Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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BMWSauber84
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Vettel's relationships with the two men who have probably been his biggest rivals over the seasons, Alonso and Hamilton are very contrasting (You could make a case for Webber but that was magnified by being teammates).

I watched a snippet of an interview with Alonso just after Seb wrapped up title number 4.While he said that Seb would go down as one of the legends, he subsequently warned that those 4 titles would be a burden when Vettel found himself in a car like everybody elses. I just don't get the imoression that Alonso has ever had a great deal of respect for his abilities. It seemed the animosity was a bit one sided, although Horner was the one who'd poke back at Alonso.

Vettel and Hamilton have had ups and downs and Hamilton clearly believes he is better than Seb. But outside of the heat of battle they have tended to say some very warm things about each other. In 2013 Hamilton called him humble and deserving of success as I recall. The respect still being there despite being head to head in two championship fights in a role is refreshing.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

BMWSauber84 wrote:Vettel's relationships with the two men who have probably been his biggest rivals over the seasons, Alonso and Hamilton are very contrasting (You could make a case for Webber but that was magnified by being teammates).

I watched a snippet of an interview with Alonso just after Seb wrapped up title number 4.While he said that Seb would go down as one of the legends, he subsequently warned that those 4 titles would be a burden when Vettel found himself in a car like everybody elses. I just don't get the imoression that Alonso has ever had a great deal of respect for his abilities. It seemed the animosity was a bit one sided, although Horner was the one who'd poke back at Alonso.

Vettel and Hamilton have had ups and downs and Hamilton clearly believes he is better than Seb. But outside of the heat of battle they have tended to say some very warm things about each other. In 2013 Hamilton called him humble and deserving of success as I recall. The respect still being there despite being head to head in two championship fights in a role is refreshing.
Yeah Vettel is a 4 time WDC and one of the best drivers on the grid and should be respected as such.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

BMWSauber84 wrote:Vettel's relationships with the two men who have probably been his biggest rivals over the seasons, Alonso and Hamilton are very contrasting (You could make a case for Webber but that was magnified by being teammates).

I watched a snippet of an interview with Alonso just after Seb wrapped up title number 4.While he said that Seb would go down as one of the legends, he subsequently warned that those 4 titles would be a burden when Vettel found himself in a car like everybody elses. I just don't get the imoression that Alonso has ever had a great deal of respect for his abilities. It seemed the animosity was a bit one sided, although Horner was the one who'd poke back at Alonso.

Vettel and Hamilton have had ups and downs and Hamilton clearly believes he is better than Seb. But outside of the heat of battle they have tended to say some very warm things about each other. In 2013 Hamilton called him humble and deserving of success as I recall. The respect still being there despite being head to head in two championship fights in a role is refreshing.
To be fair Alonso has said some nice things in the past, around the halfway point in 2013 I seem to remember him saying something like "last year he won because he had the best car, this year he's winning because he's been the best driver".

I don't think it helped matters that Vettel moved to Ferrari just as they were on the up and started lapping Alonso, that understandably cant have felt good. I do think the occasional digs at Vettel are a shame though because as you say it all seems a bit one sided and I don't think Alonso does himself justice when he says them.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:Vettel's relationships with the two men who have probably been his biggest rivals over the seasons, Alonso and Hamilton are very contrasting (You could make a case for Webber but that was magnified by being teammates).

I watched a snippet of an interview with Alonso just after Seb wrapped up title number 4.While he said that Seb would go down as one of the legends, he subsequently warned that those 4 titles would be a burden when Vettel found himself in a car like everybody elses. I just don't get the imoression that Alonso has ever had a great deal of respect for his abilities. It seemed the animosity was a bit one sided, although Horner was the one who'd poke back at Alonso.

Vettel and Hamilton have had ups and downs and Hamilton clearly believes he is better than Seb. But outside of the heat of battle they have tended to say some very warm things about each other. In 2013 Hamilton called him humble and deserving of success as I recall. The respect still being there despite being head to head in two championship fights in a role is refreshing.
To be fair Alonso has said some nice things in the past, around the halfway point in 2013 I seem to remember him saying something like "last year he won because he had the best car, this year he's winning because he's been the best driver".

I don't think it helped matters that Vettel moved to Ferrari just as they were on the up and started lapping Alonso, that understandably cant have felt good. I do think the occasional digs at Vettel are a shame though because as you say it all seems a bit one sided and I don't think Alonso does himself justice when he says them.
I think it can be seen as jealousy from Alonso, some of things he says fast propels him to being a Stewart/JV kind of figure.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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pokerman wrote:I think it can be seen as jealousy from Alonso, some of things he says fast propels him to being a Stewart/JV kind of figure.
There's no similiarity between being a Jackie Stewart and being a Jacques Villeneuve.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think it can be seen as jealousy from Alonso, some of things he says fast propels him to being a Stewart/JV kind of figure.
There's no similiarity between being a Jackie Stewart and being a Jacques Villeneuve.
...as in giving opinions that nobody really wants to listen to?
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think it can be seen as jealousy from Alonso, some of things he says fast propels him to being a Stewart/JV kind of figure.
There's no similiarity between being a Jackie Stewart and being a Jacques Villeneuve.
...as in giving opinions that nobody really wants to listen to?
This makes more sense, I was confused as well as to what you meant!

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:I think it can be seen as jealousy from Alonso, some of things he says fast propels him to being a Stewart/JV kind of figure.
There's no similiarity between being a Jackie Stewart and being a Jacques Villeneuve.
...as in giving opinions that nobody really wants to listen to?
This makes more sense, I was confused as well as to what you meant!
Fair enough :)
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Someone want to explain to me what happened to Sebastian's driving talent this afternoon??? :?

That was abysmal!! :uhoh:

Max's stupidity sucked all the oxygen out of the room after the race. Didn't hear why Vettel couldn't get out of his own way.

Looked to me like he had trouble selecting a gear at the start of the pace lap.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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Soft tyres weren’t an advantage after all. Valtteri getting past at turn 1 threw the strategy out the window.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Mort Canard wrote:Someone want to explain to me what happened to Sebastian's driving talent this afternoon??? :?

That was abysmal!! :uhoh:

Max's stupidity sucked all the oxygen out of the room after the race. Didn't hear why Vettel couldn't get out of his own way.

Looked to me like he had trouble selecting a gear at the start of the pace lap.
Malfunctioning sensor on the formation lap which apparently affected his race pace.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Mort Canard »

shay550 wrote:Soft tyres weren’t an advantage after all. Valtteri getting past at turn 1 threw the strategy out the window.
Yeah, Kimi had those problems too. Not often you see Arrivabene instruct Kimi to go ahead of Seb tho.

Wonder what kind of sensor was out of whack???
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Thanks! Not a lot of information but probably as much explanation as we are going to get from Ferrari.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Rockie »

Mort Canard wrote:
Thanks! Not a lot of information but probably as much explanation as we are going to get from Ferrari.
Because he does not cry to the press about every little problem that affects his race.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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What is the general feeling here on Vettel's level of performance this season? For all the mistakes made, I still only think it was a bad season by his standards, and that compared to the vast majority of the grid he still performed better, and still has generally metronomic and strong pace. The spotlight is on him because of the battle at the front of the grid, but a bad season for Vettel is a good one for most other drivers on the grid.


Thoughts?

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:What is the general feeling here on Vettel's level of performance this season? For all the mistakes made, I still only think it was a bad season by his standards, and that compared to the vast majority of the grid he still performed better, and still has generally metronomic and strong pace. The spotlight is on him because of the battle at the front of the grid, but a bad season for Vettel is a good one for most other drivers on the grid.


Thoughts?
Well, he is the guy in the fastest car (or joint fastest, let's not get down to that now), it is probably "easy" to say that he has metronomic and strong pace. But he has managed only 5 wins so far, hasn't he? In the end of the day, that's what matters. Vettel just didn't seem to be 100% on, he had some mistakes and combined with the Ferrari blunders (and their development issue), he lost the WDC. It is not that he drove badly per ce, but he did drop the ball in the races he should have cleaned up.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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Didn't make the most of the car he had underneath him when it was on top, and that came back to really bite him when Ferrari went off the boil. Germany was the standout error, though even with that it's not been an absolutely terrible year. 6/10 for me, probably on reflection will end up being one of the worst years of his career purely based on what could have been.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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Invade wrote:What is the general feeling here on Vettel's level of performance this season? For all the mistakes made, I still only think it was a bad season by his standards, and that compared to the vast majority of the grid he still performed better, and still has generally metronomic and strong pace. The spotlight is on him because of the battle at the front of the grid, but a bad season for Vettel is a good one for most other drivers on the grid.


Thoughts?
In the first half of the year I felt he was driving quickly but erratically, but lately I have the feeling he's not even driving quickly. Kimi has been beating him with far more frequency than I would expect considering the usual gap between the two.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I would probably concur that this has been Vettel's worst year. 2014 was a year where he probably subconsciously backed off a bit, although I still think he was trying his best on a conscious level. 2018 has been the year that has done the most damage to his standing amongst the greats sinply because the title was such a huge possibility and he let it slip.

It would be extremely premature to write him off though. There's a lot of talk about whether Hamilton can exceed Schumacher's 7 world titles. But Vettel could well beat it himself if Ferrari continue on their upwards trajectory.

Vettel will forever be remembered as one of the most successful drivers in history. The next couple of seasons though will determine whether he gets remembered as an all time great which sounds mad for a man who is four times a world champion.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:What is the general feeling here on Vettel's level of performance this season? For all the mistakes made, I still only think it was a bad season by his standards, and that compared to the vast majority of the grid he still performed better, and still has generally metronomic and strong pace. The spotlight is on him because of the battle at the front of the grid, but a bad season for Vettel is a good one for most other drivers on the grid.


Thoughts?
I wouldn't disagree most drivers wouldn't be able to match his general speed.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Invade wrote:What is the general feeling here on Vettel's level of performance this season? For all the mistakes made, I still only think it was a bad season by his standards, and that compared to the vast majority of the grid he still performed better, and still has generally metronomic and strong pace. The spotlight is on him because of the battle at the front of the grid, but a bad season for Vettel is a good one for most other drivers on the grid.


Thoughts?
Well, he is the guy in the fastest car (or joint fastest, let's not get down to that now), it is probably "easy" to say that he has metronomic and strong pace. But he has managed only 5 wins so far, hasn't he? In the end of the day, that's what matters. Vettel just didn't seem to be 100% on, he had some mistakes and combined with the Ferrari blunders (and their development issue), he lost the WDC. It is not that he drove badly per ce, but he did drop the ball in the races he should have cleaned up.
Yes as a general overview only 5 wins in a car as good as what the Ferrari is a poor return for a driver of Vettel's quality.
Last edited by pokerman on Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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Flash2k11 wrote:Didn't make the most of the car he had underneath him when it was on top, and that came back to really bite him when Ferrari went off the boil. Germany was the standout error, though even with that it's not been an absolutely terrible year. 6/10 for me, probably on reflection will end up being one of the worst years of his career purely based on what could have been.
Yeah I see Germany much the same as Singapore 2017, races were Vettel should have taken a strong lead in the WDC but the opposite happened, instead of applying pressure he brought pressure both on to himself and his team.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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Vettel and Hamilton exchange helmets...

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Invade »

Thought you chaps might be interested in the post-race radio from Vettel. Apologies for the cringeworthy youtube thumbnail - I didn't make the video. ;)


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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by pokerman »

:thumbup:
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

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After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Zoue »

KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Yes I'd agree that Vettel is an exceptionally quick driver, if not always mistake-free. I do think he can struggle a bit if the car is not to his liking, however. Not to the same extent as e.g. Kimi, but still.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by F1 Racer »

KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
It could also be that Giovinazzi is just exceptionally slow and is making Kimi look good as a result.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by kleefton »

KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Yeah Vettel is not a bum. This idea that Leclerc is just going to mop the floor with him in their first year as teammates never held any water.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by KingVoid »

There are a lot of other examples in 2017 as well.

Vettel won in Australia while Raikkonen finished a lonely fourth and was much slower than even Bottas
Vettel finished only a couple of seconds behind Hamilton in China while Raikkonen got beat by both RBs.
Vettel challenges Bottas for the win in Austria while Raikkonen gets beaten easily by Ricciardo and Hamilton who had a grid penalty.
Vettel took pole in Singapore while Raikkonen was 6 tenths slower.
Vettel took pole in Mexico while Raikkonen was 8 tenths slower.

I find it hard to believe that Vettel didn’t extract almost everything (speedwise) out of the SF70. You would have to think that Raikkonen is a complete rubbish otherwise.

I’ll look more closely at 2017 when I have more time.

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:There are a lot of other examples in 2017 as well.

Vettel won in Australia while Raikkonen finished a lonely fourth and was much slower than even Bottas
Vettel finished only a couple of seconds behind Hamilton in China while Raikkonen got beat by both RBs.
Vettel challenges Bottas for the win in Austria while Raikkonen gets beaten easily by Ricciardo and Hamilton who had a grid penalty.
Vettel took pole in Singapore while Raikkonen was 6 tenths slower.
Vettel took pole in Mexico while Raikkonen was 8 tenths slower.

I find it hard to believe that Vettel didn’t extract almost everything (speedwise) out of the SF70. You would have to think that Raikkonen is a complete rubbish otherwise.

I’ll look more closely at 2017 when I have more time.
I really feel like Vettel was driving pretty well in 2017. He made the big mistake in Singapore, sure, and a few other little ones throughout the season, but unlike 2018 I don't think his pace was in any doubt. A slightly faster - and mostly more reliable - Mercedes is what cost him a shot at that title, not so much his own driving.

I think Kimi drove at pretty much the same level between 2015-2018, and the fluctuation was Vettel driving poorly in half of those years.
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by bonecrasher »

KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Let’s not go overboard now the Alfa Romeo has got the best PU on the grid so it’s not surprising it’s finished in the points every race so far. Leclerc was doing the same at the backend of last year. And who is Kimi competing against? Perez in a pink box ? Sainz who is yet to finish a race? The very combustible Renaults? Rookies Albion and Norris? Grosjean who frankly should go ahead and take up being a chef? Kimi really isn’t doing something he isn’t supposed to!

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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by gregs51 »

kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Yeah Vettel is not a bum. This idea that Leclerc is just going to mop the floor with him in their first year as teammates never held any water.
I think it does hold water, and I think this season will spell the end of Vettel's time at Ferrari, perhaps his F1 career. 3 races in, a team order in each race to his benefit, his team mate with the only reliability issue so far, and he sits just a point ahead in the standings. But the big problem for Vettel is that Charles has been anointed saviour by the Tifosi (and he is also very very good). As a result of the errors over the past 3 years Vettel's reputation is not in good shape with the Italian press, and this will be what does for him in the end. Every flash of brilliance from Leclerc, and every team order against makes him sparkle that little bit more. Eventually it reaches a tipping point and the team bows to fan pressure.

We've seen this movie before down the years with Senna and Prost and most notably when Hamilton joined Alonso at McLaren in 2007. The established, and obviously still quick and talented multiple world champion gets usurped by the fast, fresh faced and loveable rookie. Prost and Alonso were moved on, and so will Vettel.

Zoue
Posts: 25158
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Zoue »

gregs51 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Yeah Vettel is not a bum. This idea that Leclerc is just going to mop the floor with him in their first year as teammates never held any water.
I think it does hold water, and I think this season will spell the end of Vettel's time at Ferrari, perhaps his F1 career. 3 races in, a team order in each race to his benefit, his team mate with the only reliability issue so far, and he sits just a point ahead in the standings. But the big problem for Vettel is that Charles has been anointed saviour by the Tifosi (and he is also very very good). As a result of the errors over the past 3 years Vettel's reputation is not in good shape with the Italian press, and this will be what does for him in the end. Every flash of brilliance from Leclerc, and every team order against makes him sparkle that little bit more. Eventually it reaches a tipping point and the team bows to fan pressure.

We've seen this movie before down the years with Senna and Prost and most notably when Hamilton joined Alonso at McLaren in 2007. The established, and obviously still quick and talented multiple world champion gets usurped by the fast, fresh faced and loveable rookie. Prost and Alonso were moved on, and so will Vettel.
I don't think Prost was "moved on:" he was the one who decided to leave McLaren for Ferrari. And Alonso was quite a special case, really, with things so acrimonious between him and the team after Hungary and Spygate that there was little choice. I don't see any parallels with the current Ferrari situation.

Leclerc may well turn out to be faster than Vettel. If he is, then he might be one of the quickest ever, which is quite something to look forward to. But given that Ricciardo's career didn't end when he was beaten by Max, and Kimi's didn't when he was beaten by first Alonso and then Vettel, I don't see how Vettel, with a more impressive pedigree than either of those two, would see an end to his career if Leclerc managed to beat him. There may be an element of wishful thinking here...

Option or Prime
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Interesting Zoue, do you not get the impression that Vettel has had enough? He seems very down, quiet and a bit confused in interviews. It may be the moustache but he looks older to me and I don't see any zip or enthusiasm in him at the moment. A lot of pride but not much enthusiasm.

Zoue
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Zoue »

Option or Prime wrote:Interesting Zoue, do you not get the impression that Vettel has had enough? He seems very down, quiet and a bit confused in interviews. It may be the moustache but he looks older to me and I don't see any zip or enthusiasm in him at the moment. A lot of pride but not much enthusiasm.
I see him under pressure, yeah. It doesn't look like he's got a lot of self confidence at the moment but memories are short in F1 and it just needs a couple of good races and it'll be a distant memory.

Course the pressure at Ferrari in particular is enormous. If he doesn't get on top of Leclerc soon then it will only get worse. I think he was better than Leclerc last weekend but losing the place at the start and having to have team orders to get past would have cancelled out any of the satisfaction and self esteem he had built up at the time! Leclerc beat him thoroughly the previous weekend and it's not likely Ferrari will continue giving him the benefit of the doubt indefinitely.

Rockie
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Rockie »

I never get this about critics of Vettel, I wonder whether folks even think of the absurdity behind their line of reasoning.

Folks who don't rate Vettel, but then go on to praise whoever beats him. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to arrive at such position?

In '15 vettel beat Kimi by the same if not more margin that Alonso beat same driver by, but somehow

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Johnson
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by Johnson »

Zoue wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Yeah Vettel is not a bum. This idea that Leclerc is just going to mop the floor with him in their first year as teammates never held any water.
I think it does hold water, and I think this season will spell the end of Vettel's time at Ferrari, perhaps his F1 career. 3 races in, a team order in each race to his benefit, his team mate with the only reliability issue so far, and he sits just a point ahead in the standings. But the big problem for Vettel is that Charles has been anointed saviour by the Tifosi (and he is also very very good). As a result of the errors over the past 3 years Vettel's reputation is not in good shape with the Italian press, and this will be what does for him in the end. Every flash of brilliance from Leclerc, and every team order against makes him sparkle that little bit more. Eventually it reaches a tipping point and the team bows to fan pressure.

We've seen this movie before down the years with Senna and Prost and most notably when Hamilton joined Alonso at McLaren in 2007. The established, and obviously still quick and talented multiple world champion gets usurped by the fast, fresh faced and loveable rookie. Prost and Alonso were moved on, and so will Vettel.
I don't think Prost was "moved on:" he was the one who decided to leave McLaren for Ferrari. And Alonso was quite a special case, really, with things so acrimonious between him and the team after Hungary and Spygate that there was little choice. I don't see any parallels with the current Ferrari situation.

Leclerc may well turn out to be faster than Vettel. If he is, then he might be one of the quickest ever, which is quite something to look forward to. But given that Ricciardo's career didn't end when he was beaten by Max, and Kimi's didn't when he was beaten by first Alonso and then Vettel, I don't see how Vettel, with a more impressive pedigree than either of those two, would see an end to his career if Leclerc managed to beat him. There may be an element of wishful thinking here...
I think the best parrallel is Raikkonen in 2007. Ferrari expected to sign a driver to replace Schumacher and be near his level, i.e. consistently 0.3-0.4 up on there number 2 driver Massa. But they got a driver who was essentially very similar to Massa pace wise.

The problem was, Raikkonen was on 8x Massa's salary. So what did Ferrari do, begin to try to move Raikkonen out of the car as early as pre season 2008.

I see a similar problem for Ferrari now, they are likely paying Vettel 10x what they are paying Leclerc. Yes, if Leclerc keeps this up he will earn a new deal but that will likely still be less than half of what Vettel is on now. Leclerc is also only 21 and only going to get better and overall is probably more marketable than Vettel too in the coming years.

If Vettel is moved out of Ferrari and definitely slower than Leclerc, who would take him? Who could afford him? Vettel looks really strained, I could easily see this being his last contract.

gregs51
Posts: 107
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Re: Official Sebastian Vettel thread

Post by gregs51 »

Zoue wrote:
gregs51 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:After three races, Kimi Raikkonen is the only driver outside the top five to have scored points in every race.

I must point out, when Vettel beat Raikkonen at Ferrari (sometimes by huge margins), the excuse was always that Kimi is a fraud or past it. Now that Kimi is in the midfield, he looks just as good or better than every other midfield driver.

A perfect example to illustrate my point is Spa 2017. Vettel was so much faster than Raikkonen that race, by almost a second per lap. Vettel was keeping up with Hamilton while Kimi couldn’t at all keep up with Bottas. The argument was that Ferrari was actually the best car (which no one predicted before the weekend), and that Kimi is just a bad driver.

Well I think that Vettel got every ounce of performance out of the 2017 Ferrari in terms of pure speed, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
Yeah Vettel is not a bum. This idea that Leclerc is just going to mop the floor with him in their first year as teammates never held any water.
I think it does hold water, and I think this season will spell the end of Vettel's time at Ferrari, perhaps his F1 career. 3 races in, a team order in each race to his benefit, his team mate with the only reliability issue so far, and he sits just a point ahead in the standings. But the big problem for Vettel is that Charles has been anointed saviour by the Tifosi (and he is also very very good). As a result of the errors over the past 3 years Vettel's reputation is not in good shape with the Italian press, and this will be what does for him in the end. Every flash of brilliance from Leclerc, and every team order against makes him sparkle that little bit more. Eventually it reaches a tipping point and the team bows to fan pressure.

We've seen this movie before down the years with Senna and Prost and most notably when Hamilton joined Alonso at McLaren in 2007. The established, and obviously still quick and talented multiple world champion gets usurped by the fast, fresh faced and loveable rookie. Prost and Alonso were moved on, and so will Vettel.
I don't think Prost was "moved on:" he was the one who decided to leave McLaren for Ferrari. And Alonso was quite a special case, really, with things so acrimonious between him and the team after Hungary and Spygate that there was little choice. I don't see any parallels with the current Ferrari situation.

Leclerc may well turn out to be faster than Vettel. If he is, then he might be one of the quickest ever, which is quite something to look forward to. But given that Ricciardo's career didn't end when he was beaten by Max, and Kimi's didn't when he was beaten by first Alonso and then Vettel, I don't see how Vettel, with a more impressive pedigree than either of those two, would see an end to his career if Leclerc managed to beat him. There may be an element of wishful thinking here...
I do think the parallels will gradually emerge as time goes on. We're only 3 races in and it's already looking like things are getting tense behind the scenes.

Regarding your second point, it's precisely because of Vettel's impressive pedigree that his ego will take it that much harder, and I can't see that he'd want to stay for another year if soundly beaten. 1 year might be considered a blip, but two years straight getting beaten you start to look bad and so does the legacy. Not worth the risk.

I'm also pondering the team orders as well; If Leclerc continues to perform how many team orders do we need to see before it actually becomes embarrassing for Vettel? I'm going to revise my prediction - I genuinely don't think Vettel will last the season.

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