone who's skills are not bad, but neither are they good. THAT's called being average. A similar line of thought could be applied to the teams.
Clearly PF1 members are biased against Scots (or is that Italian Scots ) )RunningMan wrote:Well, Di Resta seems to be the popular choice
"The tap oorder has the shakes aboot me but that always happens when ye start tae win. Like I said, no whit I’d call a coincidence. Ma engineers seems tae think this time Sutil’s wheel nuts wants tae come aff. Dae I tell Sutil aboot this or keep ma mouth shut. Jist don’t know how clever is he. We’ll see when we get oot in a couple of daes".
Exactly.Laura23 wrote:That's just your opinion. Fact is Force India are bang in the middle of the order. They are the average joe of F1. Not great, not terrible, just good.
uk in ny wrote:Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.Race2win wrote:How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?
But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?
Ever thought that those stats may be helped by the fact that he IS into his 14th season? Nothing against JB, but do that as a percentage and I imagine he isn't so high.Bahamut19 wrote:uk in ny wrote:Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.Race2win wrote:How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?
But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?
Yeah, but you're saying that Button is the 11th best driver on the grid. To put this in perspective he has the 17th most wins of all time. He ranks 5th of all time in total races finished in the points.
Now I know longer F1 seasons in recent years and car quality have a huge impact on these stats, but the fact that he's just started his 14th F1 season should speak for itself. Very few drivers ever last that long unless they are exceptionally talented. Think about how many drivers have entered and left the sport since 2001. Then think about the fact that Button has out lived all of them. He's the only driver left who competed the 2000 WDC. Whether he's on par with Alonso et al is a debate for another time, but to say that he's an average driver is a joke.
No, of course he isn't. He is, however, miles above average. Most drivers never win a race at all. Most never make it to their hundredth GP, let alone 200, with no sign of stopping. All I'm saying is that there is a reason that he's a WDC, and there's a reason he's racing at one of the top teams on the grid at the tail end of his career.AngusWolfe wrote:Ever thought that those stats may be helped by the fact that he IS into his 14th season? Nothing against JB, but do that as a percentage and I imagine he isn't so high.Bahamut19 wrote:uk in ny wrote:Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.Race2win wrote:How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?
But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?
Yeah, but you're saying that Button is the 11th best driver on the grid. To put this in perspective he has the 17th most wins of all time. He ranks 5th of all time in total races finished in the points.
Now I know longer F1 seasons in recent years and car quality have a huge impact on these stats, but the fact that he's just started his 14th F1 season should speak for itself. Very few drivers ever last that long unless they are exceptionally talented. Think about how many drivers have entered and left the sport since 2001. Then think about the fact that Button has out lived all of them. He's the only driver left who competed the 2000 WDC. Whether he's on par with Alonso et al is a debate for another time, but to say that he's an average driver is a joke.
BlueSharky wrote:Eat humble pie, y'all!
This is internet, they are troll votes, get over it. The important thing is that who gets most votes.Blake wrote:This is why virtually every poll on such forums is totally worthless. There are always those who think they are "cute" or are either so damn dumb that they do not know any better. Either way, it invalidates every poll,SilverstoneRegular wrote:Vettel and Alonso 1 vote each!
Lewis 2 votes!! Oh you crazy people lol how could anyone actually think them as average lol
wow he got a 4th place finish when he was in a solid car and a few cars which probably would have beaten him also had issues... he's still average in my opinionBlueSharky wrote:Eat humble pie, y'all!