The Average Driver

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The "average" driver

Sebastian Vettel
7
4%
Kimi Räikkönen
3
2%
Mark Webber
6
4%
Lewis Hamilton
3
2%
Felipe Massa
6
4%
Fernando Alonso
2
1%
Nico Rosberg
6
4%
Romain Grosjean
3
2%
Adrian Sutil
13
8%
Paul di Resta
71
43%
Nico Hulkenberg
3
2%
Sergio Perez
7
4%
Jenson Button
18
11%
Jean-Eric Vergne
5
3%
Valtteri Bottas
1
1%
Esteban Gutierrez
2
1%
Jules Bianchi
1
1%
Charles Pic
1
1%
Giedo van der Garde
1
1%
Max Chilton
1
1%
Daniel Ricciardo
4
2%
Pastor Maldonado
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 164

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BlueSharky
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by BlueSharky »

But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

I actually wrote a vaguely long reply, but in the course of doing so, basically stumbled upon what I felt I most considered my own answer!

I'd probably say Sutil and di Resta are the two best candidates. They've been in F1 long enough to be able to form a proper opinion of them, but have they really done anything special? No wins. No podiums. No poles. Sutil has one fastest lap. Maybe the odd good drive, but an awful lot of forgettable ones. Outside of the odd Sutil fan, did anyone really think, during the 2012 season, "This just isn't the same with Adrian Sutil"? Would anyone think that if Paul di Resta wasn't on the grid next year? Really, either one seems like a pretty fitting candidate. Sutil is the slightly better driver, although I'm not sure if that makes him average and di Resta slightly below average, or if it means di Resta is average and Sutil is ever-so-slightly above average.
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Covalent
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Covalent »

Laura23 wrote:Best bit is he's even in the middle of the poll. Mr Average indeed.

The names in the poll are in the same order as the current WDC standings. In hindsight I should probably have mixed them up a bit.

uk in ny
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by uk in ny »

I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.

Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.

Perez is young and likely out of his league at the moment. I would certainly rank Sutil, Hulkenberg and Grosjean as more talented (if also with their issues) than Sergio.

Seems like the line up match the Car this year. Average.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Race2win »

uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.

How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?
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Prophet
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Prophet »

Truth is everyone but the very top few are average because you could put a blanket over pretty much all of them performance wise, Which is the very definition of average. Fans might try to make various claims, like maldonado or whoever else is above average but there is no real evidence of that. Historically there have always been the few special ones on the grid, and the rest in a pack behind them because none of them can sustain a consistent and significant performance advantage over everyone else.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by RaggedMan »

BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.

5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.
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BlueSharky
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by BlueSharky »

RaggedMan wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.

5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.



McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.
Last edited by BlueSharky on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by mac_d »

Di Resta I would have to say. Sutil too probably would be close to the mark in my mind.

Both are good enough drivers, but nothing to suggest they will ever be titans of the sport. They perform well but never have an absolute brilliant race. Rarely (recently for Sutil) having a nightmare wither. Just toddling along every time.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Race2win »

This poll is a complete failure....
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A2jdl
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by A2jdl »

Race2win wrote:This poll is a complete failure....

how can it be ? most of us think Di Resta is Mr average and he is leading the poll

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Covalent
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Covalent »

Well after a hundred votes di Resta is in a just about as convincing a lead I've ever seen on this forum, with 54 votes.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by silkjet »

Blake wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:Vettel and Alonso 1 vote each!
Lewis 2 votes!! Oh you crazy people lol how could anyone actually think them as average lol


This is why virtually every poll on such forums is totally worthless. There are always those who think they are "cute" or are either so damn dumb that they do not know any better. Either way, it invalidates every poll,
:thumbdown:


Most polls have outliers. This poll is easy to interpret (on Wednesday morning at least). DiResta is the overwhelming choice for average. The rest is noise.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by RaggedMan »

BlueSharky wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.

5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.



McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.

While they are currently in 5th out of 11 teams in the constructors standings that's still firmly in the middle of the pack. Since 2010 when the new teams entered the field they've placed either 6th or 7th every year, while Williams and Sauber seem to be up or down every year so that is why I say say that they are probably the definition of the average team. They are steady year in and year out, and their drivers usually bring the cars in about where you would expect them to.

I don't mean it a derogatory way, I'm not of the school of people who considers saying someone is average as an insult. The higher the overall standard is, the better you have to be in order to be "average" and I feel the standard is pretty high these days in F1.
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Jo_
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Jo_ »

Blake wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:Vettel and Alonso 1 vote each!
Lewis 2 votes!! Oh you crazy people lol how could anyone actually think them as average lol


This is why virtually every poll on such forums is totally worthless. There are always those who think they are "cute" or are either so damn dumb that they do not know any better. Either way, it invalidates every poll,
:thumbdown:

That's just part of statistical sampling and it happens with everything unless the survey restricts the choices available in which case it can be accused of bias in the first place. There will also be people who vote for the most popular option simply based on the fact that it is the most popular option, which is no more valid. IMO having a couple of those apparently non-sensical answers actually improves the validity of the survey because the sample size is large enough to incorporate a properly wide-reaching range of views and it means the options presented do not have an initial slant that skews the overall result.

If there's too many of the odd answers (if, for example, Alonso was to win the poll), then I would agree that it's a problem. Statistically it isn't because that would just be what the sample turned out, but being so far removed from the original hypothesis it would probably be checked against other data and declared an odd sample.
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Warnzee
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Warnzee »

I'd say Webber is average, as he's had the best car on the grid for the last three years and 'only' won a handful of races. Anyone on the grid should be able to win races in the Red Bull, unless they are rubbish. Vettel is obviously above average (slight understatement i s'pose!) having won many races.

Di Resta is below average, so not as good as Webber, but would still probably win a race in the Red Bull, like Heikki won a race in the McLaren.

That's my reasoning anyway.
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bbobeckyj
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by bbobeckyj »

Warnzee wrote:I'd say Webber is average, as he's had the best car on the grid for the last three years and 'only' won a handful of races. Anyone on the grid should be able to win races in the Red Bull, unless they are rubbish. Vettel is obviously above average (slight understatement i s'pose!) having won many races.

Di Resta is below average, so not as good as Webber, but would still probably win a race in the Red Bull, like Heikki won a race in the McLaren.

That's my reasoning anyway.

By that reasoning does that make Button also average? And Massa below average?

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Warnzee »

No, because Button won the World Championship when he had the chance. Up to 2008 though i would have grudgingly said yes, he is only an average driver but not anymore.

Massa situation is totally different as well, when he has had the best car he was won many races, and only lost the World Championship by a point. The last few years have been hard for him, but at the end of last year he looked as good as anyone else on track. So no, Massa is not an average driver in my opinion.
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Prema
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Prema »

The flaw of the question (who is the average driver?) is reflected in that popular saying that a driver's part in the success is some 20% (or is it 30% ?) while the rest is car/team.

Take Rubens Barrichello. In his long F1 carrier, he went all from the place 20 in Honda to 2 in Ferrari (well, Schumacher was there, no chance for 1). How to classify him?

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Donington93 »

I voted for Massa...perhaps Di Resta was a better choice, but since his injury I would argue that Massa's body of work has been average.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by dizlexik »

BlueSharky wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.

5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.



McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.

This isn't just about this season. You can't really draw any conclusions just after 2 races. Also it isn't about absolute gap between backmakers and frontrunners. FI is clearly mid-pack since 2010. Never top team, nor the backmarker, look at standings since 2010 when they stopped being backmarker. It's 7th, 6th, 7th with 12 teams competing.
eeee

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by uk in ny »

Race2win wrote:
uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.

How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?


Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.

But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?

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BlueSharky
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by BlueSharky »

dizlexik wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.

5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.



McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.

This isn't just about this season. You can't really draw any conclusions just after 2 races. Also it isn't about absolute gap between backmakers and frontrunners. FI is clearly mid-pack since 2010. Never top team, nor the backmarker, look at standings since 2010 when they stopped being backmarker. It's 7th, 6th, 7th with 12 teams competing.



When we're talking about average in this poll, we don't mean the absolute middle of the pack. We mean someone who's skills are not bad, but neither are they good. THAT's called being average. A similar line of thought could be applied to the teams.

Let me clarify. If you somehow numerically give a rating to each team between 1 -5, where 1 is the best, and 5 is the worst, 3 being average, and then classify the teams like this :

1: RB, Ferrari, Lotus
2: Mercedes, Force India, McLaren
3: <empty>
4: Williams, Sauber, STR
5: Marussia, Caterham

You can see that FI is above average, while no team fits the numerical description of "average". Some teams are above average, and some teams are below. There is no team at the cusp of the fine line of being average. Of course, these ratings are pure fiction, and I just wanted to get the point across.

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Laura23
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Laura23 »

BlueSharky wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:But Force India are an ABOVE AVERAGE team, even though they have nearly 3/4th of the average driver votes.

How is FI an above average team? They have Red Bull, Ferrari, and Lotus well ahead of them. McLaren and Mercedes just ahead of them (for now). Then there's STR, Williams, and Sauber just behind them. Then Marussia and Caterham at the end of the pack.

5 teams ahead of them, 5 teams behind them even the team is average.



McLaren is behind them (for now). The gap between the top 4 is really close, while the gap between Sauber/Williams and Marussia/Caterham is quite big. Instead of the mean, if you take the variance/deviation, you'll find FI are way above average.

This isn't just about this season. You can't really draw any conclusions just after 2 races. Also it isn't about absolute gap between backmakers and frontrunners. FI is clearly mid-pack since 2010. Never top team, nor the backmarker, look at standings since 2010 when they stopped being backmarker. It's 7th, 6th, 7th with 12 teams competing.



When we're talking about average in this poll, we don't mean the absolute middle of the pack. We mean someone who's skills are not bad, but neither are they good. THAT's called being average. A similar line of thought could be applied to the teams.

Let me clarify. If you somehow numerically give a rating to each team between 1 -5, where 1 is the best, and 5 is the worst, 3 being average, and then classify the teams like this :

1: RB, Ferrari, Lotus
2: Mercedes, Force India, McLaren
3: <empty>
4: Williams, Sauber, STR
5: Marussia, Caterham

You can see that FI is above average, while no team fits the numerical description of "average". Some teams are above average, and some teams are below. There is no team at the cusp of the fine line of being average. Of course, these ratings are pure fiction, and I just wanted to get the point across.

That's just your opinion. Fact is Force India are bang in the middle of the order. They are the average joe of F1. Not great, not terrible, just good.
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Prema »

BlueSharky wrote:When we're talking about average in this poll, we don't mean the absolute middle of the pack. We mean someone who's skills are not bad, but neither are they good. THAT's called being average. A similar line of thought could be applied to the teams.

I agree with it. You made a relevant distinction between "average" in mathematical sense, and "average" in terms of qualities of a person. Put Paul di Resta in RBR or Ferrai and he won't be perceived as an average driver but rather as one of the top drivers. Put him in a Marussia or Caterham and he won't be perceived as an average driver but rather as one of the bottom drivers. And put him into Force India, that last year ended in the middle/average position, and both drivers will be perceived as - average drivers.

Thus, as you noticed, this kind of rating is but a fiction.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by bourbon19 »

I got the surprise also. I voted from the thread title, didn't read anything and I started from the bottom and moved up the list. I noted that I was rising toward the top drivers and figured I'd land somewhere around the middle - but then I hit...

Button?

So then I ignored the listing and just thought to stop when I hit average. Hit DiResta and thought - yeah he is average. Good, not great, steady, safe, hard worker, racing blood, may win one day - average. I didn't think to see a landslide vote though. That's a lotta votes!

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by aryaputhra »

RunningMan wrote:Well, Di Resta seems to be the popular choice


Clearly PF1 members are biased against Scots (or is that Italian Scots :o ) )

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by dizlexik »

Laura23 wrote:That's just your opinion. Fact is Force India are bang in the middle of the order. They are the average joe of F1. Not great, not terrible, just good.

Exactly.
eeee

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r41
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by r41 »

That should actually be a praise to PDR, at least he's not... that slow xD

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Bahamut19 »

uk in ny wrote:
Race2win wrote:
uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.

How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?


Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.

But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?



Yeah, but you're saying that Button is the 11th best driver on the grid. To put this in perspective he has the 17th most wins of all time. He ranks 5th of all time in total races finished in the points.

Now I know longer F1 seasons in recent years and car quality have a huge impact on these stats, but the fact that he's just started his 14th F1 season should speak for itself. Very few drivers ever last that long unless they are exceptionally talented. Think about how many drivers have entered and left the sport since 2001. Then think about the fact that Button has out lived all of them. He's the only driver left who competed the 2000 WDC. Whether he's on par with Alonso et al is a debate for another time, but to say that he's an average driver is a joke.

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by funkymonkey »

Damn, I did not think Di Resta is rated this highly in PF1. :D

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Re: The Average Driver

Post by AngusWolfe »

Bahamut19 wrote:
uk in ny wrote:
Race2win wrote:
uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.

How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?


Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.

But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?



Yeah, but you're saying that Button is the 11th best driver on the grid. To put this in perspective he has the 17th most wins of all time. He ranks 5th of all time in total races finished in the points.

Now I know longer F1 seasons in recent years and car quality have a huge impact on these stats, but the fact that he's just started his 14th F1 season should speak for itself. Very few drivers ever last that long unless they are exceptionally talented. Think about how many drivers have entered and left the sport since 2001. Then think about the fact that Button has out lived all of them. He's the only driver left who competed the 2000 WDC. Whether he's on par with Alonso et al is a debate for another time, but to say that he's an average driver is a joke.

Ever thought that those stats may be helped by the fact that he IS into his 14th season? Nothing against JB, but do that as a percentage and I imagine he isn't so high.
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Re: The Average Driver

Post by Bahamut19 »

AngusWolfe wrote:
Bahamut19 wrote:
uk in ny wrote:
Race2win wrote:
uk in ny wrote:I am going to go with both Mclaren drivers.
Button is solid and smart, but just doesn't have the electric pace that others do. He cannot push to the same limits. I consider him a very very 'good' driver.

How can someone be, as you say a, "Very Very Good Driver"
and still be Bad compared to the rest of the field? That too someone who has won multiple races and a championship?


Simple really. EVERY driver in F1 is, in reality, exceptional compared to us mere mortals. Put Me and Karun Chandhok in the same car on a race track and I am 100% sure he would whup me. Button, by being a F1 driver simply has to be a "very very good driver" his reactions, fitness, control and bravery have to be far far in excess of mine or even the very best road drivers.

But this poll is about the 'Average' F1 driver. i.e the mid point of an elite group. Its like saying who is the "average" player for Manchester United. They are all brilliant, but just how brilliant?



Yeah, but you're saying that Button is the 11th best driver on the grid. To put this in perspective he has the 17th most wins of all time. He ranks 5th of all time in total races finished in the points.

Now I know longer F1 seasons in recent years and car quality have a huge impact on these stats, but the fact that he's just started his 14th F1 season should speak for itself. Very few drivers ever last that long unless they are exceptionally talented. Think about how many drivers have entered and left the sport since 2001. Then think about the fact that Button has out lived all of them. He's the only driver left who competed the 2000 WDC. Whether he's on par with Alonso et al is a debate for another time, but to say that he's an average driver is a joke.

Ever thought that those stats may be helped by the fact that he IS into his 14th season? Nothing against JB, but do that as a percentage and I imagine he isn't so high.


No, of course he isn't. He is, however, miles above average. Most drivers never win a race at all. Most never make it to their hundredth GP, let alone 200, with no sign of stopping. All I'm saying is that there is a reason that he's a WDC, and there's a reason he's racing at one of the top teams on the grid at the tail end of his career.

To put it another way, he was, at best, slightly beaten by Hamilton over 3 seasons. If Button is average, that would put Hamilton slightly above average. I don't mean to come across as rude or dismissive of other people's opinions, but I find it a bit frustrating because Button shouldn't even be a contender for this pole, let alone in (an admittedly distant) third place.

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BlueSharky
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:29 am
Location: New Delhi, India

Re: The Average Driver

Post by BlueSharky »

Eat humble pie, y'all!

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r41
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:55 am

Re: The Average Driver

Post by r41 »

BlueSharky wrote:Eat humble pie, y'all!


:thumbup:

Bacus
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: The Average Driver

Post by Bacus »

I'm not getting carried away by his 4th place today, DiResta also for me the average driver :D

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RacingFan1
Posts: 2250
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:25 am
Location: Paddock

Re: The Average Driver

Post by RacingFan1 »

Blake wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:Vettel and Alonso 1 vote each!
Lewis 2 votes!! Oh you crazy people lol how could anyone actually think them as average lol


This is why virtually every poll on such forums is totally worthless. There are always those who think they are "cute" or are either so damn dumb that they do not know any better. Either way, it invalidates every poll,
:thumbdown:


This is internet, they are troll votes, get over it. The important thing is that who gets most votes.


PS: I voted for Nico Rosberg, he has always been average IMO, he usually always ends up on the points position and he rarely ever fights for the win or podiums. Reminds me of Nick Heidfeld. Hamilton is gonna beat him for sure.

And looking at the poll result, i dont understand why there is such a high consensous about Paul Di Resta... :-|

kamidadevil
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:59 am

Re: The Average Driver

Post by kamidadevil »

has to be a tie between Webber and Button. Absolutely nothing special about both of them.

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runningman67
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: The Average Driver

Post by runningman67 »

I wish I was as average as Paul Di Resta :]

FormulaFun
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: The Average Driver

Post by FormulaFun »

BlueSharky wrote:Eat humble pie, y'all!


wow he got a 4th place finish when he was in a solid car and a few cars which probably would have beaten him also had issues... he's still average in my opinion

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