planetf1.com

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:34 pm

Being Alonso's team mate has almost always been a hiding to nothing and will be even more so next season. He beats you and you've lost all credibility because you lost to a 40 year old that had been out of the sport for two seasons. You beat him and it's like - well yeah, so you should, he's 40 years old and been out of the sport two years. What do you want, a cookie?

I actually feel really sorry for Ocon who I think is a really good driver but has had a terrible deal out of F1. Going up against under rated Perez and then underrated Ricciardo after a year out and then Alonso.

I think he means instead of Alonso, anyway Vettel signed a multi-year deal with Aston Martin and Vettel was merely answering a question.

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:53 pm

At this point, Vettel wouldn't say no to Mercedes to be lined up with Lewis Hamilton. But we need to ask Lewis if that'd be OK.

Vettel: "I wouldn't say no to Mercedes"
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/73374/ve ... cedes.html

"Personally, I wouldn't say no to Mercedes, I don't think anyone would at the moment. I would like to drive next to Lewis, but you have to ask him if he wants to. But I think so, we have a lot of respect for each other."

If Russell drops the ball next year, perhaps it's not out of the question.

I would of liked to have seen him at Renault next season. If he can re find his form then I think he would of offered more than an 40 year old Fernando Alonso for a couple of seasons.

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Vettel V Ocon would have actually been very interesting.

Invade wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:53 pm

At this point, Vettel wouldn't say no to Mercedes to be lined up with Lewis Hamilton. But we need to ask Lewis if that'd be OK.

Vettel: "I wouldn't say no to Mercedes"
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/73374/ve ... cedes.html

"Personally, I wouldn't say no to Mercedes, I don't think anyone would at the moment. I would like to drive next to Lewis, but you have to ask him if he wants to. But I think so, we have a lot of respect for each other."

If Russell drops the ball next year, perhaps it's not out of the question.

I would of liked to have seen him at Renault next season. If he can re find his form then I think he would of offered more than an 40 year old Fernando Alonso for a couple of seasons.

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:53 pm

At this point, Vettel wouldn't say no to Mercedes to be lined up with Lewis Hamilton. But we need to ask Lewis if that'd be OK.

Vettel: "I wouldn't say no to Mercedes"
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/73374/ve ... cedes.html

"Personally, I wouldn't say no to Mercedes, I don't think anyone would at the moment. I would like to drive next to Lewis, but you have to ask him if he wants to. But I think so, we have a lot of respect for each other."

If Russell drops the ball next year, perhaps it's not out of the question.

I would of liked to have seen him at Renault next season. If he can re find his form then I think he would of offered more than an 40 year old Fernando Alonso for a couple of seasons.

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:02 pm

Vettel V Ocon would have actually been very interesting.

Based on teammate analysis, one expects that Vettel is actually pretty closely matched with Ocon. Make of that what one will, in terms of perceived value in F1...

I know we are only one weekend in, but the fact that Vettel couldn’t even match Stroll for pace is just tragic. Alonso has been out of the sport for years and beat Ocon right away.

Now when you combine that with Raikkonen looking no better than Giovinazzi these days, that 2018 Ferrari SF71 is beginning to look funny.

Looking back at 2018, Vettel’s season was actually bizarre. Every time it looked like he had Hamilton on the ropes, he made a catastrophic mistake right after.

- He drove one of the best races of his career in Bahrain, then a few weeks later made a ridiculous move on Bottas in Baku that cost him the win and gave the WDC lead back to Hamilton
- He won in dominant fashion in Canada, then crashed into Bottas in France
- He won in Silverstone with a great move for the win on Bottas, took pole in Germany, and then the race happened
- He won in dominant fashion at Spa, then Monza happened

He could not string a run of good results together if his life depended on it. Vettel has never been the most consistent driver, but what happened in 2018 was simply ridiculous. He wasn’t that error-prone from 2011-2017, that was just so strange.

At one point his form in 2018 was literally: win-mistake-win-mistake-win-mistake. I am obviously exaggerating but that is honestly what it felt like at the time.

Did the pressure of becoming Ferrari WDC really crush him that hard?

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:56 am

Did the pressure of becoming Ferrari WDC really crush him that hard?

IMO, the pressure of knowing all of:

a) He had choked a possible WDC opportunity the year before
b) This year's car was even better and it would be his failure if he didn't win
c) Hamilton is a better driver and he needed to overdrive to match him

Was too much for Vettel.

Throughout his Red Bull years, he had yet to come up against a better driver, and I think he genuinely believed at the time he was as quick as anyone. His self-confidence began to erode when he faced Ricciardo, but he escaped that challenge and went to Ferrari, probably managing to convince himself that he hadn't actually been beaten.

But when Ferrari finally developed a car that could challenge Mercedes -- a car that, no doubt, the engineers told him was actually quicker than the Mercedes -- and he was still struggling to defeat Lewis, some combination of his eroded self-confidence and the Ferrari pressure cooker struck, exposing a mental weakness that had always been present but was never fully tested at Red Bull.

Then the killer blow was when Charles Leclerc showed up and was immediately quicker despite Ferrari doing everything to favor Vettel. At that point, I think his self-confidence was irreparably damaged, and he is no longer the driver he was in his Red Bull days.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:56 am

I know we are only one weekend in, but the fact that Vettel couldn’t even match Stroll for pace is just tragic. Alonso has been out of the sport for years and beat Ocon right away.

Now when you combine that with Raikkonen looking no better than Giovinazzi these days, that 2018 Ferrari SF71 is beginning to look funny.

Looking back at 2018, Vettel’s season was actually bizarre. Every time it looked like he had Hamilton on the ropes, he made a catastrophic mistake right after.

- He drove one of the best races of his career in Bahrain, then a few weeks later made a ridiculous move on Bottas in Baku that cost him the win and gave the WDC lead back to Hamilton
- He won in dominant fashion in Canada, then crashed into Bottas in France
- He won in Silverstone with a great move for the win on Bottas, took pole in Germany, and then the race happened
- He won in dominant fashion at Spa, then Monza happened

He could not string a run of good results together if his life depended on it. Vettel has never been the most consistent driver, but what happened in 2018 was simply ridiculous. He wasn’t that error-prone from 2011-2017, that was just so strange.

At one point his form in 2018 was literally: win-mistake-win-mistake-win-mistake. I am obviously exaggerating but that is honestly what it felt like at the time.

Did the pressure of becoming Ferrari WDC really crush him that hard?

IMO the bold text sum's up your post TBH. Vettel made some mistakes, the luck was not in his favor and the pressure probably also got into him. Ferrari performance gets worse as the season goes. Driver performance should be judged after the year or at least after first half. As far as Alonso I think it will be a dream start if he can score points in his return.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:40 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:53 pm

At this point, Vettel wouldn't say no to Mercedes to be lined up with Lewis Hamilton. But we need to ask Lewis if that'd be OK.

Vettel: "I wouldn't say no to Mercedes"
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/73374/ve ... cedes.html

"Personally, I wouldn't say no to Mercedes, I don't think anyone would at the moment. I would like to drive next to Lewis, but you have to ask him if he wants to. But I think so, we have a lot of respect for each other."

If Russell drops the ball next year, perhaps it's not out of the question.

I would of liked to have seen him at Renault next season. If he can re find his form then I think he would of offered more than an 40 year old Fernando Alonso for a couple of seasons.

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

I would say Vettel actually had the best season of any driver in 2015, but 2016 - 2020, he did seem to get worse every year.

Regarding mistakes though, I don't think he made as many costly ones last year compared to 2019. He just looked like he had given up trying very hard aside from Turkey. But I can's say he performed better in 2020 than 2019. His pace looked a lot worse.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:40 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 pm

I would of liked to have seen him at Renault next season. If he can re find his form then I think he would of offered more than an 40 year old Fernando Alonso for a couple of seasons.

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

I would say Vettel actually had the best season of any driver in 2015, but 2016 - 2020, he did seem to get worse every year.

Regarding mistakes though, I don't think he made as many costly ones last year compared to 2019. He just looked like he had given up trying very hard aside from Turkey. But I can's say he performed better in 2020 than 2019. His pace looked a lot worse.

TBF how could he make as many costly mistakes when most of the time he was driving round outside the top 10?

I agree, 2015 he was great. As I said in my post though that was the last time I think he's driven like a tier 1 driver. From 2016 he's just made too many errors.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:48 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:40 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

I would say Vettel actually had the best season of any driver in 2015, but 2016 - 2020, he did seem to get worse every year.

Regarding mistakes though, I don't think he made as many costly ones last year compared to 2019. He just looked like he had given up trying very hard aside from Turkey. But I can's say he performed better in 2020 than 2019. His pace looked a lot worse.

TBF how could he make as many costly mistakes when most of the time he was driving round outside the top 10?

I agree, 2015 he was great. As I said in my post though that was the last time I think he's driven like a tier 1 driver. From 2016 he's just made too many errors.

There are just as many cars in the bottom 10 as the top 10

But yea, maybe he played it a bit to casually like Bottas sometimes does to get involved in as much.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:01 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:48 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:40 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

I would say Vettel actually had the best season of any driver in 2015, but 2016 - 2020, he did seem to get worse every year.

Regarding mistakes though, I don't think he made as many costly ones last year compared to 2019. He just looked like he had given up trying very hard aside from Turkey. But I can's say he performed better in 2020 than 2019. His pace looked a lot worse.

TBF how could he make as many costly mistakes when most of the time he was driving round outside the top 10?

I agree, 2015 he was great. As I said in my post though that was the last time I think he's driven like a tier 1 driver. From 2016 he's just made too many errors.

There are just as many cars in the bottom 10 as the top 10

But yea, maybe he played it a bit to casually like Bottas sometimes does to get involved in as much.

You said COSTLY mistakes. If he's out of the points then obviously any mistakes made are not going to be anything like as costly as if he made them well fighting for a win.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:48 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:40 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:42 am

I hardly doubt he'd offer more than Alonso based on his now sustained period of mediocre form. How bad would Alonso have to be exactly to be as underwhelming as Vettel has been in the last couple of seasons...


Pretty damn bad by his standards.

Is Alonso gonna be "shot" at 40? I highly doubt it. Ocon is about to be pounded yet again by another A- to S-rank team-matey.

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

I would say Vettel actually had the best season of any driver in 2015, but 2016 - 2020, he did seem to get worse every year.

Regarding mistakes though, I don't think he made as many costly ones last year compared to 2019. He just looked like he had given up trying very hard aside from Turkey. But I can's say he performed better in 2020 than 2019. His pace looked a lot worse.

TBF how could he make as many costly mistakes when most of the time he was driving round outside the top 10?

I agree, 2015 he was great. As I said in my post though that was the last time I think he's driven like a tier 1 driver. From 2016 he's just made too many errors.

I think if you look at his relative pace against Raikkonen for the years they were together, there probably is evidence to show the steady decline of Vettel's talent. Even though Raikkonen was well into the typical retirement age, it looked as though he was getting closer to Vettel year on year. In 2015, I don't think there was much difference between Alonso vs Raikkonen and Vettel vs Raikkonen, most notably in qualifying. I do think his 2017 season was very strong as well though.

I think even his demeanour has shifted so far away to what he used to be like. He now approaches objectives being thankful for the position he's in, and that he sticks to his moral code. I don't think the Multi-21 Seb is there anymore at all.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:23 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:48 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:40 pm

Rotax Max 125 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:12 pm

Part of me does feel like the down turn is a lot down to pressure and being so desperate to win the championship for Ferrari. As soon as he made that error at hockenhiem two years ago his composure rapidly fell apart. And it was made worse by in desperation to claw it back last year. If he was brought into Renault as team leader and without the expectation of bringing home the world championship part of me thinks its possible he would come back into his own.

I think going back to as early as 2016 Vettel was making too many mistakes. I agree it's gotten worse year on year though.

I would say Vettel actually had the best season of any driver in 2015, but 2016 - 2020, he did seem to get worse every year.

Regarding mistakes though, I don't think he made as many costly ones last year compared to 2019. He just looked like he had given up trying very hard aside from Turkey. But I can's say he performed better in 2020 than 2019. His pace looked a lot worse.

TBF how could he make as many costly mistakes when most of the time he was driving round outside the top 10?

I agree, 2015 he was great. As I said in my post though that was the last time I think he's driven like a tier 1 driver. From 2016 he's just made too many errors.

I think if you look at his relative pace against Raikkonen for the years they were together, there probably is evidence to show the steady decline of Vettel's talent. Even though Raikkonen was well into the typical retirement age, it looked as though he was getting closer to Vettel year on year. In 2015, I don't think there was much difference between Alonso vs Raikkonen and Vettel vs Raikkonen, most notably in qualifying. I do think his 2017 season was very strong as well though.

I think even his demeanour has shifted so far away to what he used to be like. He now approaches objectives being thankful for the position he's in, and that he sticks to his moral code. I don't think the Multi-21 Seb is there anymore at all.

I don't agree. Look at Russia 2019.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:19 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:56 am

Did the pressure of becoming Ferrari WDC really crush him that hard?

IMO, the pressure of knowing all of:

a) He had choked a possible WDC opportunity the year before
b) This year's car was even better and it would be his failure if he didn't win
c) Hamilton is a better driver and he needed to overdrive to match him

Was too much for Vettel.

Throughout his Red Bull years, he had yet to come up against a better driver, and I think he genuinely believed at the time he was as quick as anyone. His self-confidence began to erode when he faced Ricciardo, but he escaped that challenge and went to Ferrari, probably managing to convince himself that he hadn't actually been beaten.

But when Ferrari finally developed a car that could challenge Mercedes -- a car that, no doubt, the engineers told him was actually quicker than the Mercedes -- and he was still struggling to defeat Lewis, some combination of his eroded self-confidence and the Ferrari pressure cooker struck, exposing a mental weakness that had always been present but was never fully tested at Red Bull.

Then the killer blow was when Charles Leclerc showed up and was immediately quicker despite Ferrari doing everything to favor Vettel. At that point, I think his self-confidence was irreparably damaged, and he is no longer the driver he was in his Red Bull days.

Interesting take.

Sounds about right.

For the love of god please retire already

I think he's simply lost a step if you will. Obviously Leclerc isn't the fastest man on the planet like some may have thought the last couple of years, so the other explanation is Vettel's rapid decline. Some people lose it faster than others. In hindsight compared to ROS who we now know for sure is an outstanding driver, what MS was able to do at 41-43 was remarkable but people thought at 41 he was declining or he simply was never that fast to begin with.

All my hyperbolic quadruple Villeneuve comments are coming true by the looks of it. It's a real shame because he absolutely looked the real deal in 2015.

What does that say about Mark Webber though? I mean he was often getting trounced by Quad-Villeneuve!

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:03 pm

What does that say about Mark Webber though? I mean he was often getting trounced by Quad-Villeneuve!

Webber was clearly in sharp decline from 2011- but yeah it's not good. You do wonder what Hamilton or Alonso would have done in those Red Bulls. Might have easily won in 2009 and won 10+ races per year from 2010-2013.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:05 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:03 pm

What does that say about Mark Webber though? I mean he was often getting trounced by Quad-Villeneuve!

Webber was clearly in sharp decline from 2011- but yeah it's not good. You do wonder what Hamilton or Alonso would have done in those Red Bulls. Might have easily won in 2009 and won 10+ races per year from 2010-2013.

LOL, so we are just going to rewrite history, and say what X would have achieved in what car.

Whatever is wrong with Vettel today does not take away from what he has achieved in the past and the style in which he achieved it.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:05 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:03 pm

What does that say about Mark Webber though? I mean he was often getting trounced by Quad-Villeneuve!

Webber was clearly in sharp decline from 2011- but yeah it's not good. You do wonder what Hamilton or Alonso would have done in those Red Bulls. Might have easily won in 2009 and won 10+ races per year from 2010-2013.

Haa the good old one Webber was in decline.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:22 pm

For the love of god please retire already

Are you actually that desperate for him to retire. This was a pretty big mistake, but his race really wasn't bad at all until this point. The way he was fighting was excellent and brundle pointed this out. He had excellent defending with other drivers too. Until his moment with Ocon, he showed that he still is very capable.

He makes mistakes a little too often, but he still shows his skill to me. If he didn't then the level of mistakes would also make me think he should retire. But his first stint was really good so i think we should give him a bit more time. I still believe that if Vettel gets comfortable with the car, he will be up there with the great drivers a lot of the time in terms of getting the most out of the car.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:26 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:22 pm

For the love of god please retire already

Are you actually that desperate for him to retire. This was a pretty big mistake, but his race really wasn't bad at all until this point. The way he was fighting was excellent and brundle pointed this out. He had excellent defending with other drivers too. Until his moment with Ocon, he showed that he still is very capable.

He makes mistakes a little too often, but he still shows his skill to me. If he didn't then the level of mistakes would also make me think he should retire. But his first stint was really good so i think we should give him a bit more time. I still believe that if Vettel gets comfortable with the car, he will be up there with the great drivers a lot of the time in terms of getting the most out of the car.

For someone usually so hard on certain drivers for making mistakes you sure like to put a positive spin on Vettel.

Are Vettel's spins positive or negative?

Has a study of this been conducted at the quantum level?


Thanks in advance.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:42 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:26 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:22 pm

For the love of god please retire already

Are you actually that desperate for him to retire. This was a pretty big mistake, but his race really wasn't bad at all until this point. The way he was fighting was excellent and brundle pointed this out. He had excellent defending with other drivers too. Until his moment with Ocon, he showed that he still is very capable.

He makes mistakes a little too often, but he still shows his skill to me. If he didn't then the level of mistakes would also make me think he should retire. But his first stint was really good so i think we should give him a bit more time. I still believe that if Vettel gets comfortable with the car, he will be up there with the great drivers a lot of the time in terms of getting the most out of the car.

For someone usually so hard on certain drivers for making mistakes you sure like to put a positive spin on Vettel.

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey and Hungary.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:52 pm

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey.

Well in the bottom line sense he's been poor for the whole season thus far.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:52 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:42 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:26 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:22 pm

For the love of god please retire already

Are you actually that desperate for him to retire. This was a pretty big mistake, but his race really wasn't bad at all until this point. The way he was fighting was excellent and brundle pointed this out. He had excellent defending with other drivers too. Until his moment with Ocon, he showed that he still is very capable.

He makes mistakes a little too often, but he still shows his skill to me. If he didn't then the level of mistakes would also make me think he should retire. But his first stint was really good so i think we should give him a bit more time. I still believe that if Vettel gets comfortable with the car, he will be up there with the great drivers a lot of the time in terms of getting the most out of the car.

For someone usually so hard on certain drivers for making mistakes you sure like to put a positive spin on Vettel.

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey.

I highlighted the bit I disagree with. It's a lot more than few too many mistakes. It's far too many mistakes.

You wouldn't be so quick to excuse it from certain other drivers. You still harp on about a handful of crashes Sainz had back in 2017.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:53 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:52 pm

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey.

Well in the bottom line sense he's been poor for the whole season thus far.

Regarding penalties yes, but until that incident, i would say he was very good. So unless we 100% focus on that and qualifying, i wouldn't say he's been poor the whole time. That was just an obvious laps of concentration as he actually looked pretty comfortable with the car and was doing a lot of good driving in his first stint.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:56 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:53 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:52 pm

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey.

Well in the bottom line sense he's been poor for the whole season thus far.

Regarding penalties yes, but until that incident, i would say he was very good. So unless we 100% focus on that and qualifying, i wouldn't say he's been poor the whole time. That was just an obvious laps of concentration as he actually looked pretty comfortable with the car and was doing a lot of good driving in his first stint.

"Laps" of concentration is exactly what Vettel needs.

And not lapses of concentration.

Bottom line means bottom line! He mucked it up. It's not the journey it's the end result as far as F1 goes!

It was a poor weekend, going by the bottom line.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:56 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:52 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:42 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:26 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:22 pm

For the love of god please retire already

Are you actually that desperate for him to retire. This was a pretty big mistake, but his race really wasn't bad at all until this point. The way he was fighting was excellent and brundle pointed this out. He had excellent defending with other drivers too. Until his moment with Ocon, he showed that he still is very capable.

He makes mistakes a little too often, but he still shows his skill to me. If he didn't then the level of mistakes would also make me think he should retire. But his first stint was really good so i think we should give him a bit more time. I still believe that if Vettel gets comfortable with the car, he will be up there with the great drivers a lot of the time in terms of getting the most out of the car.

For someone usually so hard on certain drivers for making mistakes you sure like to put a positive spin on Vettel.

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey.

I highlighted the bit I disagree with. It's a lot more than few too many mistakes. It's far too many mistakes.

You wouldn't be so quick to excuse it from certain other drivers. You still harp on about a handful of crashes Sainz had back in 2017.

I am sort of excusing Vettel because if he shows the pace and racing skills he had a lot of the time today then when he gets more used to the team, he may well get some very solid results. That mistake was very clumsy, i can agree with that. I have indeed been harsh against Sainz and his mistakes, especially in 2017, but those incidents he had was worse than what vettel did here, but I don't think he really had signs of being at vettel's level when he's at his best. Don't take this as a comparison between the two as I currently certainly think Sainz is better than Vettel, I just still seem to believe that Vettel has still got more in him - he just struggles to get it out often enough, which is obviously a pretty big problem.

Vettel hasn't been at his best often at all recently, but i still think he looked better this race than most of the time last year, but his mistake did indeed ruin his result. Even Brundle respected his fighting against alonso.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:58 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:56 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:53 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:52 pm

You seem to be totally ignoring what i state right after what you have highlighted. It is the fact that he still shows great skill a lot of the time. That is why I concider it a few to many as if he didn't put in these solid performances in between, then i wouldn't have put it this way. Last year could be put like that though as he was poor virtually the whole season aside from Turkey.

Well in the bottom line sense he's been poor for the whole season thus far.

Regarding penalties yes, but until that incident, i would say he was very good. So unless we 100% focus on that and qualifying, i wouldn't say he's been poor the whole time. That was just an obvious laps of concentration as he actually looked pretty comfortable with the car and was doing a lot of good driving in his first stint.

"Laps" of concentration is exactly what Vettel needs.

And not lapses of concentration.

Bottom line means bottom line! He mucked it up. It's not the journey it's the end result as far as F1 goes!

It was a poor weekend, going by the bottom line.

hmm, yea, i means loss of concentration or blank moment. Or anything else that would describe it. I can't defend him for the incident. I can't say it was a good weekend as a whole, I just thought he looked more comfortable with the car than he did most of last year in the early stages of the race. Maybe I'm gettign my hopes up too soon for the rest of the season, but I still think he'll be somewhat better overall at this team than he was last year. He's obviously had a poor result to begin with.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:20 pm

hmm, yea, i means loss of concentration or blank moment. Or anything else that would describe it. I can't defend him for the incident. I can't say it was a good weekend as a whole, I just thought he looked more comfortable with the car than he did most of last year in the early stages of the race. Maybe I'm gettign my hopes up too soon for the rest of the season, but I still think he'll be somewhat better overall at this team than he was last year. He's obviously had a poor result to begin with.

Well I don't really see this first race as a definitive sign of things to come.

I expect Vettel to be better than Stroll.

Yeh it's a miserable start and he still needs to drag himself out of his hole. His immediate comments about his own incident pretty much shows that.

Take accountability...


But AM have had a slow start, Vettel hasn't had many laps, and they're just getting started.

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:22 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:20 pm

hmm, yea, i means loss of concentration or blank moment. Or anything else that would describe it. I can't defend him for the incident. I can't say it was a good weekend as a whole, I just thought he looked more comfortable with the car than he did most of last year in the early stages of the race. Maybe I'm gettign my hopes up too soon for the rest of the season, but I still think he'll be somewhat better overall at this team than he was last year. He's obviously had a poor result to begin with.

Well I don't really see this first race as a definitive sign of things to come.

I expect Vettel to be better than Stroll.

Yeh it's a miserable start and he still needs to drag himself out of his hole. His immediate comments about his own incident pretty much shows that.

Take accountability...


But AM have had a slow start, Vettel hasn't had many laps, and they're just getting started.

I thought Vettel looked as good or better than Stroll today until his incident. The incident played a big part obviously, but I don't think vettel's pace was lacking at all and I think yesterday was a little hard to judge. But he can have yesterday taken against him regarding the yellow flag incident, though he wasn't at fault for missing out on qualifying further up than Q1.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:22 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:20 pm

hmm, yea, i means loss of concentration or blank moment. Or anything else that would describe it. I can't defend him for the incident. I can't say it was a good weekend as a whole, I just thought he looked more comfortable with the car than he did most of last year in the early stages of the race. Maybe I'm gettign my hopes up too soon for the rest of the season, but I still think he'll be somewhat better overall at this team than he was last year. He's obviously had a poor result to begin with.

Well I don't really see this first race as a definitive sign of things to come.

I expect Vettel to be better than Stroll.

Yeh it's a miserable start and he still needs to drag himself out of his hole. His immediate comments about his own incident pretty much shows that.

Take accountability...


But AM have had a slow start, Vettel hasn't had many laps, and they're just getting started.

I thought Vettel looked as good or better than Stroll today until his incident. The incident played a big part obviously, but I don't think vettel's pace was lacking at all and I think yesterday was a little hard to judge. But he can have yesterday taken against him regarding the yellow flag incident, though he wasn't at fault for missing out on qualifying further up than Q1.

You really need to ignore them lol, Vettel schooling their fav in wheel to wheel combat though on older tyres was too much to take for them thus none mentioned it on the race thread but immediately jumped on his mistake it tells you all you need to know.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:59 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:22 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:20 pm

hmm, yea, i means loss of concentration or blank moment. Or anything else that would describe it. I can't defend him for the incident. I can't say it was a good weekend as a whole, I just thought he looked more comfortable with the car than he did most of last year in the early stages of the race. Maybe I'm gettign my hopes up too soon for the rest of the season, but I still think he'll be somewhat better overall at this team than he was last year. He's obviously had a poor result to begin with.

Well I don't really see this first race as a definitive sign of things to come.

I expect Vettel to be better than Stroll.

Yeh it's a miserable start and he still needs to drag himself out of his hole. His immediate comments about his own incident pretty much shows that.

Take accountability...


But AM have had a slow start, Vettel hasn't had many laps, and they're just getting started.

I thought Vettel looked as good or better than Stroll today until his incident. The incident played a big part obviously, but I don't think vettel's pace was lacking at all and I think yesterday was a little hard to judge. But he can have yesterday taken against him regarding the yellow flag incident, though he wasn't at fault for missing out on qualifying further up than Q1.

You really need to ignore them lol, Vettel schooling their fav in wheel to wheel combat though on older tyres was too much to take for them thus none mentioned it on the race thread but immediately jumped on his mistake it tells you all you need to know.

That it doesn't matter how well you race for a few laps if you end up running into the back of someone?

I refuse to believe that the guy I saw in 2011 is the same guy we are seeing today. He must have been kidnapped and replaced by his talentless twin brother.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:08 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:59 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:22 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:20 pm

hmm, yea, i means loss of concentration or blank moment. Or anything else that would describe it. I can't defend him for the incident. I can't say it was a good weekend as a whole, I just thought he looked more comfortable with the car than he did most of last year in the early stages of the race. Maybe I'm gettign my hopes up too soon for the rest of the season, but I still think he'll be somewhat better overall at this team than he was last year. He's obviously had a poor result to begin with.

Well I don't really see this first race as a definitive sign of things to come.

I expect Vettel to be better than Stroll.

Yeh it's a miserable start and he still needs to drag himself out of his hole. His immediate comments about his own incident pretty much shows that.

Take accountability...


But AM have had a slow start, Vettel hasn't had many laps, and they're just getting started.

I thought Vettel looked as good or better than Stroll today until his incident. The incident played a big part obviously, but I don't think vettel's pace was lacking at all and I think yesterday was a little hard to judge. But he can have yesterday taken against him regarding the yellow flag incident, though he wasn't at fault for missing out on qualifying further up than Q1.

You really need to ignore them lol, Vettel schooling their fav in wheel to wheel combat though on older tyres was too much to take for them thus none mentioned it on the race thread but immediately jumped on his mistake it tells you all you need to know.

That it doesn't matter how well you race for a few laps if you end up running into the back of someone?

Not sure if it was you or not, but when I pointed out that Bottas at least managed to finish the race in Turkey despite being awful in it, and Vettel in germany 2018 got brought up as a comparison. And we were basically discussing what was worse. Having a solid majority of the race, then binning it or having a poor race and still at least finishing. I think almost everyone in that instance considered Vettel to have been better despite binning it.

In today's instance, Vettel made a smaller error than he did then, and looked pretty good before it. I feel some people are judging this somewhat differently to the discussion i'm referring to in Germany.

Edit. I don't want to defend him too much. Who I'm more against are those insisting he's bad enough to needs to retire.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:23 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:08 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:59 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:22 pm

Well I don't really see this first race as a definitive sign of things to come.

I expect Vettel to be better than Stroll.

Yeh it's a miserable start and he still needs to drag himself out of his hole. His immediate comments about his own incident pretty much shows that.

Take accountability...


But AM have had a slow start, Vettel hasn't had many laps, and they're just getting started.

I thought Vettel looked as good or better than Stroll today until his incident. The incident played a big part obviously, but I don't think vettel's pace was lacking at all and I think yesterday was a little hard to judge. But he can have yesterday taken against him regarding the yellow flag incident, though he wasn't at fault for missing out on qualifying further up than Q1.

You really need to ignore them lol, Vettel schooling their fav in wheel to wheel combat though on older tyres was too much to take for them thus none mentioned it on the race thread but immediately jumped on his mistake it tells you all you need to know.

That it doesn't matter how well you race for a few laps if you end up running into the back of someone?

Not sure if it was you or not, but when I pointed out that Bottas at least managed to finish the race in Turkey despite being awful in it, and Vettel in germany 2018 got brought up as a comparison. And we were basically discussing what was worse. Having a solid majority of the race, then binning it or having a poor race and still at least finishing. I think almost everyone in that instance considered Vettel to have been better despite binning it.

In today's instance, Vettel made a smaller error than he did then, and looked pretty good before it. I feel some people are judging this somewhat differently to the discussion i'm referring to in Germany.

Including yourself of course who insisted Bottas' race was better.

Anyway, it's a really bizarre comparison. Nobody is saying Vettel performed worse here than Bottas in Turkey. Obviously the whole race matters to some degree. People don't really think a driver is due to praise for a race where he made a very big mistake.