The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

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phyz
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by phyz »

TheThirdTenor wrote:I don't see why Vettel can't give Webber a win if the opportunity arises.

Pigs will break the speed of sound as they fly to the moon and back before that happens...

Fiki
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Fiki »

TheThirdTenor wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Balibari wrote:For Vettel to feel comfortable laughing at the very idea of being sanctioned suggests a deeply screwed up chain of authority. These last two comments put me off him more than the actual overtake did.

Yeah, it leaves Horner in an awkward undefined position.


No it doesn't, it means he's laughing at a weird skewed idea that the team would penalise a driver and potentially cost themselves world championship points... They might do something internally, but what exactly could they do? As he said, why do you all suggest something that doesn't A) affect the possible constructors points, B) seem absurd...?


Well Ferrari sacked Prost when he got out of line.....

I don't see why Vettel can't give Webber a win if the opportunity arises.

Ferrari hired a driver who didn't lie. When he failed to lie, he got sacked. Funny team...

I sincerely doubt Vettel will "find an opportunity" before the title is well and truly his.
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Siao7
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Balibari wrote:For Vettel to feel comfortable laughing at the very idea of being sanctioned suggests a deeply screwed up chain of authority. These last two comments put me off him more than the actual overtake did.

Yeah, it leaves Horner in an awkward undefined position.


No it doesn't, it means he's laughing at a weird skewed idea that the team would penalise a driver and potentially cost themselves world championship points... They might do something internally, but what exactly could they do? As he said, why do you all suggest something that doesn't A) affect the possible constructors points, B) seem absurd...?


Well Ferrari sacked Prost when he got out of line.....

I don't see why Vettel can't give Webber a win if the opportunity arises.

Ferrari hired a driver who didn't lie. When he failed to lie, he got sacked. Funny team...

I sincerely doubt Vettel will "find an opportunity" before the title is well and truly his.


It had nothing to do with lying. He criticised the car publicly. It's not that they asked him to lie and he didn't Fiki

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Race2win »

Thethirdtenor: Ferrari sacked Prost because he publicly criticised Ferrari for producing a bad car. Vettels issue is totally different.
[b LOADING KILL LIST.......[/b]
--------------------

Zoue
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Zoue »

Prema wrote:
Zoue wrote:Prema, I don't understand you and your propensity to use hyperbole at every opportunity.

"But Vettel didn't really rape some small kids, so personally, I am not moved this or that way by what he does or says". Really? Is that the benchmark these days? Everything is fine as long as you draw the line at pedophilia? What on earth?


I am sure that you know perfectly well that it is not the benchmark these days. When was it? But I admit that it is my fault to supply you with the trampoline to jump from. So I take back that hyperbole. I can use "crime" instead, perhaps. Though that may still be open to interpretations, something I wanted to avoid. Hence I used the drastic example.

As to the rest of your last paragraph, I'm afraid I'm struggling to make head or tail of the sentence, as it's a little convoluted. I'm guessing - and apologies if I'm wrong - but it looks like you're saying that whatever Vettel does to Red Bull is OK because it's a greedy, ruthless company anyway. Is that right?


Well, that is why it seams like you overlooked my previous point, getting focused just on that choice of the hyperbole. That is, I do not rally care if it is OK or it is not OK, so long so it is not.... how shall I say it... crime. Who is to judge? What is OK to you is not to someone else and vice versa. And that RBR is all that, it does make indeed a difference. Remember the case of Alguersuari? He trusted them and to their promise to have the seat in TR. Where is he now? The companies like RBR does what they find to be in their best interest even if that may be against the best interest of an individual (or many) employee. And if one of their employee does just the same, doing what he thinks to be in his best interest even if not necessarily in the interest of that company, then fine with me. Why would there be double standards? Why are you suddenly such "company" supporter?

My point, what Seb does or says is neither wrong nor right. It is us who project "wrong" and "right" into it. It is us who make some moral issues out of it.

If so I simply disagree with your worldview. However soulless you may think a company is, it's still staffed by more or less ordinary human beings and unless they get their employees from HenchmenRus I'm sure they don't all merit being treated with disrespect. I don't see how you can justify being rude and disrespectful in public and think that's perfectly fine. Do manners mean nothing any more?


You cannot see how I can justify being rude because I am not doing it. Again, it is how you chose to place your designations on other people's words and actions, in this case mine. I am simply not judging Seb neither this way nor that way. If you find Seb as rude and disrespectful and without manners, and whatever else you wish, then it is your projection. So don't ask me to either justify or un-justify it.

And what is that about "ordinary human beings" in RBR? If anything, then it the fact that Seb won to each of them extra £10 000 last year. And all what Seb is so totally focused on this time is just exactly that same goal - to win WDC (and thus put another £ 10 000 into their pockets). So I do not really understand, what is your point with these "ordinary human beings", I am not sure what exactly are you trying to project now here?

Wow. You appear to have missed the point on so many levels...

Your use of flowery language notwithstanding, whether Seb has committed a "crime" or not is irrelevant. The issue I raised was about manners, and since when was that a crime?

Alguesari is wholly irrelevant to this conversation, unless you believe that two wrongs make a right. I was discussing Vettel's attitude to his team, among other things; what they may or may not have done to others previously is neither here nor there.

You accuse me of suddenly becoming a company supporter. Again, you have totally missed the point, which was about Vettel's attitude, not the company's. There's no support of the company involved, other than indirectly as the subject of Vettel's comments. In any case, you don't know me anywhere near enough to make that assumption about me.

You can deny justifying Seb's comments all you want, but the fact that you pretty much gave him carte blanche to say whatever he wants against Red Bull says otherwise.

You talk about others judging, yet judge yourself, which is nothing if not hypocritical

ReservoirDog
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by ReservoirDog »

Balibari wrote:"There was more than one occasion in the past when he (Webber) could have helped the team and he didn't,"
We all know that's true.

"I would have thought about it (maintaining position) and would probably have done the same thing because Mark doesn't deserve that."
Wow.

The world champion maintained he had not understood the team order
That's just the most obvious lie, isn't it?

The German... laughed when asked if he had been punished in any way
For Vettel to feel comfortable laughing at the very idea of being sanctioned suggests a deeply screwed up chain of authority. These last two comments put me off him more than the actual overtake did.


I am intrigued about what's transpired in the last 2 and a half week. After Malaysia Vettel was apologetic and now the team's come out and said there won't be any TO and Vettel has said that he'd disobey the team and that if Malaysia happened all over again, he'd overtake Webber still. Did Vettel just show Horner and Co. who the boss is? I am really surprised at what Vettel's been saying in the last couple of days.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by mariusdk »

This could still get more interesting and complicated for Redbull.

Looks like RB management will want the two drivers to sort this out on the track. Although I am sure they would prefer it if the drivers fired fewer shots at each other during media interviews.

What might be interesting is what will happen when we have two Redbulls parked in the gravel because both drivers was trying to prove a point.

Will RB then backtrack and use team orders again,when SV has admitted that he may not respect them?Or will they get rid of MW?

SV may not want to hear it,but the constructors title is still very important to RB,even more so to sponsors like Infiniti etc.In Malaysia it could have ended in tears,constructors championships in the past has been decided on much less points compared to what could have been lost on Sunday.

RB definately has got one of the most talented drivers of his generation,no doubt.BUT he definately needs to realize that some of the success is due to the hard work the team has put into the car.Designing,building,testing and spending long hours getting everything ready.By saying that he will in all likelyhood not respect orders that are in the best interest of the team,he basicly indicates that his personal achievement is more important compared to the team's achievements.

Afterall,RB has done a lot to support his career,so asking him to support the team should not be such a difficult decision.

JerCotter7
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by JerCotter7 »

mariusdk wrote:This could still get more interesting and complicated for Redbull.

Looks like RB management will want the two drivers to sort this out on the track. Although I am sure they would prefer it if the drivers fired fewer shots at each other during media interviews.

What might be interesting is what will happen when we have two Redbulls parked in the gravel because both drivers was trying to prove a point.

Will RB then backtrack and use team orders again,when SV has admitted that he may not respect them?Or will they get rid of MW?

SV may not want to hear it,but the constructors title is still very important to RB,even more so to sponsors like Infiniti etc.In Malaysia it could have ended in tears,constructors championships in the past has been decided on much less points compared to what could have been lost on Sunday.

RB definately has got one of the most talented drivers of his generation,no doubt.BUT he definately needs to realize that some of the success is due to the hard work the team has put into the car.Designing,building,testing and spending long hours getting everything ready.By saying that he will in all likelyhood not respect orders that are in the best interest of the team,he basicly indicates that his personal achievement is more important compared to the team's achievements.

Afterall,RB has done a lot to support his career,so asking him to support the team should not be such a difficult decision.


I would have thought Vettel winning the WDC would be more important to Infiniti. He did sign for the after all.

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TheThirdTenor
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by TheThirdTenor »

phyz wrote:
TheThirdTenor wrote:I don't see why Vettel can't give Webber a win if the opportunity arises.

Pigs will break the speed of sound as they fly to the moon and back before that happens...


Yep, but if Vettel wants a realistic situation of how to make up for what he did or how to take a "punishment" then that is it. Like you said though, he won't do it.

Zoue
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Zoue »

JerCotter7 wrote:
mariusdk wrote:This could still get more interesting and complicated for Redbull.

Looks like RB management will want the two drivers to sort this out on the track. Although I am sure they would prefer it if the drivers fired fewer shots at each other during media interviews.

What might be interesting is what will happen when we have two Redbulls parked in the gravel because both drivers was trying to prove a point.

Will RB then backtrack and use team orders again,when SV has admitted that he may not respect them?Or will they get rid of MW?

SV may not want to hear it,but the constructors title is still very important to RB,even more so to sponsors like Infiniti etc.In Malaysia it could have ended in tears,constructors championships in the past has been decided on much less points compared to what could have been lost on Sunday.

RB definately has got one of the most talented drivers of his generation,no doubt.BUT he definately needs to realize that some of the success is due to the hard work the team has put into the car.Designing,building,testing and spending long hours getting everything ready.By saying that he will in all likelyhood not respect orders that are in the best interest of the team,he basicly indicates that his personal achievement is more important compared to the team's achievements.

Afterall,RB has done a lot to support his career,so asking him to support the team should not be such a difficult decision.


I would have thought Vettel winning the WDC would be more important to Infiniti. He did sign for the after all.

What do you mean? Infiniti is a Red Bull title sponsor, so the WCC will definitely be important to them, too

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f1madman
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by f1madman »

Well my estimation of Vettel has further plummeted.... He cheated his team mate, betrayed his team, and lies to everyone.

Bloody hell I need to change the pic in my sig now >_<
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TheThirdTenor
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by TheThirdTenor »

Race2win wrote:Thethirdtenor: Ferrari sacked Prost because he publicly criticised Ferrari for producing a bad car. Vettels issue is totally different.


I know that. I only used this to illustrate that a top was willing to take action against their driver because they were not happy with their behavior.

Formula1Fan.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Formula1Fan. »

sgt.hartman wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Balibari wrote:For Vettel to feel comfortable laughing at the very idea of being sanctioned suggests a deeply screwed up chain of authority. These last two comments put me off him more than the actual overtake did.

Yeah, it leaves Horner in an awkward undefined position.


No it doesn't, it means he's laughing at a weird skewed idea that the team would penalise a driver and potentially cost themselves world championship points... They might do something internally, but what exactly could they do? As he said, why do you all suggest something that doesn't A) affect the possible constructors points, B) seem absurd...?

The portion I replied to probably didn't indicate it, but as well as laughing at the thought of punishment I was also alluding to the notion of Vettel saying he'd do it all over again. This whole episode undermines Horner's authority massively and confirms he has no control over his drivers, Vettel or Webber.
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mariusdk
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by mariusdk »

JerCotter7 wrote:
mariusdk wrote:This could still get more interesting and complicated for Redbull.

Looks like RB management will want the two drivers to sort this out on the track. Although I am sure they would prefer it if the drivers fired fewer shots at each other during media interviews.

What might be interesting is what will happen when we have two Redbulls parked in the gravel because both drivers was trying to prove a point.

Will RB then backtrack and use team orders again,when SV has admitted that he may not respect them?Or will they get rid of MW?

SV may not want to hear it,but the constructors title is still very important to RB,even more so to sponsors like Infiniti etc.In Malaysia it could have ended in tears,constructors championships in the past has been decided on much less points compared to what could have been lost on Sunday.

RB definately has got one of the most talented drivers of his generation,no doubt.BUT he definately needs to realize that some of the success is due to the hard work the team has put into the car.Designing,building,testing and spending long hours getting everything ready.By saying that he will in all likelyhood not respect orders that are in the best interest of the team,he basicly indicates that his personal achievement is more important compared to the team's achievements.

Afterall,RB has done a lot to support his career,so asking him to support the team should not be such a difficult decision.


I would have thought Vettel winning the WDC would be more important to Infiniti. He did sign for the after all.



Maybe I did not make my point clear.

I doubt Redbull or any of their sponsors will be happy if the constructors championship is the victim of two drivers having a go at each other in the last race because of bad harmony and now you end up without either of the titles and two cars in the gravel trap....

Do not know if you remember te 1999 season,when Schumacher can back from his injury and tried everything he could to assist Irvine in becoming the WDC,even if it was his drem to do it.

In the last two races,he slowed down the Mclarens to allow Irvine to build a lead in Malaysia and he piled on the presure Japan to see if he could either pass Hakkinen or force him into a mistake.

Although he could not manage it,Ferrari still won the constructors,by only 2 points.

Constructots championship is still very important,while you're driver can advertise anti flaking shampoo and shaving equipment you're equipment can sell engines and even make people believe that the Mercedes C class they drive have something in commen with the F1 car circulating the track.

It is one hell of a marketing tool when the team comes first,but in all likelyhood when the crew tell their driver to hold station,they are probably thinking about the difference of about $10.2m between first and second place that comes from winning the constructors championship.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Formula1Fan. »

ReservoirDog wrote:I am intrigued about what's transpired in the last 2 and a half week. After Malaysia Vettel was apologetic and now the team's come out and said there won't be any TO and Vettel has said that he'd disobey the team and that if Malaysia happened all over again, he'd overtake Webber still. Did Vettel just show Horner and Co. who the boss is? I am really surprised at what Vettel's been saying in the last couple of days.

I'm thinking he went home to Germany with Helmut where everyone told him that he did the right thing and should not apologise for it.
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purchville
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by purchville »

SV on pit stop strategy in Malaysia...

Q. Going back to earlier in the race, was the decision to change to slicks at the first stop your call, or was it made by the team?

SV: It was my call. I came on the radio at the beginning of the lap saying that it looks pretty dry. At the end of the lap I felt it was the point of crossover and I thought I would come in and take the risk, because I thought it was dry enough.


So it was Seb's own fault that he had fallen behind Webber after all..
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stranger
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by stranger »

purchville wrote:SV on pit stop strategy in Malaysia...

Q. Going back to earlier in the race, was the decision to change to slicks at the first stop your call, or was it made by the team?

SV: It was my call. I came on the radio at the beginning of the lap saying that it looks pretty dry. At the end of the lap I felt it was the point of crossover and I thought I would come in and take the risk, because I thought it was dry enough.


So it was Seb's own fault that he had fallen behind Webber after all..


Of course it was his own fault. He started from pole and due to his pace and tyre choices, he was overtaken by Webber.

Webber was then after final pits was advised to turn engine down and he will hold out for the win, Sebastian took advnatage of this and stole the win. He said after the race it was a mistake and he apologises, even though we all know its actually no mistake.

He has now come out and said he is not sorry and would do it again in future.

What more can be said?

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ob1kenobi.23
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by ob1kenobi.23 »

As I have been saying, this was nothing more than payback.
Seb has too many times seen Mark flout the the teams wishes & remain unpunished, unrepentant & even brag about how he felt about team orders. He was even lauded on forums, in the media & in the F1 fans domain for being a true racer & true grit Aussie.

This is what Martin Brundle had to say in his column

“We know there is a lot of tension and it has flared up - whether it was Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2011, Brazil last year - when Mark was pretty brutal against Sebastian when he was trying to win the World Championship - and so you know there is a lot of tension,” he said.

Taken from this.

Brundle added that he didn't think Vettel would be concerned about the fact that his comments could affect his popularity, with his focus being firmly on winning on track.

“We know there is a lot of tension and it has flared up - whether it was Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2011, Brazil last year - when Mark was pretty brutal against Sebastian when he was trying to win the World Championship - and so you know there is a lot of tension,” he said. "You have two very competitive drivers who do not want to yield - Mark moving towards the end of his career and wants some success, Vettel has three Championships in the bag and wants to blitz every record there is and his job is to win, not to be popular. He might be losing a bit of popularity, but I don't think he cares too much.

“All the great champions were selfish winning machines and they really didn't care too much about their reputations in that respect. I think there is a sporting line which you don't cross - it is honour amongst thieves in many respects, but then I didn't win three World Championships and Sebastian Vettel already has at 25-years-old. So he is just saying if he sees a gap, I will go for it - whether that comes back to haunt him we will find out."

It is now out in the open & everybody knows where everybody stands so let the 2 of them have at it & let the chips fall where they may.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by aryaputhra »

Vettel is just a sore loser. Meaning to say he doesn't like losing. And clearly he doesn't respect nor think much highly of Mark Webber.

As long as Vettel gets the upper hand in the results, he can keep justifying his actions and the team will gloss over it and forgive him.

Mark Webber needs to understand that it is every man for himself. It's about time he stops stooping to his teammate regardless of circumstances - be it early in the season or later in the season.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Prema »

Zoue wrote:Wow. You appear to have missed the point on so many levels...

Your use of flowery language notwithstanding, whether Seb has committed a "crime" or not is irrelevant. The issue I raised was about manners, and since when was that a crime?


The issue, as I see it, is about judging another person in terms of wrong and right. It is more than just "manners" (even then). Most of the posts on this thread are devoted to just that - that Vettel is a kind of a bad apple. He lies, he cheats, he sticks his fingers up to the company (talking about flowery language), he is a hypocrite, he betrays his teammate, he lets down all the workers, and so on (not necessarily all from you, but the part of it certainly). Like as if his action/words would be some sort of a crime that we have to oppose to strongly.

Alguesari is wholly irrelevant to this conversation, unless you believe that two wrongs make a right. I was discussing Vettel's attitude to his team, among other things; what they may or may not have done to others previously is neither here nor there.


It is not irrelevant as that is just the part of the wider picture. You are bringing in to the picture the working people in RBR as if a kind of the victims of Seb's actions due to the fact that they are also company (a personal aspect of it). Thus Seb allegedly wronged them all. But their involvement/connection to it is just as in such cases like in the case of Alguersuari - they had nothing to do with it!

That two wrongs don't make a right, might not always be the case. If the company like RBR clearly demonstrates that they will do whatever they want with their drivers (Alguersuari) as they find it fitting to their own interests, then let us not demand a 100% loyalty from the other partie (Seb being one of). RBR can get rid of Seb (and they would) as soon as they conclude that such a thing would be in their interest (for whatever reasons). RBR does not practice loyalty. They may be now "loyal" to Seb, but just out of own interests. Seb's carrier in RBR is his, and he may play with it as he wants. No moral issues attached to it. That would be the projection of our minds, depending on likening Seb or not (which in itself is but the activity of our mind).

You accuse me of suddenly becoming a company supporter. Again, you have totally missed the point, which was about Vettel's attitude, not the company's. There's no support of the company involved, other than indirectly as the subject of Vettel's comments. In any case, you don't know me anywhere near enough to make that assumption about me.


It was not an accusation as per se, but a suggestion that you might come across as being one sided. Your way of arguing does not seam to support the possibility of a so-called bad attitude from an employee towards his company. It is almost like that we are the devotees of our employers. It is almost like as if we have been programmed with our birth to obey our employers, and if we sometimes don't... bad attitude... rebellion... unthankfulness. An immoral thing to do (or something in that tune).

You can deny justifying Seb's comments all you want, but the fact that you pretty much gave him carte blanche to say whatever he wants against Red Bull says otherwise.


I know, it is difficult for me to get out. If I don't condemn, then I must be justifying. Neutrality is never really accepted, is it? That is the natural consequence of judging - no gray area allowed. Right or wrong. Say he is bad/wrong as I do, or otherwise you give him a carte blanche (to be bad/wrong).

Yes, he can say whatever he wants against Red Bull. So can Red Bull. Seb is a grown up person and he got that "carte blanche" in his own right. It is his prerogative. And if some consequence, it's his.
(again, I am not saying that you are a company defender here, but you may come across as such by this kind of being one sided)

You talk about others judging, yet judge yourself, which is nothing if not hypocritical


When I am talking about "judging others", I am referring to the kind of a moral judgment, in terms of viewing that person's actions as "bad" and "good", "wrong" and right".

What I am doing here, is to argue with you. I am not judging you. Maybe I may misunderstand your position from time to time, though.

Prema
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Prema »

aryaputhra wrote:As long as Vettel gets the upper hand in the results, he can keep justifying his actions and the team will gloss over it and forgive him.


Exactly so. It's but a power struggle. The so-called forgiveness (or lack of it) is but a reflection of the current state of interest - it's business.

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Covalent
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Covalent »

ob1kenobi.23 wrote:As I have been saying, this was nothing more than payback.
Seb has too many times seen Mark flout the the teams wishes & remain unpunished, unrepentant & even brag about how he felt about team orders. He was even lauded on forums, in the media & in the F1 fans domain for being a true racer & true grit Aussie.

This is what Martin Brundle had to say in his column

“We know there is a lot of tension and it has flared up - whether it was Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2011, Brazil last year - when Mark was pretty brutal against Sebastian when he was trying to win the World Championship - and so you know there is a lot of tension,” he said.

Taken from this.

Brundle added that he didn't think Vettel would be concerned about the fact that his comments could affect his popularity, with his focus being firmly on winning on track.

“We know there is a lot of tension and it has flared up - whether it was Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2011, Brazil last year - when Mark was pretty brutal against Sebastian when he was trying to win the World Championship - and so you know there is a lot of tension,” he said. "You have two very competitive drivers who do not want to yield - Mark moving towards the end of his career and wants some success, Vettel has three Championships in the bag and wants to blitz every record there is and his job is to win, not to be popular. He might be losing a bit of popularity, but I don't think he cares too much.

“All the great champions were selfish winning machines and they really didn't care too much about their reputations in that respect. I think there is a sporting line which you don't cross - it is honour amongst thieves in many respects, but then I didn't win three World Championships and Sebastian Vettel already has at 25-years-old. So he is just saying if he sees a gap, I will go for it - whether that comes back to haunt him we will find out."

It is now out in the open & everybody knows where everybody stands so let the 2 of them have at it & let the chips fall where they may.

Good to hear something other than the usual bash.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Zoue »

Prema,

If you look back at my original comments, the issue I raised was why he was stirring things up in public. I was saying that there was no need IMO to have a public dig at Mark ("He didn't deserve..") and that his apology to the company was hollow when he said he would do the same thing again.

In his private life, I agree that he should be allowed to do and say things without fear of being judged by anybody else. However, when he makes a statement in his professional capacity then whatever he says goes into the public domain and he should expect that his words will be analysed and discussed by others. He's not a rookie at this.

So I disagree that he should not be judged on what he says in this instance. I maintain that there was no obvious cause to have a public dig at Mark in this interview and that his apology to the team seemed less than genuine when he admitted that he would have no qualms doing it again. What is the apology worth, exactly? In that context it is irrelevant what Red Bull may or may not have done to some other driver in previous years.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by mcdo »

sgt.hartman wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Balibari wrote:For Vettel to feel comfortable laughing at the very idea of being sanctioned suggests a deeply screwed up chain of authority. These last two comments put me off him more than the actual overtake did.

Yeah, it leaves Horner in an awkward undefined position.


No it doesn't, it means he's laughing at a weird skewed idea that the team would penalise a driver and potentially cost themselves world championship points... They might do something internally, but what exactly could they do? As he said, why do you all suggest something that doesn't A) affect the possible constructors points, B) seem absurd...?

Q. Do you think Christian Horner's position has been weakened by your actions?

SV: Well you could say so... but as I said, I went to talk to everyone straight after and explain what happened. The intention was not to undermine the decision by the team principal.

Not exactly a flat out "No"!

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/featu ... the-story/

Seb, you may have won 3 titles but this is the first time you've absolutely fascinated me
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chetan_rao
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by chetan_rao »

Horner must be thinking of renting out his (hot) seat to a track-side burger stand to recoup some of the lost earnings in the WCC.

Can't blame him, must be getting hot enough to barbecue. :lol:

Siao7
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Siao7 »

chetan_rao wrote:Horner must be thinking of renting out his (hot) seat to a track-side burger stand to recoup some of the lost earnings in the WCC.

Can't blame him, must be getting hot enough to barbecue. :lol:


Uhh, they still got the same points in WCC.

No lost earnings there

Schuttelberg
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Schuttelberg »

aryaputhra wrote:Vettel is just a sore loser. Meaning to say he doesn't like losing. And clearly he doesn't respect nor think much highly of Mark Webber.

As long as Vettel gets the upper hand in the results, he can keep justifying his actions and the team will gloss over it and forgive him.

Mark Webber needs to understand that it is every man for himself. It's about time he stops stooping to his teammate regardless of circumstances - be it early in the season or later in the season.


The loser, has pasted your favourite driver into orbit the past four seasons. If Vettel is a loser, I'd like to look up a new word in the dictionary for Mark Webber. :smug:
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"But Satisfaction!"

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Formula1Fan. »

mcdo wrote:Not exactly a flat out "No"!

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/featu ... the-story/

Seb, you may have won 3 titles but this is the first time you've absolutely fascinated me

He doesn't give a damn about Horner, he knows he has a more powerful ally higher up the food chain. Horner's offer to move to Ferrari makes a little more sense now.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by chetan_rao »

SchumieRules wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:Horner must be thinking of renting out his (hot) seat to a track-side burger stand to recoup some of the lost earnings in the WCC.

Can't blame him, must be getting hot enough to barbecue. :lol:


Uhh, they still got the same points in WCC.

No lost earnings there


There are still 17 races to go, aren't there? And the RB drivers aren't averse to trading paint or a few parts ;)

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Lojik »

Schuttelberg wrote:
aryaputhra wrote:Vettel is just a sore loser. Meaning to say he doesn't like losing. And clearly he doesn't respect nor think much highly of Mark Webber.

As long as Vettel gets the upper hand in the results, he can keep justifying his actions and the team will gloss over it and forgive him.

Mark Webber needs to understand that it is every man for himself. It's about time he stops stooping to his teammate regardless of circumstances - be it early in the season or later in the season.


The loser, has pasted your favourite driver into orbit the past four seasons. If Vettel is a loser, I'd like to look up a new word in the dictionary for Mark Webber. :smug:


I don't think you actually understand the meaning of "sore loser". I'll quote Rudyard Kipling to maybe help out a little:

If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same


Being a 3X WDC does not preclude Vettel from also being a sore loser, and being labelled as a sore loser doesn't literally mean he is a loser either. I'd imagine most successful competitive sportsmen are shockingly bad losers. How about this quote quote from Vince Lombardi:

Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Siao7 »

chetan_rao wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:Horner must be thinking of renting out his (hot) seat to a track-side burger stand to recoup some of the lost earnings in the WCC.

Can't blame him, must be getting hot enough to barbecue. :lol:


Uhh, they still got the same points in WCC.

No lost earnings there


There are still 17 races to go, aren't there? And the RB drivers aren't averse to trading paint or a few parts ;)


I see. This is the Sepang thread, that's why I said it, they didn't lose any WCC points in Sepang.

Otherwise yeah, I agree

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by chetan_rao »

SchumieRules wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:Horner must be thinking of renting out his (hot) seat to a track-side burger stand to recoup some of the lost earnings in the WCC.

Can't blame him, must be getting hot enough to barbecue. :lol:


Uhh, they still got the same points in WCC.

No lost earnings there


There are still 17 races to go, aren't there? And the RB drivers aren't averse to trading paint or a few parts ;)


I see. This is the Sepang thread, that's why I said it, they didn't lose any WCC points in Sepang.

Otherwise yeah, I agree


Nowhere else to post (and this does relate to the incidents in Sepang), and it was all in jest anyway.

Jokes apart, would be interesting to see how the team handle it going forward. Both RB drivers have a bit of a 'reputation' with wheel-to-wheel racing. Add the 'no love lost' angle, and sparks are bound to fly, figuratively and sometimes literally.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Prema »

Zoue wrote:Prema,

If you look back at my original comments, the issue I raised was why he was stirring things up in public. I was saying that there was no need IMO to have a public dig at Mark ("He didn't deserve..") and that his apology to the company was hollow when he said he would do the same thing again.

In his private life, I agree that he should be allowed to do and say things without fear of being judged by anybody else. However, when he makes a statement in his professional capacity then whatever he says goes into the public domain and he should expect that his words will be analysed and discussed by others. He's not a rookie at this.

So I disagree that he should not be judged on what he says in this instance. I maintain that there was no obvious cause to have a public dig at Mark in this interview and that his apology to the team seemed less than genuine when he admitted that he would have no qualms doing it again. What is the apology worth, exactly? In that context it is irrelevant what Red Bull may or may not have done to some other driver in previous years.


I understand, but it seams to me like different issues cross and overlap in the process. Sometimes it is not easiest for me to follow all up. As far as those apologies of his that may be percieved as not genuine, and then he apparently taking a step in an another direction, there have been some arguments here going on back an forth. So I won't go in. Regardless of that, what I see in Seb is just a human like any of us, with whatever flaws they may be there. He is not exactly the example for me to look uppon in that regard. But so is neither Aonso, Lewis, Webber, Kimi (yes, he too).. To me, they are the racers, not more than that. I am not dissapointed with neither of them when they exhibit a common human nature.

Maybe Seb did mean it then (appology) but then he simply changed his mind later on for some reason... or maybe he was just not being honset enough then and came out now... or he felt the pressure to say it,... maybe something else.. I don't know. It's his problem, I think.

Mark is known too for having his public dig at both RBR and Seb ("He will be protected as always.."). These two just keep punching each other. Both are engaged into the power struggle, in my opinion, just Mark in a less obvious way that can buy him the sympathies of the public (they even call him a "gentleman"), while Seb seams to be more impulsive and explosive in it (thus the immediate "reavard" from the crowd that he gets - stones and sticks).

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Siao7 »

I know, but Mark usually keeps a cool head in the race (not after it as demonstrated in Sepang), so I don't expect him to pull a Senna on Sebastian.

And Sebastian wouldn't want to risk losing points by playing bumper cars with his team mate, since he is ahead in the WDC.


It would do for great drama though!!!!!!

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by scottb18 »

In regards to Silverston 2011 that a few people seem to want draw parallels with. A key factor for me is that after that race Webber got out of the car and said " yes I disobeyed team orders". Malaysia 2013, Vettel gets out the car and says...I didn't hear the call, no wait I heard but didn't understand it, no wait I heard it and I understood but ignored it and I am so sorry, now we hear.. I am not sorry and its all Marks fault for what he did to me in the past. This boy needs to man up.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Schuttelberg »

Why on earth should Vettel move over for Webber.?

Like Vettel said, Webber himself has been moaning on both sides of the fence forever, and Vettel isn't here to win a popularity contest. He's here to win races. Most people who have formed opinions about him, are either fans of Alonso, Hamilton or Webber. Webber's disobeyed orders himself, but most of his fans are sympathy seeking and pityful because that's how they want to cover his failure to beat his younger team mate for what will now be the fifth year.
Hamilton, for god's sake was caught in a lie gate scandal and has a sincere liking for Twitter.
Alonso, has been involved in two of the worst scandals in Formula 1 and really, talking about fair play shouldn't be part of his fans.

So, most of the hate around here, is because Vettel is winning. This is a fact, just like when he wins, Newey is driving the car for him, while when the other two drama queens win, it's their superior driving talent.

Bottom line is, none of these chaps have won horse fairy cakes since Vettel burst on to the F1 scene. :smug:
#1

"You know the score.. Alright that's enough.. You're not going to get any points for that.."

"But Satisfaction!"

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2010,2011,2012.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Formula1Fan. »

Schuttelberg wrote:Bottom line is, none of these chaps have won horse fairy cakes since Vettel burst on to the F1 scene. :smug:

Hamilton won in 2008, Button in 2009. Alonso even managed to push the title race to the last GP in 2010 and 2012 despite being in an inferior car. So yeah, you might want to rethink your Vettel is the reason for success fairytale.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Mr-E »

Schuttelberg wrote:Why on earth should Vettel move over for Webber.?

Like Vettel said, Webber himself has been moaning on both sides of the fence forever, and Vettel isn't here to win a popularity contest. He's here to win races. Most people who have formed opinions about him, are either fans of Alonso, Hamilton or Webber. Webber's disobeyed orders himself, but most of his fans are sympathy seeking and pityful because that's how they want to cover his failure to beat his younger team mate for what will now be the fifth year.
Hamilton, for god's sake was caught in a lie gate scandal and has a sincere liking for Twitter.
Alonso, has been involved in two of the worst scandals in Formula 1 and really, talking about fair play shouldn't be part of his fans.

So, most of the hate around here, is because Vettel is winning. This is a fact, just like when he wins, Newey is driving the car for him, while when the other two drama queens win, it's their superior driving talent.

Bottom line is, none of these chaps have won horse fairy cakes since Vettel burst on to the F1 scene. :smug:


Getting a little upset about pople not liking your fav boy are we? ;)
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by F1yer »

Schuttelberg wrote:Why on earth should Vettel move over for Webber.?

Like Vettel said, Webber himself has been moaning on both sides of the fence forever, and Vettel isn't here to win a popularity contest. He's here to win races. Most people who have formed opinions about him, are either fans of Alonso, Hamilton or Webber. Webber's disobeyed orders himself, but most of his fans are sympathy seeking and pityful because that's how they want to cover his failure to beat his younger team mate for what will now be the fifth year.
Hamilton, for god's sake was caught in a lie gate scandal and has a sincere liking for Twitter.
Alonso, has been involved in two of the worst scandals in Formula 1 and really, talking about fair play shouldn't be part of his fans.

So, most of the hate around here, is because Vettel is winning. This is a fact, just like when he wins, Newey is driving the car for him, while when the other two drama queens win, it's their superior driving talent.

Bottom line is, none of these chaps have won horse fairy cakes since Vettel burst on to the F1 scene. :smug:


Too true if a bit harsh.
Other drivers have lied (proven and unproven) , fixed races, accused racism on authorities, and even slashed people with cut glass but when it comes to Vettel - any minor transgression is not acceptable.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by nutyo »

F1yer wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:Why on earth should Vettel move over for Webber.?

Like Vettel said, Webber himself has been moaning on both sides of the fence forever, and Vettel isn't here to win a popularity contest. He's here to win races. Most people who have formed opinions about him, are either fans of Alonso, Hamilton or Webber. Webber's disobeyed orders himself, but most of his fans are sympathy seeking and pityful because that's how they want to cover his failure to beat his younger team mate for what will now be the fifth year.
Hamilton, for god's sake was caught in a lie gate scandal and has a sincere liking for Twitter.
Alonso, has been involved in two of the worst scandals in Formula 1 and really, talking about fair play shouldn't be part of his fans.

So, most of the hate around here, is because Vettel is winning. This is a fact, just like when he wins, Newey is driving the car for him, while when the other two drama queens win, it's their superior driving talent.

Bottom line is, none of these chaps have won horse fairy cakes since Vettel burst on to the F1 scene. :smug:


Too true if a bit harsh.
Other drivers have lied (proven and unproven) , fixed races, accused racism on authorities, and even slashed people with cut glass but when it comes to Vettel - any minor transgression is not acceptable.

Seriously... when was any of the other stuff seen as acceptable. None of it is acceptable. Stop trying to draw attention away from Vettel's unacceptable behaviour by pretending that other drivers get more slack. The threads on all the other stuff you mentioned were just as long as this one. All of it was unacceptable.

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