Sutil's return to China

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ottostreet
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Sutil's return to China

Post by ottostreet »

We all remember Sutil at China 2011 had his little 'trouble'.

Whatever happened to all the talk about him possibly not being able to return to China/encountering legal problems in China?

Has it all disappeared now?

Nosebuckle
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Nosebuckle »

I don't think it was ever a problem in the first place. He was never tried in China, his case was transferred to Germany.

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UnlikeUday
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by UnlikeUday »

ottostreet wrote:We all remember Sutil at China 2011 had his little 'trouble'.

Whatever happened to all the talk about him possibly not being able to return to China/encountering legal problems in China?

Has it all disappeared now?


Had there been even a 10% chance of some issue, Sutil would've not gotten the seat.

Force India must've verified across all of the countries where the races would take place & see if Sutil would face any kind of issue. They would not sign him without doing their homework.
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LookButNeverStare
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by LookButNeverStare »

UnlikeUday wrote:
ottostreet wrote:We all remember Sutil at China 2011 had his little 'trouble'.

Whatever happened to all the talk about him possibly not being able to return to China/encountering legal problems in China?

Has it all disappeared now?


Had there been even a 10% chance of some issue, Sutil would've not gotten the seat.

Force India must've verified across all of the countries where the races would take place & see if Sutil would face any kind of issue. They would not sign him without doing their homework.


Exactly my thoughts!!!!!!!

ottostreet
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by ottostreet »

Well, that's great. Just reading Sutils pre China comments 'Not my favourite track in the world' made me remember he had that thing two years ago.

Jim Speedy
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Jim Speedy »

That would be where he slipped and broke a glass on the throat of the Lotus owner........its funny how all the talk of his effeminate running has stopped!

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minchy
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by minchy »

UnlikeUday wrote:
ottostreet wrote:We all remember Sutil at China 2011 had his little 'trouble'.

Whatever happened to all the talk about him possibly not being able to return to China/encountering legal problems in China?

Has it all disappeared now?


Had there been even a 10% chance of some issue, Sutil would've not gotten the seat.

Force India must've verified across all of the countries where the races would take place & see if Sutil would face any kind of issue. They would not sign him without doing their homework.

:thumbup:
Exactly right, he was lucky to get a GBH/ABH (?) with a suspended sentance. I have a friend who did exactly the same thing (i.e. broken glass in someone's neck whilst drunk) and got attempted murder and served 9 years. Now he has a hard time going anywhere outside the EU.

(just as a disclaimer, my friend had previous assault charges which is why they were hard in him him compared to Sutil's case)
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becker
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by becker »

China is one of those places where a bribe fixes just about any problem.

LookButNeverStare
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by LookButNeverStare »

becker wrote:China is one of those places where a bribe fixes just about any problem.

OFF-Topic Mate!!!!

DrG
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by DrG »

LookButNeverStare wrote:
becker wrote:China is one of those places where a bribe fixes just about any problem.

OFF-Topic Mate!!!!

How is that off topic. I am assuming that becker is insinuating that Sutil would not have a problem racing in China cause FI could pay a bribe to make sure the problem goes away. Right or wrong, it's on topic to me :)

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Jo_
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Jo_ »

I find it interesting that Sutil has been able to gain entry to all the countries on the calendar. The offence for which he is convicted is a significant issue when it comes to Visas in at least four of the countries they visit outside Europe, China being one of them. (I exclude Europe because Sutil's transit between countries will be different there given Germany is part of the EU.)

Obviously there are provisions for special circumstances. It may be that it has been waived on the grounds of the purpose for which he is traveling and what he will do while he is in the country. However, given his offence occurred as part of the same circumstances last time, as in, he assaulted someone who was part of Formula 1 in the course of activities with other Formula 1 people, I am not entirely convinced.

It's probably an unpopular thing to say, but I don't agree with him being given special treatment because I don't see any valid reasons for it.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Race2win »

@JO: I guess given the fact that his past has been crime free could be a ground for him being allowed. Although I do agree he did cause GBH, a journo after viewing the video of the incident at the club, did point out that, Lux did provoke him. So that factor wouldve have definitely been taken into consideration when he was handed out the suspended sentence. His court documents would mention that, as well as, that he is OK to travel.
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MrGordon
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by MrGordon »

Apparently Vijay grounded him for the weekend and he's only allowed out of the motorhome for on track sessions.

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minchy
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by minchy »

MrGordon wrote:Apparently Vijay grounded him for the weekend and he's only allowed out of the motorhome for on track sessions.

Does that mean he's staying in the motorhome for the weekend, not a hotel?
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MrGordon
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by MrGordon »

minchy wrote:
MrGordon wrote:Apparently Vijay grounded him for the weekend and he's only allowed out of the motorhome for on track sessions.

Does that mean he's staying in the motorhome for the weekend, not a hotel?


Yes, they installed a high security closet to contain him.

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minchy
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by minchy »

MrGordon wrote:
minchy wrote:
MrGordon wrote:Apparently Vijay grounded him for the weekend and he's only allowed out of the motorhome for on track sessions.

Does that mean he's staying in the motorhome for the weekend, not a hotel?


Yes, they installed a high security closet to contain him.

complete with straight-jacket, face mask and trolley wheels? :twisted:
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Race2win »

minchy wrote:
MrGordon wrote:
minchy wrote:
MrGordon wrote:Apparently Vijay grounded him for the weekend and he's only allowed out of the motorhome for on track sessions.

Does that mean he's staying in the motorhome for the weekend, not a hotel?

Yes, they installed a high security closet to contain him.

complete with straight-jacket, face mask and trolley wheels? :twisted:

Face mask huh?? How does he eat then? Do they puree his food and feed him with a straw?
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SilverstoneRegular
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by SilverstoneRegular »

Perhaps him and Lewis can go for a drink after Sundays race and sort all their issues out
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McPrancingBull
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by McPrancingBull »

SilverstoneRegular wrote:Perhaps him and Lewis can go for a drink after Sundays race and sort all their issues out


:twisted: :lol: :thumbup: very witty..
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Jo_
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Jo_ »

Race2win wrote:@JO: I guess given the fact that his past has been crime free could be a ground for him being allowed. Although I do agree he did cause GBH, a journo after viewing the video of the incident at the club, did point out that, Lux did provoke him. So that factor wouldve have definitely been taken into consideration when he was handed out the suspended sentence. His court documents would mention that, as well as, that he is OK to travel.

That Sutil has a conviction is the most relevant, regardless of the sentence that is handed down in those circumstances. What I mean by that is that just because a suspended sentence is awarded doesn't alter whether or not it is a problem for a Visa application. Sutil does have circumstances that he can use to argue that he should be granted entry regardless of the conviction and those would be similar to the mitigating circumstances presented to the court to be granted a suspended sentence, but people have been denied entry to countries for lesser assaults that occurred longer ago, even if they have an equally clean record to Sutil's otherwise. Countries are quite strict when it comes to matters like this.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Race2win »

@JO: Not saying I disagree with what you said. But the fact that he has been given the exception would point to what I said. Also, sometimes the Law should consider that in rare cases, the guy a his whole career at stake here. I know its probably happened before. But its not necessary it should happen again. Sometimes a minor punishment is a big enough sentence for some people to change their ways.
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Jo_
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Jo_ »

Race2win wrote:@JO: Not saying I disagree with what you said. But the fact that he has been given the exception would point to what I said. Also, sometimes the Law should consider that in rare cases, the guy a his whole career at stake here. I know its probably happened before. But its not necessary it should happen again. Sometimes a minor punishment is a big enough sentence for some people to change their ways.

Or his exception could point to the fact that he has been given special treatment because he is part of a major sport and connected with powerful people who can lobby on his behalf.

On the evidence and conviction I don't see how Sutil has particularly mitigating factors that differ from others. Assaulting someone is pretty serious, and glassing is seen as particularly so. What makes anyone assume that he is any different to someone else who does that? Because he's an F1 driver with a successful career? That's not a representation of someone's character nor is it IMO a justification for downplaying the crime or offering someone special exemptions when it comes to entry into a country.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Race2win »

@JO: From your post, Im not sure if your trying to justify that he shouldnt be allowed to travel/race because of his conviction. Lets face it there are far worse criminals travelling between countries, which many authorities in many countries know about, but are incapable of apprehending them or just choose to ignore and more notorious than Sutil. You say he has been let off lightly because he belong to a prestigious sport and has friends in high places, it is possible but not necessarily true. Its not a good thing to demonize everyone who has commited a crime, especially if it wasnt intentional. Thats all Im saying.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by hittheapex »

Race2win wrote:@JO: From your post, Im not sure if your trying to justify that he shouldnt be allowed to travel/race because of his conviction. Lets face it there are far worse criminals travelling between countries, which many authorities in many countries know about, but are incapable of apprehending them or just choose to ignore and more notorious than Sutil. You say he has been let off lightly because he belong to a prestigious sport and has friends in high places, it is possible but not necessarily true. Its not a good thing to demonize everyone who has commited a crime, especially if it wasnt intentional. Thats all Im saying.


Perhaps it was an accident, perhaps it wasn't. One thing is for sure, he did not prove to the court it was anything other than a deliberate assault and on those grounds I can only agree with Jo. Sometimes yes, a minor punishment is enough to make someone change. It's a gamble though when you talk about serious crimes such as what Sutil did, accident or not.

If it was up to me I'd judge that person on their subsequent record afterwards. If they stay clean for 2 years, I'd ignore the previous conviction and let them into the country. I wouldn't let them in straight away and gamble on the safety of other people. Coincidentally, Sutil has now stayed clean for almost that length of time since the incident happened.

I would also add that your point in an earlier post about his whole career being at stake...actions have consequences. I believe in equality before the law. If I knock somebody's teeth out, why should I get a different sentence because I lost my job the week before?
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Toby. »

Completely agree with Jo and hittheapex on this one. Whether or not he's a celebrity or that it's his career at stake, he shouldn't receive preferential treatment because of it. Regardless of whether or not he didn't mean it or he's learnt his lesson, his punishment and restriction of travel should be no less than that of any other person convicted of the same crime.

Sutil is lucky he's a Formula One driver and not a businessman. It'd be a world different if he were.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Race2win »

I thought I mentioned this in my earlier post but now I see I havent. I agree hes lucky to be able to race again. But as "hittheapex" said a suspended sentence was given based on the fact that its not something that he does regularly and most likely not to repeat it again. Now, all what I said is only because we arent really sure what was the extent of damage caused to Lux. I presume that the suspended sentence meant that it wasnt too much although it was harm nonetheless. As mentioned earlier, I dont believe he should be demonized for something that wasnt started by him in the first place, and Im not defending or justifying his assualt either. Lastly this can be never ending debate about right or less right or wrong. But I do believe what decisions have been made by the court and the travel authorities of the respective countries is justified. Im not saying this because he is with FI or that Im a fan of his, Ive been quite critical of him in the past. Its just a humanitarian point of view. I also believe we should just put this in the past and look forward, its his life in his hands, whether he chooses to do better or go back to doing the same mistake its his decision. Many people in the Paddock trust him not to repeat it again so we'll leave it that and just look at his performance on track.
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UnlikeUday
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by UnlikeUday »

Had a big hunch that he would be included in the Chinese GP Pres conference schedule. No doubt, some journalist will ask a question about an incident that took place 2 years ago & embarrass Sutil.
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Jo_
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Jo_ »

Race2win wrote:@JO: From your post, Im not sure if your trying to justify that he shouldnt be allowed to travel/race because of his conviction. Lets face it there are far worse criminals travelling between countries, which many authorities in many countries know about, but are incapable of apprehending them or just choose to ignore and more notorious than Sutil. You say he has been let off lightly because he belong to a prestigious sport and has friends in high places, it is possible but not necessarily true. Its not a good thing to demonize everyone who has commited a crime, especially if it wasnt intentional. Thats all Im saying.

I don't think I'm demonizing Sutil.

Primarily what I am talking about is the system itself. It is extremely rare for someone with Sutil's conviction to be let into some countries, particularly so soon after the event and particularly given that he is coming to the country to do the same thing that he was doing when the incident occurred. Whilst I agree that it's not possible to completely rule out a normal acceptance of mitigating factors, based on what I know about immigration, I remain unconvinced and don't think the possibility of it being special treatment can be ruled out. I don't really think that comparing people who have lied is relevant because they're cheating the system, not being dealt with by it, and Sutil's conviction is known anyway. As hittheapex said, I believe in equality before the law. Whilst I know that it doesn't always happen, it is still something I would aspire towards.

Moreover, as hittheapex said, actions have consequences. If a person does the wrong thing and that interferes with their life then that's on their own head. The simple solution to that is not to do the wrong thing in the first place. If there are no consequences then the person is far less likely to learn. I would be sympathetic if it had been an accident, but the court didn't rule it that way and I really struggle to see how glassing someone can be an accident. I can understand regretting doing something like that and learning from it and certainly I believe in giving people second chances, but I also believe in taking responsibility and facing the consequences first. One of which is restricted travel.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by mcdo »

MrGordon wrote:
minchy wrote:
MrGordon wrote:Apparently Vijay grounded him for the weekend and he's only allowed out of the motorhome for on track sessions.

Does that mean he's staying in the motorhome for the weekend, not a hotel?


Yes, they installed a high security closet to contain him.

So will he be coming out of the closet after this weekend?
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Seanie
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Seanie »

All the talk of him only getting in because of money and being and F1 driver is rubbish.

You can still enter countries with convictions. Its just a more laborious process than normal. He would have had to apply for a visa declaring it and go for an interview and have his character assessed and it would take much longer than a normal work visa.

Its likely the reason behind Force India taking so long to announce him as their second driver. Are we really going to have this discussion every country we go to? Cause its tiring, he's been convicted, punishment has been given, he's returned to his career and is dealing with the consequences that come with it and managing to continue.

Why a select group of PF1 members seem to think he should be resigned to never getting on with his life, I do not know...
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by Jo_ »

Seanie wrote:All the talk of him only getting in because of money and being and F1 driver is rubbish.

You can still enter countries with convictions. Its just a more laborious process than normal. He would have had to apply for a visa declaring it and go for an interview and have his character assessed and it would take much longer than a normal work visa.

Its likely the reason behind Force India taking so long to announce him as their second driver. Are we really going to have this discussion every country we go to? Cause its tiring, he's been convicted, punishment has been given, he's returned to his career and is dealing with the consequences that come with it and managing to continue.

Why a select group of PF1 members seem to think he should be resigned to never getting on with his life, I do not know...

It's not rubbish. A person can go through that whole process you have described, but it's not a guarantee that they will be allowed entry to the country. Certainly in Australia very rarely would a person with Sutil's conviction and the timeframe since it happened be accepted regardless of what justifications were provided. And Australia is not the most strict when it comes to immigration matters. It's perfectly valid to suggest that he may have been given special treatment.

As for the discussion itself, I find it rather strange to suggest it shouldn't be discussed. A discussion of Senna can barely take place without him punting Prost off the track being mentioned, which is one incident in a very long career. And the same goes for incidents in the careers of drivers such as Schumacher and Alonso. Those things come up all the time. And that's fair enough because those are incidents that are controversial and people have differing opinions and, more than that, strong opinions. Why should this be any different? It might not be a racing matter, but it reflects on Sutil and is relevant to him as a personality in the sport as much as anything else. Why should it be ignored or treated as insignificant? I find it strange that it is treated as such a small thing when it is actually something so serious.

I'm certainly not advocating that Sutil not be allowed to get on with his life. However, the consequences of crimes extend beyond just the actual conviction and the punishment metered out for that and that is part of the consequences that should be faced. If a person has a conviction that impedes travel and travel is a requirement of their work, that is IMO just tough luck. Nobody forced the person to commit the crime in the first place and certainly in this instance nobody forced Sutil to assault Lux.
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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by funkymonkey »

becker wrote:China is one of those places where a bribe fixes just about any problem.


Empty enough coffers and have right connections, and you can replace China with any country on planet.

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Re: Sutil's return to China

Post by aryaputhra »

That's it - enough Sutil-bashing. I'm calling UnlikeUday for the defense.

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